1-Dec-1998 9:40:37-GMT,3131;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA09291 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 02:40:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00165; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:21:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411272 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:21:46 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00131 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:21:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id JAA02885; hop 0; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:13:19 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:20:11 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199811301821.NAA21383@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <13923.45532.95852.146986@srahtz> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:07:40 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199811301821.NAA21383@hilbert.math.albany.edu> William F. Hammond writes: > So may I conclude that Sebastian now realizes that my comment this past > Friday was "right"? :-) you dont catch me out like that. > : and no HTML browser enforces validation, does it? > > That's also a web rule. Authors and servers should behave according > to strict rules. Clients should be very tolerant. (And indeed clients > need to be very tolerant.) XML clients will be intolerant. they must be, by the "rules of XML". invalid XML documents will be _rejected_ by eg Netscape 5 > In fact, the prevalence of invalid html gives one pause in > contemplating the future of roll-your-own xml, where documents that > are not valid will splatter across one's screen. no. definitely not. all agree that unless the XML is well-formed, it will not make it onto your screen > : by which we see why LaTeX is unpopular in production workflows. that > : translates to "10% failure" > > Hmmm... I believe that the head editor of a math journal that I know > would disagree with this last statement about LaTeX. I think that he mathematicians are, we know, a special case sebastian 1-Dec-1998 9:43:25-GMT,2672;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA09345 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 02:43:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00227; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:22:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411276 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:22:18 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00215 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:22:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id JAA02903; hop 0; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:13:50 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:20:56 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199811271514.KAA22026@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <13922.59462.279452.122152@fell.open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13923.45842.264051.790964@srahtz> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:12:50 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13922.59462.279452.122152@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > ... mostly about normalisation and concrete syntax. > > He did not mention the lack of extensibility: was this deliberate? > > It is tortuously difficult in SGML to have bothe extendabilty and > portability; it is therefore impossible to have extendability in XML > (correct?). > "tortuously difficult"? but a standard feature of two well known DTDs, TEI and Docbook. What works there works in XML versions, of course. It makes your documents less portable, if by that you mean that processing programs have to be very defensive, but its a perfectly plausible way to work. Sebastian 1-Dec-1998 9:58:29-GMT,2951;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA09550 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 02:58:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA01584; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:34:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411292 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:34:25 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01563 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:34:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id JAA03460; hop 0; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:25:47 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:33:38 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199811262254.IAA20689@bigted.maths.uq.edu.au> <13919.57916.952197.754236@fell.open.ac.uk> <13922.56551.363265.349994@fell.open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:30:22 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13922.56551.363265.349994@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > > am curious to hear what your professional bodies have done to help you > > get your 10pt CM PDF documents up. > > Put money into such things as a system that produces them and makes > them (relatively freely) acessible. And, more recently, putting a again, one would like to hear chapter and verse on this. i am by nature suspicious, and cannot offhand think of much that a `professional body' has done, unless you refer to the AMS? are they a professional body? in this capacity i classify them simply as a publisher. who makes TeX accessible? `professional bodies'? like h@ll they do. > huge (questionably so???) effort into producing character sets and > glyph sets and ... etc etc. OK, I know that some publishers are also again, apart from the AMS, whatever do you have in mind? w sebastian 1-Dec-1998 10:01:14-GMT,3561;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA09634 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 03:01:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00609; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:25:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411285 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:25:54 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00594 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:25:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zkm48-0008Af-00; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:25:52 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:25:50 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:02:42 +0100." <13922.59823.854744.337810@fell.open.ac.uk> > Timothy Murphy wrote -- > > I am just looking at a very well printed old book (Hardy & Wright, 1954), > > That would be the Monotype 5-line as used by CUP I think? > > This is what Knuth would have emulated had he been working 5000 miles > further east. > > > For one thing, they do things which would be difficult (for me) in LaTeX, > > eg Theorem 6: with a displayed formula on the same line. > > A known deficiency (but this is not the right list:-). > > I have a much more recent, but pre-computers, CUP-printed book that is > an amazing example of very tight math typography despite a large > amount of in-line math (which usually messes up any attempt at godd > typography): totally, mind-blowingly different from what we are used to > now! care to offer a title, so i can go and browse in the cup shop? (or is it out of print?) > > It should be said that Hardy & Wright is an exception for its period. does hardy & wright actually date from the 50s? it seemed very `old fashioned' (in terms of its content) to me as a 60s undergraduate. lovely book, though... > > Most of the research maths books of that vintage > > were appallingly badly "printed" (usually typed). > > As early as that??: it is something I associate with the 60s: bring back > the golf-ball! i thought that, too. but there _was_ good typesetting of maths _textbooks_ in the 60s: it was just the monographs that looked crappy. (unless they came from cup, that is: damned expensive they were...) > > TeX has been responsible for > > an immense increase in the average printing quality of maths books. > > Absolutely. But it would be really serious fun (for everyone but > sebastian:-) to try and emulate using TeX what CUP could do back then. i wonder what proportion of the active members of this list are either active (such as chris and tim) or ex- (such as me) mathematicians. apart from sebastian, i can't think of many... robin 1-Dec-1998 13:46:41-GMT,1948;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA13556 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 06:46:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA21574; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:11:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411460 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:11:32 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21557 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:11:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17949 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:11:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id IAA01899 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:11:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812011311.IAA01899@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:11:22 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Aside re: old printings To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hardy & Wright was an Oxford book, 1st edition 1938. Whitaker & Watson, Cambridge, 1st edition 1902. I haven't seen that but the reprinted 4th edition is very nicely done. -- Bill 1-Dec-1998 22:42:48-GMT,3854;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27327 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:42:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA08459; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:24:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412152 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:24:33 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08446 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:24:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.64] (sl44.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.64]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA15091 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:24:28 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13922.56551.363265.349994@fell.open.ac.uk> <199811262254.IAA20689@bigted.maths.uq.edu.au> <13919.57916.952197.754236@fell.open.ac.uk> <13922.56551.363265.349994@fell.open.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:24:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> At 09:30 +0000 1998/12/01, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >again, one would like to hear chapter and verse on this. i am by >nature suspicious, and cannot offhand think of much that a >`professional body' has done, unless you refer to the AMS? are they a >professional body? in this capacity i classify them simply as a publisher. The AMS, American Mathematical Society, is of course what its names implies, an US association of (pure) mathematicians, and its publishing and TeX activities are just side effects of its responsibilities as an association of serving the mathematicians. It is mainly an organization of "pure" mathematicians, as there are other organizations in the US for the "applied" mathematicians. The AMS has also much served as the organization for international mathematicians (as far as I know there is no truly international organization for mathematicians). There is a strong individualistic tradition among mathematicians, for example, in older times, some mathematicians avoided getting a Ph D because they felt it sufficed relying on the reputation among other mathematicians. (And this tradition can cause problems today, as outsiders do not understand this.) So the mathematicians are by tradition very unorganized, but the AMS comes as close as there can be for a professional organization representing them. >who makes TeX accessible? `professional bodies'? like h@ll they do. So, if one should take a mathematicians perspective, then TeX is already as accessible as it can be: It is about as accessible as math, and is spread in about the same way as math. :-) There is a spin-off in terms of LaTeX and other macro packages that can serve other groups as well, but I do not think that was the original intention. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 1-Dec-1998 23:27:56-GMT,1579;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA28708 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:27:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA11197; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 00:11:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411083 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 00:11:10 +0100 Received: from ROSE.IPM.AC.IR (vax.ipm.ac.ir [194.225.70.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA11170 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 00:10:49 +0100 (MET) Received: by ROSE.IPM.AC.IR (MX V4.1 VAX) id 1; Wed, 02 Dec 1998 02:38:58 +0330 Message-ID: <009D0125.5E5F61E0.1@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 02:38:55 +0330 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Roozbeh Pournader Subject: December release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Dear LaTeX3 Team, Wasn't a release programmed on December 1st? I think it is already December 2nd here. A new release will somehow stop these (those?) guys from this kind of theoretical philosophy, I think ;) --Roozbeh 2-Dec-1998 0:52:08-GMT,4022;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00839 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:52:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA05559; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:38:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412137 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:38:03 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05536 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:37:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from fenris.math.albany.edu (fenris.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.39]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23119 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:37:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mark@localhost) by fenris.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id QAA25671 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:37:43 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Message-ID: <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:37:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Mark Steinberger Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> from "Sebastian Rahtz" at Dec 1, 98 09:30:22 am Sebastian writes: > i am by nature suspicious, and cannot offhand think of much that a > `professional body' has done, unless you refer to the AMS? are they > a professional body? in this capacity i classify them simply as a > publisher. The AMS has done one important thing that seems counter to the interests of its publishing arm: bringing the postscript type 1 CM and AMS fonts into the public domain. They have also done a very nice service in their amslatex work. Admittedly, this dovetails with their publishing work in that they encourage submissions in TeX, but it also works to the benefit of others who publish from author-written TeX source (or indeed, who publish using an in-house TeX system). > who makes TeX accessible? `professional bodies'? like h@ll they do. The AMS has certainly helped, both in the items above, and by helping to make TeX popular among mathematicians (the political angle Bill mentioned). But the most important accessibility feature of TeX is books like Lamport's. Unless someone writes an analogous book for *ML (whenever a viable authoring/presentation system actually appears) or gellmu, they will not be really accessible to the authoring community. Economic issues are important here. Unless you have the kind of budget Elsevier has (and charge analogous prices), it is important to use a system easily compatible with that used by the authors. In mathematics today, that means TeX. (It's actually reasonably easy to port author-produced plain or AMS TeX to latex - much easier than conversions from TeX to *ML and back would appear to be.) Changing that would require new authoring/presenting tools, new books, and political influence similar to that used by the AMS to promote TeX. --Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Steinberger | http://math.albany.edu:8800/~mark Dept. of Math. & Stat | University at Albany | Albany, NY 12222 | Editor in Chief, New York Journal of Mathematics mark@csc.albany.edu | http://nyjm.albany.edu:8000/nyjm.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2-Dec-1998 3:48:48-GMT,3066;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04336 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:48:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA17397; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 04:29:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411168 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 04:29:53 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA17387 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 04:29:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-4.tiac.net (mail-out-4.tiac.net [199.0.65.16]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19379 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:29:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p62.tc5.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.76.63]) by mail-out-4.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA06961; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 03:29:49 GMT (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> <13922.56551.363265.349994@fell.open.ac.uk> <199811262254.IAA20689@bigted.maths.uq.edu.au> <13919.57916.952197.754236@fell.open.ac.uk> <13922.56551.363265.349994@fell.open.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981201222722.01ddad30@pop.tiac.net> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:29:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 09:30 +0000 1998/12/01, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>again, one would like to hear chapter and verse on this. i am by >>nature suspicious, and cannot offhand think of much that a >>`professional body' has done, unless you refer to the AMS? are they a There is also SIAM. See for example: > The PostScript Type 1 implementation of the Computer Modern and AMSFonts > produced by and previously distributed by Blue Sky Research and Y&Y, Inc., > are now freely available for general use. This has been accomplished through > the cooperation of a consortium of scientific publishers with > Blue Sky Research and Y&Y. Members of this consortium include: > Elsevier Science > IBM Corporation > Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics (SIAM) > Springer-Verlag > American Mathematical Society (AMS) > ... 2-Dec-1998 9:40:13-GMT,2005;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA10945 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 02:39:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA07030; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:11:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412286 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:11:57 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA07000 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:11:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zl8JX-0007py-00; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:11:15 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:11:12 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: December release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Dec 1998 02:38:55 +0330." <009D0125.5E5F61E0.1@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> > Wasn't a release programmed on December 1st? I think it is already > December 2nd here. A new release will somehow stop these (those?) guys > from this kind of theoretical philosophy, I think ;) the documentation can be read to imply that releases are _at most_ every six months. do we actually _require_ a release? -- there hasn't been much in the bugs database... robin 2-Dec-1998 11:17:18-GMT,3356;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA12447 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 04:16:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA15186; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:42:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412380 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:42:32 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15173 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:42:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA11888; hop 0; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:33:39 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:39:26 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <13925.3874.335434.461448@srahtz> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:57:54 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> Mark Steinberger writes: > The AMS has done one important thing that seems counter to the > interests of its publishing arm: bringing the postscript type 1 CM and > AMS fonts into the public domain. I don't think they are in the public domain, if I may quibble :-} > They have also done a very nice service in their amslatex > work. oh sure, the AMS has done an exceptional amount for TeX. they just look like an exception to me. > conversions from TeX to *ML and back would appear to be.) Changing > that would require new authoring/presenting tools, new books, and > political influence similar to that used by the AMS to promote TeX. > I agree, all the way, in so far as *mathematics* is concerned. I don't know what you are going to do, as at present you seem to be stuck in the corner with wet paint all around you. MathML offers you a *possible* way out, albeit pretty unattractive from where you are sitting, but can you really afford to sit tight? Yes, possibly you can for a while. But if the usage of TeX shrinks to the maths community, you'll lose some of the commercial systems (Y&Y cant make a living from just mathematicians, can it?), a lot of the developer community and you'll lose things like CTAN; do you have the resources to maintain this just from within maths? sebastian 2-Dec-1998 11:44:34-GMT,3695;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA12868 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 04:44:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18115; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:16:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412399 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:16:03 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18098 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:16:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.61] (sl08.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.28]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14131 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:15:51 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:16:01 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13925.3874.335434.461448@srahtz> At 09:57 +0000 1998/12/02, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >Mark Steinberger writes: > > The AMS has done one important thing that seems counter to the > > interests of its publishing arm: bringing the postscript type 1 CM and > > AMS fonts into the public domain. >I don't think they are in the public domain, if I may quibble :-} I recall they are: BlueSky (who sells the MacOS TeX program Textures) originally developed these commercially, as AMS felt they did could not afford that. Later these were released for free use by a joint agreement between BlueSky and AMS. >I agree, all the way, in so far as *mathematics* is concerned. I don't >know what you are going to do, as at present you seem to be stuck in >the corner with wet paint all around you. MathML offers you a >*possible* way out, albeit pretty unattractive from where you are >sitting, but can you really afford to sit tight? Yes, possibly you can >for a while. But if the usage of TeX shrinks to the maths community, >you'll lose some of the commercial systems (Y&Y cant make a living from just >mathematicians, can it?), a lot of the developer community and you'll >lose things like CTAN; do you have the resources to maintain this just >from within maths? I think the use of TeX is expanding: It is not only the standard in math, but also pretty much at the XXX archive, and in many quarters of computer science. The *ML movements are currently pretty orthogonal to what TeX can offer: The *ML offer fast, simple typesetting, suitable for WWW and simpler types of printing. Eventually one would expect a movement combining that with the TeX ability to do complex math typesetting. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 2-Dec-1998 11:48:52-GMT,2223;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA12946 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 04:48:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18519; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:21:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412411 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:21:39 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18480 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:21:23 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id LAA14116; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:20:46 GMT References: <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199812021120.LAA14116@nag.co.uk> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:20:46 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: (message from Hans Aberg on Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:16:01 +0100) > Later these were released for free use by a joint agreement > between BlueSky and AMS. Yes but they are not public domain. Free use does not imply public domain. For instance you can use latex for free, but that is not public domain either. > The *ML offer fast, simple typesetting, suitable for WWW and simpler types > of printing. So you are telling Sebastian that the entire range of his company's publications only ever use `simple typesetting, suitable for WWW' ? David 2-Dec-1998 12:00:20-GMT,3793;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA13121 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 05:00:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18711; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:23:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412415 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:23:54 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18701 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:23:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zlANt-000306-00; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:23:53 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:23:51 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:16:01 +0100." hans aberg wrote: > At 09:57 +0000 1998/12/02, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >Mark Steinberger writes: > > > The AMS has done one important thing that seems counter to the > > > interests of its publishing arm: bringing the postscript type 1 CM and > > > AMS fonts into the public domain. > >I don't think they are in the public domain, if I may quibble :-} > > I recall they are: BlueSky (who sells the MacOS TeX program Textures) > originally developed these commercially, as AMS felt they did could not > afford that. Later these were released for free use by a joint agreement > between BlueSky and AMS. there were three partners to the development -- the third being y&y (as you will no doubt be told); all three parties actually did (or funded) development work, so all three should be listed. as i'm sure y&y contributors to this list will tell you. > >I agree, all the way, in so far as *mathematics* is concerned. I don't > >know what you are going to do, as at present you seem to be stuck in > >the corner with wet paint all around you. MathML offers you a > >*possible* way out, albeit pretty unattractive from where you are > >sitting, but can you really afford to sit tight? Yes, possibly you can > >for a while. But if the usage of TeX shrinks to the maths community, > >you'll lose some of the commercial systems (Y&Y cant make a living from just > >mathematicians, can it?), a lot of the developer community and you'll > >lose things like CTAN; do you have the resources to maintain this just > >from within maths? > > I think the use of TeX is expanding: It is not only the standard in math, > but also pretty much at the XXX archive, and in many quarters of computer > science. i see no actual sign that use of tex is expanding. i even see students around here using word for theoretical computer science (which is maths that somehow doesn't want to speak its name ;-)... > The *ML movements are currently pretty orthogonal to what TeX can offer: > The *ML offer fast, simple typesetting, suitable for WWW and simpler types > of printing. you're trolling, aren't you? you're trying to cause apoplexy in sebastian, i can tell... robin 2-Dec-1998 12:27:37-GMT,3299;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA13566 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 05:27:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA21451; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:59:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412439 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:59:57 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21344 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:58:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.42] (sl22.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.42]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17704 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:58:14 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: Your message of "Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:16:01 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:58:12 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 11:23 +0000 1998/12/02, Robin Fairbairns wrote: >> I think the use of TeX is expanding: It is not only the standard in math, >> but also pretty much at the XXX archive, and in many quarters of computer >> science. > >i see no actual sign that use of tex is expanding. i even see >students around here using word for theoretical computer science >(which is maths that somehow doesn't want to speak its name ;-)... I guess you only see what is expanding the fastest. (I do not see that students have a great need for TeX either -- did they ever have that in the past?) Nevertheless, I do not see that those uses of TeX will be replaced very quickly by something *ML that cannot do the job. >> The *ML movements are currently pretty orthogonal to what TeX can offer: >> The *ML offer fast, simple typesetting, suitable for WWW and simpler types >> of printing. > >you're trolling, aren't you? you're trying to cause apoplexy in >sebastian, i can tell... He is causing apoplexy within himself most of the time, I think, if that's what you mean. :-) Otherwise, it must be those claiming that a *ML system has the capacity of providing advanced typesetting which does not have the capacity of conveniently providing the authoring and typesetting that TeX has, must be those that are trolling. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 2-Dec-1998 12:35:59-GMT,3032;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA13692 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 05:35:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA21303; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:58:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412431 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:58:29 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21289 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:58:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.42] (sl22.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.42]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17698 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:58:10 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: (message from Hans Aberg on Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:16:01 +0100) <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:46:21 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812021120.LAA14116@nag.co.uk> At 11:20 +0000 1998/12/02, David Carlisle wrote: >Yes but they are not public domain. Free use does not imply public >domain. For instance you can use latex for free, but that is not public >domain either. The wording "public domain" is not a legal one, and is not even a well defined term. Thus, one should always indicate ones software and indicate its uses, and not use the term "public domain". >> The *ML offer fast, simple typesetting, suitable for WWW and simpler types >> of printing. > >So you are telling Sebastian that the entire range of his company's >publications only ever use `simple typesetting, suitable for WWW' ? You are better off asking Sebastian what his company is doing. :-) But it's clear that no *ML can currently do the job of math typesetting in either paper or WWW media. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 2-Dec-1998 12:50:03-GMT,2583;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA13927 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 05:49:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA23209; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:19:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412474 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:19:09 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23199 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:19:07 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id MAA14258; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:18:46 GMT References: (message from Hans Aberg on Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:16:01 +0100) <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199812021218.MAA14258@nag.co.uk> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:18:46 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: (message from Hans Aberg on Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:46:21 +0100) > The wording "public domain" is not a legal one, and is not even a well > defined term. I think you will find that it is defined in some jurisdictions, but that is by the way. > But it's clear that no *ML can currently do the job of math typesetting in > either paper or WWW media. That is not clear at all. We are dicussing (mainly) author markup. Once can clearly get tex quality (not least, by using tex) out of a document that is marked up in XML. It is true, that especially for mathematics, there is not (yet?) a realistic authoring environment that produces mathematics marked up to an XML dtd. That is a big problem, but it is a separate problem. David 2-Dec-1998 12:52:58-GMT,2852;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA13981 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 05:52:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA23080; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:18:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412466 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:17:59 +0100 Received: from gate.eds.de (gate.eds.de [205.191.194.5]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA23047 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:17:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from nsru2.tse.de.eds.com by gate.eds.de with SMTP id AA03657 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:17:40 GMT Received: from n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com (n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com [206.122.103.15]) by nsru2.tse.de.eds.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA10349 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:17:39 GMT Received: by n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA247820984; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:16:24 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <009D0125.5E5F61E0.1@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13925.12183.663833.726347@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:16:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: December release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Robin writes: > > Wasn't a release programmed on December 1st? I think it is already > > December 2nd here. A new release will somehow stop these (those?) guys > > from this kind of theoretical philosophy, I think ;) > > the documentation can be read to imply that releases are _at most_ > every six months. > > do we actually _require_ a release? -- there hasn't been much in the > bugs database... i don't expect the release to be around before late jan. the latex2e release dates have been always just nominal dates --- i think we never made it on time and this time we will be pretty late. and yes there will be a release (though without many changes) but there are still a few things to sort out (and no time for it) frank 2-Dec-1998 12:54:00-GMT,2823;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA14004 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 05:53:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA23093; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:18:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412470 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:18:08 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA23044 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:17:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zlBE5-0002qP-00; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:17:49 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:17:48 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:58:12 +0100." > At 11:23 +0000 1998/12/02, Robin Fairbairns wrote: > >> I think the use of TeX is expanding: It is not only the standard in math, > >> but also pretty much at the XXX archive, and in many quarters of computer > >> science. > > > >i see no actual sign that use of tex is expanding. i even see > >students around here using word for theoretical computer science > >(which is maths that somehow doesn't want to speak its name ;-)... > > I guess you only see what is expanding the fastest. (I do not see that > students have a great need for TeX either -- did they ever have that in the > past?) Nevertheless, I do not see that those uses of TeX will be replaced > very quickly by something *ML that cannot do the job. the majority of phd students here still do their dissertations in latex (characteristically awful latex, but there you are...). a goodly proportion of undergraduates do final year project dissertations that way, too. (although they often produce better latex since they don't have as much time to invent awful habits.) i see no reason why a *ml "that can't do the job" would be inhibited from encroaching. not doing the job hasn't stopped word, after all... robin 2-Dec-1998 13:30:01-GMT,3417;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14603 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 06:29:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA26536; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:58:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412511 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:58:22 +0100 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26521 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:58:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from MAUI (maui.ai.mit.edu [128.52.37.105]) by life.ai.mit.edu (8.9.1/AI2.7/ai.master.life:2.2) with SMTP id HAA18389; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:58:15 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13925.3874.335434.461448@srahtz> <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981202075228.00ad89b0@tiac.net> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:57:42 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: CM and AMS fonts in `PS' Type 1 format To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 12:16 1998-12-02 +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: >At 09:57 +0000 1998/12/02, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>Mark Steinberger writes: >> > The AMS has done one important thing that seems counter to the >> > interests of its publishing arm: bringing the postscript type 1 CM and >> > AMS fonts into the public domain. >>I don't think they are in the public domain, if I may quibble :-} >I recall they are: BlueSky (who sells the MacOS TeX program Textures) >originally developed these commercially, as AMS felt they did could not >afford that. I am not sure whether AMS even considered it at the time (1988-1992). It was not the `next obvious thing to do'. In fact, while it may be hard to imagine now, there was a lot of resistance to PS, and even more resistance to Type 1 fonts. >Later these were released for free use by a joint agreement >between BlueSky and AMS. To be more precise, from http://www.ams.org/index/tex/type1-cm-fonts.html > The PostScript Type 1 implementation of the Computer Modern and AMSFonts produced > by and previously distributed by Blue Sky Research and Y&Y, Inc., are now freely available > for general use. This has been accomplished through the cooperation of a consortium of > scientific publishers with Blue Sky Research and Y&Y. Members of this consortium include: > Elsevier Science > IBM Corporation > Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics (SIAM) > Springer-Verlag > American Mathematical Society (AMS) > ... Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com 2-Dec-1998 13:34:45-GMT,3434;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14669 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 06:34:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA27281; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:05:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412526 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:05:36 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27256 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:05:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.42] (sl67.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.93]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23932 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:05:08 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: (message from Hans Aberg on Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:46:21 +0100) (message from Hans Aberg on Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:16:01 +0100) <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:05:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812021218.MAA14258@nag.co.uk> At 12:18 +0000 1998/12/02, David Carlisle wrote: >> The wording "public domain" is not a legal one, and is not even a well >> defined term. >I think you will find that it is defined in some jurisdictions, but that >is by the way. Doubt it. >> But it's clear that no *ML can currently do the job of math typesetting in >> either paper or WWW media. > >That is not clear at all. We are dicussing (mainly) author markup. Once >can clearly get tex quality (not least, by using tex) out of a document >that is marked up in XML. It is true, that especially for mathematics, >there is not (yet?) a realistic authoring environment that produces >mathematics marked up to an XML dtd. That is a big problem, but it is a >separate problem. Well, if the system does currently not exist, currently it can't do the job. Otherwise, in the context of math authoring, it is clear that merely author markup will be too cumbersome. The *ML is a nice movement though; I wonder what will come next: Perhaps a language also suitable for authoring. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 2-Dec-1998 13:40:30-GMT,3057;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14784 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 06:40:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA27259; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:05:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412522 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:05:22 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27232 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:05:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.42] (sl67.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.93]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23944 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:05:12 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: Your message of "Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:58:12 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:03:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 12:17 +0000 1998/12/02, Robin Fairbairns wrote: >the majority of phd students here still do their dissertations in >latex (characteristically awful latex, but there you are...). > >a goodly proportion of undergraduates do final year project >dissertations that way, too. (although they often produce better >latex since they don't have as much time to invent awful habits.) > >i see no reason why a *ml "that can't do the job" would be inhibited >from encroaching. not doing the job hasn't stopped word, after all... Your description seems to indicate what I think is the case, TeX/LaTeX is used when one gets serious in the sense that one has this manuscript in which the details must come out right. WYSIWYG does then normally not suffice, at least not with the math details, so TeX comes into place. I think it is well-known by now, that all these mass-consumer movements, which the *ML currently represents, usually lacks crucial quality. Eventually such quality might built in, of course. But until then, there will be a need for TeX/LaTeX. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 2-Dec-1998 14:10:50-GMT,2434;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA15315 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:10:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA01210; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:43:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412564 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:43:05 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01192 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:43:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22688; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:42:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id IAA14004; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:42:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812021342.IAA14004@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:42:54 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Lovell's TeXML To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Sebastian mentioned this last week. The present url is a bit closer. You may need to enable javascript in order to grab the package. Even without using the two java applications one may gain insight about *ml processing for a print stream that ends with TeX from the small demos that are enclosed. HTML is another formatted output. This design is almost completely orthogonal to that which may be seen in my gellmu demos. Doug Lovell's TeXML at IBM TeXML is an XML vocabulary for describing TeX syntax. One writes an XSL style sheet to translate an XML into TeXML. A small, simple program then readily translates TeXML to TeX. (A November, 1998 release.) http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/formula/texml -- Bill 2-Dec-1998 14:23:58-GMT,3084;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA15559 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:23:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA02645; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:55:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412579 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:55:38 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02616 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:55:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id NAA19206; hop 0; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:47:03 GMT Received: from screavie.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:54:40 +0000 Received: from lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk (lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.7]) by screavie.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19082 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:53:52 GMT Received: (from srahtz@localhost) by lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA17023; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:54:01 GMT References: <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> <199812021218.MAA14258@nag.co.uk> Message-ID: <199812021354.NAA17023@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:54:01 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812021218.MAA14258@nag.co.uk> David Carlisle writes: > that is marked up in XML. It is true, that especially for mathematics, > there is not (yet?) a realistic authoring environment that produces > mathematics marked up to an XML dtd. i know it won't suit the high-falutin' 20th century mathematicians amongst us, but for the great unwashed MathType is perfectly plausible. indeed returning to Hans: >The *ML movements are currently pretty orthogonal to what TeX can offer: >The *ML offer fast, simple typesetting, suitable for WWW and simpler types > of printing. its a shame we don't have a competition for "the most inaccurate and ill-informed remarks made on latex-l each month". sebastian "low blood pressure" rahtz 2-Dec-1998 14:46:21-GMT,2192;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA15934 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:45:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04724; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:17:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412590 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:17:35 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04709 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:17:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zlD5x-0004Ks-00; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:17:33 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:17:31 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:54:01 GMT." <199812021354.NAA17023@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> > i know it won't suit the high-falutin' 20th century mathematicians > amongst us, but for the great unwashed MathType is perfectly > plausible. indeed talking of which, have you heard from them again? > its a shame we don't have a competition for "the most inaccurate and > ill-informed remarks made on latex-l each month". aberg's odd ... in a sort of r&r-ish way, don't you think? sometimes he talks near-sense, then he rushes off and rants and raves and flies in the face of everyone else's reality. am i a clinical psychiatrist or what? r 2-Dec-1998 16:42:15-GMT,2644;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19162 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:42:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15711; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:16:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412660 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:16:17 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15692 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:16:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04035 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id LAA19326 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:16:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812021616.LAA19326@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:16:08 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hans Aberg writes: : Your description seems to indicate what I think is the case, TeX/LaTeX is : used when one gets serious in the sense that one has this manuscript in : which the details must come out right. WYSIWYG does then normally not : suffice, at least not with the math details, so TeX comes into place. These fussy things can, in fact, almost always be handled well with *correct* LaTeX, as documented in Lamport's book. The "Companion" is for added authoring convenience. : I think it is well-known by now, that all these mass-consumer movements, : which the *ML currently represents, usually lacks crucial quality. : Eventually such quality might built in, of course. Only because very few elitist mathematicians have been involved (up to now). : But until then, there will be a need for TeX/LaTeX. And beyond then, as well! -- Bill 2-Dec-1998 16:45:08-GMT,1900;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19252 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:45:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15310; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:11:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412653 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:11:16 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15290 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:11:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zlErw-0005Xp-00; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:11:12 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:11:11 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:54:01 GMT." <199812021354.NAA17023@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> it appears that an earlier response of mine, comparing hans aberg to rebecca and rowland (who also used to make what i considered unreasonable attacks on sebastian) went to the list. this was, i need hardly say, a mistake on my part, and i apologise. robin 2-Dec-1998 17:18:23-GMT,2610;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20198 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:18:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA18422; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:46:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412671 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:46:24 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18397 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:46:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id QAA27227; hop 0; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:37:54 GMT Received: from screavie.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:45:04 +0000 Received: from lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk (lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.7]) by screavie.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22850 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:44:21 GMT Received: (from srahtz@localhost) by lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA17791; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:44:28 GMT References: <199812021616.LAA19326@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199812021644.QAA17791@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:44:28 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812021616.LAA19326@hilbert.math.albany.edu> William F. Hammond writes: > : I think it is well-known by now, that all these mass-consumer movements, > : which the *ML currently represents, usually lacks crucial quality. gosh. we old-time SGML-heads are stunned to hear that we are "mass-consumer". I never noticed. > : Eventually such quality might built in, of course. how do you "build quality" into a meta language for describing markup? sebastian 2-Dec-1998 17:41:40-GMT,2586;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20692 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:35:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA20282; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:07:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412686 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:07:17 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20256 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:07:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.58] (sl38.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.58]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18590 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:07:02 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <199812021218.MAA14258@nag.co.uk> <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> <199812021218.MAA14258@nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:07:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812021354.NAA17023@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> At 13:54 +0000 1998/12/02, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >returning to Hans: > > >The *ML movements are currently pretty orthogonal to what TeX can offer: > >The *ML offer fast, simple typesetting, suitable for WWW and simpler types > > of printing. > >its a shame we don't have a competition for "the most inaccurate and >ill-informed remarks made on latex-l each month". Please explain. :-) Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 2-Dec-1998 18:10:25-GMT,2472;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21968 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:10:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA24691; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412719 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:49 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24672 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.58] (sl49.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.69]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21758 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:13 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: Your message of "Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:54:01 GMT." <199812021354.NAA17023@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:09:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 14:17 +0000 1998/12/02, Robin Fairbairns wrote: >> its a shame we don't have a competition for "the most inaccurate and >> ill-informed remarks made on latex-l each month". > >aberg's odd ... in a sort of r&r-ish way, don't you think? sometimes >he talks near-sense, then he rushes off and rants and raves and flies >in the face of everyone else's reality. am i a clinical psychiatrist >or what? I believe this was a comment from Sebastian and not me. :-) Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 2-Dec-1998 18:11:12-GMT,2618;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21983 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:10:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA24628; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412711 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:26 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24584 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.58] (sl49.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.69]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21765 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:17 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <199812021616.LAA19326@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <199812021616.LAA19326@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:29 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812021644.QAA17791@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> At 16:44 +0000 1998/12/02, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >William F. Hammond writes: > > : I think it is well-known by now, that all these mass-consumer movements, > > : which the *ML currently represents, usually lacks crucial quality. >gosh. we old-time SGML-heads are stunned to hear that we are >"mass-consumer". I never noticed. > > > : Eventually such quality might built in, of course. >how do you "build quality" into a meta language for describing markup? I believe I was the one who wrote that and not William F. Hammond. Do you want me to reply, or can you figure out the answers on your own? :-) Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 2-Dec-1998 18:12:37-GMT,2456;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA22023 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:12:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA24667; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412715 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:38 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24615 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.58] (sl49.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.69]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21762 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:45:15 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: Your message of "Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:54:01 GMT." <199812021354.NAA17023@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:28:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 16:11 +0000 1998/12/02, Robin Fairbairns wrote: >it appears that an earlier response of mine, comparing hans aberg to >rebecca and rowland (who also used to make what i considered >unreasonable attacks on sebastian) went to the list. > >this was, i need hardly say, a mistake on my part, and i apologise. Was the mistake that the message was sent to this list or that you compared me to those people? By the way, who are rebecca and rowland? Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 2-Dec-1998 19:10:13-GMT,2780;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23610 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:09:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA00015; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:43:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412764 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:43:31 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00004 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:43:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.58] (sl79.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.105]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25423 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:43:22 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:43:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812021616.LAA19326@hilbert.math.albany.edu> At 11:16 -0500 1998/12/02, William F. Hammond wrote: >: I think it is well-known by now, that all these mass-consumer movements, >: which the *ML currently represents, usually lacks crucial quality. >: Eventually such quality might built in, of course. > >Only because very few elitist mathematicians have been involved (up to >now). > >: But until then, there will be a need for TeX/LaTeX. > >And beyond then, as well! I think that when at the point when the various *ML movements have moved so far that they have the capacity of generating a manuscript with all the information that a mathematician want, then one would still need a NL (notational language) with capacity of accepting less corny syntaxes than the SGML stuff. But then there is no point in using TeX/LaTeX as everything that can be done in those languages can be done more conveniently and accurately in this NL. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 2-Dec-1998 20:39:48-GMT,4644;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26064 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:39:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA05135; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:08:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412784 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:08:49 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05121 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:08:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22320 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:08:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id PAA21912 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:08:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812022008.PAA21912@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:08:42 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hans Aberg: : At 11:16 -0500 1998/12/02, William F. Hammond wrote: : >: I think it is well-known by now, that all these mass-consumer movements, : >: which the *ML currently represents, usually lacks crucial quality. : >: Eventually such quality might built in, of course. : > : >Only because very few elitist mathematicians have been involved (up to : >now). : > : >: But until then, there will be a need for TeX/LaTeX. : > : >And beyond then, as well! : : I think that when at the point when the various *ML movements have moved so : far that they have the capacity of generating a manuscript with all the : information that a mathematician want, then one would still need a NL : (notational language) with capacity of accepting less corny syntaxes than : the SGML stuff. When Hans says "SGML stuff", I assume that he is referring specifically to MathML, a W3C recommendation. : But then there is no point in using TeX/LaTeX as everything that can be : done in those languages can be done more conveniently and accurately in : this NL. The point of my drafty draft on notation http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/gellmu/notation [please read and comment] is that the legacy of 200 years of typeset mathematical notation is not as ambiguous as some imagine. The main ingredient that is missing is the ability of computer programs to understand what the notation means. On the other hand, mathematicians usually do understand. Why? My point is that (1) a mathematician reads the accompanying text which explains the meaning of symbols and (2) a mathematician understands how to parse complicated expressions. So one needs to formalize tex math zones under a regime of mathexpr's, something analogous to regexp's, and then formalize a protocol for parsing standard tex math zones. The only new information that a tex-like document then needs for this to work is a formal type declaration in a context-specific family of types. That is, for authoring, a single declaration for each variable in the document preamble. Math zones may still be more or less traditional. Even so, good technical typists have been parsing handwritten professor notation for years without understanding content. Analogously there is, I believe, a logic to the parsing of math zones that can be made robotic within reason if author's take a little care. Many authors will balk at providing type information, which, in the end, will be mainly of use for "smart documents". In that case one would want to fall back to the analogue of good technical typing. Comment: for authoring I don't think that one should assume MathML to be the only output format. Other things may come along, and authors will not want to repair old documents. I won't be too eager to generate MathML until I see that my audience has it. Authors who do not wish to declare symbols will still be included. -- Bill 2-Dec-1998 21:51:03-GMT,5541;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27795 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:45:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA07582; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:52:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412797 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:51:59 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07568 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:51:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.22] (sl02.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.22]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04036 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:51:54 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:50:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812022008.PAA21912@hilbert.math.albany.edu> At 15:08 -0500 1998/12/02, William F. Hammond wrote: >: I think that when at the point when the various *ML movements have moved so >: far that they have the capacity of generating a manuscript with all the >: information that a mathematician want, then one would still need a NL >: (notational language) with capacity of accepting less corny syntaxes than >: the SGML stuff. > >When Hans says "SGML stuff", I assume that he is referring specifically >to MathML, a W3C recommendation. I do not think that MathML itself will have that capacity, so one needs to add OpenMath and perhaps some other such movements: It's *ML, SGML stuff, but not only SGML itself, which somebody remarked is just a framework for markup type of languages. >The point of my drafty draft on notation > > http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/gellmu/notation [please read and comment] > >is that the legacy of 200 years of typeset mathematical notation is >not as ambiguous as some imagine. The main ingredient that is missing >is the ability of computer programs to understand what the notation >means. On the other hand, mathematicians usually do understand. > >Why? My point is that (1) a mathematician reads the accompanying text >which explains the meaning of symbols and (2) a mathematician understands >how to parse complicated expressions. This is what I mean too: Computer programs have some capacity to understand what the expressions means, but the piece that each computer program understands differ from what the other computer programs understand. For example, a computer algebra program understands some algebraic aspect of a formula, a typesetting or WWW browser understands how to produce renderings. But the mathematician understand how to integrate all those aspects. Therefore, the ideal manuscript should contain that information, not just one aspect. The importance if this aspect will increase when the reuse of the information in the manuscripts increase: For example, a reader might want to be able to copy a formula and paste it into a computer algebra program. The problem with the SGML stuff is that it restricts the syntax, so it is difficult to combine different meanings in a single syntax, the way it is done in mathematics. >So one needs to formalize tex math zones under a regime of mathexpr's, >something analogous to regexp's, and then formalize a protocol for >parsing standard tex math zones. > >The only new information that a tex-like document then needs for this >to work is a formal type declaration in a context-specific family of >types. That is, for authoring, a single declaration for each variable >in the document preamble. Math zones may still be more or less >traditional. You need more than that: You need the ability to parse expressions. TeX does not have that capacity. It means that there is no way for the program to verify that the input syntax is correct. Otherwise, I think that the observation is correct that one cannot hope for a single syntax to cover all the possible uses: So one needs being able to create syntactic environments, which may vary with the context or intention of the author. I think this is how humans read and create manuscripts, and therefore am authoring language must support it. >Many authors will balk at providing type information, which, in the >end, will be mainly of use for "smart documents". In that case one >would want to fall back to the analogue of good technical typing. The idea is that the author at any point should only provide as exactly possible what corresponds to his or her intent. The rest should be provided by a style, or graphical fine-tuning info. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 3-Dec-1998 2:49:54-GMT,2730;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05931 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:49:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10541; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:54:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412835 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:54:01 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10531 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:53:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.22] (sl112.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.138]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08083 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:53:44 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:53:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812022008.PAA21912@hilbert.math.albany.edu> At 15:08 -0500 1998/12/02, William F. Hammond wrote: >The point of my drafty draft on notation > > http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/gellmu/notation [please read and comment] On your idea to use types to improve on syntax checks, this is of course used in languages such as Haskell . This is of course way beyond the capacity of TeX. But one should not expect that such typed objects should be able to capture the math semantics, thereby resolving the problem: In computer languages, typing is still merely a tool to help producing the code, but it does not directly affect the runtime code. If one should go deeper, one should design runtime object whose behavior is affected by the type information. -- This is a question I interest myself in my programming. But the time is not right now to report on that. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 3-Dec-1998 19:30:05-GMT,3151;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA28372 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:29:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA26762; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:46:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411508 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:46:05 +0100 Received: from ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26749 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:46:02 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:43:44 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:42:27 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:41:48 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN2 in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:42:33 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<13926.55732.516725.882826@fell.] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: What is (... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: <13922.59823.854744.337810@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13926.55732.516725.882826@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:42:33 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Robin Fairbairns wrote -- > care to offer a title, so i can go and browse in the cup shop? (or is > it out of print?) DJH Garling --- A course in Galois Theory. It may be, but ben does have friemds in the rioght places. > > > > It should be said that Hardy & Wright is an exception for its period. Never got on with it myself in them far off days (nor with Wittaker and Watson) ... now there is a formidable foursome to stand up to S's blandishments. > i wonder what proportion of the active members of this list are either > active (such as chris and tim) or ex- (such as me) mathematicians. > apart from sebastian, i can't think of many... > Quite a lot, I think (if one interprets mathematician and ex- widely enough:-) and even more are interested in high-qaulity techinical typesetting. chris 4-Dec-1998 6:33:16-GMT,3584;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA13274 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:33:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA25174; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:16:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411234 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:16:43 +0100 Received: from ixgate01.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate01.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.1]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA25155 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:16:39 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:16:23 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:44:45 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:44:08 +0100 X400-Received: by mta open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:44:07 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN2 in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:46:05 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<13922.58540.267631.962966@fell.] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: What is (... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: <199811262254.IAA20689@bigted.maths.uq.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13922.58540.267631.962966@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:46:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199811262254.IAA20689@bigted.maths.uq.edu.au> > we will still have the problem of interactions between different macro > (or whatever they may be called) definitions. Or will we? Sebastian, in his less anarchic moments, and The XML Brigade, do not want You to have such nasty things as macros to make the language extensible; at least that is my understanding. [Noisy aside: no author-macros would make producing LaTeX3 infinitely simpler too: we can see ways around that (but not sensible ones using only the current TeX).] > And doing any sort of extensive writing in mathematics *without* some > sort of macro facility is just too awful to contemplate. I completely agree, and I do not think that editors would like it either. So I hate to say it yet again, but research maths notation *is* different from natural languages (and, he added hastily, even more different from formal languages, such as mathenmatica, maple etc provide). I am not at all against XML/MathML as a useful lanaguage, but it must fit into authoring/editing systems for all types of maths that fully supports all the different types of people who need to use them. chris 4-Dec-1998 11:05:17-GMT,3601;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA18782 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 04:05:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA13526; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:45:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411357 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:45:51 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13516 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:45:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA22381; hop 0; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:37:03 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:43:06 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199811262254.IAA20689@bigted.maths.uq.edu.au> <13922.58540.267631.962966@fell.open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13927.44874.516884.847678@srahtz> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:45:46 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13922.58540.267631.962966@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > I completely agree, and I do not think that editors would like it > either. So I hate to say it yet again, but research maths notation > *is* different from natural languages (and, he added hastily, even ... > I am not at all against XML/MathML as a useful lanaguage, but it must > fit into authoring/editing systems for all types of maths that fully > supports all the different types of people who need to use them. > my (admittedly naive) view is that presentation MathML is like plain TeX maths, ie it provides building blocks for putting practically any math on the page. real users put a layer on top (macros), to let them write commands which have semantic meaning for them. if you accept this, then the XML/MathML world is no different. make up a new language, using XML syntax, to say whatever you want xy (forget the verbose syntax for now), and then provide the XSL transformation script which maps that to presentational MathML. within your own research group, write software which groks directly. you lose the tight coupling of markup and presentation that TeX provides, but you gain a language considerably more amenable to computer processing, a cleaner mapping layer, and access to the software the rest of the world will be using. your friend TeX will still be there underneath, formatting away for you. as i say, i may be being naive, but i think the Third Way has advantages, and i dont see how it really constrains Chris' research maths sebastian 4-Dec-1998 14:22:45-GMT,4717;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA22407 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:22:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA00672; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:57:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411449 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:57:25 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00648 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:57:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA02253 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id IAA12575 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:56:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812041356.IAA12575@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:56:05 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Sebastian Rahtz writes: : my (admittedly naive) view is that presentation MathML is like plain : TeX maths, ie it provides building blocks for putting practically any : math on the page. real users put a layer on top (macros), to let them : write commands which have semantic meaning for them. (But nobody plans to author directly in MathML.) : if you accept this, then the XML/MathML world is no different. make up : a new language, using XML syntax, to say whatever you want : xy : (forget the verbose syntax for now), and then provide the XSL : transformation script which maps that to presentational MathML. within : your own research group, write software which groks directly. : : you lose the tight coupling of markup and presentation that TeX : provides, but you gain a language considerably more amenable to : computer processing, a cleaner mapping layer, and access to the : software the rest of the world will be using. your friend TeX will : still be there underneath, formatting away for you. Amen. Of course, you write not only the software that processes but also a dtd (document type definition) that serves in some sense as an outline for the software logic. : as i say, i may be being naive, but i think the Third Way has : advantages, and i dont see how it really constrains Chris' research : maths I, too, see no constraint. Keep in mind, that xml (if you insist) goes far, far beyond html. It goes as far as you want to take it. And the author of the dtd containing and the processing code that goes with it (which *can be* merely config code for existing free frameworks) makes the decision how far. About macros: your whole point of view here changes when you realize what you could be authoring. Not only might you want to think about the paper target as an end format, but you also might want to think about the www target, the cataloging target, the making of provision for clipping segments into sophisticated processors (e.g., if MathML is a target), and who knows what else ultimately. In writing for multiple presentation formats it is highly desirable to avoid target-conscious bifurcation (such as one sees occasionally in Texinfo). The handling of different target presentation formats is done by processors. Before any serious processing is done your macros need to be fully expanded. (We don't see that expansion with our eyes when using TeX-based systems.) I don't want to assume that MathML is the only math-capable xml presentation format. And one might want to think very carefully about exactly when, along the road, "\alpha" (oops, in xml I mean "") should be resolved to unicode (which is what happens if I write "α". For example, for processing toward html if I perceive that my audience consists mostly of folk who don't bother to grab every possible font, then I might configure my processor to write "alpha". -- Bill 4-Dec-1998 14:23:46-GMT,2033;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA22421 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:23:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA00890; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:00:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411454 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:00:03 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00866 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:00:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA02468 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id IAA12584 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:59:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812041359.IAA12584@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:59:23 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Sebastian Rahtz writes: : . . . your friend TeX will : still be there underneath, formatting away for you. I'm not clear about what this means. Is it more than print only? Does it refer to Eitan Gurari's "tex4ht"? -- Bill 4-Dec-1998 14:43:30-GMT,2239;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA22756 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:38:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA02031; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:12:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411466 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:12:28 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA02021 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:12:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zlvy5-0004IW-00; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:12:25 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:12:24 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Dec 1998 08:59:23 EST." <199812041359.IAA12584@hilbert.math.albany.edu> > Sebastian Rahtz writes: > : . . . your friend TeX will > : still be there underneath, formatting away for you. > > I'm not clear about what this means. Is it more than print only? > Does it refer to Eitan Gurari's "tex4ht"? no, tex4ht goes the other way, making a reasonable stab at producing html (or xml or whatever) from tex input. what i thought sebastian was suggesting was that the final typeset quality can quite reasonably be the same as that of tex, since one can use tex as a typesetting engine at the end of a *ml processing pipeline. robin 4-Dec-1998 14:54:18-GMT,3210;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA23057 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:53:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04412; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:36:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411475 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:36:18 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04401 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:36:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id OAA02527; hop 0; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:27:42 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:35:33 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199812041356.IAA12575@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <13927.61065.15387.894793@srahtz> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:15:37 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812041356.IAA12575@hilbert.math.albany.edu> William F. Hammond writes: > (But nobody plans to author directly in MathML.) depends what you mean by `author in MathML'. is Amaya `authoring in MathML'? seems like it to me > Amen. Of course, you write not only the software that processes > but also a dtd (document type definition) that serves in some sense as > an outline for the software logic. if you want, yes. recommended, but not mandatory > done by processors. Before any serious processing is done your macros > need to be fully expanded. (We don't see that expansion with our eyes > when using TeX-based systems.) and lord, how much heartache that blindness has caused us all over the years... > presentation format. And one might want to think very carefully about > exactly when, along the road, "\alpha" (oops, in xml I mean > "") should be resolved to unicode (which is what happens if I > write "α". no, sorry, untrue. α is resolved to whatever your DTD resolves it to. it can resolve to if you want. or alpha. well, entity expansion has some problems, so in fact is more flexible, but lets not claim that there are any hard-wired mappings for α sebastian 4-Dec-1998 14:55:39-GMT,2433;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA23116 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:55:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04516; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:37:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411482 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:37:11 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04494 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:37:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id OAA02556; hop 0; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:28:32 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:36:21 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199812041359.IAA12584@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <13927.61198.268127.362348@srahtz> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:17:50 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812041359.IAA12584@hilbert.math.albany.edu> William F. Hammond writes: > : . . . your friend TeX will > : still be there underneath, formatting away for you. > > I'm not clear about what this means. Is it more than print only? > Does it refer to Eitan Gurari's "tex4ht"? > i was just thinking of print. i just mean that your may eventually become "a^3", and be eaten by a TeX process composing a book sebastian 4-Dec-1998 19:31:28-GMT,3349;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00638 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:31:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA29223; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:09:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411607 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:09:41 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29201 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:09:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.54] (sl34.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.54]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA14822 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:09:21 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:05:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812041356.IAA12575@hilbert.math.albany.edu> At 08:56 -0500 1998/12/04, William F. Hammond wrote: >About macros: your whole point of view here changes when you realize >what you could be authoring. Not only might you want to think about >the paper target as an end format, but you also might want to think >about the www target, the cataloging target, the making of provision >for clipping segments into sophisticated processors (e.g., if MathML >is a target), and who knows what else ultimately. In writing for >multiple presentation formats it is highly desirable to avoid >target-conscious bifurcation (such as one sees occasionally in >Texinfo). The handling of different target presentation formats is >done by processors. Before any serious processing is done your macros >need to be fully expanded. (We don't see that expansion with our eyes >when using TeX-based systems.) The way I see it, this is what really drives the development of an authoring language capable of describing more structure: When authoring a manuscript with potential multiple uses, one should never produce several different specialized copies, as it is difficult to keep them consistent. The macro based systems are in this respect inferior, as it is unclear what the structure is: Is before, during or after expansion? What about the syntactic information that authors normally use? What about other contextual information? So this will eventually force the devlopment of more advanced authoring languages. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 5-Dec-1998 14:21:36-GMT,3327;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24836 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 07:21:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA11661; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:49:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411881 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:49:45 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11645 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:49:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-4.tiac.net (mail-out-4.tiac.net [199.0.65.16]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17415 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:49:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from yandy (p69.tc5.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.76.70]) by mail-out-4.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26482; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:49:26 GMT (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <199812021354.NAA17023@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> <199812021218.MAA14258@nag.co.uk> <199812012137.QAA25671@fenris.math.albany.edu> <13923.46894.353948.654511@srahtz> <199812021218.MAA14258@nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981205084555.00a97770@pop.tiac.net> Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:48:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y Inc." Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 06:07 PM 12/2/98 +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: >> >The *ML movements are currently pretty orthogonal to what TeX can offer: >> >The *ML offer fast, simple typesetting, suitable for WWW and simpler types >> > of printing. >>its a shame we don't have a competition for "the most inaccurate and >>ill-informed remarks made on latex-l each month". >Please explain. :-) I am not sure what Sebastian had in mind, but it is a fantasy world where more than a handful of people use *ML at all, and a fantasy world where this does something suitable for WWW viewing and simpler types of printing just IMHO, of course. By the way, Chuck Bigelow once ran a contest for the stupidest remark on comp.fonts. There was no shortage of competitors. Strangely the awardees where not at all pleased... Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. phone: (508) 371-3286 fax: (508) 371-2004 (USA) mailto:support@YandY.com mailto:sales@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com http://www.YandY.com/unique.htm 6-Dec-1998 11:41:30-GMT,3276;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA18630 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 04:41:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA21147; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 12:16:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411304 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 12:15:57 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21132 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 12:15:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.75] (sl55.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.75]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15237 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 12:15:53 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 12:16:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L At 08:48 -0500 1998/12/05, Y&Y Inc. wrote: >... it is a fantasy world where >more than a handful of people use *ML at all, and a fantasy world where this >does something suitable for WWW viewing and simpler types of printing >just IMHO, of course. I used *ML as a collective term for those various ML's: Then a lot already use HTML, and this will be replaced XML if now Netscape and Microsoft and those will implement it on their WWW-browsers. The question is though if they are only markups how they should be on the one hand be able to become authoring languages -- writing math in WYSIWYG or *ML is hopeless, because it is difficult to make the code consistent: This is where this wish for macros comes in, but macros are too naive for sophisticated authoring outputs. So one still needs some kind of language that the author can use. And one the other hand, the question is how one should be able to indicate details about the graphical output: The idea must be that the author indicates as exactly as possible the information intended in every part of the manuscript. So sometimes it may be very detailed, and other times less detailed. >By the way, Chuck Bigelow once ran a contest for the stupidest remark on >comp.fonts. There was no shortage of competitors. Strangely the awardees >where not at all pleased... Such negativism is probably a good way to spread frustations that get in the way of more constructive developments. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 6-Dec-1998 15:44:21-GMT,2784;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22639 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 08:44:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02036; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:13:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411357 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:13:33 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02024 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:13:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 6 Dec 98 15:13:31 +0000 (GMT) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981206151331.A12791@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:13:31 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: ; from Hans Aberg on Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:16:02PM +0100 On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:16:02PM +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: > I used *ML as a collective term for those various ML's: Then a lot already > use HTML, and this will be replaced XML if now Netscape and Microsoft and > those will implement it on their WWW-browsers. I find it curious that in all this discussion it seems to be assumed that while everything else will be turned upside-down Netscape and InternetExplorer will remain the only browsers in use, understanding only HTML/XML. It seems to me more likely that there will be dozens of browsers around, many of which will have no difficulty displaying PDF, DVI, etc. Consequently the "argument by browser" for *ML seems to me entirely devoid of merit. If there is an argument for MathML, OpenMath, etc (and I can see that there is one, though I remain unpersuaded) it will have to be based on more fundamental principles. Ps If xdvi worked as advertised it would itself be a TeX browser. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 6-Dec-1998 16:10:06-GMT,3462;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23095 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:10:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03362; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:42:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411369 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:42:57 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03348 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:42:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-3.tiac.net (mail-out-3.tiac.net [199.0.65.15]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA20651 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:42:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p58.tc2.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.187]) by mail-out-3.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17074 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:42:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981206103413.01e099b0@pop.tiac.net> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:42:17 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981206151331.A12791@maths.tcd.ie> At 10:13 AM 98/12/06 , you wrote: >Ps If xdvi worked as advertised it would itself be a TeX browser. Maybe this is something that merits more discussion. DVIWindo can be launched when a browser hits a DVI file. It also supports hyper-text linkage, including the ability to launch applications to deal with included file references to say PDF, HTML, TIFF files etc. (although it can also display TIFF directly). And since DVI files are compact it is very fast. But there are obstacles to making this sort of thing a reasonable alternative. One is that the DVI files are compact in part because they do not include fonts, so this works only if everyone has the fonts that are used. That probably means using CM fonts for everything. Included figures are an obstacle since these are not included in the DVI file, so would have to be fetched in a separate interaction. And different DVI previewer support very different collections of graphics (TIFF, BMP, GIF, JPEG, PICT, WMF, EPS, EPSI, TPIC, EEPIC, etc. etc.). And unless several `DVI browsers' support the some basic set of features (which may have big differences in implementation costs on different platforms), there won't be much of an incentive for people to use this as a medium for document distribution. Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 6-Dec-1998 16:11:27-GMT,3748;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23137 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:11:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03342; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:42:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411365 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:42:39 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03331 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:42:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.34] (sl28.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.48]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24891 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:42:11 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: ; from Hans Aberg on Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 12:16:02PM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:42:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981206151331.A12791@maths.tcd.ie> At 15:13 +0000 1998/12/06, Timothy Murphy wrote: >I find it curious that in all this discussion >it seems to be assumed that while everything else will be turned upside-down >Netscape and InternetExplorer will remain the only browsers in use, >understanding only HTML/XML. The story is that these two are the oligarchists, both aiding developments in the aspects that can help them making money, and impeding developments in the aspects they do not bother to implement. >It seems to me more likely that there will be dozens of browsers around, >many of which will have no difficulty displaying PDF, DVI, etc. So, eventually this will happen. I can add that there is not very difficult from the technical point of view to produce WWW browsers that can handle all that: Just make a sufficiently general display format and put it into the OS. (Example: Display PS used by NeXT computers and the new Rhapsody OS that runs on Macs and DOS computers.) Then the browser just calls those routines, and it becomes automatic. >Consequently the "argument by browser" for *ML >seems to me entirely devoid of merit. >If there is an argument for MathML, OpenMath, etc >(and I can see that there is one, though I remain unpersuaded) >it will have to be based on more fundamental principles. This is also what I think: These discussions must have a more long term scope than just the immediate mass-consumer market represented by Netscape and InternetExplorer and such. All these big companies, Microsoft, Apple, whatever, of curse presents them as big inventors and generators of creativity, but it is well known that these companies are no more than great exploiters of the creativity of others. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 6-Dec-1998 16:19:48-GMT,2401;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23293 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:19:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03766; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:51:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411397 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:51:42 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03756 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:51:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-4.tiac.net (mail-out-4.tiac.net [199.0.65.16]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA31543 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:51:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p58.tc2.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.187]) by mail-out-4.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09243; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:51:38 GMT (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <19981206151331.A12791@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981206105017.01eef1d0@pop.tiac.net> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:51:21 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 10:42 AM 98/12/06 , Hans Aberg wrote: >All these big companies, Microsoft, Apple, whatever, of curse presents them >as big inventors and generators of creativity, ... I love the (perhaps appropriate) typo! Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 6-Dec-1998 17:13:59-GMT,2988;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24225 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:13:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07071; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:45:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411412 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:45:51 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07061 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:45:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 6 Dec 98 16:45:50 +0000 (GMT) References: <19981206151331.A12791@maths.tcd.ie> <4.1.19981206103413.01e099b0@pop.tiac.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981206164549.A17777@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:45:49 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981206103413.01e099b0@pop.tiac.net>; from Y&Y, Inc. on Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 10:42:17AM -0500 On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 10:42:17AM -0500, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: > At 10:13 AM 98/12/06 , you wrote: > >Ps If xdvi worked as advertised it would itself be a TeX browser. > Maybe this is something that merits more discussion. DVIWindo > can be launched when a browser hits a DVI file. ... > But there are obstacles to making this sort of thing a reasonable alternative. > One is that the DVI files are compact in part because they do not include > fonts, so this works only if everyone has the fonts that are used. > That probably means using CM fonts for everything. Included figures > are an obstacle since these are not included in the DVI file, so would > have to be fetched in a separate interaction. These are indeed cogent points, which I had not really thought out when making my rather off-the-cuff remark on xdvi. On fonts, it seems to me that it ought to be possible to organise things so that missing fonts are downloaded automatically from the original site (with the DVI file). -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 7-Dec-1998 12:08:02-GMT,2462;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA15723 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 05:07:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA00337; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:33:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412304 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:33:57 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00323 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:33:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.107] (sl81.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.107]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09045 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:33:35 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <19981206151331.A12791@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:31:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981206105017.01eef1d0@pop.tiac.net> At 10:51 -0500 1998/12/06, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: >At 10:42 AM 98/12/06 , Hans Aberg wrote: > >>All these big companies, Microsoft, Apple, whatever, of curse presents them >>as big inventors and generators of creativity, ... > >I love the (perhaps appropriate) typo! It was a typo, but perhaps some higher powers intervened in order to help bringing out the truth. :-) Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 7-Dec-1998 17:23:38-GMT,3614;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22788 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 10:23:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA10879; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:57:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412916 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:57:11 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA10858 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:57:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zn3y8-0005Io-00; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:57:08 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:57:07 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:42:17 EST." <4.1.19981206103413.01e099b0@pop.tiac.net> someone at y&y wrote: > At 10:13 AM 98/12/06 , tim murphy wrote: > > >Ps If xdvi worked as advertised it would itself be a TeX browser. > > Maybe this is something that merits more discussion. DVIWindo > can be launched when a browser hits a DVI file. xdvi can be launched when a browser hits a dvi file (we do it here). > It also supports > hyper-text linkage, so does xdvi, i'm told (i've never used that facility). note that the linkage specials are almost certainly different... > including the ability to launch applications to > deal with included file references to say PDF, HTML, TIFF files etc. > (although it can also display TIFF directly). you beat xdvi there, though it does cope with most .eps inclusions quite well. > And since DVI files are > compact it is very fast. xdvi's quite nippy too. > But there are obstacles to making this sort of thing a reasonable alternative. > One is that the DVI files are compact in part because they do not include > fonts, so this works only if everyone has the fonts that are used. > That probably means using CM fonts for everything. the same problem applies, of course. this is the real killer for dvi distribution: as tim murphy says, fonts _could_ be retrieved on demand, but i imagine one wouldn't ordinarily want to do that for anything but free fonts. > Included figures > are an obstacle since these are not included in the DVI file, so would > have to be fetched in a separate interaction. And different DVI previewer > support very different collections of graphics (TIFF, BMP, GIF, JPEG, PICT, > WMF, EPS, EPSI, TPIC, EEPIC, etc. etc.). And unless several `DVI browsers' > support the some basic set of features (which may have big differences > in implementation costs on different platforms), there won't be much of > an incentive for people to use this as a medium for document distribution. in short, nice format, shame about the lack of portability (for anything remotely non-trivial). robin 7-Dec-1998 18:10:15-GMT,2481;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24063 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:10:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA13442; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:37:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413003 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:37:01 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA13432 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:36:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from turing.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 7 Dec 98 17:36:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by turing.maths.tcd.ie (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA08976 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:36:58 GMT References: <4.1.19981206103413.01e099b0@pop.tiac.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981207173658.D8618@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:36:58 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: What is "base" LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: ; from Robin Fairbairns on Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 04:57:07PM +0000 On Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 04:57:07PM +0000, Robin Fairbairns wrote: > > including the ability to launch applications to > > deal with included file references to say PDF, HTML, TIFF files etc. > > (although it can also display TIFF directly). > > you beat xdvi there, though it does cope with most .eps inclusions > quite well. I think xdvi is actually supposed to be able to deal with such things, according to xdvik/mime.c . -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 9-Dec-1998 21:02:01-GMT,8487;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03971 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:01:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA11495; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:35:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412773 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:35:44 +0100 Received: from na.uni-tuebingen.de (root@na.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.161.64]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11487 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:35:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de (na6 [134.2.161.170]) by na.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09156 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:35:37 +0100 (MET) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id VAA16014; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:35:36 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de: oliver set sender to oliver@na.uni-tuebingen.de using -f Message-ID: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:35:36 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Marcel Oliver Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L So would anybody be interested seriously set up a portable LaTeX project? For a start, I can see the following areas that need to be addressed: 1. Frontmatter/Bibliography 2. Definition of a portable subset of LaTeX. 3. Converters/Verification 4. Documentation I think the frontmatter/bibliography stuff we have discussed enough, maybe just one more idea (although I have to admit complete ignorance here as so far I never got round to using bibtex): Can these two elements be made work in exactly the same way? I.e., to use the same user interface and tools for both? In particular, this would mean that the frontmatter can be optionally (!) supplied from a frontmatter database (from which the author could directly quote in later papers); similarly, the bibliography could optionally be marked up (like the frontmatter today) within the document on the same level of abstraction as the bibliography database. Part 2 has been discussed quite extensively... probably needs some summarizing and expert opinions. For area 3, one would initially need at least one reference implementation of a LaTeX to *ML converter were one must make sure that it supports a complete portable LaTeX standard which allows serious scientific publishing without unnecessary restrictions. (Would the Elsevier converter come close to this description?) Moreover, a (TeX based) LaTeX package for verifying that the portability of a LaTeX file. The documentation part is obvious. Maybe here the "Bazaar" style of development could be use most effectively, if a suitable WWW based documentation server could be set up. Why is this important? I think from all the discussion it is apparent that there is no alternative to LaTeX as an authoring language (as opposed to data exchange, archival, or symbolic computing language). Further, I yet have to see a WYSIWYG tool which matches the efficiency and power of LaTeX. Two reasons: - The LaTeX input syntax (or whatever we take that for) is a reasonable compromise between consistency and readability. I think for all what I have seen, *ML tends more towards consistency and less towards readability (which I guess is what they were designed for). Having authored quite a bit of raw HTML (please no flames...) I find the angle brackets and forward slashes disturbing, especially around math. - LaTeX is hackable. While this is certainly opposed to the goals of a portable LaTeX standard, it is a tremendous advantage for authors as "portable" and "non-portable" writing projects (where visual mark-up in slides, CVs, invitation cards, or special effects which are sometimes necessary) can be done with the same system; code can be exchanged with minimal alterations between "portable" and "non-portable" documents, and only one markup language need be learned. I believe a lot of resistance to a pure *ML solution comes from the fear for loss of hackability. Do people feel that such an approach is useful and has a sufficient chance of success? If so, would anybody actually do some work? I am fairly time constrained, but could imagine doing something concrete about topics (1) and (4)---not before January though. Or shall we do business as usual? Marcel PS.: Some misc. comments to remarks on the list: Hans Aberg wrote: > EBNF like other computer languages. The problem is that there is no > way within TeX to ensure that authors use that syntax. Further, TeX > integrates authoring and typesetting in a way, making the task even > more difficult. I don't think it is really a problem. At least I think I have a pretty good idea about what's LaTeX and what isn't. Things get much more difficult to keep functionality portable, and this is what needs to be discussed in detail. "William F. Hammond" wrote: > What you describe is the conscious goal of my GELLMU, which is found at > > http://math.albany.edu/~hammond/gellmu/ , I looked at your pages, but I cannot see the advantage of "LaTeX-like" vs. "subset of TeX/LaTeX". When a document is authored, it is typeset many many times, while it is converted to other formats very few times. So it seems counterintuitive to require preprocessing for the most frequently occurring task. Moreover, a large percentage of existing LaTeX documents are portable or could be make portable by trivial changes, so this base of documents would be lost for no apparent gain. Last, the loss of hackability problem also applies here. Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > What about considering every core LaTeX feature and rethink about > moving them to tools or taking them from there? E.g., many agree > that picture should go there (since it's used less and less), and > array should come from there. Good idea. Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > i'm slightly bemused to hear that mathematicians now require special > _hypertext_ as well as everything else. but I'd point out that a > link embedded in a PDF document should be able to be expressed in > XPointer syntax perfectly well, which helps a little. I'd agree that > internally the PDF model is simplistic - but then who *has* > implemented anything better in mainstream software? Personally I am quite happy if I can find a document that I need on the net. Whether it comes in dvi, postscript, PDF, or LaTeX2HTML (with math as gif) is really secondary. Anyway, the problems of optimizing web browsing should not be our concern, it's more important to implement the infrastructure to make LaTeX documents convertible into potential browser formats or other formats that exists or may come along in the future by providing a consistent and well-defined interface. Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > by which we see why LaTeX is unpopular in production workflows. that > translates to "10% failure" So this should be addressed by a portable LaTeX standard. Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > my (admittedly naive) view is that presentation MathML is like plain > TeX maths, ie it provides building blocks for putting practically any > math on the page. real users put a layer on top (macros), to let them > write commands which have semantic meaning for them. > > if you accept this, then the XML/MathML world is no different. make up > a new language, using XML syntax, to say whatever you want > xy > (forget the verbose syntax for now), and then provide the XSL > transformation script which maps that to presentational MathML. within > your own research group, write software which groks directly. Would this not create similar portability/conversion/parsing problems that we have with TeX now if this were sufficiently powerful? 9-Dec-1998 22:09:30-GMT,2823;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05539 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:09:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17094; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:48:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412792 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:48:34 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17082 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:48:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.107] (sl81.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.107]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02892 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:48:28 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:48:30 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> At 21:35 +0100 1998/12/09, Marcel Oliver wrote: >Hans Aberg wrote: >> EBNF like other computer languages. The problem is that there is no >> way within TeX to ensure that authors use that syntax. Further, TeX >> integrates authoring and typesetting in a way, making the task even >> more difficult. > >I don't think it is really a problem. At least I think I have a >pretty good idea about what's LaTeX and what isn't. Does this mean that the papers are going to be sent to you for verification of syntax correctness? :-) -- The problem is with all those that do not have this insight. > Things get much >more difficult to keep functionality portable, and this is what needs >to be discussed in detail. I am not sure what you mean by "portable" here: If a manuscript should be converted to a format requiring a certain syntax, and the original does not have the right syntax, then the translation process will break. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 9-Dec-1998 22:20:08-GMT,3181;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05783 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:20:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17772; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:59:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412795 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:59:23 +0100 Received: from na.uni-tuebingen.de (root@na.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.161.64]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17763 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:59:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de (na6 [134.2.161.170]) by na.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09274 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:59:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from na.uni-tuebingen.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16109 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:59:16 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <366EF2B4.88F89787@na.uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:59:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Marcel Oliver Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hans Aberg wrote: > Does this mean that the papers are going to be sent to you for verification > of syntax correctness? :-) -- The problem is with all those that do not > have this insight. I was proposing an automated checker for this. > > Things get much > >more difficult to keep functionality portable, and this is what needs > >to be discussed in detail. > > I am not sure what you mean by "portable" here: If a manuscript should be > converted to a format requiring a certain syntax, and the original does not > have the right syntax, then the translation process will break. Sure, but you can't really cause too much trouble without \def, \expandafter and friends, and these clearly do not belong in a portable format (while some form of \newcommand should be allowed for reasons discussed some time ago). Stuff like graphics inclusion, math formatting macros, special fonts and plenty of others which has been mentioned many times pose much more serious problems due to their *functionality*. I have yet to see a syntax problem which is nontrivial in this context. (Although you might make it a thesis project for a graduate student to find one:-) Marcel 10-Dec-1998 1:56:24-GMT,4944;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA11166 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:56:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA05838; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:41:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 411926 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:41:12 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA05829 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:41:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16102; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:41:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id UAA16278; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:41:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812100141.UAA16278@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:41:01 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Marcel -- You write to the list: > and power of LaTeX. Two reasons: > > - The LaTeX input syntax (or whatever we take that for) is a . . . > - LaTeX is hackable. While this is certainly opposed to the goals of a You think that dtd's for authoring and processors driven by author-supplied collections of little functions are not hackable ? ? ? and you write: > "William F. Hammond" wrote: > > What you describe is the conscious goal of my GELLMU, which is found at > > > > http://math.albany.edu/~hammond/gellmu/ , > > I looked at your pages, but I cannot see the advantage of "LaTeX-like" > vs. "subset of TeX/LaTeX". When a document is authored, it is typeset > many many times, ... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ for proof reading, I assume? OK, so you process only from markup to dvi for proof reading. Along the way the gellmu to-sgml processor debugs your syntax and after that the sgml parser checks if your document is marked up logically, pointing out the exact problem. For that matter, processing both for dvi and html and then validating the html takes about a second longer and provides a slight extra verification of document logical accuracy against a portable public format. (Of course, if you never want a different form and if you know now that you are never going to want "smart" documents, then use LaTeX only. GELLMU, SGML, and XML only make sense if you are interested in multiple outputs.) > ... while it is converted to other formats very few > times. So it seems counterintuitive to require preprocessing for the > most frequently occurring task. Moreover, a large percentage of > existing LaTeX documents are portable or could be make portable by > trivial changes, so this base of documents would be lost for no > apparent gain. Last, the loss of hackability problem also applies > here. In practice *today* only Lamport LaTeX has a chance of being viewed as portable. LaTeX2E appears to lack a wide enough distribution at this point. What is legal TeX is an even broader category than what is legal LaTeX. And is DVI really portable? Only if one restricts to fonts (including glyph sets) that may be assumed to have universal distribution to all dvi-equipped sites. Even so, a faculty member in a math or physics department has the problem that his chairman may not know how to print dvi, may not have a web browser that is configured to use dvi, and his dean is even less capable with dvi. That is why one sometimes sees publications on the web in pdf and not in dvi. :-( University graduates in the United States who acquire jobs in small 2 year or 4 year undergraduate institutions sometimes find that they enter a community where nobody else uses TeX or LaTeX. It is likely, however, in the near future that everybody will have XML engines for screen viewing and printing. If that does not happen, then I plan to put up my papers with ugly, but fully decipherable, math in ordinary HTML because some of my audience can view HTML but cannot view PDF. Portability aside my guess is that, as a theoretical matter, there exist no _fully_ _automatic_ _failsafe_ _translations_ from legal Lamport LaTeX to _any_ format that is not DVI or constructible from DVI (e.g., PostScript and PDF). -- Bill 10-Dec-1998 8:43:53-GMT,2650;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA19773 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:43:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA19210; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:58:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412064 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:58:43 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19202 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:58:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.108] (sl82.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.108]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17222 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:58:40 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se (Unverified) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 23:30:52 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <366EF2B4.88F89787@na.uni-tuebingen.de> At 22:59 +0100 1998/12/09, Marcel Oliver wrote: >I was proposing an automated checker for [verification of syntax correctnes]. Then you have a problem. >Sure, but you can't really cause too much trouble without \def, >\expandafter and friends, and these clearly do not belong in a >portable format (while some form of \newcommand should be allowed for >reasons discussed some time ago). The problem is not only within LaTeX, but with respect to the inofrmation other tools should extract: That is what is forcing a more complex syntax also within LaTeX. And then you need a tool to check that syntax. But that tool can perhaps be merged with the editor (like emacs), or a separate program. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 10-Dec-1998 11:13:10-GMT,4051;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA22733 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 04:13:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA05397; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:35:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412155 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:35:24 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05175 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:33:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA27721; hop 0; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:24:50 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:31:42 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 References: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <3995-Thu10Dec1998101802+0000-s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:18:02 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Marcel Oliver writes: > So would anybody be interested seriously set up a portable LaTeX > project? i, for one, could consider asking my management to allow me time to work on it. i would volunteer to work on the reference LaTeX-subset to *ML converter. > I think the frontmatter/bibliography stuff we have discussed enough, but we havent resolved it...:-} > For area 3, one would initially need at least one reference > implementation of a LaTeX to *ML converter were one must make sure > that it supports a complete portable LaTeX standard which allows > serious scientific publishing without unnecessary restrictions. (Would > the Elsevier converter come close to this description?) Moreover, a the Elsevier converter is slightly odd. I would suggest, rather, that a TeX4ht configuration to produce XML/MathML is more realistic, and portable. Eitan Gurari and I have done a lot of this already. > (TeX based) LaTeX package for verifying that the portability of a > LaTeX file. we tried that once here. one can go quite a long way, i think > - LaTeX is hackable. While this is certainly opposed to the goals of a .. > I believe a lot of resistance to a pure *ML solution comes from the > fear for loss of hackability. of course, i agree. its a real issue a cautionary tale: i am in the process of learning Java, and have great problems readjusting myself to a `real' language after the freedom of Perl. but i will persist, because I know my Perl programs are not going to stand the test of time. i feel the same about LaTeX - I can write fast in it, like it, get results with it, but I know its not good for me. so i must force myself to readjust. i'll do my hacking in a different part of the process > Do people feel that such an approach is useful and has a sufficient > chance of success? If so, would anybody actually do some work? I am i feel very strongly that your suggestions will get nowhere without a single leader, who can devote real time to it. i know i advocate Bazaarism, but in this case, it'll get nowhere without a coordinator. IMHO. Sebastian 10-Dec-1998 11:17:46-GMT,2777;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA22824 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 04:17:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA05190; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:33:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412152 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:33:22 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05178 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:33:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA27725; hop 0; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:24:50 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:32:18 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199812100141.UAA16278@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <13935.41165.368518.816177@srahtz> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:22:05 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812100141.UAA16278@hilbert.math.albany.edu> William F. Hammond writes: > In practice *today* only Lamport LaTeX has a chance of being viewed > as portable. LaTeX2E appears to lack a wide enough distribution at > this point. grrrrrr. *LaTeX* is as described in Lamport's book, of which only the 2nd edition can be bought now. That describes LaTeX2e, ie standard LaTeX. The older LaTeX209 is deprecated, unsupported, etc etc. > Portability aside my guess is that, as a theoretical matter, there > exist no _fully_ _automatic_ _failsafe_ _translations_ from legal > Lamport LaTeX to _any_ format that is not DVI or constructible from depends on the target DTD. systems like TeX4ht, VTeX, and Omega, which use TeX as their translation engine, cannot fail if you make the target relaxed enough sebastian 10-Dec-1998 11:23:35-GMT,2641;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA22923 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 04:23:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA06927; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:49:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412166 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:49:51 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06910 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:49:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id KAA17328; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:49:21 GMT References: <199812100141.UAA16278@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199812101049.KAA17328@nag.co.uk> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:49:21 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812100141.UAA16278@hilbert.math.albany.edu> (hammond@CSC.ALBANY.EDU) > In practice *today* only Lamport LaTeX has a chance of being viewed > as portable. LaTeX2E appears to lack a wide enough distribution at > this point. huh? Many people still author in 2.09 style as they never bothered to read any documentation, since they first started using latex (if they started before 1994) but most by now are using 2e to process those documents. I do not think there is any tex distribution that does not include latex2e, and most of them follow the request not to distribute the obsolete version. Calling 2.09 `lamport latex' is rather a confusing term (which I have noticed you have also used in previous posts). Both LaTeX2.09 and LaTeX2e have an official manual authored by Leslie Lamport. The 2.09 manual is the first edition which has been out of print since 1993. The 2e manual is the second edition which has been available since 1994. I am sure by now no bookshop has the former, so to base a `portable' specification on a system which is not distributed, not supported and has an out of print manual would be distinctly odd wouldn't it? David 10-Dec-1998 14:00:50-GMT,2147;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25752 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:00:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA23379; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:38:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412302 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:38:34 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA23350 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:38:29 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id NAA17238; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:38:04 GMT References: <199812101325.IAA19003@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199812101338.NAA17238@nag.co.uk> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:38:04 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812101325.IAA19003@hilbert.math.albany.edu> (hammond@CSC.ALBANY.EDU) > Today certainly one cannot expect portability with all of the commands > described in the Companion. No, that was never the intention of the companion. But conversely The core latex book would not work for this either. You are going to need the AMS math stuff, probably the tabular extensions from latex/tools and then some of the contributed packages like natbib and cite. The exact list would need some care to be drawn up but a starting point should probably the core set of packages in use now. Rather than what was available in 1992/3 when those books were being drawn up. David 10-Dec-1998 14:03:34-GMT,2683;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25826 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:03:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA22256; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:26:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412289 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:26:27 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22214 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:25:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01728 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id IAA19003 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:25:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812101325.IAA19003@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:25:40 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Sebastian Rahtz writes: : *LaTeX* is as described in Lamport's book, of which only the 2nd edition : can be bought now. That describes LaTeX2e, ie standard LaTeX. The older : LaTeX209 is deprecated, unsupported, etc etc. I agree that LaTeX is defined by Lamport's book, 2nd edition. The 2nd edition does call for the use of \documentclass. Lamport does recommend the LaTeX Companion. On the other hand, I would say that standard LaTeX, hence, what I would today call portable LaTeX is delimited by the commands described in Lamport's book. Today certainly one cannot expect portability with all of the commands described in the Companion. I see a need for (1) a core and (2) a subset of the core defined as portable. (If the subset should turn out to be the whole, then that is fine so long as it is understood. But my expectation is that over the years (2) should grow much more slowly than (1).) -- Bill 10-Dec-1998 16:27:29-GMT,2072;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29119 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:26:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA09796; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:01:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412524 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:01:36 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09780 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:01:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from fenris.math.albany.edu (fenris.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.39]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11967 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:01:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mark@localhost) by fenris.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id LAA02451 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:00:58 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Message-ID: <199812101600.LAA02451@fenris.math.albany.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:00:58 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Mark Steinberger Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812101325.IAA19003@hilbert.math.albany.edu> from "William F. Hammond" at Dec 10, 98 08:25:40 am Bill writes: > Today certainly one cannot expect portability with all of the commands > described in the Companion. But if you cut them all out, the typesetting will suffer. --Mark 10-Dec-1998 20:51:49-GMT,2465;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18002 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:49:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA29470; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:31:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412710 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:31:43 +0100 Received: from ROSE.IPM.AC.IR (vax.ipm.ac.ir [194.225.70.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA29442 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:31:16 +0100 (MET) Received: by ROSE.IPM.AC.IR (MX V4.1 VAX) id 130; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:59:41 +0330 Message-ID: <009D0821.9CF1AC80.130@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:59:40 +0330 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Roozbeh Pournader Subject: Public vote! To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Dear all, The problem of one package being popular or not has been the discussion in the background of the list for some time. I remember the speech about psfrag, natbib, etc. But a little question: Are we the users? We are usually the programmers. Even a math-oriented person like Robin Fairbains is now a CTAN maintainer! I think preparation of some question forms for distribution between LaTeX users will have a great outcome. We can know which parts are used more, and which parts less. This is somehow like taking a vote. So we can know which package they use and love, which packages the use and hate, which package they haven't heard of, which feature they like to see in the future, etc. etc. I know that some of us recommend them the use of some packages by making them available on distributions (ranging from emTeX to TeXlive), but let's forget that effect now. --Roozbeh P.S.: There has been always a problem in undemocratic societies (like my home country): there have always been some people who think they know what others need, and/or like; but they are usually wrong. 10-Dec-1998 21:49:18-GMT,3796;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26956 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:49:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA01861; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:19:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412758 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:19:10 +0100 Received: from math.ams.org (math.ams.org [130.44.210.14]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA01828 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:19:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from sun06.ams.org by math.ams.org via smtpd (for relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) with SMTP; 10 Dec 1998 21:19:00 UT Received: from localhost by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F3R00F01PVCN6@sun06.ams.org> for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:18:48 -0500 (EST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:18:48 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Barbara Beeton Subject: Re: Public vote! To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <009D0821.9CF1AC80.130@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> roozbeh pournader suggests that a poll be taken to find out what packages are actually used with latex. sounds to me like a reasonable idea. if someone will put together a questionnaire, i will be happy to publish it in the december issue of tugboat. (we're trying to get the camera copy out by christmas, so if it's to be done, the text should be in hand no later than the end of next week.) it's probably possible to set up a mail drop at the tug site so that e-mail returns can be collected or forwarded from there to whoever will do the analysis. a postal address would also be a good idea, as some tugboat readers still don't have good net connections. tugboat would also be a suitable place to report the results of the survey. -- barbara beeton -------------------- On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > Dear all, > The problem of one package being popular or not has been the discussion > in the background of the list for some time. I remember the speech > about psfrag, natbib, etc. But a little question: Are we the users? > We are usually the programmers. Even a math-oriented person like Robin > Fairbains is now a CTAN maintainer! > > I think preparation of some question forms for distribution between LaTeX > users will have a great outcome. We can know which parts are used more, > and which parts less. This is somehow like taking a vote. So we can know > which package they use and love, which packages the use and hate, > which package they haven't heard of, which feature they like to see > in the future, etc. etc. > > I know that some of us recommend them the use of some packages by making them > available on distributions (ranging from emTeX to TeXlive), but let's > forget that effect now. > > --Roozbeh > > P.S.: There has been always a problem in undemocratic societies (like my > home country): there have always been some people who think they know what > others need, and/or like; but they are usually wrong. 11-Dec-1998 1:16:10-GMT,3247;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA05795 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:16:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA11812; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:44:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412386 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:43:37 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11785 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:42:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-3.tiac.net (mail-out-3.tiac.net [199.0.65.15]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10510 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:42:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p30.tc9.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.77.31]) by mail-out-3.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10219; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:42:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981210193536.00a37330@pop.tiac.net> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:42:28 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: Public vote! To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <009D0821.9CF1AC80.130@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> At 03:29 PM 98/12/10 , Roozbeh Pournader wrote: >I think preparation of some question forms for distribution between LaTeX >users will have a great outcome. We can know which parts are used more, >and which parts less. This is somehow like taking a vote. So we can know >which package they use and love, which packages the use and hate, >which package they haven't heard of, which feature they like to see >in the future, etc. etc. I think the problem with this laudable objective is that there is no way to take a scientific sample of (La)TeX users. Only a microscopic fraction of them belongs to any one well defined group --- like people reading comp.text.tex --- or TUG, or DANTE or GUTenberg or NTG or CyrTUG --- or reading Notices of the AMS or SIAM say. And if you perform the survey in comp.text.tex you will get an extremely biased view of the world! One outrageous idea would be an access count on packages on CTAN. Although this would not take into account redistribution at local sites and would be swamped probably by `mirroring' access and `collectors/pack rats' (who must simply have everything of any kind whether they need or not) rather than `normal' end users. Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 11-Dec-1998 10:40:33-GMT,2570;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA16997 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:40:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA02065; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:17:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412651 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:17:19 +0100 Received: from multivac (multivac.jb.man.ac.uk [130.88.24.128]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA02049 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:17:17 +0100 (MET) X-VMS-To: SMTP%"LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de" X-VMS-Cc: HELBIG Message-ID: <98121110144820@man.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:14:48 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Phillip Helbig Subject: Re: Public vote! To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L > The problem of one package being popular or not has been the discussion > in the background of the list for some time. I remember the speech > about psfrag, natbib, etc. But a little question: Are we the users? > We are usually the programmers. Even a math-oriented person like Robin > Fairbains is now a CTAN maintainer! Speaking as a user, and knowing what is needed in my world (author-prepared manuscripts for conference proceedings, journals, making posters, overheads etc), what is needed which is not in the `core' is psfrag, natbib, custom-bib. Also, authors often need to `\usepackage{times}'. Whether or not that has the desired effect depends on how the fonts are set up etc. So perhaps some set of core font installation would be needed as well. -- Phillip Helbig Email ......... p.helbig@jb.man.ac.uk Nuffield Radio Astronomy Laboratories Tel. .... +44 1477 571 321 (ext. 297) Jodrell Bank Fax ................ +44 1477 571 618 Macclesfield Telex ................ 36149 JODREL G UK-Cheshire SK11 9DL Web ... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~pjh/ My opinions are not necessarily those of NRAL or the University of Manchester. 11-Dec-1998 11:58:55-GMT,2634;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA18342 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:57:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA08039; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:23:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412706 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:23:17 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08008 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:23:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id LAA03473; hop 0; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:14:23 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:22:31 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <98121110144820@man.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13936.62535.257412.127624@srahtz> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:30:31 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: Public vote! To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <98121110144820@man.ac.uk> Phillip Helbig writes: > (author-prepared manuscripts for conference proceedings, journals, > making posters, overheads etc), what is needed which is not in the > `core' is psfrag, natbib, custom-bib. Also, authors often need to hmm. as discussed, "psfrag" is a disaster for almost everything except immediate typesetting. i accept that you need something like it, but i, _per se, is not a good thing to promote. > `\usepackage{times}'. Whether or not that has the desired effect > depends on how the fonts are set up etc. if \usepackage{times} has any effect other than the one I get when I run it, i am very annoyed. it should NOT vary at all. Sebastian 11-Dec-1998 12:54:29-GMT,2735;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA19372 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 05:54:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA14193; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:29:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412764 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:29:49 +0100 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14158 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:29:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from MAUI (maui.ai.mit.edu [128.52.37.105]) by life.ai.mit.edu (8.9.1/AI2.7/ai.master.life:2.2) with SMTP id HAA19218 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:29:00 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981211072359.00ada290@tiac.net> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:28:04 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: Public vote! To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <98121110144820@man.ac.uk> At 10:14 1998-12-11 +0000, you wrote: >Speaking as a user, and knowing what is needed in my world >(author-prepared manuscripts for conference proceedings, journals, >making posters, overheads etc), what is needed which is not in the >`core' is psfrag, natbib, custom-bib. Also, authors often need to Leave out psfrag, and all PS-only hacks, and TeX-only graphics methods. Best to use standard tools for creating EPS or TIFF files (for ` vector graphics' and images respectively). >`\usepackage{times}'. Whether or not that has the desired effect >depends on how the fonts are set up etc. So perhaps some set of core >font installation would be needed as well. I think these days TeX systems come (or should come) with the required style and *.fd and *.tfm files to support non-CM fonts. Witness teTeX and OzTeX which now include support for MathTime and LucidaBright, dramatically simplifying installation and use. See http://www.yandy.com/support.htm#texfonts Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com 11-Dec-1998 12:58:59-GMT,2546;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA19444 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 05:58:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA14497; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:33:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412767 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:33:34 +0100 Received: from multivac (multivac.jb.man.ac.uk [130.88.24.128]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA14488 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:33:32 +0100 (MET) X-VMS-To: SMTP%"LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de" X-VMS-Cc: HELBIG Message-ID: <98121112321531@man.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:32:15 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Phillip Helbig Subject: Re: Public vote! To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L > >Speaking as a user, and knowing what is needed in my world > >(author-prepared manuscripts for conference proceedings, journals, > >making posters, overheads etc), what is needed which is not in the > >`core' is psfrag, natbib, custom-bib. Also, authors often need to > > Leave out psfrag, and all PS-only hacks, and TeX-only graphics methods. > Best to use standard tools for creating EPS or TIFF files (for ` vector > graphics' and images respectively). Two separate issues here. Even with PostScript files created with `standard tools' (Mathematica, IDL---not to mention my own Fortran programme, which produces the best (for my purposes) PostScript I've seen), one often needs to `muck around' a bit to change axis labelling etc. -- Phillip Helbig Email ......... p.helbig@jb.man.ac.uk Nuffield Radio Astronomy Laboratories Tel. .... +44 1477 571 321 (ext. 297) Jodrell Bank Fax ................ +44 1477 571 618 Macclesfield Telex ................ 36149 JODREL G UK-Cheshire SK11 9DL Web ... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~pjh/ My opinions are not necessarily those of NRAL or the University of Manchester. 12-Dec-1998 16:16:03-GMT,3513;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23266 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:15:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA18367; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:03:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412681 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:03:19 +0100 Received: from ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18360 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:03:17 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:03:12 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:57:37 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:57:32 +0100 X400-Received: by mta open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:57:31 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:57:53 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<13938.37317.859422.965110@fell.] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: Public vo... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: <009D0821.9CF1AC80.130@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13938.37317.859422.965110@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:57:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: Public vote! To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210193536.00a37330@pop.tiac.net> > I think the problem with this laudable objective is that there is no way to > take a scientific sample of (La)TeX users. Only a microscopic fraction of > them belongs to any one well defined group --- like people reading > comp.text.tex --- or TUG, or DANTE or GUTenberg or NTG or CyrTUG --- > or reading Notices of the AMS or SIAM say. That is certainly the conclusion that we came to several times previously. If anyone has any good ideas about a sampling frame for such an activity, for TeX and/or LaTeX, please let us know. > > And if you perform the survey in comp.text.tex you will get an extremely > biased view of the world! And how, almost as bad as LaTeX-L:-). > > One outrageous idea would be an access count on packages on CTAN. > Although this would not take into account redistribution at local sites and > would be swamped probably by `mirroring' access and `collectors/pack rats' > (who must simply have everything of any kind whether they need or not) > rather than `normal' end users. But it might be interesting data. chris 12-Dec-1998 16:33:48-GMT,3197;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23603 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:33:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA19683; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:22:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412694 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:22:37 +0100 Received: from ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19672 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:22:35 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:22:28 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:22:20 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:22:15 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN2 in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:22:23 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<13938.38709.212009.451774@fell.] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: portable ... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13938.38709.212009.451774@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:22:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <3995-Thu10Dec1998101802+0000-s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk> Sebastian wrote -- > i feel the same about LaTeX - > I can write fast in it, like it, get results with it, but I know its > not good for me. so i must force myself to readjust. i'll do my > hacking in a different part of the process By writing your own personal formatter in java, I assume, ... after you pass the course! > > > Do people feel that such an approach is useful and has a sufficient > > chance of success? If so, would anybody actually do some work? I am > > i feel very strongly that your suggestions will get nowhere without > a single leader, who can devote real time to it. i know i advocate > Bazaarism, but in this case, it'll get nowhere without a > coordinator. IMHO. Which is also what the bazaar article says. It is very good to see that people are prepared to devote time to this work. chris 12-Dec-1998 16:42:15-GMT,3020;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23741 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:42:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA20022; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:31:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412699 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:31:08 +0100 Received: from ixgate01.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate01.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.1]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20015 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:31:07 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:31:03 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:30:56 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:30:52 +0100 X400-Received: by mta open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:30:51 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN2 in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:30:58 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<13938.39078.837542.25056@fell.o] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: portable ... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: <199812101325.IAA19003@hilbert.math.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13938.39078.837542.25056@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:30:58 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812101325.IAA19003@hilbert.math.albany.edu> William F. Hammond wrote -- > I agree that LaTeX is defined by Lamport's book, 2nd edition. > > The 2nd edition does call for the use of \documentclass. Some of us, including Leslie, would like very soon to make anything using \documentstyle, etc so non-portable that it is is no longer processable. David Carlisle wrote -- > but most by now are using 2e to process those documents. Such a statement is surely as difficult to support as it is to estimate the number of users of a package? But perhaps he has been told this by MI5? chris 12-Dec-1998 17:21:16-GMT,6422;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24384 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:21:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA21856; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:05:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412716 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:05:56 +0100 Received: from ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21847 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:05:54 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:05:44 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:05:14 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:05:10 +0100 X400-Received: by mta open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:05:09 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:05:25 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.o] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: portable ... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:05:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > What about considering every core LaTeX feature and rethink about > moving them to tools or taking them from there? E.g., many agree > that picture should go there (since it's used less and less), and > array should come from there. Moving things to/from the kernel needs work by people who understand all the possible consequences. Thus, whilst these are probably good ideas, they probably will not get implemented very quickly. Has anyone tried the autoload version of the kernel? Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > i'm slightly bemused to hear that mathematicians now require special > _hypertext_ as well as everything else. but I'd point out that a > link embedded in a PDF document should be able to be expressed in > XPointer syntax perfectly well, which helps a little. I'd agree that > internally the PDF model is simplistic - but then who *has* > implemented anything better in mainstream software? As a model of what is it simplistic? Some of it is the opposite of simplistic, being over-speciliased and baroque. And what are the `internals of a model' in this context? But perhaps he just mean its model of links and other hyper-stuff? ... and: > it's more important to implement the infrastructure to make LaTeX > documents convertible into potential browser formats or other > formats that exists or may come along in the future by providing a > consistent and well-defined interface. And even more important to implement the infrastructure to make something like pdfLaTeX (eg context;-) able to easily, portably and transparently convert logical browser formats into well-formatted and well-typeset documents (for both screen and paper) described in some sufficientlly rich, device-independent language. ... and also: > by which we see why LaTeX is unpopular in production workflows. that > translates to "10% failure" 10% failure would be heaven in our production typesetting environment (and we do not see any efficiency gain from sending the stuff across the world to be keyboarded ... but this probably short-sighted). But we still have enough people around who recall the problems we used to have with 30% failure in a galley/paste-up hard-copy external typeseting system: even 40% failure with electronic typesetting/editing is, for them, absolute zen already! An important and big difference between 10% failure from a flexible, programmable system and an (expensive, probably) black box is that with the former one can often fix the failure for ever more. and moreover!: > my (admittedly naive) view is that presentation MathML is like plain > TeX maths, ie it provides building blocks for putting practically any > math on the page. It would be even better if in some respects it was even nearer to TeX; but it has some features (eg the dreadfully-named ) that are needed for presentation maths mark-up but are missing from TeX. > real users put a layer on top (macros), to let them > write commands which have semantic meaning for them. Could we please see some examples of MathML, or is it XML, macros that might appear in a document? > > if you accept this, then the XML/MathML world is no different. make up > a new language, using XML syntax, to say whatever you want > xy > (forget the verbose syntax for now), and then provide the XSL > transformation script which maps that to presentational MathML. I have been reliably informed that XSL does not allow specifications that are expressive enough to do this job (basically since it knows nothing about maths, in the sense that it has no concept of arithmetic). I am sure that all these little niggles can be fixed, given sufficent committee-person-hours, but that still leaves a vital question unanswered: as Marcel Oliver wrote -- > Would this not create similar portability/conversion/parsing problems > that we have with TeX now if this were sufficiently powerful? > chris 12-Dec-1998 18:55:49-GMT,4675;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26062 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:55:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA26666; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:41:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412800 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:41:36 +0100 Received: from mail.omnilink.net (mail.omnilink.net [194.64.25.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26658 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:41:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from gazette.omnilink.net (gazette.omnilink.net [194.64.25.22]) by mail.omnilink.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA17312 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:41:04 +0100 (MET) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gazette.omnilink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id TAA19932 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:41:04 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from schrod@npc.de) Received: from baghira.npc.de (baghira.npc.de [195.20.66.162]) by npc.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA29912 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:38:43 +0100 Received: (from schrod@localhost) by baghira.npc.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA23249; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:38:42 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199811261227.NAA14424@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199811261313.NAA28971@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p5 XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <199812121438.PAA23249@baghira.npc.de> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:38:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Joachim Schrod Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199811261313.NAA28971@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> >>>>> "SR" == Sebastian Rahtz writes: [I'm going over 6 weeks of mails -- even though it's quite old, I could not let it stand uncommented...] >> > i know i sound like an evangelist, but XML/MathML/SVG really *are* >> > designed to cover this sort of game. your SVG graphic will embed >> > MathML markup cleanly. >> >> Again, are the necessary authoring tools available? Will it allow me >> to easily typeset (!) my personal documents? SR> have you actually *tried* Office 97 to compose your memos? [...] SR> No, I dont use it either, [...] Yes, we do, most of the time, as requested by our customers. Problem: We don't succeed. Problem: I have yet to find somebody succeeding. You cannot input an element-oriented structure with a system that's architecture is oriented towards paragraph formatting control. MS Word is a fu**ing bad, brain-dead program. Compared to other authoring environments like LaTeX or Framemaker or Interleaf or ..., it costs large amounts of money in terms of lost productivity, additional work, fighting with the instability of this program (and loosing), etc. Being forced to use MS Word always means to raise project prices. (As an aside: You should address Christine the next time we see, and tell her that Office 97 is fine to use for creating documents. Bring money with you, you'll have to spend her a single malt for that comment to not get murdered. :-) Yes, XML is a Good Thing (TM) for certain areas. We use it a lot in application development. The real advantages like in initiatives like RDF, XMI, etc; using XML as a protocol specification and interchange language. XML has it's strength on the corporate level, as port of the infrastructure base. No, IMNSHO XML is not usable for authors, and I don't see this changing in the near or mid-term future. It's too inconvenient, return on personal investment is too low, and there are no tools in sight that will change this. (We track the market very closely.) Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Net & Publication Consultance GmbH Tel.: +49-6074-861530 Roedermark, Germany Fax: +49-6074-861531 12-Dec-1998 18:55:54-GMT,3601;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26070 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:55:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA26687; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:41:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412803 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:41:55 +0100 Received: from mail.omnilink.net (mail.omnilink.net [194.64.25.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26660 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:41:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from gazette.omnilink.net (gazette.omnilink.net [194.64.25.22]) by mail.omnilink.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA17316 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:41:05 +0100 (MET) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gazette.omnilink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id TAA19933 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:41:05 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from schrod@npc.de) Received: from baghira.npc.de (baghira.npc.de [195.20.66.162]) by npc.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA29917 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:42:53 +0100 Received: (from schrod@localhost) by baghira.npc.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA23256; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:42:53 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199811271514.KAA22026@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <13922.59462.279452.122152@fell.open.ac.uk> <13923.45842.264051.790964@srahtz> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p5 XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <199812121442.PAA23256@baghira.npc.de> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:42:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Joachim Schrod Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13923.45842.264051.790964@srahtz> >>>>> "SR" == Sebastian Rahtz writes: SR> Chris Rowley writes: >> ... mostly about normalisation and concrete syntax. >> >> He did not mention the lack of extensibility: was this deliberate? >> >> It is tortuously difficult in SGML to have bothe extendabilty and >> portability; it is therefore impossible to have extendability in XML >> (correct?). >> SR> "tortuously difficult"? but a standard feature of two well known DTDs, SR> TEI and Docbook. Do you really want to tell us that TEI is not one of the most complex DTDs that ever got written? Docbook is not an easily understandable one, either. At least my staff members (whom I count as being very good, and they are also versed in XML) have problems in controlling these complex DTDs. Could you please bring in other examples? These currently support the hypothesis that it's "tortuosly difficult". Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Net & Publication Consultance GmbH Tel.: +49-6074-861530 Roedermark, Germany Fax: +49-6074-861531 12-Dec-1998 19:30:00-GMT,3546;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA26718 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:29:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA27650; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:15:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412822 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:15:40 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27634 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:15:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05898; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id OAA27357; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:15:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812121915.OAA27357@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:15:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Chris Rowley writes: : > if you accept this, then the XML/MathML world is no different. make up : > a new language, using XML syntax, to say whatever you want : > xy : > (forget the verbose syntax for now), and then provide the XSL : > transformation script which maps that to presentational MathML. : : I have been reliably informed that XSL does not allow specifications : that are expressive enough to do this job (basically since it knows : nothing about maths, in the sense that it has no concept of arithmetic). I certainly hope that the suggestion is valid even though XSL may not be adequate to the task. The use of anything other than XSL for web-served materials is likely to be difficult. But in this context the processing from a TeX-like language to xml is in-house. I see no reason to suffer any restrictions that might be imposed by XSL. A more general SGML or XML processor should be able to do anything that is wanted. Even a processing framework like that of Megginson's sgmlspm/sgmlspl or, for xml purists, his sax, should be able to do the job. The real question is: Just what job is required to write MathML safely? Since MathML is completely specified and mathematical notation, as used by most LaTeX (or TeX) authors, is not specified with a matching degree of precise structure, we need to arrive at a mathematical understanding of what needs to be done to supplement mathematical notation, as it has been used through the years. For example, we need to understand exactly why mathematicians have no trouble parsing \sin ax \cos bx . Absent that, LaTeX authors will never have a way to know if their documents will be safely translated without in some way providing parallel MathML code for every math environment. (See http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/gellmu/notation) -- Bill 12-Dec-1998 21:07:27-GMT,2603;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28495 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:07:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA00541; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:54:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412870 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:54:18 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00534 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:54:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.69] (sl49.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.69]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22997 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:54:10 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:54:32 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812121915.OAA27357@hilbert.math.albany.edu> At 14:15 -0500 1998/12/12, William F. Hammond wrote: >For example, we need to understand exactly why mathematicians have >no trouble parsing > > \sin ax \cos bx . > >Absent that, LaTeX authors will never have a way to know if their >documents will be safely translated without in some way providing >parallel MathML code for every math environment. It is in fact not difficutol to write grammars able to parse such things (because I have done it -- the calculator on my home page used a similar grammar). So what is needed is that the text is written in a context of a grammar together with a set of translation laws to something that is well defined (in effect a local computer language). Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 12-Dec-1998 23:09:06-GMT,2721;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00764 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:09:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA02734; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:54:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412918 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:54:11 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA02725 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:54:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 12 Dec 98 22:54:08 +0000 (GMT) References: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981212225407.A29563@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:54:07 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk>; from Chris Rowley on Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 06:05:25PM +0100 On Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 06:05:25PM +0100, Chris Rowley wrote: There is a fundamental question about MathML/XML/OpenMath vs TeX/LaTeX which does not seem to me to have been answered here. As I understand it, *ML _parses_ (or tries to parse) maths, while Knuth in his wisdom decided this was impractical. For example, if I write $AB = CD$ this might refer to variables AB,CD (perhaps line segments) or it might refer to products of 4 variables A,B,C,D; I don't have to say in TeX/LaTeX. Would I have to say in *ML? Would I perhaps have to put in an \invisibletimes between A and B? The question is, then: is it possible to parse mathematics, and if so, is it wise to try? [It may be impossible, because it may be that mathematicians would refuse to be bound by any particular formal system put forward.] -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 12-Dec-1998 23:54:10-GMT,6920;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01553 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:53:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA03503; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:32:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412342 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:32:56 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03496 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:32:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12409 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id SAA29204 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:32:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812122332.SAA29204@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: notational examples To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L This is a text/plain rendition (with some human intervention) of http://math.albany.edu/~hammond/gellmu/authordtd/mathbench.html . What is a Reasonable Authoring DTD under SGML or XML for MathML? William F. Hammond 1. A Few Examples 1. Compound fractions: {{a}/{b}}/{{c}/{d}} = {a d}/{b c}. 2. The formula for solving the quadratic equation a x^2 + b x + c = 0 (in a field of characteristic <> 2): x = {-b {+/-} SQRT{b^2 - 4 a c}}/{2 a} . 3. Mixed function application and multiplication: sin a x cos b x . 4. Newton's binomial series: (1 + t)^r = SUM[_{k=0}^{INFTY} {r(r - 1)(r - 2)...(r - k + 1)}/{k!} t^k] . 5. Stokes's Theorem in space: INT[INT[_S (curl F . N) d sigma]] = INT[_{\partial S}(F . T)d s] . 6. The continued fraction for the golden mean: {1 + SQRT{5}}/{2} = {1}/{1+{1}/{1+{1}/{1+{1}/{1+...}}}}. 7. The inline math representation Gal(\bar{ Q }/Q) for a centrally important object that one might choose to declare as the symbol "galQ", once a command \mathsym has been implemented for use in a GELLMU document preamble (not to be confused with an SGML preamble). 2. Generating MathML There is an issue for authoring related to MathML [1], the rather verbose XML language developed by the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) HTML Math Working Group during the period 1996-1998. How can we set all of the above mathematics examples in a succinct SGML authoring language that admits robust processing to MathML and that uses reasonably succinct mathematical notation based on the long tradition of Western mathematical notation? The purpose of my draft on notation at the URL http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/gellmu/notation [2] is to explain what additional information is needed in this document to eliminate the need for guessing in automated rendering of the examples above, as marked up in the XML version of this document, into MathML in a fully automated way. Note that no guessing is needed to render this document in either HTML, with mathematics set crudely but reasonably, nor to render it in LaTeX. (Perhaps one may not fully appreciate this latter point without examining the XML version [3] of this document.) Note that under the unrealized part of my design a math symbol may be declared in a GELLMU document preamble with the usage: \mathsym{symbol-name}{symbol-type}[symbol-rendering] . In this symbol-name is an alphanumeric string (case-sensitive) beginning with a letter. The second argument symbol-type is an alpha-numeric string that may also include possibly a few other string characters such as `/', `-', `>', `<', `,', `.', `*', etc. (Under the didactic GELLMU document type definition a command name for each non-alphanumeric keyboard character is provided in order to provide flexible handling of such characters in various possible output formats.) It is intended that the type information be context-specific, possibly under a general framework that is not yet specified. The optional third argument is a generic instruction, in an unspecified format that will eventually need to be specified, for generic rendering as would be used if there were no symbol declaration for the symbol. Absent a third argument the rendering of the symbol should simply be symbol-name . (In LaTeX the ``space'' might be a small space.) Note further that when my GNU Emacs Lisp processor transliterates the GELLMU markup for mathsym to SGML, it will simply convert the argument markup to tagged format. The command name mathsym will be one of very few names that acquires a meaning in my design for GELLMU outside of the SGML document type definition (as well as therein) that is a legal name in GELLMU source. Most other such names generated by the transliterator violate the naming rule: a name must be alpha-numeric with the first character a letter and the first digit, if any, not the digit zero. These names do appear in the document type definition. A processor for the target LaTeX should remember any symbol declarations in the GELLMU preamble and set each occurrence inside one of the math modes without a generic rendering-instruction using the LaTeX command \mbox on the default generic rendering. If one is processing both for LaTeX and for MathML, then it would be sensible to use an early SGML-to-SGML processor to mark all declared symbols inside math modes. Such a declared symbol name, e.g. galQ, should not be confused with a corresponding command name \galQ; the latter must be in the DTD but not the former. (The two need not be related in any way.) The reader is invited to do one or more of the following: * point out inadequacies in my draft on notation. * improve my draft on notation. * provide code to render the above examples: _________________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.w3.org/Math/ 2. http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/gellmu/notation 3. http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/gellmu/authordtd/ 13-Dec-1998 0:18:01-GMT,4111;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02018 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:17:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA03948; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:01:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412353 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:01:03 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03941 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:00:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12970; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id TAA29345; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:00:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812130000.TAA29345@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:00:48 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Timothy Murphy writes: : On Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 06:05:25PM +0100, Chris Rowley wrote: : : There is a fundamental question about MathML/XML/OpenMath vs TeX/LaTeX : which does not seem to me to have been answered here. : : As I understand it, *ML _parses_ (or tries to parse) maths, No. : while Knuth in his wisdom decided this was impractical. : For example, if I write $AB = CD$ : this might refer to variables AB,CD (perhaps line segments) : or it might refer to products of 4 variables A,B,C,D; I would suggest that in a latex-like document preamble one declare, with something like "\mathsym" the symbols A, B, C, D either as having a type such as "vertex" or else having a type such as "element of an additive group". In either case to obtain recognition of the typed symbols, one should in the body use $A B = C D$ if either "AB" or "CD" is a symbol as declared by another \mathsym. Absent a mathsym declaration the string "AB" in a math zone would be equivalent, by tradition, to "A B". Although I argue that "A B" by default should stand for function composition of A and B when it makes sense, it does not make sense, absent symbol declarations, to assume that A and B are functions that can be composed. The next choice, absent other guidance, is to assume an arithmetic context with juxtaposition standing for multiplication. (But note that I need none of this, other than symbol separation if I don't process math zones specially, to get the representations that I put up in my last posting to latex-l under the subject "notational examples".) : Would I perhaps have to put in an \invisibletimes between A and B? I hope not. : The question is, then: : is it possible to parse mathematics, : and if so, is it wise to try? Don't readers do it? You think that it's based on "visual intelligence"? : [It may be impossible, : because it may be that mathematicians : would refuse to be bound by any particular formal system put forward.] Ay, there's the rub -- certainly for many. Note in particular that mathematical authors have incentive to provide MathML only if they perceive that the *most helpless* of their readers who have browsers also have MathML rendering. It would be helpful if some of the W3C MathML working group (whose emissary usually listens here) would ponder a format for a flexible author-specified type system and provide us with testbed code for generating MathML based on it. -- Bill 13-Dec-1998 15:05:43-GMT,3253;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA17500 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:05:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA16838; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:39:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412596 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:39:39 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16828 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:39:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.138] (sl112.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.138]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06373 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:39:31 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk>; from Chris Rowley on Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 06:05:25PM +0100 <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:39:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981212225407.A29563@maths.tcd.ie> At 22:54 +0000 1998/12/12, Timothy Murphy wrote: >As I understand it, *ML _parses_ (or tries to parse) maths, >while Knuth in his wisdom decided this was impractical. Knuth in _his_ wisdom decided this was impractical to _him_, as he otherwise would have ended up with a much bigger problem. Others realize it must eventually happen, in part because it helps typing mathematically correct formulas, and in part because the formulas may be reused as formulas, and not only a typeset output. >There is a fundamental question about MathML/XML/OpenMath vs TeX/LaTeX >which does not seem to me to have been answered here. So even it was not answered in full, it has been discussed several times. >The question is, then: >is it possible to parse mathematics, >and if so, is it wise to try? > >[It may be impossible, >because it may be that mathematicians >would refuse to be bound by any particular formal system put forward.] I think it will be necessary with something more general, corresponding to the Yacc/Lex programs, simply because it will not be possible to find a generally accepted syntax. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 13-Dec-1998 23:34:30-GMT,2309;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26681 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:34:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA07252; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:00:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412335 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:00:18 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07154 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:58:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.72] (sl52.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.72]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28303 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:58:07 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:59:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812132226.IAA25846@bigted.maths.uq.edu.au> At 08:26 +1000 1998/12/14, Ken Smith wrote: >This would mean that you would restrict the use of A to have one >particular meaning throughout the document. This is quite >unrealistic, in almost any area of mathematics. If one should do actual parsing, I would expect that one must use a series of local contexts, each defining its own grammar and translation rules, that is, in effect a local computer language. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 13-Dec-1998 23:38:59-GMT,3992;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26764 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:38:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA07360; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:04:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412338 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:04:37 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA07353 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:04:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 13 Dec 98 23:04:35 +0000 (GMT) References: <199812130000.TAA29345@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981213230435.A11347@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:04:35 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812130000.TAA29345@hilbert.math.albany.edu>; from William F. Hammond on Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 07:00:48PM -0500 On Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 07:00:48PM -0500, William F. Hammond wrote: > : As I understand it, *ML _parses_ (or tries to parse) maths, > > No. Well, what follows in your posting seems to me precisely an attempt to define a formal language for (ie to parse) mathematics. > I would suggest that in a latex-like document preamble one declare, > with something like "\mathsym" the symbols A, B, C, D either as having > a type such as "vertex" or else having a type such as "element of an > additive group". In other words, you are trying to parse mathematics. I don't know what "vertex" means, but there are many meanings that A B could have, eg A(B) [the value of the function A at B] or (A)B [the value of the function B at A] or the composition of two functions B and A or the composition of A and B, etc etc Are you going to require mathematicians to write f(x) [ie with brackets]? Can they write (x)f if they prefer? > : The question is, then: > : is it possible to parse mathematics, > : and if so, is it wise to try? > > Don't readers do it? You think that it's based on "visual > intelligence"? I don't know what "visual intelligence" is. Yes, a reader parses the mathematical document he is reading, though the word "parse" must be given a wider meaning than normal, to include eg graphical arguments which may be perfectly valid, as eg in categorical diagrams. However, the point is that the formal system used depends on the document, and on the subject matter. There is no "mathematical language" and never will be in my opinion. > : [It may be impossible, > : because it may be that mathematicians > : would refuse to be bound by any particular formal system put forward.] > > Ay, there's the rub -- certainly for many. Note in particular that > mathematical authors have incentive to provide MathML only if they > perceive that the *most helpless* of their readers who have browsers > also have MathML rendering. It seems to me much easier to design a browser that understands LaTeX, or DVI, or PDF, than to persuade mathematicians to write in MathML. Surely the computer should be the slave, not the master. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 13-Dec-1998 23:52:51-GMT,4136;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26999 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:52:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA05621; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:26:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412758 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:26:29 +0100 Received: from abacus.maths.uq.edu.au (abacus.maths.uq.edu.au [130.102.160.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05585 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:26:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from bigted.maths.uq.edu.au (bigted.maths.uq.edu.au [130.102.160.22]) by abacus.maths.uq.edu.au (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA05134 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:26:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from kgs@localhost) by bigted.maths.uq.edu.au (8.8.6/0.0.0) id IAA25846 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:26:09 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <199812132226.IAA25846@bigted.maths.uq.edu.au> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:26:09 +1000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Ken Smith Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L "William F. Hammond" wrote on Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:00:48 -0500 > Timothy Murphy writes: > : On Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 06:05:25PM +0100, Chris Rowley wrote: > : > : There is a fundamental question about MathML/XML/OpenMath vs TeX/LaTeX > : which does not seem to me to have been answered here. > : > : As I understand it, *ML _parses_ (or tries to parse) maths, > No. > : while Knuth in his wisdom decided this was impractical. > : For example, if I write $AB = CD$ > : this might refer to variables AB,CD (perhaps line segments) > : or it might refer to products of 4 variables A,B,C,D; > I would suggest that in a latex-like document preamble one declare, > with something like "\mathsym" the symbols A, B, C, D either as having ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > a type such as "vertex" or else having a type such as "element of an ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > additive group". ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This would mean that you would restrict the use of A to have one particular meaning throughout the document. This is quite unrealistic, in almost any area of mathematics. It might be possible to get away with this if there was some way of specifying the font (or something similar) in the preamble, so that \textrm{A}, \textrm{\textsl{A}}, \textrm{\textit{A}}, \textrm{\textbf{A}}, \textsf{A}, ... all meant something different, and could be handled appropriately. The thought of this sent my mind back to reading "The non-linear field theories of mechanics" by Truesdell and Noll. The authors try to use one symbol to mean one and only one thing throughout the book. The result is a large number of pages simply describing the notation, and a multiplicity of fonts in several languages. I found the book almost unreadable, simply because in the middle of some tricky bit of analysis I had to refer to the notation npages to see just what was under discussion. > In either case to obtain recognition of the typed symbols, one should > in the body use $A B = C D$ if either "AB" or "CD" is a symbol as > declared by another \mathsym. Absent a mathsym declaration the string > "AB" in a math zone would be equivalent, by tradition, to "A B". As I point out above, it's not quite as simple as this. ]rest deleted] > -- Bill Ken Smith kgs@maths.uq.edu.au 14-Dec-1998 10:23:20-GMT,1701;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA09013 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:23:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA24526; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:51:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412521 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:51:20 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24475 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:50:39 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id JAA02896; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:21:35 GMT References: <199812101325.IAA19003@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <13938.39078.837542.25056@fell.open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199812140921.JAA02896@nag.co.uk> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:21:35 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13938.39078.837542.25056@fell.open.ac.uk> (message from Chris Rowley on Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:30:58 +0100) > But perhaps he has been told this by MI5? No, GCHQ. 14-Dec-1998 10:25:37-GMT,3534;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA09020 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:25:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA24087; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:46:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412515 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:46:25 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24056 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:46:02 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id JAA02920; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:45:07 GMT References: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199812140945.JAA02920@nag.co.uk> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:45:07 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> (message from Chris Rowley on Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:05:25 +0100) > Could we please see some examples of MathML, or is it XML, macros that > might appear in a document? It isn't macros really (although the TeX community tends to call anything that results in some code running somewhere, a macro). However you can put in your document whatever you like, within the constraints of XML syntax. So or &MonsterGroup; or whatever. You can (or rather will be able to) then specify in a style sheet how this is supposed to get transformed to MathML. > I have been reliably informed that XSL does not allow specifications > that are expressive enough to do this job (basically since it knows > nothing about maths, in the sense that it has no concept of arithmetic). If you compare the first draft submission of XSL to the first working draft of XSL 1.0, which came out only a few months later, you will see that they are essentially completely different languages. XSL is a rapidly moving target, and currently it is moving behind the closed doors of W3C working group processes, so there is not a lot of point worrying now about any particular lack of features. You just have to have faith that it will be alright on the day. If by chance it is not alright on the day, you will be able to do the transformation in a lower level language, such as java or ecmascript interfacing through the DOM. (You can't do this either at the moment as there are no math formating objects that you can transform to, but the public document does say these will be added in a later draft). Most TeX users will never want to author in XML, however there are many advantages in authoring in tex and transforming to XML (even if eventually the document is printed by transforming back to tex). It gives a mechanism for consistency checking and communicating with the wider non-tex world, that is simply not available in an all-tex solution. David 14-Dec-1998 10:59:15-GMT,5186;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA09452 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:59:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA03231; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:34:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412685 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:34:19 +0100 Received: from ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.232.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03193 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:34:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13947 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:34:14 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id LAA13591; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:41:00 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <199812141041.LAA13591@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:41:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Layout parameters in LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hello all, [second try here after an almost unanswered posting on ctt] I'm still trying to find the graal of good typography with (la)tex. My impression is as simple as: tex is very good at horizontal things (H&J) and very bad for vertical spacing. Now, it is rather obvious that latex has been conceived as a backend of a markup system, not really as a typographical tool, hence the loose spacing/penalties everywhere. My question is about real typesetting with the constraint to beat Xpress on H&J (easy) _and_ on page layout (hard!). I'm trying to find reasonnable parameters for latex so that -- vertical skips do not stretch and shrink at will (in particular, i kill the glue in line skips (and \z@skip), i also kill it in most trivlist environments; i reduce it at parskips and pre/post section skips. -- hopefully the text lines snap to an underlying grid. -- two facing pages have the same page geometry (here i mean that i don't want ragged bottom, i'd want in fact that \enlargethispage enlarges also the facing page!). -- I want no widows at all, i'd be less definitive for orphans, but i don't like them either, hence \widowpenalty=10000 \displaywidowpenalty=8000 \predisplaypenalty=7000 -- I want a good quality and homogeneity of the page colour, hence \tolerance600 \pretolerance300 \badness=2000 \adjdemerits=10000 (but i don't really `feel' these number's effect anyway) -- i want to have two levels of text units, the lowest being called `alinea' (i make them currently with essentially \def\alinea{\newline\indent}, hence without any demerits for widow or orphans at this level... there should be some), the other being \par. This is a real problem, BTW. Because it may happen that in textual documents, one 10 pages section contains only alineas (no blank lines), and i believe that most of TeX and LaTeX is expecting rather short paragraphs (for instance, \thispagestyle{empty} mayu have very surprizing effects when the only paragraph is 10 pages long). But if i declare alineas as \par (\parskip=\z@) and code explicitly paragraphs with \par\vskip\baselineskip, then i have now awy to distinguish awful paragraph widows from (almost) harmless alinea widows. -- i don't really care about too many hyphenated lines (i prefer them to bad grey, or widows/orphans, but i'd like to prevent too many consecutive hyphenated lines, say more than 4 be prohibited, i'd also be happy with a parameter handling the ratio hyphenated/nonhyphenated text lines in a page) but i don't want to see a hyphen at an odd page break, & i'd prefer not to see one at the end of a paragraph or even page. This is thus maybe too restrictive: \brokenpenalty=10000 \finalhyphendemerits=10000 ****************************** Well, when i simply gently ask tex to do what seems the minimal requirements of quality typography by setting the parameters to \pm the values above, it appears that it can't do its job anymore, it stretchs infinitely my tiny vertical glue to find a page break, it removes up to 2 lines from a page because of widow/broken control, etc. Now, i'd like to ask you all super gurus if you came up with some usable system approaching reasonnably my typographical constraints and tex mechanisms. Thanks for reading this lengthy post, if any reader comes up to _this_ line! --- Thierry Bouche, Grenoble. 14-Dec-1998 11:21:54-GMT,4676;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA09744 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 04:21:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12982; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:04:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412728 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:04:27 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12963 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:04:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA19317; hop 0; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:55:49 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:03:37 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13940.60275.707096.141106@srahtz> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:41:55 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > > internally the PDF model is simplistic - but then who *has* > > implemented anything better in mainstream software? > > As a model of what is it simplistic? as a model of hypertex requirements. it does not permit support targets, for instance > Some of it is the opposite of > simplistic, being over-speciliased and baroque. thats just the syntax, i assume? > And what are the `internals of a model' in this context? the features it supports, as opposed to the user syntax > But perhaps he just mean its model of links and other hyper-stuff? yes > And even more important to implement the infrastructure to make > something like pdfLaTeX (eg context;-) able to easily, portably and > transparently convert logical browser formats into well-formatted and > well-typeset documents (for both screen and paper) described in some > sufficientlly rich, device-independent language. oh, you've read the XSL spec then? > > by which we see why LaTeX is unpopular in production workflows. that > > translates to "10% failure" > > 10% failure would be heaven in our production typesetting environment if they get more than 10% failure, why in heaven do they persist? it sounds like total madness > (and we do not see any efficiency gain from sending the stuff > across the world to be keyboarded ... but this probably > short-sighted). probably it is. a typical data entry firm will get you *very* high quality useable eg SGML files. predictable cost, predictable processing. no more catcodes. > But we still have enough people around who recall the problems we used > to have with 30% failure in a galley/paste-up hard-copy external > typeseting system: even 40% failure with electronic typesetting/editing > is, for them, absolute zen already! poor souls > > a new language, using XML syntax, to say whatever you want > > xy > > (forget the verbose syntax for now), and then provide the XSL > > transformation script which maps that to presentational MathML. > > I have been reliably informed that XSL does not allow specifications > that are expressive enough to do this job since XSL does not exist, your informant clearly has Powers. > basically since it knows > nothing about maths, in the sense that it has no concept of arithmetic). sounds like a computer reincarnation of me > > Would this not create similar portability/conversion/parsing problems > > that we have with TeX now if this were sufficiently powerful? yes. but we'd be playing in the same swimming pool as the rest of the > > world sebastian 14-Dec-1998 11:22:08-GMT,2858;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA09741 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 04:21:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12783; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:02:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412723 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:02:41 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12741 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:02:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA19179; hop 0; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:53:36 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:01:57 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199811271514.KAA22026@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <13922.59462.279452.122152@fell.open.ac.uk> <13923.45842.264051.790964@srahtz> <199812121442.PAA23256@baghira.npc.de> Message-ID: <13940.58122.82745.913275@srahtz> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:06:02 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812121442.PAA23256@baghira.npc.de> Joachim Schrod writes: > Do you really want to tell us that TEI is not one of the most complex > DTDs that ever got written? no. but its used quite a lot. > Docbook is not an easily understandable one, either. plenty of people seem to manage with it > Could you please bring in other examples? These currently support the > hypothesis that it's "tortuosly difficult". the fact that Docbook and TEI are themselves complex does not demonstrate that the extensibiliy features were/are hard to add. no, i dont have any other convincing examples. but if i asked you to develop a DTD, and said I wanted some extensibility, you would say "sure, no problem, lets see what you need", i bet. sebastian 14-Dec-1998 11:25:14-GMT,2967;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA09776 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 04:24:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12735; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:02:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412720 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:02:16 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12713 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:02:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA19176; hop 0; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:53:35 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:01:47 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199811261227.NAA14424@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199811261313.NAA28971@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> <199812121438.PAA23249@baghira.npc.de> Message-ID: <13940.57959.232102.50451@srahtz> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:03:19 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812121438.PAA23249@baghira.npc.de> Joachim Schrod writes: > MS Word is a fu**ing bad, brain-dead program. Compared to other how come so many people continue to use it? like they eat hamburgers and drink coca-cola, I suppose. > loosing), etc. Being forced to use MS Word always means to raise > project prices. oh, *thats* why its used.... > infrastructure base. No, IMNSHO XML is not usable for authors, and I > don't see this changing in the near or mid-term future. It's too > inconvenient, return on personal investment is too low, and there are > no tools in sight that will change this. a few million people use LaTeX, which is inconvenient, has a vile syntax, no interface, effectively no commercial tool support, etc. i concur with your analysis. but what now? waste more time on the varied evils of Word and LaTeX? or try to get the XML tools written? sebastian 14-Dec-1998 12:16:23-GMT,3334;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA10417 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 05:16:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA17557; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:49:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412830 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:49:47 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17544 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:49:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.82] (sl62.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.82]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21039 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:49:43 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <199812130000.TAA29345@hilbert.math.albany.edu>; from William F. Hammond on Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 07:00:48PM -0500 <199812130000.TAA29345@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:50:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981213230435.A11347@maths.tcd.ie> At 23:04 +0000 1998/12/13, Timothy Murphy wrote: >However, the point is that the formal system used >depends on the document, and on the subject matter. >There is no "mathematical language" and never will be in my opinion. There is a mathematical language in the same sense as there are human languages, of course. Then the question is in what sense this translates into a computer language: When I analyzed the syntax of elementary functions, it turns out that indeed, it is possible to defined a syntax which properly handles such things such as that one is allowed to with sin x, mixed with functions f(x), implicit multiplications a v, and so on: The syntax simply becomes more complicated and sophisticated than the various available computer languages. One could not expect though that a single fixed syntax would encompass all of mathematics and its different possible uses. So I think the opposite is true: Eventually, there will certainly be a mathematical computer language, which can be used to provide the mathematical semantic information. It will come eventually, because it can be built over time, but it is not otherwise very straightforward to do it, as math is rather complicated, so it will not come very easily. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 14-Dec-1998 13:03:57-GMT,2839;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA11051 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:03:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA21527; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:30:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412919 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:30:34 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21520 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:30:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.82] (sl124.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.150]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24460 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:30:29 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> (message from Chris Rowley on Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:05:25 +0100) <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:30:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812140945.JAA02920@nag.co.uk> At 09:45 +0000 1998/12/14, David Carlisle wrote: >Most TeX users will never want to author in XML, however there are many >advantages in authoring in tex and transforming to XML (even if >eventually the document is printed by transforming back to tex). >It gives a mechanism for consistency checking and communicating with >the wider non-tex world, that is simply not available in an all-tex >solution. One could just as well make a new computer language designed for authoring, with the parsing capabilities that TeX lacks, translating into say XML (or TeX, as you wish). The problem with translating into TeX is that it eventually compiles into DVI files, which are too restricted for use on WWW. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 14-Dec-1998 13:39:17-GMT,2375;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA11499 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:39:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA24810; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:02:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412955 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:02:56 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24784 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:02:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id MAA24165; hop 0; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:54:13 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:02:34 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:40:23 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > > The problem with translating into TeX is that it eventually compiles into > DVI files, which are too restricted for use on WWW. > speak for yourself. my .tex files compile into PDF, thanks... sebastian (or .html when I need to) 14-Dec-1998 14:04:27-GMT,3259;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA11850 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:04:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA26752; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:22:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412969 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:22:12 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26715 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:21:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05460; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id IAA10202; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:21:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812141321.IAA10202@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:21:20 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L : Well, what follows in your posting : seems to me precisely an attempt to define a formal language for : (ie to parse) mathematics. No. It is an attempt to enable authors, if they wish, to include enough information so that a sgml or xml processor can set the math environments into MathML. : I don't know what "vertex" means, Under a formal typing system of this kind, it need only have meaning relative to the article context. : but there are many meanings that A B could have, : eg A(B) [the value of the function A at B] : or (A)B [the value of the function B at A] : or the composition of two functions B and A : or the composition of A and B, : etc etc : Are you going to require mathematicians to write f(x) [ie with brackets]? : Can they write (x)f if they prefer? Perhaps you neglected to the follow the reference to http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/gellmu/notation . : It seems to me much easier to design a browser that understands LaTeX, : or DVI, or PDF, than to persuade mathematicians to write in MathML. : Surely the computer should be the slave, not the master. One of my objectives here is to make it possible for a two-tiered system of publication to emerge in which one tier -- beautifully typeset documents -- is sold (as now by journal publishers) and the other tier is available free on the web. If the documents in the second tier are well constructed it should be easily possible to do notation based searches in a sound way and to enable, consistent with the plans of the MathML folk, computer algebra systems to digest clipped segments. -- Bill 14-Dec-1998 14:25:00-GMT,2367;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA12159 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:24:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA00289; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:58:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 412991 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:58:29 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00272 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:58:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.57] (sl37.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.57]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03378 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:58:25 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:48:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> At 12:40 +0000 1998/12/14, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > my .tex files compile into PDF, thanks... I would be great if PdfTeX, and some of the other TeX extensions could be built togeter and elevated to a common standard. Does DVI have any advantages over PDF? Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 14-Dec-1998 14:50:36-GMT,2768;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA12534 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:50:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA07350; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:25:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413153 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:25:10 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA07255 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:24:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id OAA27114; hop 0; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:16:14 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:24:29 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:10:31 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > > my .tex files compile into PDF, thanks... > > I would be great if PdfTeX, and some of the other TeX extensions could be > built togeter and elevated to a common standard. well, the major TeX "kits" have done this. anything based on web2c has pdftex there already, and so does MikTeX > Does DVI have any advantages over PDF? do you really want to open this can of worms? :-} answer: yes, theoretically; no, in practice. many people will reply that "xdvi is the best viewer I know" or "i can't get acrobat for my platform". but are those "advantages of dvi" sebastian 14-Dec-1998 15:15:47-GMT,3395;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13251 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:15:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA13864; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:54:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413231 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:54:48 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13850 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:54:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id IAA15507; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:54:45 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <199812141454.IAA15507@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:54:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The following header lines retained to affect attribution: |Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:48:37 +0100 |Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project |From: Hans Aberg |Subject: Re: portable LaTeX |To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L |At 12:40 +0000 1998/12/14, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: |> my .tex files compile into PDF, thanks... |I would be great if PdfTeX, and some of the other TeX extensions could be |built togeter and elevated to a common standard. |Does DVI have any advantages over PDF? DVI ==> Device Independent Not all displays (printers, etc.) are Adobe PostScript PDF capable. Not all Adobe PostScript capable displays are Adobe PostScript PDF capable! Primarily Adobe PostScript PDF is a method of Adobe, Inc., to reduce Adobe's problems with thief for their fonts which is quite easy to do if the fonts are included within an Adobe PostScript file. If one remains with the almost universal Apple LaserWriter basic 13 fonts and the TeX bitmapped fonts, then the files are more portable than when Adobe PDF is used. An Adobe PDF can not be repaired readily with the usual UNIX command line tools; most Adobe PostScript files can be repaired by such means.. | Hans Aberg | * Email: Hans Aberg | * Home Page: | * AMS member listing: Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 14-Dec-1998 15:30:14-GMT,2572;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13541 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:30:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA14153; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:57:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413240 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:57:23 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14144 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:57:21 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id IAA15514 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:57:21 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:57:21 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The following header lines retained to affect attribution: |Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:40:23 +0000 |Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project |From: Sebastian Rahtz |Subject: Re: portable LaTeX |To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L |Hans Aberg writes: | > | > The problem with translating into TeX is that it eventually compiles into | > DVI files, which are too restricted for use on WWW. | > |speak for yourself. my .tex files compile into PDF, thanks... |sebastian |(or .html when I need to) Address that problem by using dvips and then ps2pdf, or dvipdf, if it exists. Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 14-Dec-1998 16:13:33-GMT,3741;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14656 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:13:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA19404; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:45:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413347 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:45:08 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19352 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:44:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15035; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id KAA11333; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:43:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812141543.KAA11333@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:43:19 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L David Carlisle writes: : > I have been reliably informed that XSL does not allow specifications : > that are expressive enough to do this job (basically since it knows : > nothing about maths, in the sense that it has no concept of arithmetic). : : If you compare the first draft submission of XSL to the first working : draft of XSL 1.0, which came out only a few months later, you will : see that they are essentially completely different languages. : XSL is a rapidly moving target, and currently it is moving behind the : closed doors of W3C working group processes, so there is not a lot of : point worrying now about any particular lack of features. You just have : to have faith that it will be alright on the day. ... An XSL that is capable of transforming a reasonable authoring DTD, relative to which documents can be marked up for those who so choose in LaTeX-like notation, to HTML-extended-by-MathML (should I say HTML-Voyager-extended-by-MathML?) would be great! (Re Voyager: http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html-in-xml/ see also Dave Raggett's "tidy".) Let's hope that it happens. Any target date? Of course, if browsers are not equipped to handle the full power of this new XSL, then it remains an authoring vehicle only, parallel to many other possible in-house vehicles. If this new XSL can be assumed reliably available at client sites, then more things become possible. For one thing the requirements for good browser display are somewhat less burdensome than the requirements of segment clipping for processing by computer algebra systems. There would then be a number of ways for a given author to proceed using one or more XMLs along with different stylesheets in order to distribute the processing burden in such a way as to avoid processing that is not needed. For example, one could serve an XML document with a display-stylesheet; the document may still contain enough information so that more elaborate client site processing with another stylesheet would enable math segments to be clipped into a computer algebra system. -- Bill 14-Dec-1998 16:20:39-GMT,2575;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14867 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:20:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA19169; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:43:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413344 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:43:30 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19119 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:43:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id PAA00379; hop 0; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:34:39 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:42:58 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:26:48 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Randolph J. Herber writes: > > Address that problem by using dvips and then ps2pdf, or dvipdf, if do people realize there is now a "dvipdfm" on the free market? not perfect yet, but does pretty well, if thats your bag. follow links on http://www.tug.org/interest.html why i should want to do tex->dvi->dvips->ps2pdf->pdf when i can do tex->pdf, with much higher quality, i am not sure :-} sebastian 14-Dec-1998 16:22:04-GMT,3478;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14995 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:22:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA20336; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:55:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413361 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:55:29 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA20327 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:55:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.57] (sl63.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.83]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13520 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:55:24 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:55:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> At 14:10 +0000 1998/12/14, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >do you really want to open this can of worms? :-} Here we go... :-) >many people will reply that "xdvi is the best viewer I know" or "i can't get >acrobat for my platform". but are those "advantages of dvi" I think that Netscape comes with a PDF plugin, for inline PDF displays. At 08:54 -0600 1998/12/14, Randolph J. Herber wrote: >If one remains with the almost universal Apple LaserWriter basic 13 fonts >and the TeX bitmapped fonts, then the files are more portable than when >Adobe PDF is used. I do not think one is required to include the fonts in PDF; at XXX, one can even choose what fonts one wants to use (Mac PS CM or regular CM). >An Adobe PDF can not be repaired readily with the >usual UNIX command line tools; most Adobe PostScript files can be repaired >by such means.. I think there is a binary PS, too, which would be as difficult to repair as any other binary format... At 08:57 -0600 1998/12/14, Randolph J. Herber wrote: >|...my .tex files compile into PDF, thanks... >Address that problem by using dvips and then ps2pdf, or dvipdf, if it exists. This does not work with embedded links. Clearly the disadvantage with PDF is that it is a commercial product, and that it is somewhat too primitive to be used as a WWW-bytecode standard. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 14-Dec-1998 16:42:41-GMT,3279;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15444 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:41:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA22865; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:21:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413397 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:21:37 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22847 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:21:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id QAA02087; hop 0; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:12:40 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:20:38 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <13941.14634.849612.81425@srahtz> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:13:30 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > I think that Netscape comes with a PDF plugin, for inline PDF displays. Adobe produce plugins for IE and Netscape, but that assumes there is an Acrobat for your platform ... > I do not think one is required to include the fonts in PDF; at XXX, one can > even choose what fonts one wants to use (Mac PS CM or regular CM). you must include symbol fonts, or you really well get bizarre results... > >Address that problem by using dvips and then ps2pdf, or dvipdf, if it exists. > > This does not work with embedded links. sorry? of course it does > Clearly the disadvantage with PDF is that it is a commercial > product, and "PDF" is a language specification written and owned by Adobe, but fully published. "Acrobat" is Adobe's implementation, and a commercial product. At least a dozen other implementations exist of some sort (ie of a reader, writer, PS distiller, programmers API). to me, thats not a bad deal. > that it is somewhat too primitive to be used as a WWW-bytecode standard. whatever that might be! sebastian 14-Dec-1998 17:15:46-GMT,2318;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16320 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:15:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA25783; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:51:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413438 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:51:29 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA25767 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:51:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 14 Dec 98 16:51:26 +0000 (GMT) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:51:25 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 02:48:37PM +0100 On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 02:48:37PM +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: > > Does DVI have any advantages over PDF? Obviously it has the advantage that it can be translated into other languages, eg PostScript and PDF. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 14-Dec-1998 17:27:35-GMT,2906;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16722 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:27:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA26291; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:58:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413443 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:57:58 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA26284 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:57:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 14 Dec 98 16:57:58 +0000 (GMT) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141454.IAA15507@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981214165757.C29182@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:57:57 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812141454.IAA15507@dcdrjh.fnal.gov>; from Randolph J. Herber on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 08:54:45AM -0600 On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 08:54:45AM -0600, Randolph J. Herber wrote: > Primarily Adobe PostScript PDF is a method of Adobe, Inc., to reduce Adobe's > problems with thief for their fonts which is quite easy to do if the fonts > are included within an Adobe PostScript file. I don't think that is the primary motivation for PDF, and I'm not sure if it is true anyway. Adobe has published the encryption/decryption algorithms for PFB font files. To my mind, the fundamental point about PDF (as opposed to PostScript) is that it is object-oriented, a PDF document consisting essentially of a collection of PDF objects. > If one remains with the almost universal Apple LaserWriter basic 13 fonts > and the TeX bitmapped fonts, then the files are more portable than when > Adobe PDF is used. This isn't much use for maths, of course. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 14-Dec-1998 17:39:06-GMT,2984;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17035 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:39:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA27223; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:09:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413455 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:09:00 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA27213 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:08:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 14 Dec 98 17:08:58 +0000 (GMT) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:08:57 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz>; from Sebastian Rahtz on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 03:26:48PM +0000 On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 03:26:48PM +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > why i should want to do tex->dvi->dvips->ps2pdf->pdf when i can do > tex->pdf, with much higher quality, i am not sure :-} I believe the discussion here, and on the pdftex mailing list, provide very strong arguments for using a "mid-language" like DVI. It's madness, in my view, to modify the TeX engine in order to allow inclusion of particular graphic formats. And the discussion about the internal semantics of new pdfTeX primitives, most of which would be far better dealt with as \special's in a DVI file, leads me to conclude that pdfTeX and Knuth TeX are rapidly diverging. (Fortunately Thanh seems far more conservative than his followers.) While Thanh's pdfTeX is a marvellous piece of work, which satisfied an urgent need, in my view it is fundamentally misconceived, and will in time be replaced by a version based on possibly extended DVI. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 14-Dec-1998 18:25:26-GMT,2433;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18308 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:24:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA01391; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:01:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413483 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:01:25 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA01376 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:01:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 14 Dec 98 18:01:21 +0000 (GMT) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981214180120.E29182@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:01:20 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 04:55:25PM +0100 On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 04:55:25PM +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: > > Clearly the disadvantage with PDF is that it is a commercial product, and > that it is somewhat too primitive to be used as a WWW-bytecode standard. > Is it any more (or less) commercial than PostScript? -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 14-Dec-1998 18:42:39-GMT,2637;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18782 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:42:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02818; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:19:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413509 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:19:09 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02792 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:19:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.57] (sl121.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.147]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26403 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:18:59 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 02:48:37PM +0100 <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:11:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> At 16:51 +0000 1998/12/14, Timothy Murphy wrote: >On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 02:48:37PM +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: >> >> Does DVI have any advantages over PDF? > >Obviously it has the advantage that it can be translated >into other languages, eg PostScript and PDF. Why is this an advantage _over_ say PDF? Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 14-Dec-1998 18:42:40-GMT,3238;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18783 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:42:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02839; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:19:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413512 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:19:15 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02805 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:19:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.57] (sl121.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.147]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26411 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:19:02 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz>; from Sebastian Rahtz on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 03:26:48PM +0000 <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:19:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> At 17:08 +0000 1998/12/14, Timothy Murphy wrote: >I believe the discussion here, and on the pdftex mailing list, >provide very strong arguments for using a "mid-language" like DVI. >It's madness, in my view, to modify the TeX engine >in order to allow inclusion of particular graphic formats. What modifications do they do in pdfTeX? Otherwise, a weakness of TeX is of course that it does not handle inclusion of other formats well, that there is no standard for: My guess is that one should perhaps use an IDL API, defining the positioning of the inline graphics. If TeX should handle such new primitives, then TeX needs something more radical than merely an extension. >While Thanh's pdfTeX is a marvellous piece of work, >which satisfied an urgent need, >in my view it is fundamentally misconceived, >and will in time be replaced by a version based on possibly extended DVI. But will an extended DVI suffice as a new byte-code for WWW publishing? Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 14-Dec-1998 18:44:41-GMT,2079;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18840 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:44:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA03053; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:21:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413515 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:21:13 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03042 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:21:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27555 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:21:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id NAA13660 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:20:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812141820.NAA13660@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:20:56 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Timothy Murphy writes: > Is it any more (or less) commercial than PostScript? In principle one may "print" a DVI without using Tom Rokicki's excellent dvi driver "dvips" for PostScript printers or its children. I wonder how many of us using "dvips" actually have printers that speak PostScript natively? -- Bill 14-Dec-1998 18:45:52-GMT,2855;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18867 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:45:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02793; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:19:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413506 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:19:00 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02782 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:18:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.57] (sl121.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.147]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26394 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:18:55 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:04:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13941.14634.849612.81425@srahtz> At 16:13 +0000 1998/12/14, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > >Address that problem by using dvips and then ps2pdf, or dvipdf, if it >exists. > > > > This does not work with embedded links. >sorry? of course it does That is, dvips and then ps2pdf, because neither has standrads for embedded links. (Or are you claiming otherwise?) > > Clearly the disadvantage with PDF is that it is a commercial > > product, and >"PDF" is a language specification written and owned by Adobe, but >fully published. ... > >to me, thats not a bad deal. But that may not suffice if the language standard is owned by Adobe, and Adobe wants to have a say in its use. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 14-Dec-1998 18:50:38-GMT,3313;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19000 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:50:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA03606; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:28:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413521 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:28:11 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03597 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:28:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.57] (sl47.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.67]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27193 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:27:54 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 04:55:25PM +0100 <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:27:52 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981214180120.E29182@maths.tcd.ie> At 18:01 +0000 1998/12/14, Timothy Murphy wrote: >> Clearly the disadvantage with PDF is that it is a commercial product, and >> that it is somewhat too primitive to be used as a WWW-bytecode standard. >Is it any more (or less) commercial than PostScript? I recall that these are made by the same company, so they probably sport the same problems. As an example of the problems that may arise is the story of Display PostScript, which companies such as Apple decided to not use, because they felt Adobe was overcharging the license fees. Then Apple was one of the companies helping starting Adobe, in order to help forwarding electronic typesetting. And now, ehen DPS is no longer hot, it will appear in Apple's next OS, Rhapsody. So with those commercial products, one must expect that everybody tries to bust everybody. It may still happen that things may forward in a more open-minded fashion, but you cannot count on it. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 14-Dec-1998 18:52:10-GMT,5707;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19080 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:52:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA03362; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:24:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413518 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:24:48 +0100 Received: from ixgate01.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate01.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.1]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03354 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:24:45 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:24:38 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:24:26 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:24:20 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN2 in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:24:32 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<13941.21350.836780.848801@fell.] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: portable ... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de>, <199812140945.JAA02920@nag.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13941.21350.836780.848801@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:24:32 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812140945.JAA02920@nag.co.uk> David Carlisle wrote -- > > Could we please see some examples of MathML, or is it XML, macros that > > might appear in a document? > > It isn't macros really (although the TeX community tends to call > anything that results in some code running somewhere, a macro). > > However you can put in your document whatever you like, within > the constraints of XML syntax. So or &MonsterGroup; > or whatever. You can (or rather will be able to) then specify in a style > sheet how this is supposed to get transformed to MathML. So you cannot put these specs into the document itself How will they typicaly look like? Is there anything corresponding to macro parameters? > > > I have been reliably informed that XSL does not allow specifications > > that are expressive enough to do this job (basically since it knows > > nothing about maths, in the sense that it has no concept of arithmetic). > > If you compare the first draft submission of XSL to the first working > draft of XSL 1.0, which came out only a few months later, you will > see that they are essentially completely different languages. I am not sure what I studied, but it was in mid-1997. > XSL is a rapidly moving target, and currently it is moving behind the > closed doors of W3C working group processes, so there is not a lot of > point worrying now about any particular lack of features. On the contrary, worry is all we can do, given the fate of other attempts at formatting specification languages and their imposed model of what a formatter is, what it can do and what interfaces it provides. > You just have to have faith that it will be alright on the day. I have faith in very little these days; but this is one area in which I have nver had any. If by chance it is not > alright on the day, you will be able to do the transformation in a lower > level language, such as java or ecmascript interfacing through the DOM. What is the DOM? > (You can't do this either at the moment as there are no math formating > objects that you can transform to, but the public document does say > these will be added in a later draft). But what will "these" be? Will they be extensible (not so much the maths ones, I am more worried about the pargaraph ones)? > > Most TeX users will never want to author in XML, however there are many > advantages in authoring in tex and transforming to XML (even if > eventually the document is printed by transforming back to tex). That sounds very sensible but we (and I really do mean almost exclusively the readers of this list) therefore need to ensure that we can easily plug-in something based on TeX as the formatter for XML; and we need to do this well before Sebastian send his crawler out across the world mangling every TeX documant he can find into XML. The race is afoot!:-) > It gives a mechanism for consistency checking and communicating with > the wider non-tex world, that is simply not available in an all-tex > solution. Agreed, although the world of those who understand the idea of a platform-indpendent, programmable system for document processing (as provided uniquely at present by TeX-related systems) and formatting seems far wider to me than the world of those shackled to what giant corporations, and sebastian, think is making people happy. chris 14-Dec-1998 19:19:26-GMT,2495;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19844 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:19:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA05157; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:50:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413544 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:50:55 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA05148 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:50:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 14 Dec 98 18:50:52 +0000 (GMT) References: ; <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:50:52 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 07:11:00PM +0100 On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 07:11:00PM +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: > >Obviously it has the advantage that it can be translated > >into other languages, eg PostScript and PDF. > > Why is this an advantage _over_ say PDF? Because 2 > 1. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 14-Dec-1998 19:27:28-GMT,3920;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20091 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:27:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA06227; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:05:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413556 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:05:35 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA06216 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:05:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 14 Dec 98 19:05:32 +0000 (GMT) References: <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz>; <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981214190530.B8449@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:05:31 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 07:19:17PM +0100 On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 07:19:17PM +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: > >It's madness, in my view, to modify the TeX engine > >in order to allow inclusion of particular graphic formats. > > What modifications do they do in pdfTeX? I don't understand the question. Since TeX does not understand graphics in any format while pdfTeX does, there is obviously a modification, as indeed is clear from pdftex.ch @# {data structure of images; for |pdf_image_node| and |pdf_ref_form_node| the identifier of XObject will be store in |obj_info| of coresponding object in |obj_tab|} @d pdf_image_node_size == 5 {size of whatsit node for image} @d pdf_image_info(#) == mem[# + 4].int {pointer to hold data structures in external \.{libpng} library} @d obj_image_ptr == obj_aux {pointer to image structure} However, my main point was that since pdftex is a single monolithic program, every additional graphics format -- PDF, PS, TIFF, etc -- must involve further modification to pdfTeX itself. > >While Thanh's pdfTeX is a marvellous piece of work, > >which satisfied an urgent need, > >in my view it is fundamentally misconceived, > >and will in time be replaced by a version based on possibly extended DVI. > > But will an extended DVI suffice as a new byte-code for WWW publishing? I take more or less the opposite view to that generally expressed here. In my view, it is up to browsers to accept generally accepted formats like PDF or DVI -- it's not up to the outside world to try to convert information into the format expected by the browser. I would expect browsers to define something like a Java interface, with the understanding that they will display anything which implements this interface. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 14-Dec-1998 21:35:00-GMT,2755;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28287 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:34:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA14426; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:18:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413633 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:18:03 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14415 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:18:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.57] (sl82.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.108]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09776 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:17:58 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 07:11:00PM +0100 ; <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:11:03 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> At 18:50 +0000 1998/12/14, Timothy Murphy wrote: >> >Obviously it has the advantage that it can be translated >> >into other languages, eg PostScript and PDF. >> >> Why is this an advantage _over_ say PDF? > >Because 2 > 1. I don't see the connection; please explain. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 14-Dec-1998 21:35:04-GMT,4424;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28288 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:34:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA14458; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:18:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413636 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:18:19 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14428 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:18:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.57] (sl82.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.108]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09781; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:18:01 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 07:19:17PM +0100 <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz>; <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:18:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981214190530.B8449@maths.tcd.ie> At 19:05 +0000 1998/12/14, Timothy Murphy wrote: >> >It's madness, in my view, to modify the TeX engine >> >in order to allow inclusion of particular graphic formats. >> >> What modifications do they do in pdfTeX? > >I don't understand the question. >Since TeX does not understand graphics in any format while pdfTeX does, >there is obviously a modification, as indeed is clear from pdftex.ch Depending wether the way of TeX parsing is changed, or if it merely compiles to PDF instead of DVI. >However, my main point was that since pdftex is a single monolithic program, >every additional graphics format -- PDF, PS, TIFF, etc -- >must involve further modification to pdfTeX itself. This is however a core question: So does PDF not itself allow inclusion of other formats like say GIF, JPEG? >> But will an extended DVI suffice as a new byte-code for WWW publishing? > >I take more or less the opposite view to that generally expressed here. >In my view, it is up to browsers to accept >generally accepted formats like PDF or DVI -- >it's not up to the outside world >to try to convert information into the format expected by the browser. If you want it that way, you still need a WWW byte-code that allows the inclusion of such formats. So you are back to the same problem. >I would expect browsers to define something like a Java interface, >with the understanding that they will display anything >which implements this interface. That is already outdated as a computer language technique: One uses something called an IDL (Interface Definition Language), which defines an abtsract language for such purposes. (See for example the ASDL .) However, that is on the (higher) computer language level. The byte-code level is the JVM (Java Virtual Machine), which seems to correspond to the (extended) DVI, PDF and such formats. So I think you need two wholly independent things: A "graphical" JVM type byte-code, plus some compputer languages to handle that. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 14-Dec-1998 21:39:55-GMT,4962;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28444 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:39:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA14731; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:24:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413645 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:24:28 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14724 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:24:25 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA16580; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:24:23 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <199812142124.PAA16580@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:24:23 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The following header lines retained to affect attribution: |Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:55:25 +0100 |Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project |From: Hans Aberg |Subject: Re: portable LaTeX |To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L ... |At 08:54 -0600 1998/12/14, Randolph J. Herber wrote: |>If one remains with the almost universal Apple LaserWriter basic 13 fonts |>and the TeX bitmapped fonts, then the files are more portable than when |>Adobe PDF is used. |I do not think one is required to include the fonts in PDF; at XXX, one can |even choose what fonts one wants to use (Mac PS CM or regular CM). Beyond the ``Apple LaserWriter basic 13 fonts'', PDF does include bitmapped fonts and characters at the sizes actually used and for the characters actually used the fonts used by the file. This is because there is no way of predicting what fonts are available when viewed at the remote location. |>An Adobe PDF can not be repaired readily with the |>usual UNIX command line tools; most Adobe PostScript files can be repaired |>by such means.. |I think there is a binary PS, too, which would be as difficult to repair as |any other binary format... No, the Adobe PostScript Language Reference Manual in both the first and second edition state that ``the standard character set for ASCII-encoded PostScript language programs is the printable subset of the ASCII character set, plus the characters space, tab, and newline (return or line-feed).'' There are binary forms for PostScript language level 2 and for Display 2 called binary token and binary object sequences. The second edition APLRM onserves that these should be used when space or communications bandwidth (if 8-bit safe) conservation are the most important considerations. |At 08:57 -0600 1998/12/14, Randolph J. Herber wrote: |>|...my .tex files compile into PDF, thanks... |>Address that problem by using dvips and then ps2pdf, or dvipdf, if it exists. |This does not work with embedded links. Why would not it work? I used `dvipdf' as a generic name for a hypothetical dvto-to-pdf converter is the same sense that a dvips program exists for conversion of dvi to Adobe PostScript files. After doing that conversion, the result PDF files could be used in the HTML. The multiple stages could be managed in a CGI script. |Clearly the disadvantage with PDF is that it is a commercial product, and |that it is somewhat too primitive to be used as a WWW-bytecode standard. In my opinion, it is too primitive with very little utility (period). | Hans Aberg | * Email: Hans Aberg | * Home Page: | * AMS member listing: Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 15-Dec-1998 3:04:10-GMT,2793;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA07029 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:04:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA27278; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 03:52:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413020 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 03:52:17 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA27269 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 03:52:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 15 Dec 98 02:52:15 +0000 (GMT) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 02:52:14 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:11:03PM +0100 On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:11:03PM +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: > >> >Obviously it has the advantage that it can be translated > >> >into other languages, eg PostScript and PDF. > >> Why is this an advantage _over_ say PDF? > >Because 2 > 1. > I don't see the connection; please explain. I simply meant that DVI can be translated into many different formats, eg PostScript, PDF, commands for Diablo daisy-wheel printer, etc. In that sense it is obviously more versatile than PDF. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 15-Dec-1998 3:36:40-GMT,4689;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA07648 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:36:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA28093; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:23:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413033 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:23:30 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA28078 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:23:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 15 Dec 98 03:23:29 +0000 (GMT) References: <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz>; <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214190530.B8449@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981215032328.B3729@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 03:23:28 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:18:24PM +0100 On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:18:24PM +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: > >I don't understand the question. > >Since TeX does not understand graphics in any format while pdfTeX does, > >there is obviously a modification, as indeed is clear from pdftex.ch > Depending wether the way of TeX parsing is changed, or if it merely > compiles to PDF instead of DVI. By TeX I mean the program defined by Knuth's tex.web . To use it in any other sense will simply cause confusion. > >However, my main point was that since pdftex is a single monolithic program, > >every additional graphics format -- PDF, PS, TIFF, etc -- > >must involve further modification to pdfTeX itself. > > This is however a core question: So does PDF not itself allow inclusion of > other formats like say GIF, JPEG? I don't think it allows GIFs in any sense; it does allow suitably wrapped JPEG (DCTEncoding). However, you would still need to modify pdfTeX to create the PDF object encapsulating a JPEG (as I am sure Thanh will do in time, if he hasn't already). > >> But will an extended DVI suffice as a new byte-code for WWW publishing? I don't know what that means; I take it that any format in the world can be sent over the "Web". Whether a particular program (browser) can display it is simply up to the program. There is nothing special about browsers, as far as I can see. xdvi is a program that can display remote DVIs; if enough people used it like this it would be called a browser. > >I take more or less the opposite view to that generally expressed here. > >In my view, it is up to browsers to accept > >generally accepted formats like PDF or DVI -- > >it's not up to the outside world > >to try to convert information into the format expected by the browser. > > If you want it that way, you still need a WWW byte-code that allows the > inclusion of such formats. So you are back to the same problem. I don't know what a "WWW byte-code" is, and so I don't understand the rest of your posting. Browsers already "understand" DVI, in the sense that you can set them to run a particular program when they meet a file called foo.dvi . They could be a bit more graceful about it; and I expect they soon will be. The idea that we have to write in HTML -- or any *ML -- because Microsoft and Netscape say so I find bizarre in the extreme; it's like saying we must wear brown shoes if we want to go abroad. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 15-Dec-1998 11:06:58-GMT,2549;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16317 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:06:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA19969; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:33:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413285 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:33:42 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19955 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:33:39 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id KAA22286; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:33:18 GMT References: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de>, <199812140945.JAA02920@nag.co.uk> <13941.21350.836780.848801@fell.open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199812151033.KAA22286@nag.co.uk> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:33:18 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13941.21350.836780.848801@fell.open.ac.uk> (message from Chris Rowley on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:24:32 +0100) > So you cannot put these specs into the document itself you can explicitly link a stylesheet to a document. > How will they typicaly look like? Like XSL (if that is what you are using) > Is there anything corresponding to macro parameters? you can grab arbitrary branches of the dree from the currentg node and re-arange them. > What is the DOM? Sorry been spending too long in w3c lists. The Document Object Model. Basically an API that gives low level access to the parse tree of a document. (And has interfaces from C java python etc) > But what will "these" be? most likely the same as dsssl I would guess (uninformed guess in this case) > Will they be extensible (not so much the > maths ones, I am more worried about the pargaraph ones)? No. But you can define new ones (out of the system) ie in some external language. David. 15-Dec-1998 11:10:36-GMT,3014;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16364 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:10:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21218; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:48:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413291 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:48:05 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21211 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:48:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA21289; hop 0; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:39:14 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:47:27 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <13942.13317.159489.460689@srahtz> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:03:49 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > > > This does not work with embedded links. > >sorry? of course it does > > That is, dvips and then ps2pdf, because neither has standrads for embedded > links. (Or are you claiming otherwise?) ps2pdf implements the Adobe pdfmark syntax for PDF links. i really dont understand what you are saying - if you take a LaTeX document, add hyperref, pass through dvips and ps2pdf, you get PDF with links. ok, you use dvips-specific \special commands to pass raw PS but so what? > >to me, thats not a bad deal. > > But that may not suffice if the language standard is owned by Adobe, and > Adobe wants to have a say in its use. > same as Java, PostScript, HPGL etc then. one is tempted to say "get real" sebastian 15-Dec-1998 11:11:38-GMT,2659;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16395 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:11:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21287; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:48:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413294 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:48:37 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21275 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:48:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA21322; hop 0; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:39:42 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:47:41 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: <13942.13568.442093.669496@srahtz> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:08:00 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > > This is however a core question: So does PDF not itself allow inclusion of > other formats like say GIF, JPEG? > arent we getting away from LaTeX here? if you want to read up on what PDF does and does not do, why not download the spec and peruse it? Sebastian 15-Dec-1998 11:12:25-GMT,5198;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16407 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:12:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21424; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:50:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413303 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:50:03 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21400 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:49:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA21434; hop 0; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:41:24 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:49:15 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812140945.JAA02920@nag.co.uk> <13941.21350.836780.848801@fell.open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13942.15655.945558.913902@srahtz> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:42:47 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13941.21350.836780.848801@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > > or whatever. You can (or rather will be able to) then specify in a style > > sheet how this is supposed to get transformed to MathML. > > So you cannot put these specs into the document itself you can embed a reference to the style sheet. > Is there anything corresponding to macro parameters? give an example of what you want > > If you compare the first draft submission of XSL to the first working > > draft of XSL 1.0, which came out only a few months later, you will > > see that they are essentially completely different languages. > > I am not sure what I studied, but it was in mid-1997. in that case, start all over again. thats eons ago... did XSL _exist_ in mid 1997? > On the contrary, worry is all we can do, given the fate of other > attempts at formatting specification languages and their imposed model > of what a formatter is, what it can do and what interfaces it provides. which are these other attempts? we had FOSI, but who ever used that? and we had DSSSL, which has not been fully implemented by anyone, so i don't see how you can dismiss it out of hand. why do you think people are imposing on you? "they" are "we". join the W3C and get on the XSL committee if you care deeply and have time to contribute. > > alright on the day, you will be able to do the transformation in a lower > > level language, such as java or ecmascript interfacing through the DOM. > > What is the DOM? Document Object Model, a kind of abstract API for XML documents. A W3C recommendation, widely implemented > But what will "these" be? Will they be extensible (not so much the > maths ones, I am more worried about the pargaraph ones)? what is an extensible formatting object? you want to add characteristics? new ones? > That sounds very sensible but we (and I really do mean almost > exclusively the readers of this list) therefore need to ensure that we > can easily plug-in something based on TeX as the formatter for XML; sorry, but the Web world cannot afford to use TeX as a dynamic formatter, its just too heavyweight. for print, maybe, but in that case you'd need to make a reliable batch page formatter macro package. which of course LaTeX is not. face it, conventional TeX/LaTeX as of today cannot meet the demands of automated large scale formatting of XML documents. when you can do multiple columns and single column floats, give us a call... > Agreed, although the world of those who understand the idea of a > platform-indpendent, programmable system for document processing (as > provided uniquely at present by TeX-related systems) and formatting do who cares about platform independence? if you drop that, you can choose from a raft of other formatters which equal or surpass TeX in some ways > seems far wider to me than the world of those shackled to what giant > corporations, and sebastian, think is making people happy. this is getting like an episode of the X Files. shall we get Mulder and Scully to investigate the huge conspiracy to fetter international document formatters? sebastian 15-Dec-1998 11:12:30-GMT,2916;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16406 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:12:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21324; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:48:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413297 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:48:53 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21296 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:48:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA21355; hop 0; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:40:04 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:47:58 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: <13942.13976.360845.807266@srahtz> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:14:48 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> Timothy Murphy writes: > I simply meant that DVI can be translated into many different formats, > eg PostScript, PDF, commands for Diablo daisy-wheel printer, etc. > In that sense it is obviously more versatile than PDF. > on the other hand, I can print my PDF in Acrobat to any device supported by my copy of Windows. ie, a very great deal more devices that those for which there is a dvi driver. When did anyone last write a dvi driver? sebastian 15-Dec-1998 11:13:50-GMT,3800;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16418 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:13:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21392; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:49:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413300 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:49:54 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21369 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:49:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id KAA21417; hop 0; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:41:00 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:48:48 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: <13942.14629.333293.157446@srahtz> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:25:41 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> Timothy Murphy writes: > And the discussion about the internal semantics of new pdfTeX primitives, > most of which would be far better dealt with > as \special's in a DVI file, > leads me to conclude that pdfTeX and Knuth TeX > are rapidly diverging. why is this such a bad thing? Knuth wrote TeX and said "here you go, peeps, do with it what you will, but just make sure that `TeX' remains `TeX'". he never said "if you use my code you must follow all my misguided decisions as if they were tablets of stone" > While Thanh's pdfTeX is a marvellous piece of work, which satisfied > an urgent need, in my view it is fundamentally misconceived, and > will in time be replaced by a version based on possibly extended > DVI. replace "will" with "may conceivably", and I might agree. however, the history of attempts to get any development going in the TeX world is awesomely depressing. leaving aside the truly impressive work done on macro packages, and the solid work on TeX distribution, what have we had in the last 10 years? well, we have eTeX, but i have never met anyone who could get excited about it (maybe I don't move in the right circles), and we have the endless talk about NTS, but that appears to be vapourous. then we have Omega, a marvellous thing which is let down by the apparent fact that its developers cannot work on it regularly. and lastly we have pdfTeX, which is the nearest thing to a runaway success that I at least have seen in TeX world. I think the world is voting with their feet, Tim Sebastian 15-Dec-1998 11:52:07-GMT,3159;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA17123 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:52:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24603; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413335 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:16 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24564 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.21] (sl01.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.21]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16473 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:56 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:11:03PM +0100 <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:11:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> At 02:52 +0000 1998/12/15, Timothy Murphy wrote: >On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:11:03PM +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: > >> >> >Obviously it has the advantage that it can be translated >> >> >into other languages, eg PostScript and PDF. >I simply meant that DVI can be translated into many different formats, >eg PostScript, PDF, commands for Diablo daisy-wheel printer, etc. >In that sense it is obviously more versatile than PDF. But one wants a language that contains as many bells and whistles as is needed, so that one can ensure that the rendering or use on whatever media (WWW, paper, information processing tools) is correct. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 11:53:05-GMT,3880;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA17144 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:52:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24597; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413332 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:11 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24555 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.21] (sl01.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.21]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16459 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:50 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:18:24PM +0100 <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz>; <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214190530.B8449@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:07:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981215032328.B3729@maths.tcd.ie> At 03:23 +0000 1998/12/15, Timothy Murphy wrote: >> >> But will an extended DVI suffice as a new byte-code for WWW publishing? > >I don't know what that means; >I take it that any format in the world can be sent over the "Web". >Whether a particular program (browser) can display it >is simply up to the program. >There is nothing special about browsers, as far as I can see. >xdvi is a program that can display remote DVIs; >if enough people used it like this it would be called a browser. The display of the WWW browser itself must use a language of some kind to display its graphicla information, links and such (telling where each spot is supposed to be), not to be confused with the language originating the display information. Turn that more basic language into a byte code; then any other language (DVI, PS, PDF, ...) can display by first converting to that language: For every new such language, you then need a plugin that can do the translation, but that is all. >I don't know what a "WWW byte-code" is, >and so I don't understand the rest of your posting. So this would be like the JVM byte-code: Once you have the byte-code standard and the JVM, if the byte-code language is sufficiently general, one can use several different computer languages to translate onto that byte-code language. The point is that it is platform independent. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 11:56:16-GMT,2688;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA17174 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:56:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24626; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413341 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:24 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24579 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.21] (sl01.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.21]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16483 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:05 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13941.21350.836780.848801@fell.open.ac.uk> (message from Chris Rowley on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:24:32 +0100) <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de>, <199812140945.JAA02920@nag.co.uk> <13941.21350.836780.848801@fell.open.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:54 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812151033.KAA22286@nag.co.uk> At 10:33 +0000 1998/12/15, David Carlisle wrote: >> What is the DOM? >Sorry been spending too long in w3c lists. The Document Object Model. >Basically an API that gives low level access to the parse tree of a >document. (And has interfaces from C java python etc) Do you have an URL on this? The combination that sounds right to me is something like a DOM which can compiled to a WWW byte-code, which can generate the displays. Then one interfaces to other formats (DVI, GIF, PS, PDF) via this DOM. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 11:57:36-GMT,3560;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA17200 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:57:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24613; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413338 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:20 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24572 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.21] (sl01.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.21]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16479 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:26:00 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: (message from Hans Aberg on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:27:52 +0100) ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 04:55:25PM +0100 <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:20:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812151029.KAA13322@nag.co.uk> At 10:29 +0000 1998/12/15, David Carlisle wrote: >You appear to be (deliberately?) confusing two things. The pdf or >postscript _languages_ and particular implementations of _interpreters_ >for those languages. No, I do not confuse those things: As long as Adobe own whatever it is, they can call the shots. >If you criticise pdftex on the grounds that pdf is `commercial' >then you should make exactly the same objection about dvips. So, if dvips and becomes commercially hot, then Adobe can ask for license fees for both dvips and pdftex: In the case of dvips that is wholly unlikely, because it is just an utility. In the case of pdftex, that is probably unlikely, because the it is just a niche. But suppose one would design a typesetting system that provides a bigger market: Then Adobe might want to do that. Whatever the rules are now, Adobe might decide to change them. I just point out how those things work -- I have no idea if it is of any importance in the case of PDF. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 12:12:42-GMT,3294;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA17503 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:12:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24553; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413329 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:53 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24545 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.21] (sl01.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.21]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16451 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:43 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:59:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812142124.PAA16580@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> At 15:24 -0600 1998/12/14, Randolph J. Herber wrote: >|>Address that problem by using dvips and then ps2pdf, or dvipdf, if it >exists. > >|This does not work with embedded links. > > Why would not it work? I used `dvipdf' as a generic name for a > hypothetical dvto-to-pdf converter is the same sense that a dvips > program exists for conversion of dvi to Adobe PostScript files. > > After doing that conversion, the result PDF files could be used > in the HTML. The multiple stages could be managed in a CGI script. Depends: In DVI, such links are shipped out using \special, when converted to PS, it must be put into a similar box, which later is converted correctly to PDF. If people sit down and work it out correctly, it may work, but it is a fragile procedure, as it hangs on a chain of extensions that must work together. My hunch is that you get conversions that will work by the platform, say UNIX, that way. On the other hand, if the format from the beginning understands links (like PDF), there is no doubt that it will work if the format converted to also understands links. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 12:16:48-GMT,3580;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA17532 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:14:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA26137; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:46:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413351 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:46:24 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26123 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:46:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id LAA23962; hop 0; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:37:29 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:45:38 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 I); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214190530.B8449@maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: <13942.19332.398189.953258@srahtz> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:44:04 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > The display of the WWW browser itself must use a language of some kind to > display its graphicla information, links and such (telling where each spot > is supposed to be) why do you think there is an intermediate language? Netscape under Windows, say, reads a CSS spec, and renders it by internal calls to the underlying Windows GDI. there is no hook there which you can attach to. > display information. Turn that more basic language into a byte code; then what is this obsession with "byte codes"?? > any other language (DVI, PS, PDF, ...) can display by first converting to > that language: For every new such language, you then need a plugin that can > do the translation, but that is all. IF the browsers have a `byte code' layer and an API, then fine. > byte-code language. The point is that it is platform independent. I suspect you'd be better off using a nice graphical markup language like PGML or Microsoft's equivalent (--> SVG, when W3C complete their work). Thats the XML equivalent of PostScript, and you can expect browsers to support it directly sebastian 15-Dec-1998 12:22:48-GMT,2800;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA17681 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:22:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA26694; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:51:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413360 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:51:22 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26661 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:51:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id LAA24202; hop 0; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:42:32 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:50:56 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 I); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13941.21350.836780.848801@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812140945.JAA02920@nag.co.uk> Message-ID: <13942.19650.572736.145289@srahtz> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:49:22 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > >> What is the DOM? ... > Do you have an URL on this? http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-DOM-Level-1/ > The combination that sounds right to me is > something like a DOM which can compiled to a WWW byte-code, which can DOM gives you programmers access to the parse tree of the document. my document says hellogoodbye and the DOM will let you get at the bar elements inside overbars. how do you get from there to your byte codes? yes, you need a hard-wired conversion, or a transformation to a language that *is* understood (like PGML, or Voyager HTML) sebastian 15-Dec-1998 12:25:02-GMT,3342;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA17727 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:24:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA27193; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:57:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413381 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:57:18 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27179 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:57:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id LAA24597; hop 0; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:48:30 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:56:27 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 I); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Message-ID: <13942.19968.751211.688253@srahtz> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:54:40 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > So, if dvips and becomes commercially hot, then Adobe can ask for license > fees for both dvips and pdftex: In the case of dvips that is wholly how can they demand fees? they published the language in a book, which did NOT say "if you implement this language you must pay us". they have no legal grounds for turning around and changing their minds. If they could, so could Knuth for TeX! in what way does the PDF specification differ from the TeX specification? Adobe control one, Knuth the other. Knuth gave away the source code of an implementation, Adobe only give away compiled versions. thats about it, probably. > market: Then Adobe might want to do that. Whatever the rules are now, Adobe > might decide to change them. they can make a PDF-NG and not release the spec. but there is no sign they they want to commit commercial suicide. > I just point out how those things work are you a copyright lawyer, then? sebastian 15-Dec-1998 12:37:28-GMT,3139;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA17954 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:37:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA28021; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:08:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413388 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:08:19 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28009 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:08:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id LAA25374; hop 0; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:59:37 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:07:38 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <13942.19034.339454.14516@srahtz> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:39:06 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > Depends: In DVI, such links are shipped out using \special, when converted > to PS, it must be put into a similar box, which later is converted > correctly to PDF. If people sit down and work it out correctly, it may > work, but it is a fragile procedure, as it hangs on a chain of extensions I have maintained a LaTeX package since 1995 which manages this process, supporting half a dozen different backends. Believe me, its not fragile (ok, its not unbreakable!). The bits of it that relate to TeX->DVI->PS->PDF are reliable, well-understood, and supported. > On the other hand, if the format from the beginning understands links (like > PDF), there is no doubt that it will work if the format converted to also > understands links. the PostScript which is fed to Distiller or ps2pdf understands links. so there you go. read up on the pdfmark operator, if you are interested Sebastian 15-Dec-1998 13:20:02-GMT,2446;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA18654 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 06:19:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA01822; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:46:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413430 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:46:16 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01806 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:46:12 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id MAA13506; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:45:41 GMT References: (message from Hans Aberg on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:27:52 +0100) ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 04:55:25PM +0100 <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Message-ID: <199812151245.MAA13506@nag.co.uk> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:45:41 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: (message from Hans Aberg on Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:20:16 +0100) > So, if dvips and becomes commercially hot, then Adobe can ask for license > fees for both dvips and pdftex: No. They can't. Perhaps we should return to discussing latex? David 15-Dec-1998 13:34:10-GMT,2536;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA18913 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 06:34:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA02722; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:56:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413441 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:56:09 +0100 Received: from ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.232.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02714 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:56:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28498 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:55:59 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id OAA06503; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:02:55 +0100 (MET) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> <199812151245.MAA13506@nag.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199812151302.OAA06503@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:02:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812151245.MAA13506@nag.co.uk> » Perhaps we should return to discussing latex? for instance about that silly parameters question someone raised recently? Thierry Bouche, Grenoble. 15-Dec-1998 14:01:49-GMT,3552;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA19403 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:01:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA06590; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:33:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413479 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:33:28 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06547 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:33:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-4.tiac.net (mail-out-4.tiac.net [199.0.65.16]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10354 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:32:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p38.tc1.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.39]) by mail-out-4.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04734 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:32:29 GMT (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981215082620.00ae5f10@pop.tiac.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:32:20 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812141454.IAA15507@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> At 09:54 AM 98/12/14 , Randolph J. Herber wrote: >|Does DVI have any advantages over PDF? >DVI ==> Device Independent Just naming something `device independent' does not make it so. In fact, because of fonts, included figures and \special, DVI is less device independent than PDF. >Not all displays (printers, etc.) are Adobe PostScript PDF capable. They don't have to be. It is up to the OS to provide printer support. You print to them from Acrobat Reader. They need not be PS devices. In Windows NT for example, I could print to any one of over 3,500 different model printers - and Acrobat has very little to do with it. >Not all Adobe PostScript capable displays are Adobe PostScript PDF capable! So? You use Acrobat Reader to view the file. >If one remains with the almost universal Apple LaserWriter basic 13 fonts >and the TeX bitmapped fonts, then the files are more portable than when >Adobe PDF is used. And no included figures and no use of \special. In other words: hardly ever. >An Adobe PDF can not be repaired readily with the >usual UNIX command line tools; Yes, if you are a PS genius and have loads of time on your hand. >most Adobe PostScript files can be repaired by such means.. regards, Berthold Horn. Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 15-Dec-1998 14:04:11-GMT,2922;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA19436 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:03:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA06974; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:37:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413490 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:37:11 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06950 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:37:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-3.tiac.net (mail-out-3.tiac.net [199.0.65.15]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA30444 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:37:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p38.tc1.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.39]) by mail-out-3.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11512 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:36:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981215083339.00ae0750@pop.tiac.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:36:50 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 10:55 AM 98/12/14 , Hans Aberg wrote: >Clearly the disadvantage with PDF is that it is a commercial product, and The PDF file format is open. Not proprietary. The fact that Acrobat Distiller and Exchange are commercial means that a lot of development are done on them on a contiuing basis. It is hard to compete with that using time syphoned off from sponsored research projects (so called `free' time). >that it is somewhat too primitive to be used as a WWW-bytecode standard. Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 15-Dec-1998 14:19:38-GMT,3384;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA19713 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:19:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA08066; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:46:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413511 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:46:06 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08025 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:45:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-3.tiac.net (mail-out-3.tiac.net [199.0.65.15]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21853 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:45:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p38.tc1.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.39]) by mail-out-3.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12121 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:45:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981215084356.00ae4f10@pop.tiac.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:45:10 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13942.13976.360845.807266@srahtz> At 05:14 AM 98/12/15 , Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >Timothy Murphy writes: > > I simply meant that DVI can be translated into many different formats, > > eg PostScript, PDF, commands for Diablo daisy-wheel printer, etc. > > In that sense it is obviously more versatile than PDF. >on the other hand, I can print my PDF in Acrobat to any device supported by my >copy of Windows. ie, a very great deal more devices that those for >which there is a dvi driver. When did anyone last write a dvi driver? But it is actually the same issue. The very same printer drivers you use from Acrobat to print your PDF file to any type of printer can be used by your DVI previewer to print to any Windows supported printer. Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 15-Dec-1998 14:31:14-GMT,3314;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA19914 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:31:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA07683; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:42:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413502 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:42:50 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07660 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:42:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22013 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:42:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p38.tc1.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.39]) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA19885; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 03:43:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981215084146.00ae2920@pop.tiac.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:42:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> At 09:52 PM 98/12/14 , Timothy Murphy wrote: >On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:11:03PM +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: > >> >> >Obviously it has the advantage that it can be translated >> >> >into other languages, eg PostScript and PDF. > >> >> Why is this an advantage _over_ say PDF? > >> >Because 2 > 1. > >> I don't see the connection; please explain. > >I simply meant that DVI can be translated into many different formats, >eg PostScript, PDF, commands for Diablo daisy-wheel printer, etc. >In that sense it is obviously more versatile than PDF. I still don't get it. I can print Acrobat PDF files to any device including a fax board. Ditto for DVI files. Maybe this is a platform specific issue? Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 15-Dec-1998 14:54:09-GMT,3868;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA20416 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:54:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA19637; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:30:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413273 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:30:01 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19615 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:29:58 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id KAA13322; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:29:30 GMT References: ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 04:55:25PM +0100 <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Message-ID: <199812151029.KAA13322@nag.co.uk> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:29:30 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: (message from Hans Aberg on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:27:52 +0100) > >Is it any more (or less) commercial than PostScript? > I recall that these are made by the same company, so they probably sport > the same problems. > As an example of the problems that may arise is the story of Display > PostScript, which companies such as Apple decided to not use, because they > felt Adobe was overcharging the license fees. You appear to be (deliberately?) confusing two things. The pdf or postscript _languages_ and particular implementations of _interpreters_ for those languages. Adobe, who produced both PostScript and PDF use exactly the same model for both. The language definition is copyright adobe, but fully published, and anyone is free to implement them. On the other hand Adobe make particular implementations of interpreters for the languages which they sell. In the case of postscript they don't sell direct but the license the technology to printer manufacturers etc. However ghostscript is an example of a free renderer for poth postscript and pdf. (and there are others). The fee for DPS that you mentioned is not a fee to use DPS the language, but a fee to use adobe's implementation. There was, perhaps still is, a plan to make a free DPS based on ghostscript as part of a gnu openstep clone. If you criticise pdftex on the grounds that pdf is `commercial' then you should make exactly the same objection about dvips. > However, my main point was that since pdftex is a single monolithic program, > every additional graphics format -- PDF, PS, TIFF, etc -- > must involve further modification to pdfTeX itself. True but in general the pressure has not to include more and more xxx-to-yyy converters into pdftex, but to include those formats which are essentially native to pdf (such as pdf itself, and a subset of tiff). David 15-Dec-1998 16:49:39-GMT,4006;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23118 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:49:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA23652; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:23:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413653 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:23:10 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23635 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:23:07 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA18810; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:21:44 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: <199812151621.KAA18810@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:21:44 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The following header lines retained to affect attribution: |Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:14:48 +0000 |Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project |From: Sebastian Rahtz |Subject: Re: portable LaTeX |To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L |Timothy Murphy writes: | > I simply meant that DVI can be translated into many different formats, | > eg PostScript, PDF, commands for Diablo daisy-wheel printer, etc. | > In that sense it is obviously more versatile than PDF. | > |on the other hand, I can print my PDF in Acrobat to any device supported by my |copy of Windows. ie, a very great deal more devices that those for |which there is a dvi driver. When did anyone last write a dvi driver? How small the world has become! 8^{ There are other types of computers in the world than IBM compatible PCs. Even if you include Apple compatible PCs, there are other types of computers in the world. E.g., I own a TRS-80 4p and an AT&T 3B1. At work I use a SGI Indy. There are other types of operating systems in the world than programming support systems vended by Microsoft. Even you include Apple MacOS, there are other types of operating systems in the world. E.g., I run CP/M on the 4p, UNIX 3.51m on the 3B1 and IRIX 6.2 on the Indy. E.g., some people have been known to run Linux and FreeBSD on their machines. ``Win'' devices are a bane on anyone who would want to use those devices on any of those operating systems or who would want to use their system's CPU(s) for some other purpose than being the missing CPU from the ``Win'' device. In my view, they are an attempt to prohibit multi-tasking OSs on IBM compatible PCs. And, yes, I have written dvi drivers -- e.g. for a NEC P6 Pinwriter. |sebastian Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 15-Dec-1998 17:33:58-GMT,2593;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24210 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:33:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA27425; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413684 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:56 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA27408 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:06:54 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA18886; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:05:21 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <199812151705.LAA18886@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:05:21 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The following header lines retained to affect attribution: |Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:39:06 +0000 |Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project |From: Sebastian Rahtz |Subject: Re: portable LaTeX |To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L ... |the PostScript which is fed to Distiller or ps2pdf understands |links. so there you go. read up on the pdfmark operator, if you are |interested I can not find a command named such in the Adobe PLRM 2ed. Please, supply a citation and/or a URL to the documenation of this command. |Sebastian Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 15-Dec-1998 18:35:39-GMT,7323;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25756 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:35:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02550; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:08:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413739 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:08:26 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02528 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:08:23 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA19057; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:08:23 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:08:23 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The following header lines retained to affect attribution: |Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:32:20 -0500 |Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project |From: "Y&Y, Inc." |Subject: Re: portable LaTeX |To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L |At 09:54 AM 98/12/14 , Randolph J. Herber wrote: |>|Does DVI have any advantages over PDF? |>DVI ==> Device Independent |Just naming something `device independent' does not make it so. In fact, |because of fonts, included figures and \special, DVI is less device |independent than PDF. It has been my experience that I find it easier to convert a dvi file to something that I can print or display than most of the PDF files that I receive. The worse offenders in supplying defective Adobe PostScript language files and PDF are the applications which run on the Microsoft programming support systems and Apple MacOS. Unfortunately, the large number of point-and-ugh ``marching morons'' among the users of such systems do not know and do not seem to care what problems they create for others. I seldom have _major_ trouble addressing their blotched Adobe PostScript language files. Their Adobe PDFs are almost never reparable. When someone comes to me with a request that I repair a defective Adobe PDF file, I have to tell them to try to obtain the Adobe PostScript language original, when the procedure described below fails. Adobe PDF address the fonts issues by including scaled and bitmapped used character subsets of the fonts used when those fonts are available at the time of conversion and if the person making the conversion does not request that the fonts be omitted (the request is usually made because that ``compresses'' the file). Adobe PDF addresses the included figures by converting the images to bitmaps if converters for that figure type is available (otherwise, as I understand the famous blank label box is provided). The result of this bitmapping frequently is that the full resolution of the printer can not be used effectively. DVI was design quite effectively to be device independent over a much wider variety of output display types and printer types than Adobe PDF is designed to cover. |>Not all displays (printers, etc.) are Adobe PostScript PDF capable. |They don't have to be. It is up to the OS to provide printer support. |You print to them from Acrobat Reader. They need not be PS devices. |In Windows NT for example, I could print to any one of over 3,500 |different model printers - and Acrobat has very little to do with it. NO, it is not the job of the programming support system to provide printer support. If a printer requires unusual programming support, then it is the job of the printer vendor to provide the appropriate applications level programs and commands to prepare the data streams the printer needs from such ``standard'' forms as Adobe PostScript language or PDF. Furthermore, I see no reason that DVI could not generate similar bitmapped images of the pages and hand those images to the same printer interface applications that Adobe Acrobat Reader uses. |>Not all Adobe PostScript capable displays are Adobe PostScript PDF capable! |So? You use Acrobat Reader to view the file. I can use Acrobat Reader to produce a print datastream for my Epson FX printer? This is news to me; tell me how. I can do so with DVI files. I can use Acrobat Reader to produce a print datastream for my NEC LC890 Adobe PostScript level 1 printer? This is news to me; tell me how. I can do so with DVI files; in fact, that is the majority of my printing! In particular, tell me how to Acrobat Reader to run on my AT&T 3B1 where I run LaTeX and dvips. |>If one remains with the almost universal Apple LaserWriter basic 13 fonts |>and the TeX bitmapped fonts, then the files are more portable than when |>Adobe PDF is used. |And no included figures and no use of \special. In other words: hardly ever. If the included figures are in proper (per Adobe PostScript PRLM) EPS format and the \special statements are compatible with a Adobe PostScript output (which I _assume_ is permittable, _in this case_, as you are comparing DVI to PDF which has the same requirements), then DVI is as portable as PDF and quite possibly more so. |>An Adobe PDF can not be repaired readily with the |>usual UNIX command line tools; |Yes, if you are a PS genius and have loads of time on your hand. Thanks for the compliment. Unfortunately, PDF files take much more time to repair than ASCII text Adobe PostScript files. The most effective method is to convert them to Adobe PostScript level 1 language, do the repairs and then leave them that way. |>most Adobe PostScript files can be repaired by such means.. |regards, Berthold Horn. |Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com I thought that Y&Y was heavily into supporting TeX and LaTeX on a variety of platforms. Apparently, I am mistaken. Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 15-Dec-1998 19:11:37-GMT,2734;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA26695 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:11:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA05477; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:48:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413755 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:48:43 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05468 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:48:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.111] (sl85.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.111]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25496 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:48:38 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se (Unverified) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:45:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13942.13317.159489.460689@srahtz> At 10:03 +0000 1998/12/15, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >same as Java, PostScript, HPGL etc then. one is tempted to say "get real" Java is subject to ISO standardization, so it is not going to be owned by Sun. PostScript, of course, have had the problems in the past that commercial products usually have: There were requirement of special PS CPU's and license fees and stuff, making several other companies not using it. One is tempted to say "get real". Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 19:12:28-GMT,2794;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA26718 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:12:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA05494; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:49:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413758 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:48:58 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05475 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:48:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.111] (sl85.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.111]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25504 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:48:42 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se (Unverified) References: <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:47:07 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13942.13568.442093.669496@srahtz> At 10:08 +0000 1998/12/15, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >Hans Aberg writes: > > > > This is however a core question: So does PDF not itself allow inclusion of > > other formats like say GIF, JPEG? > > >arent we getting away from LaTeX here? if you want to read up on what >PDF does and does not do, why not download the spec and peruse it? You mean, if I am not interested in ODF as a candudate for a graphical byte-code? Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 19:40:22-GMT,3012;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27449 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:40:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA07641; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:23:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413817 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:23:46 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07486 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.111] (sl87.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.113]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29820 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:38 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: (message from Hans Aberg on Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:20:16 +0100) (message from Hans Aberg on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:27:52 +0100) ; from Hans Aberg on Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 04:55:25PM +0100 <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812151245.MAA13506@nag.co.uk> At 12:45 +0000 1998/12/15, David Carlisle wrote: >> So, if dvips and becomes commercially hot, then Adobe can ask for license >> fees for both dvips and pdftex: > >No. They can't. Sure they can. Ask your lawyer. Perhaps we should return to discussing latex? Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 19:41:47-GMT,3429;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27500 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:41:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA07506; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413788 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:49 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07438 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.111] (sl87.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.113]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29769 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:25 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:01:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13942.19034.339454.14516@srahtz> At 11:39 +0000 1998/12/15, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >Hans Aberg writes: > > Depends: In DVI, such links are shipped out using \special, when converted > > to PS, it must be put into a similar box, which later is converted > > correctly to PDF. If people sit down and work it out correctly, it may > > work, but it is a fragile procedure, as it hangs on a chain of extensions >I have maintained a LaTeX package since 1995 which manages this >process, supporting half a dozen different backends. Believe me, its not >fragile (ok, its not unbreakable!). The bits of it that relate >to TeX->DVI->PS->PDF are reliable, well-understood, and supported. > > > On the other hand, if the format from the beginning understands links (like > > PDF), there is no doubt that it will work if the format converted to also > > understands links. >the PostScript which is fed to Distiller or ps2pdf understands >links. so there you go. read up on the pdfmark operator, if you are >interested So are you saying that pdfTeX is wholly unnecessary, as this works just as well? It seems to contradict your earlier statements about pdfTeX. By the way, can pdf display everything taht a WWW browser can (say interactive Java byte-code)? Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 19:43:42-GMT,3962;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27535 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:43:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA07561; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:23:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413800 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:23:20 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07456 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.111] (sl87.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.113]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29782 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:29 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13941.11832.164081.296097@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812141457.IAA15514@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <19981214170857.D29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214190530.B8449@maths.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:09:29 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13942.19332.398189.953258@srahtz> At 11:44 +0000 1998/12/15, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >why do you think there is an intermediate language? Netscape under >Windows, say, reads a CSS spec, and renders it by internal calls to >the underlying Windows GDI. there is no hook there which you can >attach to. Right. And on Mac's, one might use QuickDraw. These are the underlying hooks, of course. Just make them machine independent, as a byte-code. > > display information. Turn that more basic language into a byte code; then >what is this obsession with "byte codes"?? I don't know; is there an obsession about byte-codes? I know that byte-codes are used to provide machine independent compiler instructions. This is feasible if the CPU is suffiently powerful. If you are interested in running software only on Microsofts OS, then you do not need byte-codes. >I suspect you'd be better off using a nice graphical markup language >like PGML or Microsoft's equivalent (--> SVG, when W3C complete their >work). I suspect that this is wrong: These langugaes are on a too high level. Confer the development with Java & JVM: On top of the byte-code language, one may build other languages, like frp example Pizza, which extends Java by adding classes with parameters and stuff. The thing is that a sufficiently low level graphical definition low level can be put into the OS (just as the JVM starts to be integrated into OS'es), and one can not expect that to happen with the more high level languages (as it is going to be too slow). Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 19:45:15-GMT,3214;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27560 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:45:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA07592; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:23:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413803 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:23:27 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07471 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.111] (sl87.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.113]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29792 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:32 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13941.21350.836780.848801@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812140945.JAA02920@nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:16:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13942.19650.572736.145289@srahtz> At 11:49 +0000 1998/12/15, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >DOM gives you programmers access to the parse tree of the document. my >document says > > hellogoodbye > >and the DOM will let you get at the bar elements inside overbars. how >do you get from there to your byte codes? yes, you need a hard-wired >conversion, or a transformation to a language that *is* understood >(like PGML, or Voyager HTML) Right. One needs to define a byte-code that admits a DOM -> byte-code translation. Then other extensions can communicate via this DOM. That is, if this DOM is the right thing: Similar techniques show up in the case of distributed programming, such as CORBA. On uses an IDL (Interface Definition Language) to make it platform independent. (And Microsoft uses COM to make it platform dependent again.) I am not sure about the exact relation with the graphical stuff. -- Let me know, when you have found out. A WWW browser with links can probably be viewed as a primitive form of distributed programming. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 19:50:29-GMT,3022;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27746 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:50:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA07613; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:23:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413810 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:23:38 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07478 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.111] (sl87.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.113]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29809 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:35 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:20:30 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13942.19968.751211.688253@srahtz> At 11:54 +0000 1998/12/15, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >in what way does the PDF specification differ from the TeX >specification? Adobe control one, Knuth the other. Knuth gave away the >source code of an implementation, Adobe only give away compiled >versions. thats about it, probably. Adobe is a commercial company; as far as I know, Knuth is not. But otherwise, Knuth could probably do the same, ubless there is a contract with the AMS prohibiting it. > > I just point out how those things work >are you a copyright lawyer, then? Strange comment. You should of course contact your copyright lawyer when you are in doubt. Then let us know. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 19:57:32-GMT,3094;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27979 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:57:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA11396; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:37:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413845 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:37:11 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11386 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:37:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.111] (sl105.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.131]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01153 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:37:07 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:35:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> At 12:08 -0600 1998/12/15, Randolph J. Herber wrote: > It has been my experience that I find it easier to convert > a dvi file to something that I can print or display than > most of the PDF files that I receive. > > The worse offenders in supplying defective Adobe PostScript > language files and PDF are the applications which run on the > Microsoft programming support systems and Apple MacOS. At least in the case of Apple MacOS it is know why this is so: Apple felt Adobe was overcharging their PS stuff, so Apple created their own Quickdraw. My guess is that Microsoft are doing the same thing, because they are so good at "improving on standards" as they call it. Similarly, HP do not use PS. Etc. This shows up as problems when one tries to print PS/PDF. If one should avoid those problems, then one should get a PS printer. But it seems a bad thing to tie an extension of TeX to such a commercial product (like PS/PDF). Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 20:48:11-GMT,2795;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00313 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:48:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA14650; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:30:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413887 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:30:55 +0100 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14637 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:30:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from MAUI (maui.ai.mit.edu [128.52.37.105]) by life.ai.mit.edu (8.9.1/AI2.7/ai.master.life:2.2) with SMTP id PAA20393 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:30:42 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981215151837.00aece80@tiac.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:30:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812151705.LAA18886@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> At 11:05 1998-12-15 -0600, Randolph J. Herber wrote: >|the PostScript which is fed to Distiller or ps2pdf understands >|links. so there you go. read up on the pdfmark operator, if you are >|interested > >I can not find a command named such in the Adobe PLRM 2ed. > >Please, supply a citation and/or a URL to the documenation of >this command. This is rather critical to the whole discussion! See Adobe Technical Report 5150 on the PDF mark operator. See also the documentation on Acrobat. You will not find this in the PLRM, since it ain't PS. You can donwload these reports (in PDF form of course :-) from http://www.adobe.com/supportservice/devrelations/technotes.html See also: Technical Report 5151 and the PDF Specification Regards, Berthold Horn. Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com 15-Dec-1998 20:59:07-GMT,3338;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00560 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:58:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA15039; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:37:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413894 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:37:17 +0100 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15024 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:37:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from MAUI (maui.ai.mit.edu [128.52.37.105]) by life.ai.mit.edu (8.9.1/AI2.7/ai.master.life:2.2) with SMTP id PAA20749 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:37:06 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13942.19034.339454.14516@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981215153311.00ac12c0@tiac.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:36:57 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 20:01 1998-12-15 +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: >> > On the other hand, if the format from the beginning understands links (like >> > PDF), there is no doubt that it will work if the format converted to also >> > understands links >>the PostScript which is fed to Distiller or ps2pdf understands >>links. so there you go. read up on the pdfmark operator, if you are >>interested >So are you saying that pdfTeX is wholly unnecessary, as this works just as >well? Not sure what you are getting at. One view of pdfTeX is that it is a shortcut. Whether you use pdfTeX or DVI => PS => PDF you use pdfmarks to generate links and other magic. The issues are orthogonal. >It seems to contradict your earlier statements about pdfTeX. >By the way, can pdf display everything taht a WWW browser can (say >interactive Java byte-code)? No. Can HTML preserve page layout and include fonts and figures all in one file? HTML is not a replacement for PDF and PDF is not a replacement for HTML. They serve different purposes. You can have hypertext links in either one. Maybe we can move this part of the discussion to comp.text.pdf where this leads to endless threads every couple of weeks. Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com 15-Dec-1998 21:41:13-GMT,2924;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01820 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:40:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17347; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:21:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413932 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:21:40 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17331 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:21:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.111] (sl75.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.101]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08688 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:21:34 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <199812151705.LAA18886@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:21:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215151837.00aece80@tiac.net> At 15:30 -0500 1998/12/15, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: >>Please, supply a citation and/or a URL to the documenation of >>this command. > >This is rather critical to the whole discussion! Even though interesting, it is not really critical for the whole discussion: It depends what one thing the future for of the authoring languages are: Is it PS quality graphics with embedded links, or may it involve to something more advanced such as WWW extended with the capacities of JVM and distributed programming, and other structures such as formulas and such. Then the model with extending via a \special command and trying to get Adobe to extend every time is not going to work well: It is going to be very fragile. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 21:48:04-GMT,3341;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02036 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:47:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17330; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:21:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413929 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:21:34 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17322 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:21:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.111] (sl75.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.101]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08677 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:21:30 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13942.19034.339454.14516@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:16:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215153311.00ac12c0@tiac.net> At 15:36 -0500 1998/12/15, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: >>By the way, can pdf display everything taht a WWW browser can (say >>interactive Java byte-code)? > >No. Can HTML preserve page layout and include fonts and figures all in >one file? > >HTML is not a replacement for PDF and PDF is not a replacement for HTML. >They serve different purposes. You can have hypertext links in either one. > >Maybe we can move this part of the discussion to comp.text.pdf where this > leads to endless threads every couple of weeks. Well, speaking of an _authoring_ language, one would expect it to be able to express the authors intentions, whatever they may be: If the intention is a markup, a certain type of graphical representation, or a formula with a certain type of mathematical semantics, the author should be able to write it so that other tools can process it properly. So from this point of view, HTML and PDF and DVI are incomplete. Then the question has been circulated around giving LaTeX such increases authoring capacities. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 21:56:02-GMT,3267;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02311 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:55:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA18127; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:38:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413966 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:38:35 +0100 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA18107 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:38:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from MAUI (maui.ai.mit.edu [128.52.37.105]) by life.ai.mit.edu (8.9.1/AI2.7/ai.master.life:2.2) with SMTP id PAA20977 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:40:46 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981215153705.00aea0a0@tiac.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:40:34 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> At 12:08 1998-12-15 -0600, Randolph J. Herber wrote: >|They don't have to be. It is up to the OS to provide printer support. >|You print to them from Acrobat Reader. They need not be PS devices. >|In Windows NT for example, I could print to any one of over 3,500 >|different model printers - and Acrobat has very little to do with it. > NO, it is not the job of the programming support system to > provide printer support. If a printer requires unusual > programming support, then it is the job of the printer > vendor to provide the appropriate applications level > programs and commands to prepare the data streams the > printer needs from such ``standard'' forms as Adobe > PostScript language or PDF. Yes, that is what I mean. You can't sell a printer to a significant number of people *unless* it has this kind of support for major operating systems. The application should *not* have to worry about this. There should not be a need for a DVILJ, DVIPS, DVIXYZ DVIEpson, DVIFax driver. There should be *ne* driver. Systems that have M applications and N resources, can then be dealt with using N + M software modules rather than N * M. But maybe we can move this discussion to alt.software.advocacy. Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com 15-Dec-1998 21:58:34-GMT,2768;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02415 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:58:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17966; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:35:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413963 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:35:19 +0100 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17937 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:34:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from MAUI (maui.ai.mit.edu [128.52.37.105]) by life.ai.mit.edu (8.9.1/AI2.7/ai.master.life:2.2) with SMTP id QAA24036; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:34:43 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <4.1.19981215151837.00aece80@tiac.net> <199812151705.LAA18886@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981215163155.00ae4530@tiac.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:34:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 22:21 1998-12-15 +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: >At 15:30 -0500 1998/12/15, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: >>>Please, supply a citation and/or a URL to the documenation of >>>this command. >>This is rather critical to the whole discussion! >Even though interesting, it is not really critical for the whole discussion: Maybe not critical to you, but certainly critical to the thread I was responding to, which demonstrated deep lack of knowledge about what Acrobat PDF is -- including even lack of knowledge of the ability to have hypertext capability in PDF :0) If we are going to argue about something irrelevant lets at least be influenced by facts :-) Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com 15-Dec-1998 22:04:49-GMT,3133;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02601 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:04:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA18478; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:46:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413971 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:46:15 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA18471 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:46:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.97] (sl71.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.97]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10151 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:46:12 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se (Unverified) References: <13941.21350.836780.848801@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812140945.JAA02920@nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:46:38 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13942.19650.572736.145289@srahtz> At 11:49 +0000 1998/12/15, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-DOM-Level-1/ I think if one took PDF, added the things needed to display in a WWW (like information about the viewing window), integrated with the Java bytecode in a wholly object oriented way, etc, then one might arrive at a suitable "graphical bytecode". (So in particular, fonts would be object, and one could choose to put them in separate files or one the same file as the document.) The DOM already has a relation with the CORBA (see in the introduction), so that would probably provide a basis for the higher level language: WWW publishing would integrate with other types of distributed programming. Then this would be a suitable model for an "extended DVI", by which the new, improved TeX can build: One should be able to do pretty advanced things: There is no longer any difference between a document (or rather its representation in the computer) and a computer program. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1998 22:17:25-GMT,2888;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02993 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:17:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA19231; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:59:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413982 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:59:41 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19223 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:59:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.97] (sl40.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.60]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11015 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:59:37 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <4.1.19981215151837.00aece80@tiac.net> <199812151705.LAA18886@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:52:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215163155.00ae4530@tiac.net> At 16:34 -0500 1998/12/15, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: >...certainly critical to the thread I was >responding to, which demonstrated deep lack of knowledge about >what Acrobat PDF is -- including even lack of knowledge of the ability >to have hypertext capability in PDF :0) I thought the discussion was about the lack of knowledge of the ability to have hypertext capability in DVI and PS: I mean, if you have seen a PDF document with an URL in it, then one knows that PDF has that capacity, and one needs not read technical document in order to acquire that knowledge. :-) Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 16-Dec-1998 2:57:33-GMT,3373;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA10728 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:57:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA19245; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:59:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413985 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:59:52 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19232 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:59:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.97] (sl40.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.60]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11018 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:59:41 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:00:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215153705.00aea0a0@tiac.net> At 15:40 -0500 1998/12/15, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: > You can't sell a printer to a significant number >of people *unless* it has this kind of support for major operating systems. >The application should *not* have to worry about this. There should >not be a need for a DVILJ, DVIPS, DVIXYZ DVIEpson, DVIFax driver. >There should be *ne* driver. Systems that have M applications and N >resources, can then be dealt with using N + M software modules >rather than N * M. I think this is the argument for developing such a "graphical bytecode". In the generalization, I think this is why object orientation and the layering of computer structures (such as languages and various interpreters) are important: If these components interface, one needs only a few of them; otherwise one needs one for each possible combination, which quickly rises to a prohibitively large number if the number of components is large. So with links stuff, which survives the DVI and PS special command into PDF, it is just a patch: If one would be forced to do such a patch with every new feature one wants to use from TeX, then it would be cumbersome. So it is better to let TeX expand directly into some more advanced extended DVI. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 16-Dec-1998 9:38:51-GMT,2367;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA18580 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:38:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA10377; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:17:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413165 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:17:39 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA10350 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:17:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zqD5J-0003ad-00; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:17:33 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:17:30 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:45:49 +0100." hans aberg meandered: > At 10:03 +0000 1998/12/15, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >same as Java, PostScript, HPGL etc then. one is tempted to say "get real" > > Java is subject to ISO standardization, so it is not going to be owned by Sun. speaking as an iso standardiser, i can say (with great feeling) that if you believe that, you'll believe anything. > PostScript, of course, have had the problems in the past that commercial > products usually have: There were requirement of special PS CPU's and > license fees and stuff, making several other companies not using it. there is, of course, an iso standard based on postscript (it's called spdl). fat lot of difference it's made. > One is tempted to say "get real". pah! robin 16-Dec-1998 10:08:29-GMT,2869;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA19181 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:08:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA12734; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:47:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413199 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:47:41 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA12719 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:47:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zqDYR-0003fi-00; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:47:39 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:47:36 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:16:20 +0100." hans aberg writes: > Well, speaking of an _authoring_ language, one would expect [...] > > So from this point of view, HTML and PDF and DVI are incomplete. umm, in iso 8613[*] terms, pdf and dvi are `final forms', the output of a formatting process. pace various people's odd ideas, they are not (as a practical proposition) intended to be edited. as authoring languages they are complete crocks (though people do do daft things: i have a friend who regularly writes bits of exam papers in postscript...). html is a `revisable form'. indeed, some people (such as i, who have no other tools than emacs) author in it[*]. but it's an awful authoring language, even with the sorts of dances i can persuade emacs to do for me.... however, html _does_ in principle provide an awful lot of what one might like. it fails in its lack of stable extensibility ... which is what this crazy argument started from (but, shock horror, in terms of latex's stability and extensibility). robin [*] see, e.g., ISO/IEC 8613-1:1994 Information technology -- Open Document Architecture (ODA) and interchange format: Part 1: Introduction and general principles [**] and regularly get emailed abuse about the lack of tricksiness in my output... 16-Dec-1998 11:13:45-GMT,3189;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA20273 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:13:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA18534; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413283 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:24 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18494 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.106] (sl80.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.106]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08018 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:08 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: Your message of "Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:16:20 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:14 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 09:47 +0000 1998/12/16, Robin Fairbairns wrote: >hans aberg writes: > >> Well, speaking of an _authoring_ language, one would expect [...] >> >> So from this point of view, HTML and PDF and DVI are incomplete. > >umm, in iso 8613[*] terms, pdf and dvi are `final forms', the output >of a formatting process. pace various people's odd ideas, they are >not (as a practical proposition) intended to be edited. as authoring >languages they are complete crocks (though people do do daft things: i >have a friend who regularly writes bits of exam papers in >postscript...). Has anybody said anything different? >html is a `revisable form'. indeed, some people (such as i, who have >no other tools than emacs) author in it[*]. but it's an awful >authoring language, even with the sorts of dances i can persuade emacs >to do for me.... Right. >however, html _does_ in principle provide an awful lot of what one >might like. it fails in its lack of stable extensibility ... which is >what this crazy argument started from (but, shock horror, in terms of >latex's stability and extensibility). Right again: People use HTML as an authoring language, in the lack of the real thing. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 16-Dec-1998 11:14:39-GMT,3037;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA20316 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:14:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA18506; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413280 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:14 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18493 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.106] (sl80.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.106]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08002 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:04 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: Your message of "Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:45:49 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 09:17 +0000 1998/12/16, Robin Fairbairns wrote: >hans aberg meandered: > >> At 10:03 +0000 1998/12/15, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >same as Java, PostScript, HPGL etc then. one is tempted to say "get real" >> >> Java is subject to ISO standardization, so it is not going to be owned >>by Sun. > >speaking as an iso standardiser, i can say (with great feeling) that >if you believe that, you'll believe anything. I am afraid your comment is not very informative. Please explain. >> PostScript, of course, have had the problems in the past that commercial >> products usually have: There were requirement of special PS CPU's and >> license fees and stuff, making several other companies not using it. > >there is, of course, an iso standard based on postscript (it's called >spdl). fat lot of difference it's made. And there will be an ISO standard based on Java called Java. Besides, ISO standards themselves are no heaven; quite often they lead to the opposite. >> One is tempted to say "get real". > >pah! Pah on yourself! Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 16-Dec-1998 12:26:06-GMT,2946;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA21485 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:25:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA26013; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:09:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413359 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:09:05 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25974 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:08:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id MAA04854; hop 0; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:00:14 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:08:28 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> <199812151621.KAA18810@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <13943.38781.730063.878793@srahtz> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:20:29 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812151621.KAA18810@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Randolph J. Herber writes: > There are other types of computers in the world than IBM compatible PCs. of course there. i gave Windows as an example. > E.g., some people have been known to run Linux and FreeBSD on their > machines. gasp. why, i do that myself every day of my life. gasp. > And, yes, I have written dvi drivers -- e.g. for a NEC P6 Pinwriter. please dont tell us that you still use this printer? sebastian 16-Dec-1998 12:31:31-GMT,2864;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA21598 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:31:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA26002; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:09:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413356 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:09:00 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25984 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:08:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id LAA04766; hop 0; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:59:16 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:07:30 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Message-ID: <13943.35834.346967.222803@srahtz> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:31:22 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > Adobe is a commercial company; as far as I know, Knuth is not. > Knuth is an individual with a bank account, and income and deductions; Adobe is a corporate entity. "commercial" has no real meaning in this context > But otherwise, Knuth could probably do the same, ubless there is a contract > with the AMS prohibiting it. > good. then we agree that TeX is no more an open language than PDF? sebastian 16-Dec-1998 12:31:53-GMT,2991;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA21597 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:31:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA25924; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:08:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413353 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:08:23 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25849 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:07:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id LAA04751; hop 0; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:59:03 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:07:23 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <13943.35662.403959.906992@srahtz> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:28:30 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > >links. so there you go. read up on the pdfmark operator, if you are > >interested > > So are you saying that pdfTeX is wholly unnecessary, as this works just as > well? no. with pdfTeX you can get direct access to PDF as you compose the TeX. an obvious example where pdftex is needed is to allow breaking of links across lines and pages - theoretically possibly in a dvi->ps->pdf, but I havent seen anyone do it. > By the way, can pdf display everything taht a WWW browser can (say > interactive Java byte-code)? PDF is a language, not a bit of software. a PDF browser may have a Java interpreter, yes. I have no idea what "interactive byte-code" could conceivably be sebastian 16-Dec-1998 12:32:43-GMT,2690;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA21605 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:32:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA25854; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:07:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413350 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:07:52 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25818 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:07:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id LAA04754; hop 0; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:59:04 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:07:19 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151705.LAA18886@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <13943.35261.983349.472831@srahtz> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:21:49 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812151705.LAA18886@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Randolph J. Herber writes: > |links. so there you go. read up on the pdfmark operator, if you are > |interested > > I can not find a command named such in the Adobe PLRM 2ed. > > Please, supply a citation and/or a URL to the documenation of > this command. > a good place to start is @url{merzprimer, name="pdfmarkprimer", note="Pdfmark primer", urn="http://www.ifconnection.de/~tm" } sebastian 16-Dec-1998 12:37:48-GMT,2530;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA21700 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:37:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA26581; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:14:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413367 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:14:32 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26573 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:14:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id MAA05065; hop 0; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:05:37 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:14:00 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <13943.39896.480540.616437@srahtz> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:39:04 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > But it seems a bad thing to tie an extension of TeX to such a commercial > product (like PS/PDF). we are all agog to hear about the free chip you use to run TeX, the free printer you use, or even the free paper you print on. Fancy tying TeX to the commercial world of paper and film suppliers! what *was* Don thinking of? sebastian 16-Dec-1998 12:43:41-GMT,3700;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA21783 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:43:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA26671; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:15:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413370 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:15:00 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26635 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:14:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id MAA05062; hop 0; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:05:37 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:13:52 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <13943.39764.234044.94789@srahtz> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:36:51 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Randolph J. Herber writes: > Adobe PDF address the fonts issues by including scaled and > bitmapped used character subsets of the fonts used when those > fonts are available at the time of conversion and if the no, Acrobat Distiller does this, PDF does not. keep the distinction > the file). Adobe PDF addresses the included figures by > converting the images to bitmaps if converters for that > figure type is available (otherwise, as I understand the sorry? are you talking perhaps about Acrobat Exchange? NOT the way I'd recommend you make PDF files. > I can use Acrobat Reader to produce a print datastream for my Epson FX > printer? This is news to me; tell me how. I can do so with DVI files. depends on your operating system. > I can use Acrobat Reader to produce a print datastream for my NEC LC890 > Adobe PostScript level 1 printer? acroread -toPostScript foo.pdf > In particular, tell me how to Acrobat Reader to run on my AT&T 3B1 > where I run LaTeX and dvips. dont. run GhostScript, or xpdf. > I thought that Y&Y was heavily into supporting TeX and LaTeX > on a variety of platforms. Apparently, I am mistaken. > this is an underhand and unfair statement. Y&Y make no secrets whatever about their products. Berthold never claims that `dviwindo' works on an SGI! Y&Y's font products, on the other hand, work with any TeX systems, and great kudos to Berthold (IMHO) for maintaining such high standards in their fonts. Sebastian 16-Dec-1998 12:59:49-GMT,2899;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA22025 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:59:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA28513; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:35:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413401 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:35:01 +0100 Received: from ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.232.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28498 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:34:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA29506 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:34:43 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id NAA07742; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:41:48 +0100 (MET) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13943.35662.403959.906992@srahtz> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199812161241.NAA07742@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:41:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13943.35662.403959.906992@srahtz> Concernant « Re: portable LaTeX », Sebastian Rahtz écrit : « » Hans Aberg writes: » > >links. so there you go. read up on the pdfmark operator, if you are » > >interested » > » > So are you saying that pdfTeX is wholly unnecessary, as this works just as » > well? » no. with pdfTeX you can get direct access to PDF as you » compose the TeX. an obvious example where pdftex is needed is » to allow breaking of links across lines and pages - theoretically » possibly in a dvi->ps->pdf, but I havent seen anyone do it. well... not latex-l friendly.. but did you see Hans Hagen recently? Thierry Bouche, Grenoble. 16-Dec-1998 13:36:53-GMT,2996;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA22637 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:36:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA01001; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:59:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413427 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:59:50 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00994 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:59:48 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id GAA21106; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:59:42 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151705.LAA18886@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <199812161259.GAA21106@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:59:42 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The following header lines retained to affect attribution: |Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:21:49 +0000 (GMT) |From: Sebastian Rahtz |Subject: Re: portable LaTeX |To: herber@fnal.gov |Cc: LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE |Randolph J. Herber writes: | > |read up on the pdfmark operator, if you are interested | > Please, supply a citation and/or a URL to the documenation of | > this command. |a good place to start is |@url{merzprimer,name="pdfmarkprimer",note="Pdfmark primer", | urn="http://www.ifconnection.de/~tm" |} |sebastian Please supply a usable URL. That one causes errors in my browser. For example, going to http://www.ifconnection.de/~tm/e/pdfmark/index.html results in a usable URL. This was obtained by reading the HTML directly to avoid the errors. One should make one's WWW pages _usable_ with imageless, text only and frameless pages access, cookies should not be required for access, etc. Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 16-Dec-1998 13:48:47-GMT,2247;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA22876 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:48:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA02893; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:17:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413447 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:17:12 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA02883 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:17:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zqGpB-0005Sz-00; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:17:09 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:17:07 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:59:42 CST." <199812161259.GAA21106@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> randolph j herber witters (quoting sebastian) > |@url{merzprimer,name="pdfmarkprimer",note="Pdfmark primer", > | urn="http://www.ifconnection.de/~tm" > |} > > Please supply a usable URL. That one causes errors in my browser. seems perfectly usable to me, either from nuts crap or from lynx (i would have to move to another desk to use i exploder). it does contain a complicated piece of code (rechts/links) ... must be something to do with some furrin language ... why can't these germans talk *our* language? -- well, frankly, i'll really feel in a position to complain when i speak theirs better... robin 16-Dec-1998 14:00:21-GMT,2774;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA23092 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:00:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA04860; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:38:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413480 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:38:35 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04833 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:38:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id NAA07411; hop 0; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:21:55 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:30:16 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151705.LAA18886@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> <199812161259.GAA21106@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <13943.45710.132070.334228@srahtz> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:15:58 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812161259.GAA21106@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Randolph J. Herber writes: > | urn="http://www.ifconnection.de/~tm" .. > Please supply a usable URL. That one causes errors in my browser. better get a new browser? sorry, I live in a pragmatic world. > to avoid the errors. One should make one's WWW pages _usable_ with > imageless, text only and frameless pages access, cookies should not be > required for access, etc. look, *I* didn't write that page! talk to Thomas Merz. sebastian 16-Dec-1998 15:38:59-GMT,2983;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25220 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:38:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA13330; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413554 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:56 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13269 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.107] (sl17.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.37]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03357 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:09 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:10:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13943.39896.480540.616437@srahtz> At 11:39 +0000 1998/12/16, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >Hans Aberg writes: > > But it seems a bad thing to tie an extension of TeX to such a commercial > > product (like PS/PDF). > >we are all agog to hear about the free chip you use to run TeX, the >free printer you use, or even the free paper you print on. Fancy tying >TeX to the commercial world of paper and film suppliers! what *was* >Don thinking of? It is the lack of pluralism on the market: So for example, I am not sure you have noticed, but ther is more than one coomercial supplier of papers, but there is just one company asking licence fees for PS/PDF and developing that standard. These problems are for real in the software world: In the past, i think it existed with FORTRAN, and of course still today with UNIX, which is owned by Bell labs, I think. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 16-Dec-1998 15:44:06-GMT,3275;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25327 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:44:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA13265; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413548 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:08 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13249 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.107] (sl17.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.37]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03344 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:03 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:15:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13943.35834.346967.222803@srahtz> At 10:31 +0000 1998/12/16, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >Knuth is an individual with a bank account, and income and deductions; >Adobe is a corporate entity. "commercial" has no real meaning in this >context I thought you indicated the real meaning of "commercial" in this context... > > But otherwise, Knuth could probably do the same, ubless there is a contract > > with the AMS prohibiting it. > > >good. then we agree that TeX is no more an open language than PDF? The problem with TeX is of course that Knuths sits on the copyright, and nothing happens... Otherwise, I think it is great that Acrobat Reader and part of use of PDF are for free -- I wrote to an Adobe executive in the days they were not and told him they would make more money that by changing that, and he responded that is was a great idea, and after that they changed it. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 16-Dec-1998 15:54:10-GMT,2728;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25576 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:54:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA13316; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413551 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:51 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13256 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.107] (sl17.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.37]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03348 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:07 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:06:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13943.35662.403959.906992@srahtz> At 10:28 +0000 1998/12/16, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >no. with pdfTeX you can get direct access to PDF as you >compose the TeX. an obvious example where pdftex is needed is >to allow breaking of links across lines and pages - theoretically >possibly in a dvi->ps->pdf, but I havent seen anyone do it. These are kind of examples that I am looking: One should work directly with an enhanced DVI, so that one does not get dependant on a long chain of fixes. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 16-Dec-1998 16:08:54-GMT,2838;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26185 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:08:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA15613; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:41:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413561 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:41:21 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15601 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:41:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id PAA10758; hop 0; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:32:27 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:40:51 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <13943.54045.536409.797051@srahtz> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:34:53 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > These are kind of examples that I am looking: One should work directly with > an enhanced DVI, so that one does not get dependant on a long chain of > fixes. pdfTeX is a TeX version that implements an enhanced DVI, its called PDF. you know, that language for which our dot-matrix-loving-friend Herber can write drivers. there are two good, free, open source implementations of PDF drivers to start from now i ****promise**** not rise to any more baiting until next year sebastian 16-Dec-1998 16:31:58-GMT,2558;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26792 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:31:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA18081; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:09:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413567 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:09:42 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA18071 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:09:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 16 Dec 98 16:09:27 +0000 (GMT) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13943.35662.403959.906992@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981216160925.A18738@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:09:25 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13943.35662.403959.906992@srahtz>; from Sebastian Rahtz on Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:28:30AM +0000 On Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:28:30AM +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > no. with pdfTeX you can get direct access to PDF as you > compose the TeX. an obvious example where pdftex is needed is > to allow breaking of links across lines and pages But can PDF break links across pages ? -- it's quite surprising if it can, as it seems very page-oriented. I thought a link had to belong to a page ? -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 16-Dec-1998 16:36:26-GMT,2539;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26919 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:36:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA18254; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:11:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413570 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:11:17 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA18245 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:11:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 16 Dec 98 16:11:08 +0000 (GMT) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> <13943.35834.346967.222803@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981216161108.B18738@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:11:08 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13943.35834.346967.222803@srahtz>; from Sebastian Rahtz on Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:31:22AM +0000 On Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:31:22AM +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > good. then we agree that TeX is no more an open language than PDF? In theory maybe; but Knuth is a saint, while Adobe is run by mere mortals. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 16-Dec-1998 17:06:17-GMT,3212;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27682 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:06:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA20985; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:45:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413604 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:45:51 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20965 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:45:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id QAA13193; hop 0; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:37:00 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:45:27 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13943.35662.403959.906992@srahtz> <19981216160925.A18738@maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: <13943.57236.607487.817096@srahtz> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:28:04 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981216160925.A18738@maths.tcd.ie> Timothy Murphy writes: > > no. with pdfTeX you can get direct access to PDF as you > > compose the TeX. an obvious example where pdftex is needed is > > to allow breaking of links across lines and pages > > But can PDF break links across pages ? -- no, it cant, thats the point. so you have to make the " into two links, "Jones and Chris-" "topher, 1976", on separate lines, both pointing at "foo". OK, so the eggheads could do this in TeX macros (ie trap the hyphenation point and insert a \special). I can't. Donald Arseneau went a long way, but I don't even even he had a general solution. Hans H may, of course, have re-attached the problem and solved it. Others may prefer to try and find the point in the dvi file, and insert some extra "end link" "start link" stuff. Sebastian 16-Dec-1998 18:37:49-GMT,4522;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00104 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:37:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA28182; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:08:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413641 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:08:50 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28170 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:08:47 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA21879; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:08:48 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <199812161808.MAA21879@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:08:48 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The following header lines retained to affect attribution: |Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:36:51 +0000 |Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project |From: Sebastian Rahtz |Subject: Re: portable LaTeX |To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L |Randolph J. Herber writes: | > Adobe PDF address the fonts issues by including scaled and | > bitmapped used character subsets of the fonts used when those | > fonts are available at the time of conversion and if the |no, Acrobat Distiller does this, PDF does not. keep the distinction Thank you for making the distinction. My impression came from contending with Adobe PDF in which I encountered such conditions. It made it quite difficult to support my user. | > the file). Adobe PDF addresses the included figures by | > converting the images to bitmaps if converters for that | > figure type is available (otherwise, as I understand the |sorry? are you talking perhaps about Acrobat Exchange? NOT the way I'd |recommend you make PDF files. If the figures are not Adobe PostScript level 1 or self capable of reducing themselves to that level, then the only practical choice is to bitmap the images, which then can be converted to Adobe EPSF at Adobe PostScript level 1. Adobe PostScript level 1 is a requirement from considerations of portability. | > I thought that Y&Y was heavily into supporting TeX and LaTeX | > on a variety of platforms. Apparently, I am mistaken. | > |this is an underhand and unfair statement. Y&Y make no secrets |whatever about their products. Berthold never claims that `dviwindo' |works on an SGI! No, that simply was a statement of my (mis)conception of what Y&Y does. And, I did not explicitly claim that I thought Y&Y supported any particular program on SGI equipment or operating systems nor did I intend to imply that I thought that Y&Y did any except support TeX and LaTeX _in some manner_ heavily on a variety of platforms. I have always seen Y&Y ads in a TeX and LaTeX context. Supplying fonts for TeX and LaTeX does constitute support of TeX and LaTeX _in some manner_ as I see it. ``Apparently, I am mistaken'' was meant as stated without sarcasm. |Y&Y's font products, on the other hand, work with any TeX systems, and |great kudos to Berthold (IMHO) for maintaining such high standards in |their fonts. |Sebastian Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 16-Dec-1998 19:05:23-GMT,2909;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00837 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:05:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA05991; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:43:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413718 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:43:34 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05969 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:43:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.107] (sl52.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.72]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20318 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:43:30 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:39:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13943.54045.536409.797051@srahtz> At 15:34 +0000 1998/12/16, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >Hans Aberg writes: > > > These are kind of examples that I am looking: One should work directly with > > an enhanced DVI, so that one does not get dependant on a long chain of > > fixes. > >pdfTeX is a TeX version that implements an enhanced DVI, its called >PDF. you know, that language for which our dot-matrix-loving-friend >Herber can write drivers. there are two good, free, open source >implementations of PDF drivers to start from Well, that's a good start. Perhaps the idea can be used for developing someting more advanced. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 16-Dec-1998 19:35:50-GMT,2473;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA01519 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:35:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA08511; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:13:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413778 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:13:40 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08497 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:13:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.107] (sl32.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.52]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA22202 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:13:36 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:13:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13943.54045.536409.797051@srahtz> At 15:34 +0000 1998/12/16, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >now i ****promise**** not rise to any more baiting until next year Is this a New Year Resolution? Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 16-Dec-1998 20:47:51-GMT,3834;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03128 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:47:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA13025; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:25:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413836 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:25:43 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13016 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:25:41 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA24073; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:24:23 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <199812162024.OAA24073@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:24:23 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The following header lines retained to affect attribution: |Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:34:53 +0000 |Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project |From: Sebastian Rahtz |Subject: Re: portable LaTeX |To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L |Hans Aberg writes: | > These are kind of examples that I am looking: One should work directly with | > an enhanced DVI, so that one does not get dependant on a long chain of | > fixes. |pdfTeX is a TeX version that implements an enhanced DVI, its called |PDF. you know, that language for which our dot-matrix-loving-friend |Herber can write drivers. there are two good, free, open source |implementations of PDF drivers to start from Dot matrix is not what I love. (I also own a NEC LC890 as I already mentioned which is an Adobe PostScript capable printer and is the mode in which I usually use that printer. Rather, it is the operating expense difference that caused me to use the NEC P6 Pinwriter until it died. A more accurate description is that I dislike PDF since, in my experience supporting about 400 scientists whom use print files in a variety of formats, generated by a variety of programs on a variety of platforms and which they expect to display and print faultlessly everywhere, PDF files seldom work properly. I admit that that fault may not be with the design of PDF but rather with the means by which they were generated. I seldom have trouble with DVI files. I disagree with your description of PDF as an enhanced DVI, based on that experience. If PDF is desired, then use a DVI to PDF converter. |now i ****promise**** not rise to any more baiting until next year Yes, your baiting is unwelcome. |sebastian Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 17-Dec-1998 18:18:39-GMT,2566;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00646 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:17:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA25663; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:58:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413601 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:58:20 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA25643 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:58:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 17 Dec 98 17:58:14 +0000 (GMT) References: <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> <4.1.19981215084146.00ae2920@pop.tiac.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981217175813.A17648@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:58:13 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215084146.00ae2920@pop.tiac.net>; from Y&Y, Inc. on Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 08:42:34AM -0500 On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 08:42:34AM -0500, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: > I still don't get it. I can print Acrobat PDF files to any device including > a fax board. ... Maybe this is a platform specific issue? You can, but I can't. Probably because you are rich. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 17-Dec-1998 19:41:19-GMT,3110;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02685 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:41:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA01423; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:13:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413648 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:13:27 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01412 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:13:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.103] (sl77.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.103]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10386 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:13:24 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <4.1.19981215084146.00ae2920@pop.tiac.net>; from Y&Y, Inc. on Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 08:42:34AM -0500 <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> <4.1.19981215084146.00ae2920@pop.tiac.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:13:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981217175813.A17648@maths.tcd.ie> At 17:58 +0000 1998/12/17, Timothy Murphy wrote: >On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 08:42:34AM -0500, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: > >> I still don't get it. I can print Acrobat PDF files to any device including >> a fax board. ... Maybe this is a platform specific issue? > >You can, but I can't. >Probably because you are rich. I think this is the problem: People in the publishing industry buys all the expensive Adobe licenced PS/PDF stuff and then only works with that, because they have the money and do not want to risk incompatibilities. The others are left out in the cold. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 17-Dec-1998 20:25:31-GMT,3205;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03780 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:25:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA04530; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:04:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413676 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:04:05 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04506 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:03:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-3.tiac.net (mail-out-3.tiac.net [199.0.65.15]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05427 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:03:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p3.tc5.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.76.4]) by mail-out-3.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05238 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:03:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <4.1.19981215084146.00ae2920@pop.tiac.net> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> <4.1.19981215084146.00ae2920@pop.tiac.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981217150110.00a3fbc0@pop.tiac.net> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:03:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981217175813.A17648@maths.tcd.ie> At 12:58 PM 98/12/17 , Timothy Murphy wrote: >> I still don't get it. I can print Acrobat PDF files to any device including >> a fax board. ... Maybe this is a platform specific issue? >You can, but I can't. Probably because you are rich. Not sure I get it. The Acrobat Reader is free. And on platforms that support printers you can print from Acrobat Reader to anything that comes with a working printer driver. No need to be rich, as far as I can see. Nor any need to buy extra stuff from Adobe or anyone else. Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 17-Dec-1998 22:52:14-GMT,3473;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07119 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:52:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA13523; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:30:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413732 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:30:11 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13509 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:30:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23761 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id RAA20657 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:29:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812172229.RAA20657@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:29:57 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Berthold Horn writes: > Not sure I get it. The Acrobat Reader is free. > And on platforms that support printers you can print > from Acrobat Reader to anything that comes with a > working printer driver. No need to be rich, as far as I can see. > Nor any need to buy extra stuff from Adobe or anyone else. LaTeX is for authors. In order for an author to get into high quality PDF, it would seem that either he needs to pay the tax or he needs to use pdftex. (I have not tried the latter. Did I miss something?) If one construes the "level" of a format as its position in the (pseudo) directed graph (not a tree) of all possible formats, where the "arrows" between vertices represent "faithful" translations, then dvi format is a higher level format than either postscript or pdf. This concept of "level" is not precisely specified unless "faithful" is precisely specified, and even then one must be aware of the possibility of "backward" transformations of format that are not "inverses". One keeps one options open maximally by keeping one's level as high as possible at every stage. As far as I know, dvi is a higher level format than either of the Adobe formats. Moreover, writing "dvi" is not taxed in any way. That said, dvi viewing is just not very well distributed. That's too bad, because I find "xdvi", when suited to the task, much more pleasant to use than any pdf or postscript reader that I have seen. (But isn't it now included in one or more of the linux distributions.) Perhaps if some of the dvi specials now in mainstream use were adopted officially, those who code dvi viewers would have more incentive to add features. But this is getting off topic, isn't it. -- Bill 17-Dec-1998 23:35:03-GMT,2782;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA08049 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:34:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA15875; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:14:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413051 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:14:04 +0100 Received: from abacus.maths.uq.edu.au (abacus.maths.uq.edu.au [130.102.160.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15862 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:13:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from bigted.maths.uq.edu.au (bigted.maths.uq.edu.au [130.102.160.22]) by abacus.maths.uq.edu.au (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA00770 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:13:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from kgs@localhost) by bigted.maths.uq.edu.au (8.8.6/0.0.0) id JAA22828 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:13:43 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <199812172313.JAA22828@bigted.maths.uq.edu.au> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:13:43 +1000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Ken Smith Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:34:32 -0500 Berthold "Y&Y, Inc." wrote: > At 22:21 1998-12-15 +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: > >At 15:30 -0500 1998/12/15, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: > >>>Please, supply a citation and/or a URL to the documenation of > >>>this command. > >>This is rather critical to the whole discussion! > >Even though interesting, it is not really critical for the whole discussion: > Maybe not critical to you, but certainly critical to the thread I was > responding to, which demonstrated deep lack of knowledge about > what Acrobat PDF is -- including even lack of knowledge of the ability > to have hypertext capability in PDF :0) > If we are going to argue about something irrelevant lets at least be > influenced by facts :-) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ah, but in this postmodern world we're not supposed to let the facts interfere with our interpretation of reality. (I've been reading too much of Alan Sokal's writings recently.) > Regards, Berthold. Ken Smith kgs@maths.uq.edu.au 18-Dec-1998 1:04:12-GMT,3586;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA09895 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:04:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA19990; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:49:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413067 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:49:19 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19972 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:48:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15554 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:48:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p95.tc5.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.76.96]) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28563 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:49:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981217194302.01f2e270@pop.tiac.net> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:48:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812172229.RAA20657@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Hi: At 05:29 PM 98/12/17 , William F. Hammond wrote: >If one construes the "level" of a format as its position in the >(pseudo) directed graph (not a tree) of all possible formats, where >the "arrows" between vertices represent "faithful" translations, then >dvi format is a higher level format than either postscript or pdf. Well in that case lets just stay with TeX source code :-) It is even `higher level' in your hierarchy. >As far as I know, dvi is a higher level format than either of the >Adobe formats. Moreover, writing "dvi" is not taxed in any way. That >said, dvi viewing is just not very well distributed. That's too bad, >because I find "xdvi", when suited to the task, much more pleasant to >use than any pdf or postscript reader that I have seen. (But isn't Except: DVI is not a good format when you have figures, or when you use fonts other than the CM fonts, or when you use any \specials, or in other words if you do anything but the lowest common denominator types of TeX-world things... >Perhaps if some of the dvi specials now in mainstream use were adopted >officially, those who code dvi viewers would have more incentive to >add features. There was the `DVI standards' committee. It refused to address the real issues including \special{...} at a point where it might actually have made some difference. Hence lost a great chance to prevent a huge mess. (They did however discuss how many angels can fit into one scaled point). Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 18-Dec-1998 10:11:55-GMT,2020;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA20882 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 03:11:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA12450; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:38:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413427 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:38:21 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12413 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:38:09 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id JAA21980; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:37:14 GMT Message-ID: <199812180937.JAA21980@nag.co.uk> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:37:14 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: pointless discussions: was: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L >You can, but I can't. >Probably because you are rich. I think this is the problem: People in the publishing industry buys all the expensive Adobe licenced PS/PDF stuff and then only works with that, because they have the money and do not want to risk incompatibilities. The others are left out in the cold. The problem with this argumemt is that the software that Berthold was referring to was acrobat reader and the windows gdi printing system. The first is free, the second is not, but I would not say that someone with a windows box was necessarily classed as rich. David 18-Dec-1998 12:46:55-GMT,3503;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA23396 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 05:46:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA29582; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:23:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413646 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:23:12 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29547 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:23:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.136] (sl110.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.136]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22824 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:22:56 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:23:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: pointless discussions To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812180937.JAA21980@nag.co.uk> At 09:37 +0000 1998/12/18, David Carlisle wrote: > I think this is the problem: People in the publishing industry buys all the > expensive Adobe licenced PS/PDF stuff and then only works with that, > because they have the money and do not want to risk incompatibilities. The > others are left out in the cold. ... >The problem with this argumemt is that the software that Berthold was >referring to was acrobat reader and the windows gdi printing system. >The first is free, the second is not, but I would not say that someone >with a windows box was necessarily classed as rich. Incompatibilities show up, for example, when tries to use a system not using PS (say in the OS in the printer): I used an Apple MacOS system based entirely on Quickdraw (introduced by Apple in order to avoid Adobe license fees), and the within that system converted DVI files to PDF, and it did not work out -- for some reason, the PS CM fonts did not convert as expected. (That is, the PDF files created were unusable within Acrobat Reader, for some reason I do not know.) So those problems do exist, that I am sure of. So I realized that the safest thing is to stick to this PS stuff entirely. I also know that this is what they do in the graphics industry here in Sweden: A typical setup might be a Mac with PS, using PageMaker and PS printers all the way, and other things they know that others typically use. This way one avoids incompatibilities. Other formats (like MS Word), one tries convert into this PS setup, before working it. So this is like a small niche scientific community, always using TeX and DVI. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 18-Dec-1998 13:51:48-GMT,1963;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24558 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:51:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA04654; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:34:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413715 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:34:11 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04644 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:34:03 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id NAA25766; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:33:23 GMT References: (message from Hans Aberg on Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:23:13 +0100) Message-ID: <199812181333.NAA25766@nag.co.uk> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:33:23 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: pointless discussions To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: (message from Hans Aberg on Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:27:00 +0100) > I find it about as exciting in private conversations as in public > conversations. However, it is normally considered (and in fact, is) impolite to forward private mail to a public list. David 18-Dec-1998 13:53:09-GMT,2976;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24580 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:53:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA04265; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:28:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413709 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:28:16 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04252 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:28:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.136] (sl04.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.24]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28244 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:28:11 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: (message from Hans Aberg on Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:23:13 +0100) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:27:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: pointless discussions To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812181230.MAA23708@nag.co.uk> At 12:30 +0000 1998/12/18, David Carlisle wrote: >[taken off the list, I am sure people are tired of this by now] I find it about as exciting in private conversations as in public conversations. >> (That is, the PDF files created were unusable within Acrobat >> Reader, for some reason I do not know.) > >By all accounts acrobat on a mac is decidedly unstable. >But the fact that a piece of software doesn't work as advertised does >not mean that it makes sense to criticise it on the grounds of expense, >given that it is distributed for free. As far as I know, it was not the problem of the MacOS version of Acrobat, which seemed to work just fine, but the incompatibility between the QuickDraw and PS systems. So if one would accept pdfTeX as a standard, one could as well accept quickdrawTeX as a standard, or the version of PS that HP uses, I mean, if the idea is to sponsor a commercial company. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 18-Dec-1998 16:29:19-GMT,2592;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27886 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:29:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA13848; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:03:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413874 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:03:29 +0100 Received: from ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.232.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13814 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:03:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14575 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:02:37 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id RAA11630; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:10:01 +0100 (MET) References: <199812181333.NAA25766@nag.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199812181610.RAA11630@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:10:01 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Re: pointless discussions To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812181333.NAA25766@nag.co.uk> Concernant « Re: pointless discussions », David Carlisle écrit : « » > I find it about as exciting in private conversations as in public » > conversations. » » However, it is normally considered (and in fact, is) impolite to forward » private mail to a public list. It France it is even illegal, because of obscure privacy concerns... The discussion about the interest in PDF related to its being more or less commercial is completely stupid. Maybe is it time not only to go private but simply to stop it! Thierry Bouche, Grenoble. 18-Dec-1998 17:35:56-GMT,3095;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29802 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:35:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA21949; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:16:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413930 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:16:15 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21923 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:16:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.136] (sl43.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.63]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15292 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:15:59 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <199812181333.NAA25766@nag.co.uk> <199812181333.NAA25766@nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:15:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: pointless discussions To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812181610.RAA11630@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> At 17:10 +0100 1998/12/18, Thierry Bouche wrote: >It France it is even illegal, because of obscure privacy concerns... If it applies to email, which is a crossing between normal conversation and regular mail. I think also that the this a principle of what one might expect: If it is normal in some circuit to forward regular mail in France, then if that was brought to court, the might be judged to be legal. >The discussion about the interest in PDF related to its being more or >less commercial is completely stupid. Maybe is it time not only to go >private but simply to stop it! As far as me, I had the intention stop before David Carlisle interfered with his "pointless discussions". I think though that the fact that PDF is a commercial product makes it a bad idea to make it a new DVI for TeX. However, a new extended DVI for TeX could be used to convert, perhaps even automatically to PDF. This way one would get away from the commercial concerns governing the development of PDF. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 18-Dec-1998 17:35:58-GMT,2561;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29805 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:35:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA21921; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:16:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413927 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:15:59 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21902 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:15:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.136] (sl43.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.63]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15285 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:15:55 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: (message from Hans Aberg on Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:27:00 +0100) (message from Hans Aberg on Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:23:13 +0100) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:16:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: pointless discussions To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812181333.NAA25766@nag.co.uk> At 13:33 +0000 1998/12/18, David Carlisle wrote: >> I find it about as exciting in private conversations as in public >> conversations. > >However, it is normally considered (and in fact, is) impolite to forward >private mail to a public list. Only in the case the conversation is private in nature, I think. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 18-Dec-1998 18:40:35-GMT,2877;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01585 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:40:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA26872; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:21:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413978 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:21:51 +0100 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26865 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:21:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from MAUI (maui.ai.mit.edu [128.52.37.105]) by life.ai.mit.edu (8.9.1/AI2.7/ai.master.life:2.2) with SMTP id NAA06953 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:21:35 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <199812181230.MAA23708@nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981218131742.00adb800@tiac.net> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:21:09 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: pointless discussions To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 14:27 1998-12-18 +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: >>> (That is, the PDF files created were unusable within Acrobat >>> Reader, for some reason I do not know.) >>By all accounts acrobat on a mac is decidedly unstable. >>But the fact that a piece of software doesn't work as advertised does >>not mean that it makes sense to criticise it on the grounds of expense, >>given that it is distributed for free. >As far as I know, it was not the problem of the MacOS version of Acrobat, >which seemed to work just fine, but the incompatibility between the >QuickDraw and PS systems. This is more a statement of some user or some application not knowing what they are doing. The general assumption being that you need to know nothing about Acrobat before using it. It requires some knowledge, just as with PostScript. And with sufficient knowledge you can produce fairly robust output in either formats. Of course, what this has to do with anything, I do not know. Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com 18-Dec-1998 19:38:51-GMT,3353;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04276 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:38:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA29894; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:13:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414000 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:13:04 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29887 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:13:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.136] (sl27.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.47]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA22354 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:13:00 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <199812181230.MAA23708@nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:13:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: pointless discussions To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981218131742.00adb800@tiac.net> At 13:21 -0500 1998/12/18, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: >>As far as I know, it was not the problem of the MacOS version of Acrobat, >>which seemed to work just fine, but the incompatibility between the >>QuickDraw and PS systems. > >This is more a statement of some user or some application not knowing >what they are doing. The general assumption being that you need to know >nothing about Acrobat before using it. It requires some knowledge, >just as with PostScript. And with sufficient knowledge you can produce >fairly robust output in either formats. When I say it has nothing with Acrobat to do, it is because Acrobat never was involved. The files produced by a conversion program were corrupted simply. This does not happen because there is anything inherently wrong with the file formats, but because the companies developing this (in this case Apple and Acrobat) do not have any strong self-interest to make it not happen: Often the opposite is true, one has the local formats and programs, and one tries to help users into that environment, but if other incompatibilities happen that is often an advantage to the company. I mean this is just a fact to the whole computer industry, so I do not understand people here try to claim anything otherwise. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 19-Dec-1998 12:28:28-GMT,3292;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA23327 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 05:28:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA22647; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:14:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413273 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:14:37 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA22640 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:14:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zrLHH-0007Vd-00; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:14:35 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:14:32 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:48:16 EST." <4.1.19981217194302.01f2e270@pop.tiac.net> > There was the `DVI standards' committee. It refused to address the > real issues including \special{...} at a point where it might actually have made > some difference. Hence lost a great chance to prevent a huge mess. > (They did however discuss how many angels can fit into one scaled point). i think they were overawed with the effort required to write a standard. i told 'em so when they started: i also told 'em about the angels/pin head danger... the standard they produced was intended to be extended into areas where it might actually have been useful (in berthold's sense) but i guess they were `whacked' after what they did do. i'm not surprised: writing standards (with any degree of rigour) requires stamina -- it's not something i would undertake as a voluntary, spare-time, project. incidentally, i would contest william hammond's curious assertion that dvi is in some sense a `higher level' format than pdf or ps. in any document modelling i've ever read (e.g., oda, for which i gave a reference a while back), all three fit at the bottom of the tree, being non-revisable[*] forms. that no package exists to create dvi from pdf or ps merely represents the futility of making such a transformation -- it doesn't suggest that the transformation is impossible. i agree with berthold: let's stay at the top level -- the revisable (la)tex input file. arguing about output formats, whether they be aimed at the dot-matrix printer or reasonably generic gets us absolutely nowhere imo. robin [*] which is not to say they _couldn't_ be edited, merely that no-one in their right mind _would_ edit them in the ordinary course of events. 19-Dec-1998 14:02:04-GMT,3071;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24859 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:01:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA25486; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:47:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413320 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:47:30 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25479 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:47:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-1.tiac.net (mail-out-1.tiac.net [199.0.65.12]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA08889 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:47:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from yandy (p21.tc1.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.22]) by mail-out-1.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20513 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:47:12 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151705.LAA18886@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981219084332.00a8e4a0@pop.tiac.net> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:45:03 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812161259.GAA21106@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> At 06:59 AM 12/16/98 -0600, Randolph J. Herber wrote: >Please supply a usable URL. That one causes errors in my browser. >For example, going to http://www.ifconnection.de/~tm/e/pdfmark/index.html >results in a usable URL. This was obtained by reading the HTML directly >to avoid the errors. One should make one's WWW pages _usable_ with >imageless, text only and frameless pages access, cookies should not be >required for access, etc. Darn! The page doesn't show properly in Notepad either! What people will do to stymie us poor web netizens! Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. phone: (508) 371-3286 fax: (508) 371-2004 (USA) mailto:support@YandY.com mailto:sales@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com http://www.YandY.com/unique.htm 19-Dec-1998 14:05:13-GMT,3721;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24917 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:05:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA25646; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:53:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413325 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:53:08 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25639 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:53:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05825 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:52:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from yandy (p21.tc1.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.22]) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA15302 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 03:52:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13943.35834.346967.222803@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981219084609.00a8fc60@pop.tiac.net> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:49:18 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y Inc." Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 04:15 PM 12/16/98 +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: >Otherwise, I think it is great that Acrobat Reader and part of use of PDF >are for free -- I wrote to an Adobe executive in the days they were not and >told him they would make more money that by changing that, and he responded >that is was a great idea, and after that they changed it. Wow! I am impressed! You know, those damn fools won't even answer my phone calls :-) >>no. with pdfTeX you can get direct access to PDF as you >>compose the TeX. an obvious example where pdftex is needed is >>to allow breaking of links across lines and pages - theoretically >>possibly in a dvi->ps->pdf, but I havent seen anyone do it. >These are kind of examples that I am looking: One should work directly with >an enhanced DVI, so that one does not get dependant on a long chain of fixes. It would be nice if TeX supported color the same way it does fonts also. Y&Y, Inc. phone: (508) 371-3286 fax: (508) 371-2004 (USA) mailto:support@YandY.com mailto:sales@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com http://www.YandY.com/unique.htm 19-Dec-1998 14:07:12-GMT,3214;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24968 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:07:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA25705; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:54:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413332 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:54:38 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25698 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:54:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-4.tiac.net (mail-out-4.tiac.net [199.0.65.16]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18454 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:54:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from yandy (p21.tc1.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.22]) by mail-out-4.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17190 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:53:30 GMT (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13943.35662.403959.906992@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13943.35662.403959.906992@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981219085021.00a8ebc0@pop.tiac.net> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:51:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981216160925.A18738@maths.tcd.ie> At 04:09 PM 12/16/98 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote: >On Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:28:30AM +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> no. with pdfTeX you can get direct access to PDF as you >> compose the TeX. an obvious example where pdftex is needed is >> to allow breaking of links across lines and pages >But can PDF break links across pages ? -- >it's quite surprising if it can, >as it seems very page-oriented. >I thought a link had to belong to a page ? That is the point. You have to split the link into two parts before you turn it into PDF code. Which is a non-trivial exercise in TeX! Y&Y, Inc. phone: (508) 371-3286 fax: (508) 371-2004 (USA) mailto:support@YandY.com mailto:sales@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com http://www.YandY.com/unique.htm 19-Dec-1998 14:15:34-GMT,4611;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25069 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:15:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA25927; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:02:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413335 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:02:30 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25920 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:02:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01754 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:02:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from yandy (p21.tc1.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.22]) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA15758 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 04:03:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981219085325.00af04c0@pop.tiac.net> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:00:02 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812161808.MAA21879@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> At 12:08 PM 12/16/98 -0600, Randolph J. Herber wrote: >|Randolph J. Herber writes: >| > Adobe PDF address the fonts issues by including scaled and >| > bitmapped used character subsets of the fonts used when those >| > fonts are available at the time of conversion and if the >|no, Acrobat Distiller does this, PDF does not. keep the distinction Distiller does not include bitmapped fonts unless the fonts in the PS file are bitmapped. Conversely, if the fonts in the PS file are bitmapped it will include those instead of outline fonts. The choice of bitmapped versus outline is made by whoever or whatever produces the PS file. PDF can support either format, although the Acrobat Reader does not show up bitmapped fonts well at all. >| > the file). Adobe PDF addresses the included figures by >| > converting the images to bitmaps if converters for that >| > figure type is available (otherwise, as I understand the Distiller does not convert vector drawings to bitmapped images. Again, the decisions has been made by the time you feed it PS. Distiller *can* optionally reduce the sampling rate and compress the bitmapped images. But it will never turn vector drawings into bitmaps. >|sorry? are you talking perhaps about Acrobat Exchange? NOT the way I'd >|recommend you make PDF files. > If the figures are not Adobe PostScript level 1 or self > capable of reducing themselves to that level, then the > only practical choice is to bitmap the images, which then > can be converted to Adobe EPSF at Adobe PostScript level 1. > Adobe PostScript level 1 is a requirement from considerations > of portability. Not at all. Distiller understands PS level II. No need to dumb down your PS. It is up to the printer driver on the Reader side to use PS level I or PS level II whichever is appropriate. Certainly there is no conversion to bitmaps when meeting level II code. Maybe tune in to comp.text.pdf? Maybe read http://www.YandY.com/download/pdf_from.pdf Maybe check out Donald Story's `AcroTeX' web page: http://www.math.uakron.edu/~dpstory/ Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. phone: (508) 371-3286 fax: (508) 371-2004 (USA) mailto:support@YandY.com mailto:sales@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com http://www.YandY.com/unique.htm 19-Dec-1998 15:45:53-GMT,3478;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26489 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:45:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA28246; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:30:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413383 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:30:02 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28228 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:30:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.145] (sl43.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.63]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19316 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:29:58 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <13943.35834.346967.222803@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:24:32 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981219084609.00a8fc60@pop.tiac.net> At 08:49 -0500 1998/12/19, Y&Y Inc. wrote: >>Otherwise, I think it is great that Acrobat Reader and part of use of PDF >>are for free -- I wrote to an Adobe executive in the days they were not and >>told him they would make more money that by changing that, and he responded >>that is was a great idea, and after that they changed it. > >Wow! I am impressed! >You know, those damn fools won't even answer my phone calls :-) In my experience, executives on companies like Apple, and perhaps Adobe then too, that reply often quickly move to another company. I also know that the developers ARNS, which was intended to be integrated with the MacOS, also could not get replies from Apple. So it is perhaps the same thing with Adobe, too. So unless PDF is considered as a finished product that never will change anymore, and you know for sure that it will satisfy all your future needs, it is not wise using it as a new DVI format for TeX. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 19-Dec-1998 15:46:11-GMT,2782;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26494 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:45:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA28261; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:30:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413386 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:30:18 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28241 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:30:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.145] (sl43.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.63]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19324 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:30:02 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <19981216160925.A18738@maths.tcd.ie> <13943.35662.403959.906992@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13943.35662.403959.906992@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:30:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981219085021.00a8ebc0@pop.tiac.net> At 08:51 -0500 1998/12/19, Y&Y Inc. wrote: >>But can PDF break links across pages ? -- .. >...You have to split the link into two parts before >you turn it into PDF code. Which is a non-trivial exercise in TeX! This is probably due to the lack of OO (Object Orientation) in TeX: A new DVI must be fully object oriented, so that it is possible for other processing tools to easily extract the information needed. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 19-Dec-1998 15:54:25-GMT,2755;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26615 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:54:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA28514; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:39:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413389 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:39:00 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA28507 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:38:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zrOT4-0007lG-00; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:38:59 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:38:56 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:30:31 +0100." > At 08:51 -0500 1998/12/19, Y&Y Inc. wrote: > >>But can PDF break links across pages ? -- > .. > >...You have to split the link into two parts before > >you turn it into PDF code. Which is a non-trivial exercise in TeX! > > This is probably due to the lack of OO (Object Orientation) in TeX: A new > DVI must be fully object oriented, so that it is possible for other > processing tools to easily extract the information needed. it is of course absolutely nothing whatever to do with object orientation in tex or the lack of it. it's to do with what bits of a paragraph tex makes available to the user after it's been split into lines (not, as it happens, a lot). how those bits would be made accessible, if that was going to happen) is a matter that could differ according to whether the underlying engine was trying to exhibit object orientation or not, but waving a magic o-o wand over tex won't alter the way it works in the smallest particular. and it is of course completely irrelevant to the discussion of latex and/or its portability. [sorry, everyone else. i know i shouldn't have responded...] robin 19-Dec-1998 17:51:26-GMT,3765;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28547 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:51:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA02262; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:28:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413438 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:28:13 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02246 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:28:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27228 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:28:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from yandy (p43.tc2.bedfo.MA.tiac.com [209.61.104.108]) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA23520 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:29:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <4.1.19981219084609.00a8fc60@pop.tiac.net> <13943.35834.346967.222803@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981219122422.00a90790@pop.tiac.net> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:26:28 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y Inc." Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 04:24 PM 12/19/98 +0100, Hans Aberg wrote: >At 08:49 -0500 1998/12/19, Y&Y Inc. wrote: >>>Otherwise, I think it is great that Acrobat Reader and part of use of PDF >>>are for free -- I wrote to an Adobe executive in the days they were not and >>>told him they would make more money that by changing that, and he responded >>>that is was a great idea, and after that they changed it. >>Wow! I am impressed! >>You know, those damn fools won't even answer my phone calls :-) >In my experience, executives on companies like Apple, and perhaps Adobe >then too, that reply often quickly move to another company. I also know >that the developers ARNS, which was intended to be integrated with the >MacOS, also could not get replies from Apple. So it is perhaps the same Have you ever heard of `sarcasm' :-)? Don't take yourself so serious... Y&Y, Inc. phone: (508) 371-3286 fax: (508) 371-2004 (USA) mailto:support@YandY.com mailto:sales@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com http://www.YandY.com/unique.htm 19-Dec-1998 21:12:22-GMT,2896;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01873 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:12:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA07934; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:54:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413517 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:54:20 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07924 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:54:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.77] (sl57.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.77]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA01713 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:54:16 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <4.1.19981219084609.00a8fc60@pop.tiac.net> <13943.35834.346967.222803@srahtz> <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <13941.7255.489674.140731@srahtz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:54:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981219122422.00a90790@pop.tiac.net> At 12:26 -0500 1998/12/19, Y&Y Inc. wrote: >Have you ever heard of `sarcasm' :-)? Don't take yourself so serious... Well, the sophisticated variation of sarcasm is to analyze the underlying social factors of the phenomenon on which it depends... Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 19-Dec-1998 21:12:32-GMT,2728;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01871 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:12:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA07966; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:54:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413520 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:54:56 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07935 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:54:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.77] (sl57.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.77]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA01716 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:54:19 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: Your message of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:30:31 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:54:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 15:38 +0000 1998/12/19, Robin Fairbairns wrote: >it is of course absolutely nothing whatever to do with object >orientation in tex or the lack of it. it's to do with what bits of a >paragraph tex makes available to the user after it's been split into >lines (not, as it happens, a lot). how those bits would be made >accessible, if that was going to happen) is a matter that could differ >according to whether the underlying engine was trying to exhibit >object orientation or not, but waving a magic o-o wand over tex won't >alter the way it works in the smallest particular. Well, that's the OO of the output language; and in order to get that OO in the output language, you will need an engine able to process OO. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 19-Dec-1998 21:24:57-GMT,2260;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02095 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:24:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA08277; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:05:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413528 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:05:26 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08266 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:05:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.77] (sl109.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.135]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02017 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:05:22 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: Your message of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:30:31 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:05:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 15:38 +0000 1998/12/19, Robin Fairbairns wrote: >and it is of course completely irrelevant to the discussion of latex >and/or its portability. Except of course that the OO aspect of proper encapsulation is of paramount importance for these topics... Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 20-Dec-1998 14:48:49-GMT,2870;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA19129 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 07:48:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA27345; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:25:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413722 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:25:28 +0100 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA27334 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:25:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 20 Dec 98 14:25:25 +0000 (GMT) References: <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> <4.1.19981215084146.00ae2920@pop.tiac.net> <19981217175813.A17648@maths.tcd.ie> <4.1.19981217150110.00a3fbc0@pop.tiac.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Message-ID: <19981220142525.D518@maths.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:25:25 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981217150110.00a3fbc0@pop.tiac.net>; from Y&Y, Inc. on Thu, Dec 17, 1998 at 03:03:43PM -0500 On Thu, Dec 17, 1998 at 03:03:43PM -0500, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: > >> I still don't get it. I can print Acrobat PDF files to any device including > >> a fax board. ... Maybe this is a platform specific issue? > > >You can, but I can't. Probably because you are rich. > > Not sure I get it. The Acrobat Reader is free. > And on platforms that support printers you can print > from Acrobat Reader to anything that comes with a > working printer driver. Apologies. I don't live in the Happy, Happy Micro$oft world. We poor Linux-ers sometimes forget how our lucky brethren live. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 20-Dec-1998 15:18:35-GMT,7776;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA19608 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:18:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA28233; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:44:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413762 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:44:36 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA28224 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:44:34 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id IAA03397; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:44:33 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <199812201444.IAA03397@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:44:33 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The following header lines retained to affect attribution: |Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:00:02 -0500 |Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project |From: "Y&Y Inc." |Subject: Re: portable LaTeX |To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L |At 12:08 PM 12/16/98 -0600, Randolph J. Herber wrote: |>|Randolph J. Herber writes: ... I accept your other `corrections' even though my experience contradicts those statements. |> If the figures are not Adobe PostScript level 1 or self |> capable of reducing themselves to that level, then the |> only practical choice is to bitmap the images, which then |> can be converted to Adobe EPSF at Adobe PostScript level 1. |> Adobe PostScript level 1 is a requirement from considerations |> of portability. |Not at all. Distiller understands PS level II. No need to dumb down |your PS. It is up to the printer driver on the Reader side to use |PS level I or PS level II whichever is appropriate. Certainly there |is no conversion to bitmaps when meeting level II code. I repeat and stand by my original statement ``Adobe PostScript level 1 is a requirement _from considerations of portability_.'' I work daily with scientists scattered around the planet with problems generating, displaying and printing Abode Postscript language files and Adobe PDF. In the interest of portability, Adobe PostScript level 1 language files using internal supplied fonts or the ``original'' 13 fonts (4 each Times-Roman, Helvetica and Courier and Symbol) with proper DSC is the _only_ in-practical-fact portable format. The only reliable ``fix'' for Adobe PDF is to convert it to an Adobe PostScript language file and, if necessary (which it frequently is), forcefully by manual editting dumb it down to language level 1. Nothing else works reliably. PDF fails more frequently than anything else---most printers fail if given a PDF directly. As far as I can tell the _only_ reason for PDF is to protect Adobe's fonts for Adobe. Ghostview does not handle PDF files as input in any version that I am aware of. PDF files are frequently encrypted which causes problems by cryptography being illegal to export from several countries as military munitions and illegal to import into others without special permissions (e.g. France, Russia and the Peoples' Reuplic of China). As for Adobe PostScript language level 2, many applications do not generate proper ``dumbing down'' code---it has to be hand repaired to be portable and the easiest fix is to do a conversion to language level 1 at the same time. And, there are quite a few printers still in active use which are only Adobe PostScript language level 1. These printers are not going to be withdrawn from service just to make it convenient for you, Adobe or any one else. As for Adobe PostScript language level 3, there are very few level 3 printers or viewers available and they are hard to find. I _am quite willing to accept_ a stage of conversion from TeX DVI to Adobe PostScript language files. Until there are converters as competent as dvips and dvipsk are for converting DVI to Adobe PostScript language files for converting Adobe PDF to Adobe PostScript level 1 language files, I have no interest in a LaTeX that produces Adobe PDF instead of DVI. |Maybe tune in to comp.text.pdf? There does not seem to be much there: No articles under restriction. Restriction comp.text.pdf removed. |Maybe read http://www.YandY.com/download/pdf_from.pdf If you want this to be read, then put it up as an Adobe PostScript level 1 language file so that it generally can be read. Furthermore, to demonstrate the quality of that file: # xpdf pdf_from.pdf xpdf version 0.7a Copyright © 1996-1998 Derek B. Noonburg Error (0): PDF file is damaged - attempting to reconstruct xref table... Error: Top-level pages object is wrong type (null) Error: Couldn't read page catalog # pdf2ps pdf_from.pdf pdf_from.ps Error: /invalidaccess in --fileposition-- Operand stack: 49150 49139 (dup 99 /floor) (dup 99 /floorleft putt put<< \015/Linearized 1 \015/O 114 \015/H [ 964 520 ] \015/L 177710 \015/E 61162 \015/N 10 \015/T 175351 \015>> \015endobj\015 xref\015112 27 \0150000000016 00000 n\015\0120000000891 00000 n\015\0120000001484 00000 n\015\012000000167) 49139 --nostringval-- Execution stack: %interp_exit () --nostringval-- --nostringval-- --nostringval-- false --nostringval-- --nostringval-- --nostringval-- --nostringval-- --nostringval-- %loop_continue --nostringval-- --nostringval-- --nostringval-- Dictionary stack: --dict:677/701-- --dict:0/20-- --dict:47/200-- --dict:47/200-- --dict:112/119-- --dict:158/160-- --dict:4/10-- Current allocation mode is local |Maybe check out Donald Story's `AcroTeX' web page: |http://www.math.uakron.edu/~dpstory/ I tried it. I fail to see how it helps. I did see that it also has the same problems with respect to Adobe PDF that many WWW sites have with respect to html---you have to have ``bleeding'' edge software in order to use the material. Which is without consideration of the users' needs, wants, wishes or capacities. For example, general use WWW pages should be written to be usable by Lynx and Mosaic web browsers. If nothing else, then provide a text only button and a separate set of pages. If not, then, for example, provide alt= tags for images. |Regards, Berthold. |Y&Y, Inc. phone: (508) 371-3286 fax: (508) 371-2004 (USA) |mailto:support@YandY.com mailto:sales@YandY.com |http://www.YandY.com http://www.YandY.com/unique.htm Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 20-Dec-1998 17:24:53-GMT,8360;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA21669 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:24:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA04108; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:03:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413915 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:03:12 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04101 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:03:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04924 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:02:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p76.tc2.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.205]) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA11877 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 07:04:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <4.1.19981220114255.00a3d5e0@pop.tiac.net> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:02:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812201444.IAA03397@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> At 09:44 AM 98/12/20 , Randolph J. Herber wrote: >I repeat and stand by my original statement ``Adobe PostScript level 1 is >a requirement _from considerations of portability_.'' I work daily with >scientists scattered around the planet with problems generating, displaying >and printing Abode Postscript language files and Adobe PDF. In the interest >of portability, Adobe PostScript level 1 language files using internal >supplied fonts or the ``original'' 13 fonts (4 each Times-Roman, Helvetica >and Courier and Symbol) with proper DSC is the _only_ in-practical-fact >portable format. This merely reflects lack of knowledge of how to produce reliable PDF files. Or lack of access to a system that can produce reliable PDF files. Like good PS, it is non-trivial, and while we now forget how much education was required about PS in the beginning, the same is true about PDF. Just as we had then to struggle with buggy PS clone interpreters so we now have a bit of a struggle working around bugs in PDF Readers - including unfortunately the ones from Adobe. But it can be done. >The only reliable ``fix'' for Adobe PDF is to convert >it to an Adobe PostScript language file and, if necessary (which it >frequently is), forcefully by manual editting dumb it down to language >level 1. Nothing else works reliably. Really? Before we had PDF we had endless threads on how useless PS is because so many clone PS interpreters fail... >PDF fails more frequently than >anything else---most printers fail if given a PDF directly. Of course, why would you feed PDF to a printer? (OK, lets ignore PS 3). And I find printing from HTML browsers completely unreliable, while printing from Acrobat Reader works with properly prepared PDF. >As far as I can tell the _only_ reason for PDF is to protect Adobe's fonts for Adobe. What? How does it do that? It is almost as easy to steal fonts from PDF than from PDF. PDF is an output format that removes the programmatic aspects of PS (which lead to problems with clone PS interpreters) the result is smaller and easier to interrpret (does not require a full PS interpreter). >Ghostview does not handle PDF files as input in any version that I am >aware of. While I never us it, I understand recent versions do. >PDF files are frequently encrypted which causes problems by >cryptography being illegal to export from several countries as military >munitions and illegal to import into others without special permissions >(e.g. France, Russia and the Peoples' Reuplic of China). What? The compression schemes are described in detail so you can undo them. You can password protect the files, but with a low grade scheme that any government has the resources to break. I have never heard of such complaints. (Some unethical types on the net supply code to break PDF encryption - or provide an online service to do it for you - so you can print and alter PDF files that the author did not want you to print, alter or plagerize). >time. And, there are quite a few printers still in active use which >are only Adobe PostScript language level 1. These printers are not >going to be withdrawn from service just to make it convenient for you, >Adobe or any one else. We are talking about PDF here, and while you can certainly generate PDF from PS level II code, that does not mean you need a PS level II printer to print it - at all! The Acrobat Reader can print to anything that has a working printer driver. >I _am quite willing to accept_ a stage of conversion from TeX DVI to >Adobe PostScript language files. Until there are converters as >competent as dvips and dvipsk are for converting DVI to Adobe PostScript >language files for converting Adobe PDF to Adobe PostScript level 1 >language files, I have no interest in a LaTeX that produces Adobe PDF >instead of DVI. This is a separate issue. It is in fact not clear that TeX -> PDF is now or will be a viable alternative to TeX -> DVI. But none of the issues you or Hans have raised show anything but your lack of knowledge about Acrobat - not anything to do with why PDF may or may not be a good target language. >|Maybe tune in to comp.text.pdf? > There does not seem to be much there: Fix your news reader or news server than. Although, it is definitely not as swamped with the volume of comp.text.tex No long flame wars :-) >|Maybe read http://www.YandY.com/download/pdf_from.pdf > If you want this to be read, then put it up as an > Adobe PostScript level 1 language file so that it > generally can be read. Absolutely not. PS is a poor distribution format. And if you are interested in Acrobat PDF, the least you can do is install the free Acrobat Reader. > Furthermore, to demonstrate the quality of that file: ># xpdf pdf_from.pdf >xpdf version 0.7a >Copyright © 1996-1998 Derek B. Noonburg >Error (0): PDF file is damaged - attempting to reconstruct xref table... >Error: Top-level pages object is wrong type (null) >Error: Couldn't read page catalog ># pdf2ps pdf_from.pdf pdf_from.ps >Error: /invalidaccess in --fileposition-- (1) Transfer the file in binary more, not ASCII! (2) Get a decent PDF reader. >|Maybe check out Donald Story's `AcroTeX' web page: >|http://www.math.uakron.edu/~dpstory/ > I tried it. I fail to see how it helps. I did see that it also > has the same problems with respect to Adobe PDF that many WWW sites > have with respect to html---you have to have ``bleeding'' edge > software in order to use the material. Which is without > consideration of the users' needs, wants, wishes or capacities. > For example, general use WWW pages should be written to be usable > by Lynx and Mosaic web browsers. If nothing else, then provide > a text only button and a separate set of pages. If not, then, > for example, provide alt= tags for images. I'll have to ask Donald to rewrite his web site in plain ASCII (or EBCDIC?) Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 20-Dec-1998 20:34:13-GMT,14379;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24906 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:34:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA19473; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:09:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414202 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:09:12 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA19465 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:09:09 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA03976; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:09:09 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <199812202009.OAA03976@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:09:09 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The following header lines retained to affect attribution: |Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:02:38 -0500 |Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project |From: "Y&Y, Inc." |Subject: Re: portable LaTeX |To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L |At 09:44 AM 98/12/20 , Randolph J. Herber wrote: |>I repeat and stand by my original statement ``Adobe PostScript level 1 is |>a requirement _from considerations of portability_.'' I work daily with |>scientists scattered around the planet with problems generating, displaying |>and printing Abode Postscript language files and Adobe PDF. In the interest |>of portability, Adobe PostScript level 1 language files using internal |>supplied fonts or the ``original'' 13 fonts (4 each Times-Roman, Helvetica |>and Courier and Symbol) with proper DSC is the _only_ in-practical-fact |>portable format. |This merely reflects lack of knowledge of how to produce reliable PDF files. |Or lack of access to a system that can produce reliable PDF files. Your response merely reflects lack of knowledge and understanding of ``real world'' support issues. The world is not going to replace their systems which they perceive as good and functional with some special purpose system whose significant attribute is that it ``can produce reliable PDF files.'' If the reason that I can not remember when I last saw a functional PDF file is a general lack of knowledge among the creators and authors or a general lack of competent software for creating PDF, then that alone is a good reason not use PDF; presently, it is too hard or too expensive to get right. |Like good PS, it is non-trivial, and while we now forget how much education |was required about PS in the beginning, the same is true about PDF. |Just as we had then to struggle with buggy PS clone interpreters so we |now have a bit of a struggle working around bugs in PDF Readers - |including unfortunately the ones from Adobe. But it can be done. I have extensive support troubles with Adobe PostScript language also. I have owned my own personal Abode PostScript printer, a NEC LC890, for about a decade. I regularly handwrite Adobe PostScript code, sometimes multipage reports complete with linedrawing graphics. The problems I have and have had are nothing like the problems I have had trying to support my user communities at CDF, Fermilab and around the world when Adobe PDF is used. |>The only reliable ``fix'' for Adobe PDF is to convert |>it to an Adobe PostScript language file and, if necessary (which it |>frequently is), forcefully by manual editting dumb it down to language |>level 1. Nothing else works reliably. |Really? Before we had PDF we had endless threads on how useless PS is |because so many clone PS interpreters fail... Yes, really. It is necessary to use the lowest commonly available resources. It is unreasonable to demand that printers be upgraded to level 2 or 3 Adobe PostScript language. Many are using level 1 printers and will continue to use those printers until they can not be economically repaired (which takes sometimes a very long time in places like Russia and the other countries located within the former USSR, the Peoples' Republic of China, Vietnam, and so forth and a surprisingly long time elsewhere). Those who are using Ghostscript as a RIP for other classes of printers, such as HP Laserjet compatibles, ink jet or dot matrix are, in some sense more fortunate; they can replace more easily their RIP. I understand their experience; I started doing Adobe Postscript language files via Ghostscript to a Nec P6 Pinwriter. There are very few printers which will print PDF directly. The PDF has to be converted to something else first, usually Adobe PostScript language. Why not just distribute the Adobe PostScript language files instead, which can be sent directly to a printer (or at least a well-known scheme for printing)? |>PDF fails more frequently than |>anything else---most printers fail if given a PDF directly. |Of course, why would you feed PDF to a printer? (OK, lets ignore PS 3). Because PDF is presented as a method of doing printing in a much more portable manner. Because PDF is understood as being a print file format. One sends print files to printers. The same reason that a showpage command is permitted in Adobe EPSF. |And I find printing from HTML browsers completely unreliable, while |printing from Acrobat Reader works with properly prepared PDF. That is because, in accordance with your comments above, most of the people do not know that PDF is not printable and requires local conversion to printable form, probably Adobe PostScript language files in accordance with the local printer type and language level. For portability reasons, if the site has even one level 1 Adobe PostScript printer to which a print job may directed or redirected, then the language needs level 1. |>As far as I can tell the _only_ reason for PDF is to protect Adobe's fonts for Adobe. |What? How does it do that? It is almost as easy to steal fonts from PDF than from PDF. |PDF is an output format that removes the |programmatic aspects of PS (which lead to problems with clone PS interpreters) |the result is smaller and easier to interrpret (does not require a full PS interpreter). One of the functions of the Adobe Distiller, which is presented as being part of the Adobe PDF system, is the abstraction of fonts to just the characters actually used and the removal of the resizing information; effectively, this destroys the font for any other purpose. |>Ghostview does not handle PDF files as input in any version that I am |>aware of. Please, note that I said Ghostview, I did not say gv which runs on IBM PC compatibles nor Ghostscript which underlays Ghostview and which has handled PDF for sometime. |While I never use it, I understand recent versions do. |>PDF files are frequently encrypted which causes problems by |>cryptography being illegal to export from several countries as military |>munitions and illegal to import into others without special permissions |>(e.g. France, Russia and the Peoples' Reuplic of China). |What? The compression schemes are described in detail so you |can undo them. You can password protect the files, but with a low grade |scheme that any government has the resources to break. I have never |heard of such complaints. (Some unethical types on the net |supply code to break PDF encryption - or provide an online service |to do it for you - so you can print and alter PDF files that the author |did not want you to print, alter or plagerize). I understand the difference between compression and cryptography, how they interact and how, at times, compression may be used as a `poor person's encryption.' I meant encryption when I mentioned that PDF are frequently encrypted. Some of those governments do not accept even PDF's level of encryption. The poor ethics of others is not part of this issue. |>time. And, there are quite a few printers still in active use which |>are only Adobe PostScript language level 1. These printers are not |>going to be withdrawn from service just to make it convenient for you, |>Adobe or any one else. |We are talking about PDF here, and while you can certainly generate PDF from |PS level II code, that does not mean you need a PS level II printer to print it - at all! |The Acrobat Reader can print to anything that has a working printer driver. Please read the following carefully and closely. Not every computer in the world is a IBM or Apple PC compatible. Not every operating system in the world is IBM or Apple compatible. Printer vendors seldom supply conversion programs (what you call a printer driver above) for anything but an IBM or Apple PC compatible computer which is running a Microsoft, IBM or Apple operating system. Adobe does not supply Distiller or Acrobat Reader for many of these systems. Adobe does not supply open source for Distiller or Acrobat Reader. People are not going to buy such systems just to print PDF. In all the outputs from Adobe Acrobat Reader conversions to Adobe PostScript language files which I have read, even when level 1 output was requested or the file declared that it was level 1 Adobe PostScript language, I found level 2 elements in a path that would be executed on a level 1 display or printer hence the file was actually level 2 which would fail on such a display or printer. |>I _am quite willing to accept_ a stage of conversion from TeX DVI to |>Adobe PostScript language files. Until there are converters as |>competent as dvips and dvipsk are for converting DVI to Adobe PostScript |>language files for converting Adobe PDF to Adobe PostScript level 1 |>language files, I have no interest in a LaTeX that produces Adobe PDF |>instead of DVI. |This is a separate issue. It is in fact not clear that TeX -> PDF is now or |will be a viable alternative to TeX -> DVI. But none of the issues you |or Hans have raised show anything but your lack of knowledge about Acrobat - |not anything to do with why PDF may or may not be a good target language. |>|Maybe tune in to comp.text.pdf? |> There does not seem to be much there: |Fix your news reader or news server than. Although, it is definitely not as |swamped with the volume of comp.text.tex No long flame wars :-) The site's news reader is not one of my support functions. Bad PDF files and SGI Irix and Linux support issues give me more than enough to do. |>|Maybe read http://www.YandY.com/download/pdf_from.pdf |> If you want this to be read, then put it up as an |> Adobe PostScript level 1 language file so that it |> generally can be read. |Absolutely not. PS is a poor distribution format. And if you are interested |in Acrobat PDF, the least you can do is install the free Acrobat Reader. Adobe PostScript is a better, not a worse, portable distribution format. Legally, I can not install Acrobat Reader---I have to obtain legal approval of its license from our legal department. I have obtained already permission for xpdf and ghostview; that should have been sufficient. Why can not you provide at least a PDF file that works with the open source converters? You were the one that suggested I read that file. I made the attempt. It is now your problem to provide a solution. I suggested one: provide an Adobe PostScript language version. |> Furthermore, to demonstrate the quality of that file: |># xpdf pdf_from.pdf |>xpdf version 0.7a |>Copyright © 1996-1998 Derek B. Noonburg |>Error (0): PDF file is damaged - attempting to reconstruct xref table... |>Error: Top-level pages object is wrong type (null) |>Error: Couldn't read page catalog |># pdf2ps pdf_from.pdf pdf_from.ps |>Error: /invalidaccess in --fileposition-- |(1) Transfer the file in binary more, not ASCII! You can keep your insults to yourself. If you can not understand why this is an insult, then you have even more problems than I have come to understand from your other postings. BIG CLUE---WWW transfers are binary. |(2) Get a decent PDF reader. I did. You get a PDF maker that works. |>|Maybe check out Donald Story's `AcroTeX' web page: |>|http://www.math.uakron.edu/~dpstory/ |> I tried it. I fail to see how it helps. I did see that it also |> has the same problems with respect to Adobe PDF that many WWW sites |> have with respect to html---you have to have ``bleeding'' edge |> software in order to use the material. Which is without |> consideration of the users' needs, wants, wishes or capacities. |> For example, general use WWW pages should be written to be usable |> by Lynx and Mosaic web browsers. If nothing else, then provide |> a text only button and a separate set of pages. If not, then, |> for example, provide alt= tags for images. |I'll have to ask Donald to rewrite his web site in plain ASCII (or EBCDIC?) ASCII is the correct character set for html. |Regards, Berthold. |Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 20-Dec-1998 21:33:41-GMT,3824;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25928 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:33:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA21837; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:12:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414265 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:12:04 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21830 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:12:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09898 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id QAA23906 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:11:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812202111.QAA23906@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:11:47 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Randolph -- This is private because it has become quite far from LaTeX3 development. I agree with you about "lynx", which in its own way is very much up to date, not about "mosaic", which, at least for NCSA, is no longer supported. I also agree about lowest common denominators in general. I find, however, that many people whom I find reasonable otherwise, are of closed mind about least common denominators because they do not care about those without one of a few mass market platform/os combinations. This applies even to people in the academic world. I wonder if you know that many agencies of the U.S. government and many agencies of state government are now very focused on the use of PDF. For example, NSF now requires the use of PDF with some submitted materials. It's positively Orwellian. Most seem to prefer serving pdf to ps on the web because (1) it is perceived that very few in target audiences have ps viewing (2) it is perceived that most in target audiences have pdf viewing (3) pdf consumes somewhat less bandwidth than ps, which is important for those with dialup web connections : One of the functions of the Adobe Distiller, which is presented as being : part of the Adobe PDF system, is the abstraction of fonts to just the : characters actually used and the removal of the resizing information; : effectively, this destroys the font for any other purpose. resizing information? I don't know quite what this means. I believe that using "distiller" on ps files with type 1 fonts leads to scalable pdf. : |>|Maybe read http://www.YandY.com/download/pdf_from.pdf More to the point: rather than adding only ps it is a shame that there is not a parallel (lynx-readable) HTML version made from the same original sgml/xml source. : BIG CLUE---WWW transfers are binary. Perhaps you mean http? (ftp is a protocol under the www, as are also gopher and telnet.) Even then I would want to double check the http spec to make sure that some mime types are not understood to be 7 bit. -- Bill 20-Dec-1998 22:09:44-GMT,2653;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26536 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:09:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA23244; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:50:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414302 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:50:50 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23235 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:50:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16032 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:50:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p16.tc5.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.76.17]) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA20821 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:52:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981220164635.00a44c70@pop.tiac.net> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:50:32 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812202111.QAA23906@hilbert.math.albany.edu> At 04:11 PM 98/12/20 , William F. Hammond wrote: >: |>|Maybe read http://www.YandY.com/download/pdf_from.pdf >More to the point: rather than adding only ps it is a shame that there >is not a parallel (lynx-readable) (1) There would be little point to describe how to make quality PDF to people who do not have a PDF Reader. The whole point is to provide an alternative to plain ASCII, HTML, PS and DVI. > HTML version made from the same original sgml/xml source. (2) What original HTML/SGML/XML source? The source is TeX code. Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 20-Dec-1998 22:09:04-GMT,7248;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26531 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:09:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA23051; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:45:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414292 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:45:47 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23044 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:45:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-3.tiac.net (mail-out-3.tiac.net [199.0.65.15]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24477; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:45:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p16.tc5.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.76.17]) by mail-out-3.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23511; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:45:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981220162712.00a3f940@pop.tiac.net> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:44:57 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812202009.OAA03976@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> At 03:09 PM 98/12/20 , Randolph J. Herber wrote: >Yes, really. It is necessary to use the lowest commonly available >resources. It is unreasonable to demand that printers be upgraded >to level 2 or 3 Adobe PostScript language. What has this to do with PDF? You are still somehow saying that you need a level II printer to print from Acrobat Reader. >Because PDF is presented as a method of doing printing in a much more >portable manner. Because PDF is understood as being a print file format. >One sends print files to printers. The same reason that a showpage >command is permitted in Adobe EPSF. Sorry, but I came in when PDF was for on screen viewing. It happens also to be printable. But the idea is to reduce the need to cut down trees. I hear that recently people have pushed the idea of using PDF for high quality service bureau work as well, but I remain sceptical of that. >|And I find printing from HTML browsers completely unreliable, while >|printing from Acrobat Reader works with properly prepared PDF. >That is because, in accordance with your comments above, most of the >people do not know that PDF is not printable and requires local conversion I am not talking about PDF here. I am pointing out that of the two common formats for publishing things on line the one that is *harder* to print reliably is HTML. I have no trouble printing PDF, even on my level I printer :-) >to printable form, probably Adobe PostScript language files in accordance >with the local printer type and language level. For portability reasons, >if the site has even one level 1 Adobe PostScript printer to which a print >job may directed or redirected, then the language needs level 1. Here we go again. I have a level I printer and never had trouble printing from Acrobat Reader. >One of the functions of the Adobe Distiller, which is presented as being >part of the Adobe PDF system, is the abstraction of fonts to just the >characters actually used and the removal of the resizing information; >effectively, this destroys the font for any other purpose. No resizing information is removed (whatever that is). And yes, partial fonts are generated - just as with DVIPSONE (and now DVIPS). So the `partial font issue' occurs in PS as well as PDF. >I understand the difference between compression and cryptography, how >they interact and how, at times, compression may be used as a `poor >person's encryption.' I meant encryption when I mentioned that PDF >are frequently encrypted. Some of those governments do not accept >even PDF's level of encryption. I didn't know that. Personally, I have never come across an encrypted PDF file. On the other hand, I have seen PS files zipped with a password... >|Absolutely not. PS is a poor distribution format. And if you are interested >|in Acrobat PDF, the least you can do is install the free Acrobat Reader. > Adobe PostScript is a better, not a worse, portable distribution > format. Legally, I can not install Acrobat Reader---I have to > obtain legal approval of its license from our legal department. ? Isn't the licensing information on Acrobat Reader enough ? > I have obtained already permission for xpdf and ghostview; that > should have been sufficient. Why can not you provide at least > a PDF file that works with the open source converters? The file you are referring to is plain vanilla PDF. It has purposefully not been made using the latest bells and whistles (it is not optimized e.g.) If a `PDF Reader' can't read it then it is not a PDF Reader. Of course, I don't know what happened to the file on the way - > You were the one that suggested I read that file. I made the > attempt. It is now your problem to provide a solution. I > suggested one: provide an Adobe PostScript language version The minimum threshold for making quality PDF files from TeX is to have a working PDF Reader. Without that the information in the file is of no use. >|(1) Transfer the file in binary more, not ASCII! > You can keep your insults to yourself. > If you can not understand why this is an insult, > then you have even more problems than I have > come to understand from your other postings. > BIG CLUE---WWW transfers are binary. Really? When I click on a link that NetScape does not understand it will transfer it in ASCII mode. Now you may consider this a bug in NetScape, and it sure is irritating, but it demonstrates that file transfer on WWW *can* be done incorrectly. I have to hold down the shift key to get it to do the right thing! How large is the file you got after downloading? If you continue having problems, ZIP it up and email it to me. Or I can ZIP it up and email it. Less chance of corruption that way. >|(2) Get a decent PDF reader. > I did. You get a PDF maker that works. I wonder whether anyone else has problems reading PDF files like http://www.YandY.com/download/pdf_from.pdf Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 20-Dec-1998 22:45:53-GMT,1961;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27178 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:45:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA24478; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 23:24:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414338 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 23:24:45 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24470 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 23:24:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11040 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:24:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id RAA24264 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:24:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199812202224.RAA24264@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:24:27 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L I wrote: : Randolph -- : : This is private because it has become quite far from LaTeX3 : development. I meant that to be private. I apologize to the list for my mail handling error. -- Bill 21-Dec-1998 0:18:41-GMT,2999;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28685 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:18:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA28576; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:52:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413581 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:52:52 +0100 Received: from hal.plmsc.psu.edu (hal.plmsc.psu.edu [128.118.156.73]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA28569 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:52:49 +0100 (MET) Received: (from boris@localhost) by hal.plmsc.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04199; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:52:43 -0500 References: <13941.1847.962384.902117@srahtz> <19981214165125.B29182@maths.tcd.ie> <19981214185052.A8449@maths.tcd.ie> <19981215025214.A3729@maths.tcd.ie> <4.1.19981215084146.00ae2920@pop.tiac.net> <19981217175813.A17648@maths.tcd.ie> <4.1.19981217150110.00a3fbc0@pop.tiac.net> <19981220142525.D518@maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: <199812202352.SAA04199@hal.plmsc.psu.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:52:43 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Boris Veytsman Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19981220142525.D518@maths.tcd.ie> (message from Timothy Murphy on Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:25:25 +0000) > Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:25:25 +0000 > From: Timothy Murphy > > On Thu, Dec 17, 1998 at 03:03:43PM -0500, Y&Y, Inc. wrote: > > > > > Not sure I get it. The Acrobat Reader is free. > > And on platforms that support printers you can print > > from Acrobat Reader to anything that comes with a > > working printer driver. > > Apologies. > I don't live in the Happy, Happy Micro$oft world. > We poor Linux-ers sometimes forget how our lucky brethren live. Timothy, I do not get you. There are several options for viewing and printing PDF files on Linux: Adobe Acrobat for Linux, xpdf. ghostscript newer than 5.0... My experience shows that printing pdf on Unix is usually simpler than on Microsoft platforms. The Windows drivers are like everything made by Microsoft or for Microsoft: buggy, sleazy and unreliable. -- Good luck -Boris http://www.plmsc.psu.edu/~boris/ 21-Dec-1998 17:27:46-GMT,2679;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17212 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:26:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA28814; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:52:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414258 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:52:23 +0100 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28795 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:52:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from MAUI (maui.ai.mit.edu [128.52.37.105]) by life.ai.mit.edu (8.9.1/AI2.7/ai.master.life:2.2) with SMTP id LAA06868; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:52:09 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <4.1.19981220114255.00a3d5e0@pop.tiac.net> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812201444.IAA03397@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981221114903.0245b300@tiac.net> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:51:50 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13950.28971.492393.890205@fell.open.ac.uk> At 17:07 1998-12-21 +0100, Chris Rowley wrote: >> Just as we had then to struggle with buggy PS clone interpreters >I recall having to purchase non-Adobe interpreters becuase of memory >leaks etc in the Adobe version ... but perhaps that predates your memories? Yes, I didn't run into that problem. Adobe interpreters are, of course, not bug free, but compared to the junk clones I have seen (the recent HP clone in the LaserJet 4000 being a notable exception), they are amazing. One of the few real bugs that irritated me in Adobe PS level I interpreters was the need for base and accent to be in the encoding when using a composite character constructed using SEAC. The clones did not have that bug. Regards, Berthold. Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com 21-Dec-1998 17:34:19-GMT,8344;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17444 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:34:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA28008; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:43:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414248 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:43:21 +0100 Received: from ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27804 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:41:04 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:10:24 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:07:18 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:07:04 +0100 X400-Received: by mta open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:07:01 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN2 in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:07:48 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<13950.28971.492393.890205@fell.] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: portable ... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: , <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de>, <199812201444.IAA03397@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13950.28971.492393.890205@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:07:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981220114255.00a3d5e0@pop.tiac.net> Y&Y, Inc. wrote -- > Just as we had then to struggle with buggy PS clone interpreters I recall having to purchase non-Adobe interpreters becuase of memory leaks etc in the Adobe version ... but perhaps that predates your memor= ies? chris =20 so we > now have a bit of a struggle working around bugs in PDF Readers - > including unfortunately the ones from Adobe. But it can be done. >=20 > >The only reliable ``fix'' for Adobe PDF is to convert > >it to an Adobe PostScript language file and, if necessary (which it > >frequently is), forcefully by manual editting dumb it down to langua= ge > >level 1. Nothing else works reliably. >=20 > Really? Before we had PDF we had endless threads on how useless PS i= s > because so many clone PS interpreters fail... >=20 > >PDF fails more frequently than > >anything else---most printers fail if given a PDF directly. >=20 > Of course, why would you feed PDF to a printer? (OK, lets ignore PS 3= ). > And I find printing from HTML browsers completely unreliable, while > printing from Acrobat Reader works with properly prepared PDF. >=20 > >As far as I can tell the _only_ reason for PDF is to protect Adobe's= fonts for Adobe. >=20 > What? How does it do that? It is almost as easy to steal fonts from= PDF than from PDF. > PDF is an output format that removes the > programmatic aspects of PS (which lead to problems with clone PS inte= rpreters) > the result is smaller and easier to interrpret (does not require a fu= ll PS interpreter). >=20 > >Ghostview does not handle PDF files as input in any version that I a= m > >aware of. >=20 > While I never us it, I understand recent versions do. >=20 > >PDF files are frequently encrypted which causes problems by > >cryptography being illegal to export from several countries as milit= ary > >munitions and illegal to import into others without special permissi= ons > >(e.g. France, Russia and the Peoples' Reuplic of China). >=20 > What? The compression schemes are described in detail so you > can undo them. You can password protect the files, but with a low gr= ade > scheme that any government has the resources to break. I have never > heard of such complaints. (Some unethical types on the net > supply code to break PDF encryption - or provide an online service > to do it for you - so you can print and alter PDF files that the auth= or > did not want you to print, alter or plagerize). >=20 > >time. And, there are quite a few printers still in active use which= > >are only Adobe PostScript language level 1. These printers are not > >going to be withdrawn from service just to make it convenient for yo= u, > >Adobe or any one else. >=20 > We are talking about PDF here, and while you can certainly generate P= DF from > PS level II code, that does not mean you need a PS level II printer t= o print it - at all! > The Acrobat Reader can print to anything that has a working printer d= river. >=20 > >I _am quite willing to accept_ a stage of conversion from TeX DVI to= > >Adobe PostScript language files. Until there are converters as > >competent as dvips and dvipsk are for converting DVI to Adobe PostSc= ript > >language files for converting Adobe PDF to Adobe PostScript level 1 > >language files, I have no interest in a LaTeX that produces Adobe PD= F > >instead of DVI. >=20 > This is a separate issue. It is in fact not clear that TeX -> PDF is= now or > will be a viable alternative to TeX -> DVI. But none of the issues y= ou > or Hans have raised show anything but your lack of knowledge about Ac= robat - > not anything to do with why PDF may or may not be a good target langu= age. >=20 > >|Maybe tune in to comp.text.pdf? >=20 > > There does not seem to be much there: >=20 > Fix your news reader or news server than. Although, it is definitely= not as > swamped with the volume of comp.text.tex No long flame wars :-) >=20 > >|Maybe read http://www.YandY.com/download/pdf_from.pdf >=20 > > If you want this to be read, then put it up as an > > Adobe PostScript level 1 language file so that it > > generally can be read. >=20 > Absolutely not. PS is a poor distribution format. And if you are in= terested > in Acrobat PDF, the least you can do is install the free Acrobat Read= er. >=20 > > Furthermore, to demonstrate the quality of that file: >=20 > ># xpdf pdf_from.pdf > >xpdf version 0.7a > >Copyright =A9 1996-1998 Derek B. Noonburg > >Error (0): PDF file is damaged - attempting to reconstruct xref tabl= e... > >Error: Top-level pages object is wrong type (null) > >Error: Couldn't read page catalog > ># pdf2ps pdf_from.pdf pdf_from.ps > >Error: /invalidaccess in --fileposition-- >=20 > (1) Transfer the file in binary more, not ASCII! > (2) Get a decent PDF reader. >=20 > >|Maybe check out Donald Story's `AcroTeX' web page: > >|http://www.math.uakron.edu/~dpstory/ >=20 > > I tried it. I fail to see how it helps. I did see that it = also > > has the same problems with respect to Adobe PDF that many WW= W sites > > have with respect to html---you have to have ``bleeding'' ed= ge > > software in order to use the material. Which is without > > consideration of the users' needs, wants, wishes or capaciti= es. >=20 > > For example, general use WWW pages should be written to be u= sable > > by Lynx and Mosaic web browsers. If nothing else, then prov= ide > > a text only button and a separate set of pages. If not, the= n, > > for example, provide alt=3D tags for images. >=20 > I'll have to ask Donald to rewrite his web site in plain ASCII (or EB= CDIC?) >=20 > Regards, Berthold. >=20 >=20 > Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com >=20 21-Dec-1998 18:12:38-GMT,2353;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18636 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:12:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA03119; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:42:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414283 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:42:48 +0100 Received: from dcdrjh.fnal.gov (dcdrjh.fnal.gov [131.225.103.66]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03112 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:42:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (from herber@localhost) by dcdrjh.fnal.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA05878 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:42:45 -0600 (CST) References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Message-ID: <199812211742.LAA05878@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:42:45 -0600 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Randolph J. Herber" Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L The large binary file is a mistake; I had not intended to sent that portion (at least) to the mailing list. I failed to recheck the message's addressing before sending the message, as I ought to have done. I apologize for the mistake and authorize the list manager to delete the binary text portion (prefered) or the entire message (as necessary). Randolph J. Herber, herber@dcdrjh.fnal.gov, +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F, Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500, USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product, trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.) 21-Dec-1998 19:48:15-GMT,3008;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA21290 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:48:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA08259; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:11:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414326 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:11:53 +0100 Received: from ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08251 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:11:50 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:06:34 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:06:24 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:06:11 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:06:26 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<13950.39799.140230.241409@fell.] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: pdf and p... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: <13943.35834.346967.222803@srahtz>, , , , <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de>, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13950.39799.140230.241409@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:06:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981219084609.00a8fc60@pop.tiac.net> Y&Y Inc. wrote -- > > It would be nice if TeX supported color the same way it does fonts also. I assume you here mean "plain colored text". In which case i know what you mean and agree. If you mean more general use of colour: eg continuous shading, etc etc, then I need to know more about the analogy with fonts and how TeX itself could "support" such things. chris 21-Dec-1998 20:23:05-GMT,7933;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA22041 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:23:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA09649; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:39:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414333 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:39:46 +0100 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09626 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:39:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from MAUI (maui.ai.mit.edu [128.52.37.105]) by life.ai.mit.edu (8.9.1/AI2.7/ai.master.life:2.2) with SMTP id NAA12392; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:44:53 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> <199812151808.MAA19057@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981221132351.00ad4260@tiac.net> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:44:38 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199812211738.LAA05866@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> At 11:38 1998-12-21 -0600, Randolph J. Herber wrote: Got your gzipped file. It is identical to the one on the web server. So its your PDF reading application that is at fault. >When the Adobe PDF files are converted to Adobe PostScript language, >the resultant files frequently contain among the code that is executable >Adobe PostScript level 2 language elements. These elements will not >execute on purely Adobe PostScript level 1 printers. I do not know >why this is true; but, I have observed that it happens. But that is then a problem of the printer driver not working correctly. In Acrobat Reader, I select to print to whatever device and the conversion happens in the printer driver. Most PS printer drivers have an option to use only PS level I. This has nothing to do with PDF or Acrobat per se. >But, PDF viewers that can handle almost all the Adobe PDF available from >the open WWW were not and are not generally freely publically available. >Even the Adobe Acrobat Reader requires a click-on license. And this is a problem? >And, what I was talking about is that most of the WWW browsers I have seen >are set up assuming that Adobe PDF files can be sent directly to a printer >for printing. That is an incorrect assumption both from my experience and I have never seen this. The WWW browser doesn't get into the act in any case. It launches your PDF viewer (Acrobat Reader for example) and printing is then handled by the PDF viewer. >from my understanding of your previous comments. Adobe PDF files require >a conversion from Adobe PDF format to Adobe PostScript language format >before they can be printed. Only if your printer is a PS printer. Otherwise it gets converted to something else. >The reason for this requirement is that the printers do not understand the Adobe PDF format. >The reason for the false assumption on the part of the people setting up the WWW browsers, >including the mime types and mailcap files, is that, like Adobe PostScript language, >Adobe PDF are print files (which we both seem to understand they are not). >Yes, supposedly, Adobe AcroBat Reader is capable of doing this conversion. >Quite a few late Adobe PostScript level 1 language printers in fact have >the capacity to do the critical level 2 commands or at least ignore them. >A printer like the Apple LaserWriter gives errors on code that such >printers find to be acceptable. Is your printer one of these printers? I ran an Apple Laser Writer II NX until recently. It's as old as the hills. No problems printing PDF (except running out of memory on large high resolution graphics and taking forever). Then I ran an ancient QMS (level I, no level II extensions), again no problems. >generated partial fonts. dvips when working from Type 1 or TrueType >fonts generally has included the fonts into the file or page prologues >intact, which therefore permits their ready extraction with a text editor. >These extracted fonts readily can be used with many word processing system, >particularly since the font metric files generally are available and >reasonable approximate font metric files can be generated from the fonts. >The form of the fonts in an Adobe PDF do not lend themselves to such >ready inappropriate (illegal in many cases) reuse. Well, (1) dvips started supporting partial font downloading as soon as people actuallly started using Type 1 fonts more seriously and found out what a pain it is to package all those fonts in the PS file (which is why DVIPSONE was designed in 1990 specifically for partial font downloading). And (2) Acrobat started off also including complete fonts. Complaints from foundries in particular persuaded Adobe to change this. So both have switched from including complete fonts to not including them. I am not sure one can read any evil intention into either one. In fact, since Adobe's default is to include complete fonts if you use 35% or more of the characters means that the main text fonts in most PDF files are included in toto. A misfeature in my opinion. >|? Isn't the licensing information on Acrobat Reader enough ? >I have to extract that license from the Adobe Acrobat Reader materials >(possibly from the executable itself), present the informatio to our >legal department and obtain the legal departments approval before I >am permitted to accept the Adobe license by, in this case, clicking >on the ``Accept'' button. Isn't that simple enough to understand--- >I do not yet have such an approval. Wow! I am sure glad I don't work there! >From your GS output I gather it actually works on pages 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and then it runs into trouble right at the end. I believe this is in the interpretation of the images (which originally where in GIF format). I do recollect some errors in GS having to do with padding of bytes in between lines. You may want to try a more recent version or report this bug. >Page 6 >Error: /rangecheck in --get-- >Operand stack: > 1 --dict:9/9-- --dict:9/9-- --dict:10/13-- --nostringval-- >--nostringval-- --nostringval-- 0 >Execution stack: > %interp_exit .runexec2 --nostringval-- --nostringval-- > --nostringval-- 2 %stopped_push --nostringval-- 2 3 > %oparray_pop --nostringval-- --nostringval-- false 1 > %stopped_push 1 3 %oparray_pop 1 3 %oparray_pop > --nostringval-- 7 1 10 --nostringval-- > %for_pos_int_continue --nostringval-- --nostringval-- > --nostringval-- 0 --nostringval-- %array_continue > --nostringval-- false 1 %stopped_push --nostringval-- > %loop_continue --nostringval-- --nostringval-- > --nostringval-- --nostringval-- --nostringval-- > --nostringval-- --nostringval-- 5 9 %oparray_pop >Dictionary stack: > --dict:770/809-- --dict:0/20-- --dict:47/200-- --dict:47/200-- >--dict:120/127-- --dict:111/152-- --dict:10/10-- --dict:1/2-- >--dict:16/20-- >Current allocation mode is local >GS<1>quit Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com 21-Dec-1998 20:51:45-GMT,2569;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA22655 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:51:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA11618; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:18:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414351 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:18:16 +0100 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11608 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:18:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from MAUI (maui.ai.mit.edu [128.52.37.105]) by life.ai.mit.edu (8.9.1/AI2.7/ai.master.life:2.2) with SMTP id PAA16629 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:18:05 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <4.1.19981219084609.00a8fc60@pop.tiac.net> <13943.35834.346967.222803@srahtz> <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19981221151631.00acad40@tiac.net> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: pdf and ps portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13950.39799.140230.241409@fell.open.ac.uk> At 20:06 1998-12-21 +0100, Chris Rowley wrote: >> It would be nice if TeX supported color the same way it does fonts also. >I assume you here mean "plain colored text". In which case i know what you >mean and agree. Yes, that is what I meant. For some other color issues TeX is the wrong tool IMHO. Of course, you can make it do something, but why torture it when there are other tools already for trapping etc. Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com 22-Dec-1998 13:53:41-GMT,2492;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26201 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 06:53:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA11038; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:20:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414158 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:20:40 +0100 Received: from mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11028 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:20:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from aixterm7.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (x33@aixterm7.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.47]) by mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA61708 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:20:40 +0100 Received: (from x33@localhost) by aixterm7.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id OAA71398; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:20:39 +0100 (CET) X-Sender: x33@aixterm7.urz.uni-heidelberg.de MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:20:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Joachim Lammarsch Subject: Re: That dear VMS -- LATEX-L archive To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13897.64364.727892.793475@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Frank Mittelbach wrote: > ... > they are achieved somewhere but i don't know where and how. anway i > will send you all messages on this topic (i will not send them to this > list i only replied here so that not everybody else is doing the same) The listserv itsself has an archive. Send a mail to listserv@urz.uni-heidelberg.de with the following text index latex-l to get in index or with get latex-l.logyymm (yy=year, mm=month) to get a file. > cheers > frank Joachim 22-Dec-1998 20:16:49-GMT,1944;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04830 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:16:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA13125; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:50:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414555 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:50:58 +0100 Received: from chapar.ipm.ac.ir (root@Chapar.ipm.ac.ir [194.225.70.90]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13087 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:50:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from ROSE.IPM.AC.IR (vax.ipm.ac.ir [194.225.70.70]) by chapar.ipm.ac.ir (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10066 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:19:16 +0330 Received: by ROSE.IPM.AC.IR (MX V4.1 VAX) id 89; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:19:23 +0330 Message-ID: <009D1189.F8FA06A0.89@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:19:22 +0330 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Roozbeh Subject: ctt-digest To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Sorry for being off-topic: I have found that the ctt-digest list is off. Anyone have any time for livening something like that? I can't do this kind of thing, since Iran's line is too narrow, so usenet news is luxury for us. (You can understand that I need the ctt-digest because of the above fact. I am one of few ones who want to read comp.text.tex, but can't.) --Roozbeh 22-Dec-1998 21:20:51-GMT,2887;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06446 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:20:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17212; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:05:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414594 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:05:27 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17203 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:05:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.75] (sl91.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.117]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27429 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:05:23 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:05:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: ctt-digest To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <009D1189.F8FA06A0.89@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> At 23:19 +0330 1998/12/22, Roozbeh wrote: >Sorry for being off-topic: >I have found that the ctt-digest list is off. Anyone have any time for >livening something like that? I can't do this kind of thing, since >Iran's line is too narrow, so usenet news is luxury for us. (You >can understand that I need the ctt-digest because of the above fact. I am >one of few ones who want to read comp.text.tex, but can't.) Sorry for being off-topic, too, I hope it does not happen on this list again which sooo closely follows the topic. :-) I don't know what ctt-digest is, but I think that it might be possible to read Usenet news groups via WWW-searches such as DejaNews , even if the local news-server does not have a group or the article has expired on it. Local news groups are normally only distributed locally (so German news groups are usually not distributed in Sweden or the US or vice versa), and "alt" newsgroups are often left out for lack of hard-disk space or contents. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 23-Dec-1998 10:51:01-GMT,2559;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22923 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 03:50:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA15589; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:29:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413854 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:29:23 +0100 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA15575 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:29:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk (cl.cam.ac.uk) [128.232.1.34] (rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zslXe-0008LN-00; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:29:22 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:29:21 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: ctt-digest To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:19:22 +0330." <009D1189.F8FA06A0.89@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> > Sorry for being off-topic: hah! as if that was a criterion for this list ;-) > I have found that the ctt-digest list is off. Anyone have any time for > livening something like that? yes, both ctt-digest and info-tex have died: a sad tale, but there we are. the uni-heidelberg server runs an info-tex (with different semantics, iirc, from the old shsu one); perhaps they can be persuaded to run the digest too. alternatively, the tug box might manage it. i'll ask around. > I can't do this kind of thing, since > Iran's line is too narrow, so usenet news is luxury for us. (You > can understand that I need the ctt-digest because of the above fact. I am > one of few ones who want to read comp.text.tex, but can't.) actually, you'ld save in bits transferred if you set up a server and took a newsfeed of comp.text.tex on its own. (save, that is, unless you're actually the *only* person who wants to read c.t.t.) robin 23-Dec-1998 13:43:31-GMT,4110;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA25709 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 06:43:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA26283; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:17:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 413919 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:17:46 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26270 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:17:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.51] (sl67.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.93]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21511 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:17:42 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:18:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: ctt-digest To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <009D1189.F8FA06A0.89@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> At 23:19 +0330 1998/12/22, Roozbeh wrote: >I am one of few ones who want to read comp.text.tex, but can't. Actually, most Internet services can be reached via email only. I repost below the information on how to get a how-to-do-it document: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ How to Access Internet Services by E-mail ----------------------------------------- If you don't have direct access to the Internet through your BBS or online service, you're not alone. Many of the world's countries with Internet connections have only e-mail access to this world-wide network of networks. But if you think that sounds limiting, read on. You can access almost any Internet resource using e-mail. Maybe you've heard of FTP, Gopher, Archie, Veronica, Finger, Usenet, Whois, Netfind, WAIS, and the World-Wide Web but thought they were out of your reach because you don't have a direct connection. Not so! You can use simple e-mail commands to do all of this and much more on the Internet. And even if you do have full Internet access, using e-mail services can save you time and money. If you can send a note to an Internet address, you're in the game. I encourage you to read this entire document first and then go back and try out the techniques that are covered. This way, you will gain a broader perspective of the information resources that are available, an introduction to the tools you can work with, and the best methods for finding the information you want. ... Finding the Latest Version -------------------------- This document is now available from several automated mail servers. To get the latest edition, send e-mail to one of the addresses below. To: mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu (for US, Canada & South America) Enter only this line in the BODY of the note: send usenet/news.answers/internet-services/access-via-email To: mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk (for Europe, Asia, etc.) Enter only this line in the BODY of the note: send lis-iis e-access-inet.txt You can also get the file by anonymous FTP at one of these sites: Site: rtfm.mit.edu get pub/usenet/news.answers/internet-services/access-via-email Site: ftp.mailbase.ac.uk get pub/lists/lis-iis/files/e-access-inet.txt Or on the Web in HTML format at: http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/internet-services/access-via- email/faq.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23-Dec-1998 21:01:10-GMT,2631;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05269 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:01:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA18641; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:31:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414130 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:31:51 +0100 Received: from ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA18631 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:31:42 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:31:21 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:30:53 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:30:38 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:30:56 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<13953.21174.504246.69550@fell.o] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: portable ... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: , , <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk>, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13953.21174.504246.69550@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:30:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13943.54045.536409.797051@srahtz> sebastian > now i ****promise**** not rise to any more baiting until next year > You can't fool us! How was the beach?? chris 4-Jan-1999 10:24:07-GMT,2464;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA25966 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 03:23:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA20741; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:02:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414228 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:02:04 +0100 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20725 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:02:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id JAA14966; hop 0; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:53:09 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:01:14 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <13938.39518.68424.927988@fell.open.ac.uk> <13953.21174.504246.69550@fell.open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13967.42746.989528.87601@srahtz> Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 17:20:58 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: portable LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <13953.21174.504246.69550@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > sebastian > > > now i ****promise**** not rise to any more baiting until next year > > > > You can't fool us! How was the beach?? > i can. just try me. damned hot. those fresh coconuts just get emptied in no time. sebastian 5-Jan-1999 15:16:02-GMT,4980;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00936 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:15:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA16376; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:51:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414289 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:51:13 +0100 Received: from math.ams.org (math.ams.org [130.44.210.14]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA16364 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:51:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from sun06.ams.org by math.ams.org via smtpd (for relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) with SMTP; 5 Jan 1999 14:50:56 UT Received: from sun06.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F5300C01D8V8U@sun06.ams.org> for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:50:55 -0500 (EST) MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Lines: 70 References: <199812141041.LAA13591@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Message-ID: <199901051451.PAA16364@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:50:55 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Comments: Resent-From: mjd@ams.org Comments: Originally-From: Michael John Downes From: "Michael J. Downes" Subject: Re: Layout parameters in LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Thierry Bouche's message of Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:41:00 +0100 Thierry Bouche writes: > Well, when i simply gently ask tex to do what seems the minimal > requirements of quality typography by setting the parameters to \pm > the values above, it appears that it can't do its job anymore, it > stretchs infinitely my tiny vertical glue to find a page break, it > removes up to 2 lines from a page because of widow/broken control, > etc. For homogeneous text like in a novel, snapping to a grid may be considered quality typography. For material with lots of odd-sized objects such as equations or smaller-typesize quotes or section heads, snapping to a grid can easily lead to vertical spacing that looks worse than the usual TeX approach. Let L = line spacing, e = smallest unit of space that forces use of an extra grid line, then what do you think this sequence looks like? text equation (height L+e) text equation (height L) text equation (height L+e) That's right, the visible whitespace around the equations fluctuates up and down by almost .5L in the same page. For a typical L of 12pt this is 6pt. So grid-snapping is not "quality typography" for such material. (Since the material that I usually work with has lots of displayed equations and other odd-sized elements, I have never had sufficient reason to work on a grid-based system of vertical spacing.) But if you assume that all lines are normal height and all vertical spaces are integral multiples of baselineskip, a grid-based system is easy. However ... if you also want automatic widow/orphan suppression *and* flush-bottom columns then you are talking about mutually conflicting constraints which are hard for any system, not just LaTeX. Most publishers just have human beings fixing the more difficult page breaks "by hand". Otherwise you need to plug in a different LaTeX output routine that holds more of the pages in memory while seeking page breaking solutions. The current one as you probably know ships out each page as soon as a locally optimum page break is found. Historically there has not been much leeway to work on such output routines because two or three complex pages (plus, perhaps, some pending figures) can use up 256K of main memory and there is no way to have the output routine check the current memory usage to decide if there is enough room to consider more material. Lacking such a check, an output routine that considers two pages or four pages at a time instead of one is much more likely to create problems by simply failing in the middle of a job with a fatal TeX out-of-memory error and leaving an incomplete .dvi file. If you want to handle floating objects like footnotes, figures, tables, the algorithm can easily become infinitely complicated. I think it would be interesting to try to handle four pages at a time (two two-page spreads; try to optimize the first one with the ability to borrow lines from the second one). But I don't think I would want to go beyond that. Michael Downes 5-Jan-1999 16:00:41-GMT,3622;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01965 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:00:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA18903; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:33:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414321 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:33:36 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18893 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:33:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-1.tiac.net (mail-out-1.tiac.net [199.0.65.12]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08106 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:33:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from DENALI (p15.tc10.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.77.80]) by mail-out-1.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11705 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:32:34 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 References: <199812141041.LAA13591@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19990105102755.033c9900@pop.tiac.net> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Y&Y, Inc." Subject: Re: Layout parameters in LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199901051451.PAA16364@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> At 09:50 AM 99/01/05 , Michael J. Downes wrote: >Historically there has not been much leeway to work on such output >routines because two or three complex pages (plus, perhaps, some >pending figures) can use up 256K of main memory and there is no way to >have the output routine check the current memory usage to decide if >there is enough room to consider more material. Lacking such a check, >an output routine that considers two pages or four pages at a time >instead of one is much more likely to create problems by simply >failing in the middle of a job with a fatal TeX out-of-memory error >and leaving an incomplete .dvi file. This particular problem goes away with TeX's that have dynamic memory allocation. >If you want to handle floating objects like footnotes, figures, >tables, the algorithm can easily become infinitely complicated. >I think it would be interesting to try to handle four pages at a time >(two two-page spreads; try to optimize the first one with the ability >to borrow lines from the second one). But I don't think I would want >to go beyond that. Regards, Berthold. By the way Given the rapid increase in computer speed and memory, we will be able to do things for which TeX is even less well suited than what it is being used for now! The dark side of rapid hardware progress is that it makes evolutionary, incremental kludging easier than starting over. Witness MS bloatware. Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:support@YandY.com 5-Jan-1999 21:54:03-GMT,2272;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10210 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:53:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA07783; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:29:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414464 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:29:33 +0100 Received: from ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.232.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07762 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:29:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16177 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:29:31 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id WAA18537 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:27:19 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199901052127.WAA18537@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:27:19 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Re: Layout parameters in LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199901051901.TAA19392@nag.co.uk> from David Carlisle at "Jan 5, 99 07:01:51 pm" > \def\x{aaaa aaaa aaaa aaaa aaaa aaaa aaaa } > > \x\x\x\x\x\x I wonder whether we really have the same definition for "reasonnable" litterature... ;-) Happy New year! -- Thierry Bouche. ----- thierry.bouche@ujf-grenoble.fr http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~bouche/ 5-Jan-1999 19:20:16-GMT,2654;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06551 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:20:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA00701; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:02:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414438 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:02:28 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00692 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:02:26 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id TAA19392; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:01:51 GMT References: <199812141041.LAA13591@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199901051451.PAA16364@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> <199901051739.SAA16408@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Message-ID: <199901051901.TAA19392@nag.co.uk> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:01:51 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: Layout parameters in LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199901051739.SAA16408@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> (message from Thierry Bouche on Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:39:57 +0100) > What is very bad is TeX's behaviour of linespacing the lines with > overhanging material (like integrals, badly formatted inline > fractions...) If you want to keep lines on the grid even in the presence of such stuff you can ask tex to work a bit harder, eg: \everymath{% \global\setbox1\hbox\bgroup\everymath{}$\aftergroup\foo} \def\foo{\egroup$\smash{\box1}} \def\x{aaaa aaaa aaaa aaaa aaaa aaaa aaaa } \x\x\x\x\x\x ${\displaystyle{a\over b}\over {c \over d}}\over {\displaystyle{a\over b}\over {c \over d}}$ \x\x\x\x\x\x\x \bye You could make this a bit smarter, eg to snap the size of the box to an integral number of baselineskips (rather than to zero as here) and to unbox smaller examples to re-allow linebreaking, and to worry about mathsurround etc... Although as Michael said, it's not clear whether if you have a lot of such things you are ever going to get it to fit the grid in a reasonable way. David 6-Jan-1999 14:15:20-GMT,5909;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29378 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:15:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA15066; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:47:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 414460 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:47:55 +0100 Received: from math.ams.org (math.ams.org [130.44.210.14]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA15043 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:47:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from sun06.ams.org by math.ams.org via smtpd (for relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) with SMTP; 6 Jan 1999 13:47:36 UT Received: from sun06.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F55007014Z8XX@sun06.ams.org> for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:47:33 -0500 (EST) MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 Lines: 71 References: <199812141041.LAA13591@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199901051451.PAA16364@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> <199901051739.SAA16408@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id OAA15053 Message-ID: <199901061347.OAA15043@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:47:33 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Comments: Resent-From: mjd@ams.org Comments: Originally-From: Michael John Downes From: "Michael J. Downes" Subject: Re: Layout parameters in LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Thierry Bouche's message of Tue, 05 Jan 1999 18:39:57 +0100 Thierry Bouche writes: > » For homogeneous text like in a novel, snapping to a grid may be > » considered quality typography. For material with lots of odd-sized > » objects such as equations or smaller-typesize quotes or section heads, > » snapping to a grid can easily lead to vertical spacing that looks > » worse than the usual TeX approach. > > I don't agree. It is very easy to have section heading withs 1.5 > \baselineskip above, and .5 below, e.g. If you're using a multicolumn > layout, facing lines that disagree are horrible _and_ disturbing. I'm not sure I can agree. It seems that you are describing a merely aesthetic view of the page from a distance, not something that interferes with active reading (where you don't *want* to pay attention to any columns other than the current column). And there is more trouble unless you impose a restriction that section titles cannot be more than one line long. Suppose your text is 10pt with 13pt linespacing and suppose your section title font is 12pt. In order to keep to the grid with a two-line section title you are required to use 13pt or 26pt linespacing for the title. Although I suppose the natural answer is that your section heading macro must count the lines and compute the amount of space needed to get back to the grid (probably requires adjusting the space above the title to match). There is still more trouble when at the top of the left column you have two lines of text followed by a section title, and in the right column you have a section title at the very top. Now your .5 baselineskip is quite likely to miss the grid and if you modify the space to reach the grid you have two section titles almost side-by-side with noticeably different vertical spacing. Similar scenarios occur if the designer wants to have extra .5 space before/after a numbered list: what if you have two lists, one beginning on page 4 and ending on page 5, the other entirely on page 5. Then snapping to a grid forces the two lists to have respectively 1.0 and 0.5 linespacing. > What is very bad is TeX's behaviour of linespacing the lines with > overhanging material (like integrals, badly formatted inline > fractions...). I believe to be the responsability of the editors to > "flatten" inline formulas, and display others. Yes and no. Simple forcing to a grid is not the answer. What we need for material with a lot of mathematics is a kind of skyline fitting approach for deciding when lines need extra space. The system used by the AMS before the switch to TeX always set text lines on the grid and our production staff spent many hours fixing adjacent lines where a second-order subscript in the first line collided with a second-order superscript or accented capital letter in the second line, and things like that. > Also, It seems so obvious that double pages are the unit of book > composition that it looks weird to me that TeX simply ignores > that. I think it is only a consequence of the comparatively severe memory constraints that were prevalent in the early days of TeX's development. > Imho, this should be handled at TeX's level rather than > LaTeX's. I'm not sure I understand you here. Yes, it would be good for TeX to provide more access to certain parts of the page makeup process; but I still think you're going to want to write custom output routines at the macro package level. Frank Mittelbach's multicol package effectively solves the two-page spread problem if you adapt it for output routine use ... except that floating figures and footnotes are still very difficult to integrate with the basic layout strategy. 28-Jan-1999 16:36:11-GMT,3816;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA20040 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:36:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA04639; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:17:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 420241 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:17:26 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04632 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:17:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15411 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:17:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3) id LAA17312 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:17:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199901281617.LAA17312@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:17:11 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: preamble declarations wanted To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Dear Friends -- Several ideas for LaTeX3 are listed below. Inasmuch as I am not familiar with TeX, the Program, I do not know what is realistic. 1. "\noblankpars": In using a program to translate another markup to LaTeX, if one wants to have a reasonable level of human readability in the output, it would be desirable to be able to turn off the blank line as a new-paragraph command and instead have a core latex command "\strictpar" (not in any current package?) that would leave blank spaces and newlines nearly completely interchangeable, as is the case, for example, with many SGML declarations. This feature would be enabled with a preamble declaration such as "\noblankpars". Otherwise, auto-generated lines (under difficult circumstances) could be thousands of characters in length. Inasmuch as I believe that the blank line as a new-paragraph command under LaTeX is a pass-through to "TeX", I do not know whether this could be done. 2. "\commandend{;}": LaTeX practice such as "\LaTeX{} is great" does not always leave quite the right space after the first word. I would like to be able to use one of several characters such as ';' as a command name terminator in a document having in the preamble the declaration "\commandend{;}". 3. "\strictargoptsyntax": In auto-generating lists, a programmer either needs to check that the first character of item content is not '[' or else routinely generate "\item[{}]", filling in the braces when appropriate. There are other similar examples that lead me to suggest a preamble declaration "\strictargoptsyntax" which would have the syntatic effect thereafter that any command with a sequence of arguments and/or options of postive length must have no white space at all between the command name and the first arg/opt or between successive arg/opt's. Of course, it would still be ok to use something like: \newcommand[2]{ \proj }{ \mbox{\textbf{P}^{#1}} ( #2 ) } where the user is trusted to use "\proj" only in math-mode. -- Bill 28-Jan-1999 17:14:24-GMT,2756;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA21146 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:14:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA09875; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:02:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 420282 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:02:03 +0100 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09861 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:02:01 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id RAA17232; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:01:33 GMT References: <199901281617.LAA17312@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199901281701.RAA17232@nag.co.uk> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:01:33 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: preamble declarations wanted To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199901281617.LAA17312@hilbert.math.albany.edu> (hammond@CSC.ALBANY.EDU) > 1. "\noblankpars": This appears to be \def\par{}, since a blank line is \par. (But some commands may get surprised if you do that) > 2. "\commandend{;}": LaTeX practice such as > "\LaTeX{} is great" > does not always leave quite the right space after I do not understand this comment. If used outside math mode, then \foo{} xxx will always leave the same amount of space as would be produced if \foo was replaced by its definition. Why is that not `quite right'? In math mode, {} produces a mathord atom, but there the space in the input doesn't matter, so you can just do \foo xxx. > 3. "\strictargoptsyntax": that any command with a sequence of > arguments and/or options of postive length must have no white space at > all between the command name and the first arg/opt or between > successive arg/opt's. Why? Latex as in most other languages these days, white space between arguments is ignored. When is this ever not a desirable feature? Tex's handling of white space is often not desirable, but I have never thought this was bad. (In fact I put quite some effort in to making it be true in latex2e, rather than just almost true in 2.09) David 28-Jan-1999 18:44:36-GMT,3966;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA23694 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:44:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA17765; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:26:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 420316 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:26:08 +0100 Received: from math.ams.org (math.ams.org [130.44.210.14]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA17755 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:26:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from sun06.ams.org by math.ams.org via smtpd (for relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) with SMTP; 28 Jan 1999 18:26:03 UT Received: from sun06.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F6A005018JEK7@sun06.ams.org> for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:26:02 -0500 (EST) MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Lines: 49 References: <199901281617.LAA17312@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199901281826.TAA17755@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:26:02 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Comments: Resent-From: mjd@ams.org Comments: Originally-From: Michael John Downes From: "Michael J. Downes" Subject: Re: preamble declarations wanted To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: "William F. Hammond"'s message of Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:17:11 -0500 "William F. Hammond" writes: > 1. "\noblankpars": In using a program to translate another markup to > LaTeX, if one wants to have a reasonable level of human readability in ... > blank line as a new-paragraph command under LaTeX is a pass-through to > "TeX", I do not know whether this could be done. \catcode\endlinechar=10 > 2. "\commandend{;}": LaTeX practice such as > > "\LaTeX{} is great" > > does not always leave quite the right space after the first word. You are mistaken. It leaves a normal interword space. Unless you are talking about some macro that you have yourself defined without paying sufficient attention to spacefactor or something. Try looking at the LaTeX definition of \TeX (not the plain TeX definition, which is inferior). Or unless you are talking about math mode. In math mode the "{}" should certainly be omitted or it will tend to screw up the standard inter-symbol spacing. But your converter probably had better be aware of whether it is in math mode or not anyway, since (for example) you should be translating &ohat; to \^{o} in text but \hat{o} in math. If you really want a 100% consistent command terminator that you can use in all contexts I suggest \+: \def\+{} ... \LaTeX\+ is great ... That is only for commands that take no arguments. For commands whose first argument is a mandatory argument the { is a sufficient terminator; for commands whose first argument is optional (like \pagebreak or \\) you cannot put anything in there without screwing up the lookahead. For that I suggest defining your own variants that use mandatory arguments. > 3. "\strictargoptsyntax": In auto-generating lists, a programmer > either needs to check that the first character of item content is not > '[' or else routinely generate "\item[{}]", filling in the braces when > appropriate. \item{} will give you the automatic number and ignore any following "[" character. 22-Feb-1999 13:35:19-GMT,6349;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA11988 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 06:35:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12382; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:10:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 426374 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:10:55 +0100 Received: from mail.math.umu.se (root@abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12373 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:10:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by mail.math.umu.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07538 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:10:49 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id OAA12374 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:10:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Suggestion: Safe font commands To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L It occured to me some while back that there is a need for some kind of "safe" font selection commands---where "safe" is to be interpreted as with the safe file commands \InputIfFileExists etcetera---in LaTeX. Safe font commands would provide the ability to test if a font is available before actually trying to typeset anything in it, and thus also the ability to take some alternative action should the font not be available. I know that this is more complicated with fonts than it is with input files, since there is in general no way of testing if there is a TFM file for the font in question short of actually trying to load the font (and I don't think that can be used in general since it results in a visible error message if the result of the test is false). One can however check if there is a font definition file which defines the font in question, so that is what I suggest the safe font commands should do. One example of how to use them is to make a command that typesets some symbol if that symbol is available and which typesets some fake of it otherwise. Assuming the existence of a safe font command \UseTextSymbolIFE (IFE=IfFontExists) with the syntax \UseTextSymbolIFE{}{}{} which is like \UseTextSymbol{}{} if a font with encoding and the current family/series/shape exists, and like otherwise, one could do \DeclareRobustCommand\euro{% \UseTextSymbolIFE{TS1}{\texteuro}{EUR}% } to get a \euro command that gives something understandable regardless of whether it is typeset on a site with or without a TS1 encoded symbol font. Another example occurs if one needs to write temperatures---then one needs a text minus and a text degree symbol (using math here can cause lots of problems due to the change to Computer Modern that would be the result in many installations). Like the euro symbol, both are available in TS1, but if that is not available then we get into trouble. A simple way out would be to use the declarations \DeclareTextCommand{\textminus}{OT1}{% \UseTextSymbolIFE{TS1}{\textminus}{\textendash}% } \DeclareTextCommand{\textminus}{T1}{% \UseTextSymbolIFE{TS1}{\textminus}{\textendash}% } \DeclareTextCommand{\textdegree}{OT1}{% \UseTextSymbolIFE{TS1}{\textdegree}{\char23 }% } \DeclareTextCommand{\textdegree}{T1}{% \UseTextSymbolIFE{TS1}{\textdegree}{\char6 }% } which fake the text minus and degree using the current font's endash and ring accent if a font with the real thing is not available. The fakes could probably be improved, but it should be clear what they are supposed to denote. It seems to me that much of the code needed to implement these commands already exists in the LaTeX kernel, in particular in \define@newfont and \try@load@fontshape, so it should not have to be that much work implementing them. (It should reside in the kernel, since one place one might want to use these commands are in the definitions in an encoding definition file, and such files cannot load a package (which would have been the alternative place to define these commands) because the fontenc package loads such files during option processing.) One thing that probably would have to be introduced however is some way of controlling how many font substitution steps (here I mean the ones caused by the \DeclareFontSubstitution declaration, not the ones due to using the sub size function in the font shape declaration) should be tried before the test returns false. Clearly the font selection approach of allowing substitution of shape, series, _and_ family is not what one wants (well, perhaps in very extreme cases), and the best default behaviour is most likely to not do any substitutions at all, but in some cases a shape substitution, or even a shape and series substitution is acceptable. Therefore it would be an advantage if some user level interface to controlling this (perhaps as an optional argument to the safe font commands) is provided. Like with safe file commands, it seems reasonable to have both commands that select the font (like the \UseTextSymbolIFE above) if it is available and commands that do merely perform the test. In addition to the former probably saving some typing, they can also provide some amount of enhancement of the test: If there is a font definition for some font, but the font still isn't there (i.e., the system is "incorrectly" set up), these commands still have a chance to resort to the alternative, so that the typeset document can still be acceptable. Lars Hellström 28-Feb-1999 15:30:53-GMT,6904;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA27306 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:30:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA19535; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:06:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 426870 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:06:07 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19528 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:06:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (dialin375.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.75]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12979 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:06:03 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00589; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:51:09 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: Message-ID: <199902281451.PAA00589@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:51:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Suggestion: Safe font commands To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Lars, > It occured to me some while back that there is a need for some kind of > "safe" font selection commands---where "safe" is to be interpreted as with > the safe file commands \InputIfFileExists etcetera---in LaTeX. Safe font > commands would provide the ability to test if a font is available before > actually trying to typeset anything in it, and thus also the ability to > take some alternative action should the font not be available. LaTeX already does have this feature if you think about, part of the font selection mechanism was done explicitly to provide this > I know that this is more complicated with fonts than it is with input > files, since there is in general no way of testing if there is a TFM file > for the font in question short of actually trying to load the font (and I > don't think that can be used in general since it results in a visible error > message if the result of the test is false). One can however check if there > is a font definition file which defines the font in question, so that is > what I suggest the safe font commands should do. there exists a trick to test for a font by going into \batchmode and loading it and then checking if you got \nullfont as a result. the problem with this approach (if you don't use eTeX) is that a) there is no way to be sure which mode was in use (and \batchmode and friends are global operations) and b) it uses a fair amount of string pool etc. the latter is unfortunately also true if you try loading a normal file. > One example of how to use them is to make a command that typesets some > symbol if that symbol is available and which typesets some fake of it > otherwise. > [...] what's wrong with using the \DeclareTextSymbolDefault (and friends) for that purpose? that is exactly doing what you ask for as far as i can see. eg instead of > \DeclareRobustCommand\euro{% > \UseTextSymbolIFE{TS1}{\texteuro}{EUR}% > } you could \DeclareTextCommandDefault\texteuro{some definition} and then your statement: > > to get a \euro command that gives something understandable regardless of > whether it is typeset on a site with or without a TS1 encoded symbol font. holds as well. the catch is that this works best if TS1 is something that is either there (for all fonts) or not there at all. if it is there only for a small fraction of the fonts then the scheme using Defaults works less good than the proposed one. In particular it works not very well in the current situation where the TS1 is effectively ony correctly implemented in CM fonts while all the PS fonts contain huge gaps in the encodings that claim to be TS1. BUT ... in my opinion there error here lies in calling those font encodings TS1. My approach would be to distangle TS1 into several sub-encodings, eg TSA = Text Symbol Adobe basics TSX = Text Symbol Adobe basics + expert TS1 = Text Symbol as defined by Joerg with those encodings being TSA < TSX < TS1 and a change in textcomp to allow loading a subset This needs some further thoughts i'm sure but the current situation is not good where the problem appears only at the printing stage (and it does violate the invariant of the encoding, ie that 2 fonts in the same encoding produce the same glyph set) ----------------------------------------- I'm not saying that the proposed test commands for certain font characteristics aren't worth having, but i think they should not be used to handle something like \textdegree or \texteuro on a large scale. The amount of processing etc would be extremely high and i think this is fixing the symptoms of a (one of the) problem(s) with NFSS2 instead of providing the right basic interfaces for that problem. > It seems to me that much of the code needed to implement these commands > already exists in the LaTeX kernel, in particular in \define@newfont and > \try@load@fontshape, so it should not have to be that much work > implementing them. (It should reside in the kernel, since one place one > might want to use these commands are in the definitions in an encoding > definition file, and such files cannot load a package (which would have > been the alternative place to define these commands) because the fontenc > package loads such files during option processing.) code like this should eventually reside in the kernel but the kernel of LaTeX2e is frozen in this respect (and so are the interfaces for .fd and enc.def files for 2e), ie we do not intend to extend it incrementally so that we get to a situation where documents running 2e maintenance release X don't work on maintenance release X-1 In my opinion it is time to start thinking about the errors and problems with the NFSS2 approach and start experiments for developing NFSS3 but the first step for doing this should be via experimental packages that one has to load in the document somehow (ie either in a class file or in the preamble) frank 28-Feb-1999 15:52:56-GMT,3501;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA27689 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:52:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA20303; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:29:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 426905 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:29:19 +0100 Received: from ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.232.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA20296 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:29:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29496; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:29:17 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id QAA14126; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:35:08 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:35:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hi, Quite a long time ago, it was said that "the good way to implement MakeUppercase & friends would be to add a "case" axis to NFSS". I'd like to know if some activity has been undertaken to address this. It seems obvious to me that current nfss misses 2 axis, namely _width_ ("series" should be broken into weight and width, this bx as \bfdefault reflects TeX + CM history but has the notoriously bad consequence of seeing bold extended used inside text, not restricted to titling material) and _case_. The current situation as regards "series" is not too bad because the translation from markup to layout should be done in a class file, it is however bad that such classes must be dependant on the font system used. the "case" axis is really needed, and will be ever, since unicode ignores small caps, and multiple digits shapes. (It's a unicode flaw, imho, to enforce the capital/small letter distinction [two glyphs for the same charachter, no?] and reject small caps, lining/hanging/tabular figures). I think that adding the cases axis would be rather harmless, since people could simply ignore it (not the same for series vs weight&width) _and_ very usefull, since many have been temptated to turn some variant classes into families to have access to small caps in italic or slanted e.g.). Moreover, creating the few missing fonts with EC would be trivial, and maybe cleaner (accents for caps should be in an all-cap font rather than in TS1?), fontinst could similarly create a bunch more of VFs for supporting PS fonts as well. I'm thinking at least at: all caps (cap digits) c&sc (sc digits--almost inexistant in practice: cf Bell expert) all sc c&lc (lc or old style digits) all lc Thierry Bouche, Grenoble. 28-Feb-1999 20:36:56-GMT,2472;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA03154 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:36:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA02537; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:24:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 427038 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:24:46 +0100 Received: from chapar.ipm.ac.ir (root@Chapar.ipm.ac.ir [194.225.70.90]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02523 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:24:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from ROSE.IPM.AC.IR (vax.ipm.ac.ir [194.225.70.70]) by chapar.ipm.ac.ir (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09339 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:01:21 +0330 Received: by ROSE.IPM.AC.IR (MX V4.1 VAX) id 387; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:53:43 +0330 Message-ID: <009D46FE.086A6180.387@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:53:42 +0330 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Roozbeh Pournader Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Thierry Bouche suggests using anothe font for \MakeUpperCase. I should ask all you if you really like to stay on TeX, with all limits like the 256 fonts limit, the 256 glyphs per font limit, and all other things. Being a TeX programmer for about three years, I'm swithing to Omega, only because I don't like a bag of hacks for simple things like contextual analysis, or using many fonts. I'm very happy the Persian language can be typeset using 256 glyphs, but I am very sorry for those like Arabs who have those many ligatures they may want to turn on and off. Or Far Easterns with those many characters. LaTeX is not frozen, and will continue its growth, but who will write the Lambda that will help all of us live simpler and find better jobs? Do you know of the effort needed to port any single LaTeX standard package to a bidirectional environment for example? Roozbeh 28-Feb-1999 21:40:19-GMT,2386;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA04347 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:40:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA04724; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:23:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 427063 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:23:48 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04708 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:23:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail-out-3.tiac.net (mail-out-3.tiac.net [199.0.65.15]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12153 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:23:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) Received: from MAUI (p45.tc15.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.78.174]) by mail-out-3.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21891 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:23:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from support@YandY.com) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <4.1.19990228161736.018d8800@tiac.net> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:19:13 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Y&Y Help Line Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <009D46FE.086A6180.387@ROSE.IPM.AC.IR> At 23:53 1999-02-28 +0330, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: >I should ask all you if you really like to stay on TeX, with all limits like >the 256 fonts limit, That fortunately is not a real limit. Most implementations allow more. >the 256 glyphs per font limit, and all other such things. Regards, Berthold. -- Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com (M) 1-Mar-1999 18:12:08-GMT,5680;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA00715 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:11:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA10293; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:53:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 430004 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:53:43 +0100 Received: from mail.math.umu.se (root@abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10281 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:53:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by mail.math.umu.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00529 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:53:38 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id SAA10283 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:53:38 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Suggestion: Safe font commands To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199902281451.PAA00589@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Frank wrote: >Lars, >LaTeX already does have this feature if you think about, part of the font >selection mechanism was done explicitly to provide this > If you're simply saying that the information is stored somewhere then yes, that's exactly why I do not think it would be that difficult to implement. If you're saying that I can do something like my examples of \UseTextSymbolIFE without first having to define a dozen or so helper macros then you've lost me completely. [snip] > > One example of how to use them is to make a command that typesets some > > symbol if that symbol is available and which typesets some fake of it > > otherwise. > > [...] > >what's wrong with using the \DeclareTextSymbolDefault (and friends) for that >purpose? that is exactly doing what you ask for as far as i can see. > There is nothing wrong with using them, but my intention here was to give an example of how it could be used by an author (perhaps I should have written \newcommand instead of \DeclareRobustCommand to make my intentions clearer). >eg instead of > > > \DeclareRobustCommand\euro{% > > \UseTextSymbolIFE{TS1}{\texteuro}{EUR}% > > } > >you could > > \DeclareTextCommandDefault\texteuro{some definition} > >and then your statement: > > > > to get a \euro command that gives something understandable regardless of > > whether it is typeset on a site with or without a TS1 encoded symbol font. > >holds as well. > The question is of course what the "some definition" should be. If I take it to be EUR, it may well not the best thing available. If I take it to be \UseTextSymbol{TS1}{\texteuro}, then people who do not have a TS1 font available won't get it. By using the test in \UseTestSymbolIFE, I define a macro which can behave more intelligently. But it seems you acknowledged this: >the catch is that this works best if TS1 is something that is either there >(for all fonts) or not there at all. if it is there only for a small fraction >of the fonts then the scheme using Defaults works less good than the proposed >one. > [snip] >----------------------------------------- > >I'm not saying that the proposed test commands for certain font >characteristics aren't worth having, but i think they should not be used to >handle something like \textdegree or \texteuro on a large scale. The amount of >processing etc would be extremely high Would it? I cannot say I understand all the inner workings of NFSS, but I have the impression that there is one control sequence which can be tested to see if the font have been loaded or declared and one control sequence which can be tested to see if a font definition file has been loaded. This would mean that after the first time the availability of a specific font has been tested, additional tests can be completed in two ifs (either "yes, the font is available" or "no, the font has not been loaded, and no, it is not because I haven't loaded the font definition file yet, so therefore the font is not availavle"). That's nothing compared to what is done during a simple font change. >and i think this is fixing the symptoms >of a (one of the) problem(s) with NFSS2 instead of providing the right basic >interfaces for that problem. > [snip] > >In my opinion it is time to start thinking about the errors and problems with >the NFSS2 approach and start experiments for developing NFSS3 but the first >step for doing this should be via experimental packages that one has to load >in the document somehow (ie either in a class file or in the preamble) > >frank That's fine by me, I'm in no hurry in this matter. BTW, is the writing of such packages a privilege for the LaTeX3 project team, or may the public contribute as well? Lars Hellström 1-Mar-1999 23:33:09-GMT,2662;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA09819 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:33:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA00931; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:19:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 426674 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:19:31 +0100 Received: from blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (root@blaubaer.kn-bremen.de [194.94.232.249]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00918 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:19:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from dream.kn-bremen.de (uucp@localhost) by blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with UUCP id XAA13251 for latex-l@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:57:14 +0100 Received: by dream.kn-bremen.de (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 02 Mar 99 00:01:06 CET for latex-l@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de References: X-Mailer: Helldiver 1.08 (Waffle 1.65) Lines: 19 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:01:06 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Martin Schroeder Organization: The Dreaming Subject: Re: Suggestion: Safe font commands To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= writes: >Frank wrote: >>In my opinion it is time to start thinking about the errors and problems with >>the NFSS2 approach and start experiments for developing NFSS3 but the first >>step for doing this should be via experimental packages that one has to load >>in the document somehow (ie either in a class file or in the preamble) >That's fine by me, I'm in no hurry in this matter. BTW, is the writing of >such packages a privilege for the LaTeX3 project team, or may the public >contribute as well? You're welcome. They decide only what consitutes LaTeX3. Best regards Martin -- Martin Schr"oder, MS@Dream.KN-Bremen.DE http://home.pages.de/~martin.schroeder/ 2-Mar-1999 18:04:13-GMT,6074;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA04177 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:04:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA15684; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:38:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 428031 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:38:19 +0100 Received: from mail.math.umu.se (root@abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15667 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:38:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by mail.math.umu.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04386 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:38:13 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id SAA15669 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:38:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Thierry Bouche wrote: >It seems obvious to me that current nfss misses 2 axis, namely _width_ >("series" should be broken into weight and width, this bx as >\bfdefault reflects TeX + CM history but has the notoriously bad >consequence of seeing bold extended used inside text, not restricted >to titling material) and _case_. An alternative approach towards handling the \bfdefault problem you describe could be to make the expansion of \bfdefault depend on the family, so that CM has it to be bx and most other families have it to be b. (This is just a thought, I'm not sure it is a good one.) >the "case" axis is really needed, and will be ever, since unicode >ignores small caps, and multiple digits shapes. (It's a unicode flaw, >imho, to enforce the capital/small letter distinction [two glyphs for >the same charachter, no?] and reject small caps, >lining/hanging/tabular figures). I disagree to the parenthesis. The distinction between upper and lower case letter is usually prescribed by spelling rules etc., whereas the further distinction of small caps is not. The distinction of upper and lower case is thus more fundamental. >I think that adding the cases axis would be rather harmless, since >people could simply ignore it (not the same for series vs >weight&width) _and_ very usefull, since many have been temptated to >turn some variant classes into families to have access to small caps >in italic or slanted e.g.). Why are people so stuck with the four standard shapes? It ought to be much cleaner to simply define a few new shapes and to play around with the ...default macros a little. >Moreover, creating the few missing fonts >with EC would be trivial, and maybe cleaner (accents for caps should >be in an all-cap font rather than in TS1?), That's a point. Isn't TS1 to some extent simply the "expert" encoding for the EC fonts? >fontinst could similarly >create a bunch more of VFs for supporting PS fonts as well. > >I'm thinking at least at: > >all caps (cap digits) >c&sc (sc digits--almost inexistant in practice: cf Bell expert) >all sc >c&lc (lc or old style digits) >all lc Shouldn't c&sc have the same digits as c&lc? (I know foundries like to have c&lc with upper case digits and c&sc with lower case, but there's no typographical reason for that, it's just how they package their product.) If you by sc digits mean digits with depth=0 and height=x-height then I think those should be used with the all sc, but not with any of the other. One thing which I miss in your list above is all caps for use in lines mainly c&lc, for acronyms and the like. I know some people prefer to set these in sc, but they are intrinsically upper case, so I (any many others) would rather have them in this special all-caps. In practice this special all caps would probably be realised either using medium glyphs or as the all caps at a slightly smaller point size (DEK does this in the WEB user manual). Roozbeh Pournader wrote: >Thierry Bouche suggests using anothe font for \MakeUpperCase. Well, so does the LaTeX2e fontguide (fntguide.tex). Yannis Haralambous wrote: >I don't think this is the good way, as a matter of fact it cannot >work: uppercase/lowercase/smallcaps is language dependent, and as far >as I know there is no language axis yet in NFSS. Aren't you sort of confusing cause and effect here? By writing in a specific language the author determines which frame of typographical conventions should be used when typesetting the text (or in our case rather marking it up). You can't require that NFSS should not offer a specific font because it isn't used in the specific frame of typographic conventions that applies to your text, it is your responsibility to not choose that font. Language-dependent macros, in the extent that there are any around, exist on a much higher level than the NFSS macros. I think I like the idea of a case axis. I don't like having c&sc on it, since I think that rather belongs on the current shape (n-sl-it) axis, but I realise its appearence on a case axis is inevitable. I am however satisfied if sc will remain to exist on the shape axis. Removing it is (luckily) probably not possible since that would break lots of old documents. Lars Hellström 2-Mar-1999 18:40:39-GMT,5428;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA05155 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:40:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA18734; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:19:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 428043 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:19:26 +0100 Received: from ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.232.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA18726 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:19:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01882 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:19:24 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id TAA13628; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:25:35 +0100 (MET) References: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:25:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: » > (It's a unicode flaw, » >imho, to enforce the capital/small letter distinction [two glyphs for » >the same charachter, no?] and reject small caps, » >lining/hanging/tabular figures). » » I disagree to the parenthesis. The distinction between upper and lower case » letter is usually prescribed by spelling rules etc., whereas the further » distinction of small caps is not. The distinction of upper and lower case » is thus more fundamental. I see what you mean, but you're unfortunately wrong. unicode had to choose between a charachter + markup model, or charachter only. In fact, `uppercase' is not a charachter concept, but a glyphic one, what is at the charachter level is what we call majuscule in french (maybe it's what you call uppercase in swedish, after all...), but its use may be completely determined by proper markup (end of sentence, proper noun, even in german, you'd identify substantives, etc.) Everybody reads with no problem an all-cap sentence where the initial majuscule is not typographically distinguished from the other letters. Moreover, orthotypography may require small caps in some places (e.g. in bibliographies; as i pointed out elsewhere, small caps were used in France in a manner of pre-HTML hypertext marks in typeset material) exactly as it requires caps or lc. If you go for markup, there's no need of 2 cases in a charachter encoding. If you go for simplicity, you need the three cases. » Shouldn't c&sc have the same digits as c&lc? (I know foundries like to have » c&lc with upper case digits and c&sc with lower case, but there's no » typographical reason for that, it's just how they package their product.) you noticed i was asking for sc digits with the c&sc font, my idea being that digits should always be compatible with the surrounding average material, hence what glyphs are used to render "small" (minuscule) letters. » If you by sc digits mean digits with depth=0 and height=x-height then I » think those should be used with the all sc, but not with any of the other. yes that's what i mean, and they should go with all fonts having sc in the lc slots. BTW, people will do all VFs they like to have whatever glyph they want realizing whatever nfss variant you're asking for! » One thing which I miss in your list above is all caps for use in lines » mainly c&lc, for acronyms and the like. I know some people prefer to set » these in sc, but they are intrinsically upper case, so I (any many others) » would rather have them in this special all-caps. In practice this special » all caps would probably be realised either using medium glyphs or as the » all caps at a slightly smaller point size (DEK does this in the WEB user » manual). for that, there should be an all-sc. But that is bad anglo-saxon practice, and latex is a good french software, isn't it? ;-) Yes, lots of people think that sc are a good way to print lots of caps without killing the colour of their pages. But if you think, like me, that sc have a meaning, hence are not a variant shape to things that are semantically caps, then you simply stop putting tons of acronyms everywhere, and never use all-sc fonts. Bringhurst addresses that point, but he seems to try to keep compatible with both points of vue... » Well, so does the LaTeX2e fontguide (fntguide.tex). I confess it was not my idea, my idea was to ask what latex people's thoughts are nowadays. Thierry Bouche, Grenoble. 2-Mar-1999 23:35:47-GMT,5764;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA13230 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:35:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA05163; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:10:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 426676 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:10:12 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05146 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:10:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (dialin341.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.41]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15873 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:10:07 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01052; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:42:46 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Message-ID: <199903022242.XAA01052@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:42:46 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Thierry, > Quite a long time ago, it was said that "the good way to implement > MakeUppercase & friends would be to add a "case" axis to NFSS". > > I'd like to know if some activity has been undertaken to address this. other than talking about it, no, as it involves mainly work done by people who produce vf files. I still think that a "case" axis is probably the best way to think about that stuff what i mean is that it is not that difficult to add code implementing additional dimensions in a successor of NFSS2 but it would need involvement on several fronts. > It seems obvious to me that current nfss misses 2 axis, namely _width_ > ("series" should be broken into weight and width, this bx as > \bfdefault reflects TeX + CM history but has the notoriously bad > consequence of seeing bold extended used inside text, not restricted > to titling material) and _case_. i'm not sure i agree on the split for the series attribute. and it doesn't really origins in the CM history --- it does origin in "Methods of Book design" by Hugh Wiliamson. one idea with the axis' or attributes was that it should be desirable (and sensible) to change individual attributes while retaining al others. Now i claim that there is not much argument for changing individually width but retaining weight or the other way around, eg you would say: "i want my section headings in bold extended series" and the emph2 in normal text in bold-medium" ---i doubt that a design specifying titles as "extended with whatever weight comes along in the markup" or as "bold with whatever width comes along" is very likely though i would not absolutely say such a design can't exist. so my claim for the bad results is not really the deficiency of the of that decision but the non-existent design of class files in the first place (as well as not enough flexibility in the fonts available to the average user who doesn't want to or can't affort to buy good commercial fonts) > The current situation as regards "series" is not too bad because the > translation from markup to layout should be done in a class file, it > is however bad that such classes must be dependant on the font system > used. i'm not sure i understand this remark (but it is getting rather late for me so ...) --- in what respect do they depend on the font system used? i mean proper classes (not a generic one like article et al) can't cater for more than a single font set anyway, can it? but even if you think about a more generic class: that could easily ask for bold extended in titles but normal bold in text --- whether this would be honoured would be a question of which font family you use. okay right now with the .fd files containing substitutions that are geared towards latex always asking for bx the results might not be as good as they could be and granted that the substitution mechansim for selecting a font when the requested one is not available is too simple-minded (but then this *is* an error situation in a production environment) again you might not get the best possible, but i'm not convinced that splitting the series axis would improve that situation. in fact my guess is that such a split would make things worse as the number of combinations without a real font behind it, ie which would result in the system to decide on an alternative, would grow and any such error situation is likely to be resolved incorrectly (even with smarter algorithms like the one in NFSS2) improvement would come through better class design imho > the "case" axis is really needed, and will be ever, since unicode i agree with that (even though i don't go with the unicode argument (with all the flaws that has by trying to be several incompatible things in parallel) but it is getting too late for me good night frank 3-Mar-1999 16:06:12-GMT,3414;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA04188 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:06:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA09169; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:29:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 427611 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:29:54 +0100 Received: from ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.232.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09162 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:29:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02170 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:29:52 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id QAA21991; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:36:11 +0100 (MET) References: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199903022242.XAA01052@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199903031536.QAA21991@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:36:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199903022242.XAA01052@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> » i'm not sure i agree on the split for the series attribute. and it doesn't » really origins in the CM history --- it does origin in "Methods of Book » design" by Hugh Wiliamson. interesting info, thanks. i stand corrected. » one idea with the axis' or attributes was that it should be desirable (and » sensible) to change individual attributes while retaining al others. Now i » claim that there is not much argument for changing individually width but » retaining weight or the other way around That's a point. Here is a (maybe bad--tell me) counterexample: I define an abstract environment as a noarrower column using some narrow sansserif font. Within this environment, I want to be able to typeset anything that could be in the text, including weight variants. Another similar use: in a bilingual (?) document, i keep the translation in a narrow version of the font, everything else affected by the same font variations. Well, yes : my examples could be easily treated by declaring a xx-narrow family, rather than having width & weight separated. My problem is on the practical/genericity of the markup side. something like \fontfamily{\f@family n} is, i believe, very fragile. I see that your » i mean proper classes (not a generic one like article et al) can't cater for » more than a single font set anyway, can it? breaks my argument as well... Thierry Bouche, Grenoble. 3-Mar-1999 17:58:56-GMT,6555;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA07860 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:58:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA23219; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:29:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 427885 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:29:23 +0100 Received: from mail.math.umu.se (root@abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23208 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:29:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by mail.math.umu.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA09039 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:29:18 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se (Unverified) References: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id SAA23209 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:29:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> >» I disagree to the parenthesis. The distinction between upper and lower case >» letter is usually prescribed by spelling rules etc., whereas the further >» distinction of small caps is not. The distinction of upper and lower case >» is thus more fundamental. > >I see what you mean, but you're unfortunately wrong. unicode had to >choose between a charachter + markup model, or charachter only. In >fact, `uppercase' is not a charachter concept, but a glyphic one, what >is at the charachter level is what we call majuscule in french Personally, I have always found whatever English terminology I have came across in this matter to be inferior---either there are lots of words for a concept but none of them fit in any scheme covering all the cases, or there are no words at all---to what I have encountered in other languages. What I meant was the character concept, so we may talk about majuscles and minuscles if you like. I do rather think that upper and lower case are character concepts though; the glyphic term corresponding to upper case ought to be (full) capital (but as for what the lower case term would be, I have no idea). >(maybe it's what you call uppercase in swedish, after all...), Directly translated to English, the Swedish terms would be big letter and small letter. Majuscle and minuscle exist ("majuskel" and "minuskel" repectively), but hardly anyone uses them. The most common terms in the typography-aware community is "versal" (upper case), "gemen" (lower case), and "kapitäl" (small caps), but these are, in your words, glyphical. >but its use >may be completely determined by proper markup (end of sentence, proper >noun, even in german, you'd identify substantives, etc.) I see what you mean, but you're unfortunately wrong. It is not in general possible to determine whether a word is a proper noun or not if it appears in a monocase environment, since quite a lots of proper nouns have once been nonproper nouns. The reason people can still read it is that they usually know what to expect, but that's no argument for removing information. It is usually possible to read a text even if quite a substantial share of the words, or of the letters, are missing. My point is that the authorities who define what is proper written language do this (in the natural languages I know) in a case sensitive way (distinguish between majuscles and minuscles); they set up rules for which letters should be majuscles and which should be minuscles. They do not however set up any rules for which letters should be small caps. I furthermore conjecture that this is the case for all European languages. It is because of this that I hold it to be a reasonable approach of unicode to distinguish between majuscles and minuscles while not having a set of small caps. Not that I think the subject is of much relevance, though. >» Shouldn't c&sc have the same digits as c&lc? (I know foundries like to have >» c&lc with upper case digits and c&sc with lower case, but there's no >» typographical reason for that, it's just how they package their product.) > >you noticed i was asking for sc digits with the c&sc font, my idea >being that digits should always be compatible with the surrounding >average material, hence what glyphs are used to render "small" >(minuscule) letters. > Compability I agree with, but I don't think these sc digits would be any good. In many fonts these digits would be so small that they would be almost unreadable! (Not to mension that they, according to you, do not even exist in most fonts.) There are full capitals in a c&sc font, so why shouldn't digits be allowed to extend above the x-hieght? >» One thing which I miss in your list above is all caps for use in lines >» mainly c&lc, for acronyms and the like. I know some people prefer to set >» these in sc, but they are intrinsically upper case, so I (any many others) >» would rather have them in this special all-caps. In practice this special >» all caps would probably be realised either using medium glyphs or as the >» all caps at a slightly smaller point size (DEK does this in the WEB user >» manual). > >for that, there should be an all-sc. But that is bad anglo-saxon >practice, and latex is a good french software, isn't it? ;-) (Judging from the names of the members of the LaTeX3 project team, I would rather say it is German software.) I realise a lot of you southern European ( ;-) people would use all-sc for these, but I want to have the medium all-caps case instance recognised as well. Lars Hellström 3-Mar-1999 23:44:58-GMT,6192;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA17289 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:44:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA18278; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:26:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 426676 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:26:27 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18265 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:26:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (dialin409.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.109]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00928 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:26:23 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01441; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:10:23 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: Message-ID: <199903032310.AAA01441@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:10:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: contributing ideas to LaTeX To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Martin writes in reply to Lars: > >That's fine by me, I'm in no hurry in this matter. BTW, is the writing of > >such packages a privilege for the LaTeX3 project team, or may the public > >contribute as well? > > You're welcome. They decide only what consitutes LaTeX3. first of all it is THEM not They at least to some people and to the crossword in the LaTeX Graphics companion :-) more importantly, we are eager to have "the public" contribute; most people now members of THEM started off by incoccently contributing (and now feeling bad about being drawn into the all that work that is involvedi n maintaining LaTeX while doing development as well :-) so feel warned. there is the argument that we (ie the project members) shut out others and their good ideas by keeping tight control on 2e these days and rejecting a lot of good ideas on obscure arguments. Yes we are doing that but not on obscure arguments but in our opinion because of the need of the user community for stability and exchangabilities of LaTeX sources. i recently had the pleasure to write a class files for the AIP and they asked me whether i could support their user queries on that class as well (for a while). to my horror i found that the major problems all their users accountered were kernel changes in 2e between 94 and now. in essense i got hit by more or less any feature i used in the current release that was not there in one or the other earlier releases. as it turned out a lot of users had no problem to get a missing support files, eg graphics not installed, keyval not available, or calc not available, but faced with the fact that sometime in 1996 we added the feature that \MakeUppercase can be used in the declaration of a heading turned out to be a major problem as all such users where unable to get their department install a more uptodate 2e (in time at least) this compatibility issue is the main reason why we don't support incremental extensions to the kernel but want to see them in packages up to a point where there is enough to make a clean step forward with enough new features wanted by the community to make them change to an extensively new kernel. with experimental ideas this is even more important. but what goes for 2e as it is now and should not be taken as the message that we do want to implement everything ourselves or are not open to good ideas even if we say, NO, not into the 2e kernel. ----------------------------------------------------- i hope that David Kastrup is on this list as this is relevant to the somewhat unfortunate (and in the end unecessary personal) discussion in latex/2969 we are NOT working on the principles (attributed to big blue) that "if you cant fix it call it a feature by documenting it" or even worse if you can't be bothered to fix it even if somebody tells you how ... ... but we are working on the principle that in 2e designed interfaces should not not be extended in the (2e) kernel and thereby making different maintenance releases of 2e incompatible to each other. with respect to pr/2969 (which you may want to look up in the public bug database to better understand what i'm talking about): i think that the idea of being able to specify key/val type arguments to a package somehow, is interesting and worth having --- in what form is something that i think is debatable ---- but not (in our opinion) by silently changing the defined semantics of the \usepackage command by making the kernel smarter to support "code" as part of the optional argument of \usepackage instead of the advertised (though definitely limited) concept of "a comma separated list of abstract option names, where an option name is a seven bit visible ascii string from without any LaTeX control chars" that interface could and perhaps should be smartened up but not via a kernel change at this stages but via a package (like keyval that smartens up optional arguments in the graphics suite of packages) as the latter ensures compatibilities and allows a user to get a missing package if needed without too much problems. comments welcome good night or rather good morning frank 3-Mar-1999 23:45:13-GMT,5903;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA17301 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:45:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA18326; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:27:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 426679 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:27:16 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18272 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:26:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (dialin409.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.109]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA30396 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:26:26 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01431; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:15:57 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Message-ID: <199903032215.XAA01431@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:15:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: some thoughts on glyph collections To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> the sketch below was written on New Years Eve or somewhere about that time, triggered by the interesting and good work by Lars on extending the NFSS2 idea of a font encoding --- i don't know if that work is available yet, if not i hope he will provide it some time soon at least through interested parties. (that is i think some of his ideas are wrong or say could be better represented differently but that is natural if you come up with new ideas, right?) there have been earlier ideas on these issues but i can't find them right now and anyway, i think this stuff below (which is hopefully not too terse (being the result of several evening/night discussions) should give some food for thought (and perhaps better ideas) stuff like this (or Lars work) is thinking about new concepts (which might result in eventually in something like NFSS3 if tried and played with) it is not really about extending NFSS2 at all even if prototype implementations would work this way. frank ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Glyph Collections and Font Encodings \copyright\ 1999 Frank Mittelbach Chris Rowley A glyph collection is a collection of glyphs. In \LaTeX{}, the useful glyph collections, which thus get \LaTeX{} names, are ones such that every glyph in the collection can be represented by using a single 8-bit (virtual) font and preferably by a font that is typically widely available in a large range of typographic forms. In \LaTeX{}, \emph{representing a glyph} means that any \LaTeX{} internal token sequence that is advertised as producing that glyph will do so (reasonably well). A font represents a glyph collection if it represents every glyph in the collection. In \LaTeX{}, \emph{reasonably well} should mean, for letters and standard punctuation only, that the expected kerning is produced. How a particular font represents a \LaTeX{} internal token sequence is defined as and by the \LaTeX{} \emph{encoding} of that font. There may therefore be more than one encoding used by fonts that represent the same glyph collection (some of which may do a better job than others); but a glyph collection will usually have a major encoding associated with it. For example (approx), there is a glyph collection that is everything that can be represented in a T1 font except thorn, eth and dotlessj: call this EL (Euro-Latin). This glyph collection can also be defined as `a subset of what one expects to be able to produce with a random PS standard font'. It is (we think) represented by all fonts that really do have the following font encodings: LY1, T1 and OT1 (suitably precisely defined). This is therefore an excellent candidate as a \LaTeX{} glyph collection. [??? Glyph collections and/or encodings may need to state which glyphs are kernable.] Typesetting text with glyph collections. IMPORTANT CHANGES When typesetting a document, the font status of the \LaTeX{} document now has an extra attribute: \emph{current glyph collection}. This must be explicitly changed, \ie the system will never change it internally (except maybe for a single glyph). The encoding status is now determined by the other aspects of the current font status (except size??). The .fd files are now labeled by glyph-collection and family and specify for each shape/series which encoding to use and also (as now) which actual \TeX{} font to load and use. There are two types of glyphs (\ie of \LaTeX{} internals): letters and punctuation; text symbols. Typesetting the former never (we hope:-) changes the font. Typesetting the latter may do so (for this symbol only), by either: changing the glyph collection and hence the font (via the .fd file info); explicitly choosing a particular font. ------------------------------------------------------------ 3-Mar-1999 23:49:49-GMT,2556;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA17444 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:49:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA18334; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:27:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 426682 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:27:20 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18279 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:26:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (dialin409.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.109]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01217 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:26:28 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01426; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:02:35 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Message-ID: <199903032202.XAA01426@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:02:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Lars.Hellstrom@MATH.UMU.SE writes: > >for that, there should be an all-sc. But that is bad anglo-saxon > >practice, and latex is a good french software, isn't it? ;-) > > (Judging from the names of the members of the LaTeX3 project team, I would > rather say it is German software.) I realise a lot of you southern European wrong on both accounts :-) within the currently active group German is not the dominant language frank 4-Mar-1999 0:03:00-GMT,5134;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA17771 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:02:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA18342; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:27:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 426685 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:27:24 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18298 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:26:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (dialin409.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.109]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00910 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:26:35 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01405; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:35:12 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199903022242.XAA01052@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199903031536.QAA21991@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199903032135.WAA01405@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:35:12 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199903031536.QAA21991@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Thierry, > » i'm not sure i agree on the split for the series attribute. and it doesn't > » really origins in the CM history --- it does origin in "Methods of Book > » design" by Hugh Wiliamson. > > interesting info, thanks. i stand corrected. how should you know my thought process from looking at the code? :-) > » one idea with the axis' or attributes was that it should be desirable (and > » sensible) to change individual attributes while retaining al others. Now i > » claim that there is not much argument for changing individually width but > » retaining weight or the other way around > > That's a point. Here is a (maybe bad--tell me) counterexample: I i was replying to explain my original reasoning and to spawn discussion if necessary (i don't doubt that there are counterexamples where the separation of this axis into two is desirable). the question that i think one has to ask is, are they relevant enough to implement the separation as a spearate concept or are the problems resulting from it (eg sparse font table) are worse and outweighting them? i'm not saying that my reasoning back then was correct (though it did look reasonable to me) to give another (perhaps even stranger example): would you think a colour axis on fonts is appropriate? say colour in the sense of "modified" like outline only, gray, ... --- my feeling is not, even if you could produce comparible examples like the one you made for width below --- what do you think in that case? > define an abstract environment as a noarrower column using some narrow > sansserif font. Within this environment, I want to be able to typeset > anything that could be in the text, including weight variants. Another > similar use: in a bilingual (?) document, i keep the translation in a > narrow version of the font, everything else affected by the same font > variations. Well, yes : my examples could be easily treated by > declaring a xx-narrow family, rather than having width & weight > separated. My problem is on the practical/genericity of the markup > side. something like \fontfamily{\f@family n} is, i believe, very > fragile. a) i like your examples, they are worth thinking about b) i don't like the concept of fake families, it is fragile as you say and while it may be alright in a one-off case if you starting using it on regular basis then something is wrong (either you need an extra axis or perhaps something else is amiss) c) i wonder if what you need here is an axis or perhaps you need a mechnism in which you can control your defaults better, eg a way to say, that within this environment/region the \bfdefault is "bc" and ... tossing in ideas > I see that your > » i mean proper classes (not a generic one like article et al) can't cater for > » more than a single font set anyway, can it? > > breaks my argument as well... it breaks only the argument that the generic classes are of any use :-) good night frank 4-Mar-1999 11:44:52-GMT,3034;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id EAA01936 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 04:44:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA27556; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:18:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 427614 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:18:01 +0100 Received: from mail.math.umu.se (root@abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27545 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:18:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by mail.math.umu.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12388 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:17:57 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se References: <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id MAA27546 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:17:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: some thoughts on glyph collections To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199903032215.XAA01431@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Frank wrote: >the sketch below was written on New Years Eve or somewhere about that time, >triggered by the interesting and good work by Lars on extending the NFSS2 idea >of a font encoding --- i don't know if that work is available yet, if not i >hope he will provide it some time soon at least through interested parties. > The work is available on CTAN at macros/latex/contrib/supported/relenc/ (BTW Frank, I managed to get around the resetting of \escapechar that was necessary in the version I sent you, so now I only grumble about it in the Implementation section. I still think that NFSS changing \escapechar is a bad idea though; not changing \escapechar would use less tokens.) Also, perhaps I should point out that what Frank called glyph collection seems to be pretty much what I call encoding in relenc.tex, and what he called encoding seems to be pretty much what I call coding scheme in relenc.tex. Lars Hellström 4-Mar-1999 14:40:01-GMT,3096;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA05174 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:39:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA15738; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:11:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 428054 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:11:25 +0100 Received: from ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.232.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15725 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:11:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03965 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:11:22 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id PAA17441; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:17:49 +0100 (MET) References: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199903041417.PAA17441@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:17:49 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: » >but its use » >may be completely determined by proper markup (end of sentence, proper » >noun, even in german, you'd identify substantives, etc.) » I see what you mean, but you're unfortunately wrong. Ahah ! » It is not in general » possible to determine whether a word is a proper noun or not if it appears » in a monocase environment, since quite a lots of proper nouns have once » been nonproper nouns. That's why I said _markup_: you don't hear caps when you speak a natural language, so that is not needed. Now the uc/sc/lc glyphs used on print (should) follow rather simple rules that are dictated by their nature, which could be specified by some markup, precisely as you'd prefer \vector{v} to have v rendered in whatever specific style you like for vectors. Something like natbib's \citeauthor could produce c&sc, \Name c&lc, etc. » Not that I think the subject is of much relevance, though. you said it! \Fistname{thierry} \Name{Bouche}, \Town{grenoble}. 4-Mar-1999 19:26:24-GMT,2836;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA13373 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:26:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA13122; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:41:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 428221 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:41:57 +0100 Received: from ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13109 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:41:54 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:41:45 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:40:41 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:40:19 +0100 X400-Received: by mta open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:40:18 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN2 in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:41:39 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<14046.54024.144490.151366@fell.] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: Axis in n... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: , <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr>, <199903032202.XAA01426@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14046.54024.144490.151366@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:41:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199903032202.XAA01426@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> > wrong on both accounts :-) within the currently active group German > is not the dominant language frank but it may be the dominant culture:-)?? Anyway, we're all euros (that's a type of kangaroo in english) now ... except Michael of course! chris 4-Mar-1999 19:30:22-GMT,2778;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA13522 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:30:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA12887; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:38:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 428218 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:38:24 +0100 Received: from ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12875 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:38:22 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:38:08 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:37:59 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:37:36 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN2 in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:38:02 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<14046.53507.659569.973388@fell.] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: some thou... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr>, <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14046.53507.659569.973388@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:38:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: some thoughts on glyph collections To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199903032215.XAA01431@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Frank wrote -- > which is hopefully not too terse What Frank is too polite to say is that the rather formal nature of this document is my fault:-). Also, the detailed facts about `PS fonts' may not be quite right so please do not comment on this. And I *know* that this is probably not the right name for them ... well, not this week:-). chris 4-Mar-1999 22:59:49-GMT,1994;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA18970 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:59:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA26174; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:17:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 428303 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:17:52 +0100 Received: from abacus.maths.uq.edu.au (abacus.maths.uq.edu.au [130.102.160.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26166 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:17:43 +0100 (MET) Received: (from kgs@localhost) by abacus.maths.uq.edu.au (8.9.0/8.9.0) id IAA23879 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:17:28 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <199903042217.IAA23879@abacus.maths.uq.edu.au> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:17:28 +1000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Ken Smith Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Chris Rowley writes > > wrong on both accounts :-) within the currently active group German > > is not the dominant language frank > but it may be the dominant culture:-)?? > Anyway, we're all euros (that's a type of kangaroo in english) now ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ... except Michael of course! I didn't realise that all you Euros were racing across the landscape with great leaps and bounds of joy. > chris Ken Smith kgs@maths.uq.edu.au 4-Mar-1999 23:29:15-GMT,3632;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA19596 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:29:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA27157; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:45:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 428310 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:45:20 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27148 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:45:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (dialin414.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.114]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA09080 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:45:17 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02007; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:19:23 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199903032215.XAA01431@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Message-ID: <199903042219.XAA02007@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:19:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: some thoughts on glyph collections To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Lars > (BTW Frank, I managed to get around the resetting of \escapechar that was > necessary in the version I sent you, so now I only grumble about it in the > Implementation section. I still think that NFSS changing \escapechar is a > bad idea though; not changing \escapechar would use less tokens.) the advantage of setting the escapaechar is that i know what its value is, right? which could differ and then i'm in deep shit (i think that was my original reasoning to implement it the way it is implemented) but i grand you that this is layered software and that part goes back to NFSS1 alpha (or pre :-) > Also, perhaps I should point out that what Frank called glyph collection > seems to be pretty much what I call encoding in relenc.tex, and what he > called encoding seems to be pretty much what I call coding scheme in > relenc.tex. yes indeed. do you agree that our names are better? point is what we call "glyph collection" and you "encoding" is a set ie something unordered (a collection) which is why i think calling it encoding is confusing the issues as in my book encoding means associate a mapping with a set. right? example: the glyphs in a ps font (ie those in the AFM file some of which are compositive) form a collection (you call it encoding) and the encoding vector defines an encoding (ie the subset + its mapping to numbers) that can be actually used (you call it coding scheme) frank 5-Mar-1999 12:54:02-GMT,2520;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id FAA05476 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 05:54:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03835; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:05:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 427773 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:05:26 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03826 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:05:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.22] (sl02.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.22]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03007 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:05:22 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <199903032202.XAA01426@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> , <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr>, <199903032202.XAA01426@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:04:38 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: Axis in nfss To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14046.54024.144490.151366@fell.open.ac.uk> At 19:41 +0100 1999/03/04, Chris Rowley wrote: >Anyway, we're all euros (that's a type of kangaroo in english) now >... except Michael of course! On page there is a description (with pictures) of the Euro. It says that Euros are not Kangaroos, and you can learn about their habits, including the Euro breeding habits, if you did not already know that. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 5-Mar-1999 13:40:36-GMT,3078;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA06339 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 06:40:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA07148; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:42:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 427817 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:42:30 +0100 Received: from ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de (ixgate02.dfnrelay.d400.de [193.174.248.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07100 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:42:24 +0100 (MET) X400-Received: by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:41:44 +0100 X400-Received: by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:41:09 +0100 X400-Received: by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:40:46 +0100 X400-Received: by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:41:35 +0100 X400-Originator: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<14047.53205.562513.15946@fell.o] X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 (22) Content-Identifier: Re: wallaroos... Alternate-Recipient: Allowed References: <199903032202.XAA01426@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de>, <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr>, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14047.53205.562513.15946@fell.open.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:41:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: wallaroos, dunnies, vegemite etc To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg wrote -- > At 19:41 +0100 1999/03/04, Chris Rowley wrote: > >Anyway, we're all euros (that's a type of kangaroo in english) now > >... except Michael of course! > > On page there is a > description (with pictures) of the Euro. It says that Euros are not > Kangaroos, and you can learn about their habits, including the Euro > breeding habits, if you did not already know that. Apologies, I was as ever trying to simplify the subject matter. Had I remembered that Hans would read it, I would have included the whole Encyclopedia entry:-). chris 5-Mar-1999 14:08:10-GMT,2980;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA06881 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:08:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA10966; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:14:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 427857 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:14:31 +0100 Received: from mail0.nada.kth.se (mail0.nada.kth.se [130.237.222.70]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10957 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:14:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.237.37.22] (sl98.modempool.kth.se [130.237.37.124]) by mail0.nada.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09633 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:14:28 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: su95-hab@mail.nada.kth.se References: <199903032202.XAA01426@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de>, <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr>, Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:13:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: wallaroos, dunnies, vegemite etc To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14047.53205.562513.15946@fell.open.ac.uk> At 13:41 +0100 1999/03/05, Chris Rowley wrote: >..It says that Euros are not >> Kangaroos, and you can learn about their habits, including the Euro >> breeding habits, if you did not already know that. > >Apologies, I was as ever trying to simplify the subject matter. > >Had I remembered that Hans would read it, I would have included the >whole Encyclopedia entry:-). I did not say Euros are not Kangaroos, only that is was claimed so on that page. In fact, my Merriam "Webster's Third International" says they are. So I do not know which is true. Since I lived in the US for several years, I am myself curios about the habits of the Euro. I recall that some reported part their breeding habits on this list; like marsupials they had their offspring in a pouch between themselves and the keyboard. So I thought I should supply an addition. :-) Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 5-Mar-1999 16:39:18-GMT,4381;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA10587 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:39:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA26153; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:52:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 428108 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:52:24 +0100 Received: from mail.math.umu.se (root@abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26143 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:52:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by mail.math.umu.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18055 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:52:20 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se References: <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199903032215.XAA01431@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id QAA26146 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:52:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: some thoughts on glyph collections To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199903042219.XAA02007@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Frank >Lars > > > Also, perhaps I should point out that what Frank called glyph collection > > seems to be pretty much what I call encoding in relenc.tex, and what he > > called encoding seems to be pretty much what I call coding scheme in > > relenc.tex. > >yes indeed. do you agree that our names are better? > No I do not; my intention with that paragraph was simply to give other people some first aid in sorting out things. >point is what we call "glyph collection" and you "encoding" is a set ie >something unordered (a collection) which is why i think calling it encoding is >confusing the issues as in my book encoding means associate a mapping with a >set. right? Firstly, the reason I started calling it encoding is that when I started to write relenc (that was almost two years ago), I thought about it as a package for use under LaTeX2e. In LaTeX2e, that NFSS axis is called encoding; it's that simple. Secondly, I do think about encoding as being a mapping---a mapping from some set containing letter tokens, "other" tokens, some LaTeX commands, and certain patterns of such to "typeset output" (a vague term, I know, but I think you get the idea). I suppose your glyph collections are the ranges of my encodings, but I do not think that glyph collections are the objects that one should choose with NFSS3. It does matter how things get mapped---you cannot simply be content with that there is something which gets mapped to what you want, you must also know what this something is. >example: the glyphs in a ps font (ie those in the AFM file some of which are >compositive) form a collection (you call it encoding) and the encoding vector As used here, I do not. -------->~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ /LH >defines an encoding (ie the subset + its mapping to numbers) that can be >actually used (you call it coding scheme) Thirdly, the encoding mapping has a natural decomposition in two parts, namely what is done in TeX and what is done after TeX. I use the term coding scheme to describe the combination of all mapping that is done after TeX. Your description seems a bit odd---the coding scheme maps numbers to glyphs, not the other way round. Lars Hellström 5-Mar-1999 17:49:21-GMT,21026;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA12625 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:49:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA00184; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:48:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 428171 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:48:49 +0100 Received: from mail.math.umu.se (root@abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00172 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:48:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by mail.math.umu.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA18151 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:48:45 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se References: <199903021825.TAA13628@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199902281535.QAA14126@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <199903032215.XAA01431@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id RAA00178 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:48:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: some thoughts on glyph collections To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199903042219.XAA02007@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Since Frank and I seem mainly to have been discussing terminology lately, I suppose the rest of the recipients of this list might well feel a bit left out. Furthermore since I guess quite a few of you haven't bothered (I don't think I would) to download my main text on the subject (the relenc package documentation), I thought it better if I did this for you. What follows below is an excerpt with the most relevant part. Lars Hellström \documentclass[a4paper]{ltxdoc} \newcommand\B{\penalty300\relax} \newcommand\package[1]{\textsf{#1}} \title{The \package{relenc} package} \author{Lars Hellstr\"om% \thanks{E-mail: \texttt{Lars.Hellstrom@math.umu.se}}% } \begin{document} \maketitle \section{Motivation} \label{Motivation} % This paper is about some shortcomings that, in my humble opinion, exists in the way \LaTeX\ handles fonts. I also point out a way in which these shortcomings can be overcome. The primary problem is ligatures, but as there are a few different ligature concepts that are of interest, let me begin with specifying my terms. A \emph{ligature} is a sequence of characters (almost always letters) that have been given an appearance somewhat different from the one the characters would have if simply put side to side, almost always because they would otherwise not look very pleasing to the eye. Despite this difference in appearence, it is still meant to be read as the entire character sequence, not as a completely new character. The canonical example of this is the `fi' ligature. In \TeX\ fonts, there is a special mechanism to implement this, and everything that is implemented using this mechanism will be called \emph{font ligatures}. It is almost always the case however, that some font ligartures are not ligatures as defined above, but simply a handy way to type characters that are hard or impossible to type using a standard keyboard; the canonical example of this is the `\texttt{--}' (two hyphens) to `--' (endash) conversion that is present in most \TeX\ fonts. Such nonproper ligatures will be called \emph{syntactic ligatures}, and proper ligatures will sometimes be called \emph{aestetic ligatures} to stress their origin. A \emph{font-dependent command} in \LaTeX\ is a command whose actions depend directly or indirectly on which font is the current. (I would not consider a command |\foo| defined by \begin{verbatim} \def\foo{\char65 } \end{verbatim} as a font-dependent command since it always does the same thing. The results need not always be identical, but that is because the command is executed under different conditions.) An example of a font-dependent command is |\"|, which is (roughly) |\accent 127| when the current font is \texttt{OT1}-encoded and |\accent 4| when the current font is \texttt{T1}-encoded. (The dependence is indirect since the command directly depends on a macro which is set during the font selection process, but there is a dependence.) For the purposes of this paper, if would also suffice to define a font-dependent command as a command that is defined by some of the commands |\DeclareTextCommand|, |\ProvideTextCommand|, |\DeclareTextSymbol|, |\Declare|\B|Text|\B|Command|\B|Default|, |\Provide|\B|Text|\B|Command|\B|Default|, or |\Declare|\B|TextAccent|. \LaTeX\ documentation uses the term `encoding-specific command' for these, but for reasons that will soon be appearent, that term would be somewhat inappropriate here. Thus, with these definitions taken care of, it is now time to get to the point. The recommended latin font encoding these days is the \texttt{T1}/`Cork'\slash`Extended \TeX\ text' encoding, and this is rightfully so. It is clearly superior to the old \texttt{OT1} encoding, as it adds more than a hundred accented characters to those which can be used to form a word that \TeX\ can automatically hyphenate, but there is at least one case in which the \texttt{OT1} encoding is preferable. This case is when the font has many ligatures. In the \texttt{T1} encoding, there are seven slots available for ligatures, and these have been assigned to the `ff', `fi', `fl', `ffi', `ffl', `IJ', and `ij' ligatures. Since all slots have been assigned to something, there is no place to put an additional ligature, even if it is needed. Thus the conclusion is that if a font is to be \texttt{T1} encoded, it cannot contain any ligatures in addition to the aforemensioned; to put it the other way, if a font design requires the presence of a ligature other than the aforemensioned, it cannot be \texttt{T1} encoded. In the \texttt{OT1} encoding, there are only five slots assigned to ligatures, but there are 128 unassigned slots that can be used for anything the font designer wants. Thus having more than five ligatures in an \texttt{OT1} encoded font is no problem, but a recourse to using \texttt{OT1} is not a very good option, as it leaves the hyphenation problem unsolved. The solution, then, would seem to be the creation of a new encoding, and part of it will, but this will not be quite sufficient for reasons I will shortly describe. For the moment though, let us, as an intellectual experiment, assume that we shall solve this problem with \texttt{T1} having too few slots for ligatures by creating a new encoding for a hypothetical font that would need more than seven ligatures. Let us also assume that the new encoding shall be a modified version of the \texttt{T1} encoding, where some accented characters will have been left out to make room for the ligatures. Finally, let us assume that we want to be as international as possible and include as many of the accented characters as we can squeeze in. These are three simple assumptions, and there are good reasons for all of them. How \emph{many} slots do we need to assign to ligatures, then? This varies, of course, between different font families, but it might vary \emph{even more} between fonts in the same family. The \texttt{it} shapes might need a few more than the \texttt{n} shapes, while the \texttt{sc} shapes might not need any at all (`\textsc{fi}' (|fi|) and `\textsc{f{}i}' (|f{}i|) look exactly the same in most font families). Instead, there are some accents which are harder to put on in the \texttt{sc} shapes (in many font families the ring on \textsc{a} in \textsc{\r{a}} should touch the main letter; this is not what the default definition does), so it appears that the optimal thing to do would be to have slightly different encodings for different fonts, even if they belong to the same family. This is theoretically no problem; \TeX's macro facilities are flexible enough to allow user level commands that do different things in different fonts. It becomes, however, a problem to do this in a reasonably universal way, so that the macros produced work in general and not only for a single font family. Standard \LaTeX\ has a mechanism for doing precisely this. Using the commands |\DeclareTextCommand|, |\DeclareTextSymbol|, |\DeclareTextAccent|, or one of their relatives, one can give a definition of a command that is used with one particular font encoding and not with any other. The problem with using this mechanism here is that one might have to have the normal and italic variants declared as having different encoding attributes (as well as different shapes), so one would have to either device a whole new set of font changing commands or redefine \LaTeX's own high-level font changing commands (such as |\textit|) to change encoding as well as shape or series. Neither alternative is good, and one can expect several incompability problems to arise for both of them. A better solution starts with recognizing that there are actually two different `encoding' concepts that can be found here. One is the attribute by which fonts are selected in \LaTeX, the other is the actual layout of a font. I will call this latter concept a \emph{coding scheme} and reserve \emph{encoding} for the former. (Formally, one may start by defining a \emph{slot} to be an integer in the range 0--255 and a \emph{glyph} to be a pattern (usually recognizable as a letter, digit, punctuation mark, or some other part of written language, but it need not always be). A coding scheme can then be defined as a mapping of slots to classes of glyphs% \footnote{The reason a coding scheme maps to classes of glyphs, rather than just to glyphs, is that a glyph is defined as a pattern and there are usually many patterns which serve equally well as, for example, the letter `a'. The class for `a' contains all a's in all fonts. One would furthermore expect it to contain all A's (for the sake of all-caps fonts) and all Asmall's (for the sake of c\&sc fonts).}. A font complies to a particular coding scheme if, for every slot $n$ in the domain of the coding scheme, the glyph occupying slot $n$ of the font is a member of the class that the encoding scheme maps $n$ to. But I digress.) As far as I know, there is no strict defintion of what an encoding is, apart from the operational given in \cite{fntguide} as something that is part of the specification of a font. (The canonical source for such a definition would be \cite{encguide}, but that paper is, according to its author, ``still in an embryo state''.) In font discussions, an encoding is often taken to imply a specific coding scheme, and many encoding definition files seem to be all about listing the coding scheme, but is this implication suitable? I would claim that in this case, it is not. A more constructive definition would be to see an encoding as a specification of which font-dependent commands are available to the author. An encoding definition file, on the other hand, is a specification of the interface between \LaTeX\ macros and the information in a \TeX\ font. It does not matter to the author whether \H{o} is |\char174| of the current font, generated as |\accent125o| by \TeX, or whatever. The only thing that matters is that when the author types |Erd\H{o}s|, it comes out as Erd\H{o}s. Consequently, there is really no need for the font-dependent commands in \LaTeX\ to do the same thing for any two fonts with the same encoding attribute, it is merely the case that standard \LaTeX\ does not offer an interface for defining font-dependent commands in any other way. The natural remedy for this then, would be to write a package which offers such an interface. This is what I have done; the package is called \package{relenc} and this paper is its documentation. Its usage and implementation are described in the following sections, and the appendices describe some accompanying files. I shall however conclude this section by an attempt to elaborate the above view on what an encoding is, or perhaps rather, what it should be. The encoding property of a font is a set of rules that determines how the author's manuscript is interpreted---the input character \texttt{q} for example has not the same interpretation in a \texttt{T1} encoded font (where it is the letter `q') as in an \texttt{OT2} encoded font (where it is a cyrillic letter whose closest latin equivalent is the Czech `\v{c}'). An encoding specification should therefore be a formalization of an agreement between the font designer on one hand and the author on the other---it specifies which rules each side must comply with and which results that can then be expected. An example of the author's rules may be to refrain from writing \TeX\ code like |\char 166|, because the font designer may have an option on what to put in that slot. If the author breaks the rules, he or she may find that the manuscript produced contains text whose meaning is not the same if typeset with two different fonts even if they do have the same encoding property. In practice, the author's rules for the standard text encodings are pretty much the same as the rules on how write \TeX\ code we find in every elementary book on the subject, so they are hardly new to us. An example of the font designer's rules may be to put an exclamation mark in slot 33, so that \texttt{!} actually print as one, or to include a font ligature that converts two consequtive hyphens to an endash, so that |--| actually will print as an endash, which the author by tradition expects it to do. If the font designer breaks the rules then authors who follow their rules might find that they do not get the right results anyway and such a font designer is likely to get complaints from authors about this. In practice however, the font designer rules are often vaugely specified if specified at all and hence there are gray areas for most encodings where there are no rights and wrongs. The \texttt{OT1} encoding is probably the one most plauged by these; the dollar versus sterling problem (an excellent example of how changing the glyph of a single slot may completely alter the interpretation of a text) is a classic. One of my intentions with writing this text is to work for that these gray areas are shrunken or even completely eliminated, although I do not think there is anything that can be done for the \texttt{OT1} encoding---its irregularities are much too well known and exploited. Now if an encoding is (a formalization of) an agreement, how do the parties agree to it? On the font designer's side this happens when the font designer gives a font a specific encoding by writing a font definition file that defines that font with that encoding. On the author's side this happens when the author selects a font with that encoding property. So far the informal description, now it is time to get to the formalization. Which exactly are the rules for the author and for the font designer? This varies between different encodings, but only in the details. The areas the encoding specification must cover can be listed and are: \begin{itemize} \item Which input characters that can be used directly to produce some of the font's glyphs in the output and what they will generate. This pertains to the author, who shouldn't use other input characters. The allowed ones do however have well-defined results. \item Which coding scheme the font must comply with. The pertains to the font designer. There are no direct restrictions on the use of slots not listed in this coding scheme.\footnote{There may be indirect restrictions, see below.} \item Which the required syntactic ligatures are. This pertains to both author and font designer. The author cannot trust any in addition to these, the font designer must include them.\footnote{It could well be that there \emph{should not} be any syntactic ligatures in addition to these. I know of no situation where there would be an advantage in adding syntactic ligatures.} \item Which the font-dependent commands are and what they will generate. This pertains to the author in the same manner as does the input character rules. \item Which the required font dimensions are and what they stand for. This pertains to both the author and the font designer in the same manner as does the syntactic ligature rules.\footnote{Even though very few physical authors access any font dimensions, the same does not hold for packages, and these also count as authors in this context.} \end{itemize} After these have been specified, the grey areas should be very small indeed! There are however a few additional twists that must be sorted out. If the required coding scheme listed in the encoding specification does not cover all the 256 slots, then one must be aware that in particular the required syntactic ligatures, but also the font-dependent commands, may impose some restrictions on the font's coding scheme in addition to those expressed by the given coding scheme that the font must comply with. These restrictions are then of the form that a glyph from a specific class must be assigned to some slot, but the font designer may freely choose exactly which slot. Thus any single slot not specified by the required coding scheme may be used for just about anything. The use of the \package{relenc} package requires that the following area has to be added the ones listed above. \begin{itemize} \item The font designer must see to that for every combination of a variable command and a font, there is a variant that will give the specified result.\footnote{The terms \emph{variable command} and \emph{variant} are explained in the complete documentation.} \end{itemize} Hyphentation patterns do also offer theoretical problems to the use of the \package{relenc} package, as these refer explicitly to the coding scheme of the font. Problems with these can however not result in anything worse than bad hyphenation, so the interpretation of a text should not be affected. It is furthermore the case that in practice the problems can often be avoided (the complete documentation treats this topic in more detail). Finally, there are two font parameters---|\hyphenchar| and |\skewchar|---that do explicitly relate to the coding scheme of the font and which are not stored in the font itself. It is possible that the value of at least one of these should be specified in an encoding specification, but that particular question is not of immediate interest to the \package{relenc} package, as \LaTeX\ itself already provides the font designer with the ability to set these for each font individually (using the sixth argument of |\Declare|\B|Font|\B|Shape|). \section{Usage} \subsection{Author usage} All the author has to do to use fonts with a relaxed encoding, as opposed to fonts with for example the \texttt{T1} encoding, is to include the command \begin{verbatim} \usepackage{relenc} \end{verbatim} in the preamble and load the encoding definition file, for example using the \package{fontenc} package. It is however important that the \package{relenc} package is loaded \emph{before} the encoding definition file, as the latter uses commands defined in the former. \begin{thebibliography}{99} % \bibitem{ltoutenc} Johannes Braams, David Carlisle, Alan Jeffrey, Frank Mittelbach, Chris Rowley, Rainer Sch\"opf: \texttt{ltoutenc.dtx} (part of the \LaTeXe\ base distribution). % \bibitem{fontinst} Alan Jeffrey, Rowland McDonnell (manual), Sebastian Rahtz, Ulrik Vieth: \emph{The fontinst utility} (v\,1.8), \texttt{fontinst.dtx}, in CTAN at \texttt{ftp:/\slash ftp.tex.ac.uk\slash tex-archive\slash fonts\slash utilities\slash fontinst\slash}\textellipsis % \bibitem{fntguide} \LaTeX3 Project Team: \emph{\LaTeXe\ font selection}, \texttt{fntguide.tex} (part of the \LaTeXe\ base distribution). % \bibitem{encguide} Frank Mittelbach [et al. ?]: \texttt{encguide.tex}. To appear as part of the \LaTeXe\ base distribution. Sometime. Or at least, that is the intention. % \end{thebibliography} \end{document} 10-Apr-1999 4:00:14-GMT,1682;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA13748 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 22:00:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA10280 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 06:00:08 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199904100400.GAA10280@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 06:00:08 +0200 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Heidelberg (1.8b)" Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the LATEX-L list To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" X-LSV-ListID: LATEX-L Sat, 10 Apr 1999 06:00:08 Your subscription to the LATEX-L list is due for renewal. 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Summary of resource utilization ------------------------------- CPU time: 0.010 sec Overhead CPU: 0.020 sec CPU model: SPARCstation-20 (128M) 14-Apr-1999 13:53:23-GMT,4457;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA27132 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:53:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA17888; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:20:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 430124 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:20:37 +0200 Received: from waldorf.cs.uni-dortmund.de (waldorf.cs.uni-dortmund.de [129.217.4.42]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17877 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:20:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from goedel.cs.uni-dortmund.de (goedel.cs.uni-dortmund.de [129.217.28.168]) by waldorf.cs.uni-dortmund.de with SMTP id PAA16386 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:20:05 +0200 (MES) Received: from ls2.cs.uni-dortmund.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by goedel.cs.uni-dortmund.de id PAA02862; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:20:05 +0200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <37149604.B65C95DB@ls2.cs.uni-dortmund.de> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:20:04 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Karsten Tinnefeld Organization: Universität Dortmund, LS Informatik 2 Subject: Documentation Scripts in LaTeX base distribution To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Some time ago, it took me long to discover the two scripts to create the LaTeX core documentation, appended to source2e.tex. In the meantime, I have extended the one script to generate "other" documentation in general for my own needs and would like to recommend that in the future both scripts are unpacked to single files to be found more easily by the beginner and that probably some of my additions find their way into the distribution. I have pasted the script text into genSource2e.sh and genOtherDocs.sh resp. and applied the following patches to the latter in order to 1) improve robustness in other unpacked sources: do not complain of \*.fdd or source2e.tex not existing, run in batchmode (interactive mode is depressing when stopping for run time errors written to /dev/null) 2) allow for one central place to turn (off) output in order to track progress, and 3) add the extra possibility to add \AtBeginDocument\ stuff (e.g., \OnlyDescription) on the command line using the genOtherDocs.sh + \\OnlyDescription a4paper,twopage syntax. patch genOtherDocs.sh << "EOF" 13a14,27 > OUTPUT= > #OUTPUT=>/dev/null > MOREABD=0 > if [ $# -gt 1 ] > then > if [ $1 = + ] > then > MOREABD=$2 > echo $2 > shift > shift > fi > fi > 15d28 < echo "\batchmode" >> ltxdoc.cfg 23c36,39 < --- > if [ $MOREABD -eq 1 ] > then > echo "\\AtBeginDocument{\\$MOREABD}" >> ltxdoc.cfg > fi 29d44 < echo "\batchmode" >> ltxguide.cfg 33,34c48,50 < < for i in *dtx *fdd *guide.tex ltnews*.tex --- > FILES=`ls *dtx *fdd *guide.tex ltnews*.tex 2>/dev/null` > echo $FILES > for i in $FILES 38c54 < if (grep "Include{$B}" source2e.tex >/dev/null ; ) --- > if (test -f source2e.tex && grep "Include{$B}" source2e.tex >/dev/null ; ) 43c59 < if (latex $i > /dev/null) --- > if (latex $i $OUTPUT) 46c62 < latex $i > /dev/null --- > latex $i $OUTPUT 48c64 < makeindex -s gind.ist $B.idx > /dev/null 2> /dev/null --- > makeindex -s gind.ist $B.idx $OUTPUT 2> /dev/null 50c66 < makeindex -s gglo.ist -o $B.gls $B.glo > /dev/null 2> /dev/null --- > makeindex -s gglo.ist -o $B.gls $B.glo $OUTPUT 2> /dev/null 52c68 < latex $i > /dev/null --- > latex $i $OUTPUT EOF Comments? -- Karsten Tinnefeld Silence is the perfectest herald of joy: I were but little happy, if I could say how much. 8-May-1999 15:41:39-GMT,2310;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA00547 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 09:41:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA02140; Sat, 8 May 1999 17:35:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 429804 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 8 May 1999 17:35:54 +0200 Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02130 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 17:35:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from DENALI (p26.block1.tc4.state.MA.tiac.com [206.119.45.27]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03883; Sat, 8 May 1999 11:35:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990508123413.01df06c0@tiac.net> Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 12:36:03 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Y&Y Support Line Subject: Re: Two important new books To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 08:46 AM 99/05/08 -0600, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: >Although Apple and Xante have been shipping printers with Level 3 >support for more than two years, Hewlett-Packard (visit them at >http://www.hp.com/go/printers) only in the last few months, with the Which is no doubt related to the fact that they just spent an enormous amount of effort creating a reliable clone for PS level II. >new HP Color LaserJet 8500, offers such support, and the number two >printer vendor, Lexmark, has yet to do so. Regards, Berthold. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com (Y) 9-May-1999 0:07:28-GMT,2529;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA11935 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 18:07:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA20770; Sun, 9 May 1999 01:55:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 429531 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 9 May 1999 01:55:18 +0200 Received: from blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (uucp@blaubaer.kn-bremen.de [134.102.38.17]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA20731 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 01:54:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dream.kn-bremen.de (uucp@localhost) by blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with UUCP id AAA05158 for latex-l@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Sun, 9 May 1999 00:56:24 +0200 Received: by dream.kn-bremen.de (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 08 May 99 23:49:06 -1 for latex-l@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de References: X-Mailer: Helldiver 1.08 (Waffle 1.65) Lines: 17 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:49:05 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Martin Schroeder Organization: The Dreaming Subject: Re: Two important new books To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In "Nelson H. F. Beebe" writes: >The second book is the long-awaited definition of PostScript Language >Level 3. While previous editions of several Adobe PostScript books >had a distinctive spine, with red at the top, and white at the bottom, >this new one unfortunately has a black spine, with red and white >lettering, making it harder to spot on a bookshelf. The cover retains >the old red/white style. A PDF-Version (a tiny bit newer then the book) can be found at www.adobe.com and www.pdfzone.com . Best regards Martin -- Martin Schr"oder, martin.schroeder@acm.org Live your life as an exclamation, not an explanation. 18-May-1999 16:43:51-GMT,2435;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA08707 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 10:43:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA28599; Tue, 18 May 1999 18:24:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 431781 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 18 May 1999 18:24:45 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28579 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 18:24:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id RAA23486; Tue, 18 May 1999 17:24:17 +0100 (BST) References: Message-ID: <199905181624.RAA23486@nag.co.uk> Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:24:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: The bugs in the doc package To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: (message from Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= on Tue, 18 May 1999 18:01:01 +0200) In response to your message I just fetched doc.dtx off ctan > 2. There's a typo on code line 395. It reads > |gdef|gtempa there is no occurence of |gdef|g but one of |gdef|@gtempa > 4. Last, and indeed least, the checksum is wrong. I got: * Checksum passed * This is using Package: doc 1999/03/25 v2.0h Standard LaTeX documentation package (FMi) which version do you have? > BTW, has ever a case in which the doc checksum facility correctly detected > that code was missing been recorded? I'm sure Robin can give more details, but that checksum dates from a time when files were usually transmitted by mail, and mail gateways had a habit of turning \ into % and { into space and other horrors that I now try to forget..... David (by the way, latex-l isn't the bug address) 18-May-1999 17:59:21-GMT,4707;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA11354 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 11:59:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA25452; Tue, 18 May 1999 18:01:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 431756 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 18 May 1999 18:01:08 +0200 Received: from mail.math.umu.se (root@abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25429 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 18:01:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by mail.math.umu.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA12273 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 18:01:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id SAA25437 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:01:01 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: The bugs in the doc package To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L I write this because I find it rather remarkable that the bugs in doc.dtx of the last LaTeX release still hasn't been corrected (or at least not the corrections being put on CTAN) a good month and a half after the reports started to arrive. Had it been some other package then maybe it would have been understandable (understaffed as the LaTeX3 project is often claimed to be), but the doc package is so central for code development in the TeX world that I think the negligence tends to being gross. For those of you who hasn't encountered any of these bugs yet, here are the ones I know about (in some cases thanks to the LaTeX bugs database, my acknowledgements to those who reported them): 1. The syntax of \DescribeMacro has been changed; it now reads its argument while having \catcode`\\=12. Primarily this means that the name of the macro described must now be surrounded by { and }, but this has also had the ironic side effect that the doc package documentation is no longer compatible with the doc package! There have been some claims that this is really a feature, and I agree it's not a bad idea per se (even if it makes it a lot harder to write a \DescribeMacro for \{ and \}), but isn't this exactly the kind of feature which should have been added as a new command, instead of through changing an old, especially since it appearently breaks tons of code? 2. There's a typo on code line 395. It reads |gdef|gtempa{#2}% (| has catcode 0 at that point), but should most likely be |gdef|@gtempa{#2}% 3. If a control sequence with an empty name (like \csname\endcsname generates; bug 1 unfortunately makes almost everything become such a control sequence since only the backslash is read) is to go into the index, it causes an error on line 420: \expandafter\@tempb\@gtempa\relax because what is stored in \@gtempa is precisely the macro name and \@tempb is at this point macro: #1#2\relax -> Taking the intended delimiting \relax as #1, \@tempb scans ahead for another and fails miserably. The direct error can be avoided by appending an extra \relax to line 420, but the index entries generated will still become rather weird. 4. Last, and indeed least, the checksum is wrong. BTW, has ever a case in which the doc checksum facility correctly detected that code was missing been recorded? It seems to me that by putting the \Finale in the end of the .dtx file, as is the recommended (by doc.dtx) practice, the very macro which checks the checksum will itself be missing whenever there actually is something missing (due to truncation) which would be noticed on the checksum! Somehow, I don't think that the expected form of a checksum error report is to mention nothing at all about the checksum. Still, I hope it all will be fixed with some speed, now that it has been dragged into the public (?) and all. :-) Lars Hellström 18-May-1999 19:06:05-GMT,2861;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA13567 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 13:04:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA11212; Tue, 18 May 1999 20:51:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 431893 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 18 May 1999 20:51:26 +0200 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11205 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 20:51:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk ([128.232.1.34] helo=cl.cam.ac.uk ident=rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10joxY-0005rZ-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 18 May 1999 19:51:24 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:51:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: The bugs in the doc package To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 May 1999 17:24:17 BST." <199905181624.RAA23486@nag.co.uk> > [problems aren't any more] > This is using > Package: doc 1999/03/25 v2.0h Standard LaTeX documentation package (FMi) > > which version do you have? in the flurry of putting it right (both immediately before -- which didn't work -- and just after the release) i suspect the new doc.dtx wasn't announced :-( > > BTW, has ever a case in which the doc checksum facility correctly detected > > that code was missing been recorded? > > I'm sure Robin can give more details, but that checksum dates from a > time when files were usually transmitted by mail, and mail gateways had > a habit of turning \ into % and { into space and other horrors that I > now try to forget..... checksums (and character tables) certainly evolved back in the daft dead days when ibm mainframes still had a toehold in the world's networks and files lost something in translation into ebcdic and back again. but even now, checksums still have a function ... though not what was originally intended. every so often, we install something on ctan and an eager beaver notices it's wrong ... the first indication being the wrong checksum. it usually means a non-final version has gone out. r 19-May-1999 15:12:14-GMT,3110;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA13446 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:12:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA12685; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:51:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 431662 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:51:39 +0200 Received: from mail.math.umu.se (root@abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12665 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:51:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by mail.math.umu.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21549 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:51:35 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se References: (message from Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= on Tue, 18 May 1999 18:01:01 +0200) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id QAA12673 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:51:35 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: The bugs in the doc package To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199905181624.RAA23486@nag.co.uk> David Carlisle wrote: >In response to your message I just fetched doc.dtx off ctan [snip] >This is using >Package: doc 1999/03/25 v2.0h Standard LaTeX documentation package (FMi) > >which version do you have? Ah, well, it seems I owe you an apology. Appearently, I downloaded v2.0g the very same day it got replaced by v2.0h, my FTP client marked the downloaded file's "last changed" date with the download date, and when I later looked for the fixed version, I mistook it for the one I had, since they were marked by the same date. Bloody stupid mistake, really. But isn't updated files supposed to be listed in the patch file (it didn't say anything about doc.dtx)? [snip] >(by the way, latex-l isn't the bug address) (It wasn't intended as one, although it might have turned out to be something very similar. My reaction was that when bug reports were submitted a month and a half ago, but still nothing has happened, the time for bug reports are over and the time for letters to the editor has come.) Lars Hellström 19-May-1999 15:26:57-GMT,2371;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA13952 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:25:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15338; Wed, 19 May 1999 17:05:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 431688 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 19 May 1999 17:05:56 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15324 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 17:05:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id QAA19292; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:05:25 +0100 (BST) References: (message from Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= on Tue, 18 May 1999 18:01:01 +0200) Message-ID: <199905191505.QAA19292@nag.co.uk> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:05:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: The bugs in the doc package To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: (message from Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= on Wed, 19 May 1999 16:51:35 +0200) > But isn't updated files supposed to be listed in the patch file in a perfect world, yes, sorry:-) > My reaction was that when bug reports were submitted a month and a > half ago but still nothing has happened, the time > for bug reports are over and the time for letters to the editor has come one month of `latex3 time spent handling bug reports' might take a year or more of real elapsed time. This is a spare time hobby you know (well I'm answering this mail from work but I don't work on bug fixes from here) David 19-May-1999 21:29:17-GMT,2636;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA24056 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 15:28:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA16871; Wed, 19 May 1999 23:07:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 431901 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 19 May 1999 23:07:14 +0200 Received: from blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (uucp@blaubaer.kn-bremen.de [134.102.38.17]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16856 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 23:07:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dream.kn-bremen.de (uucp@localhost) by blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with UUCP id WAA08671 for latex-l@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:07:52 +0200 Received: by dream.kn-bremen.de (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 19 May 99 22:54:15 -1 for latex-l@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de References: X-Mailer: Helldiver 1.08 (Waffle 1.65) Lines: 17 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:54:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Martin Schroeder Organization: The Dreaming Subject: Re: The bugs in the doc package To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= writes: >David Carlisle wrote: >>(by the way, latex-l isn't the bug address) >(It wasn't intended as one, although it might have turned out to be >something very similar. My reaction was that when bug reports were >submitted a month and a half ago, but still nothing has happened, the time >for bug reports are over and the time for letters to the editor has come.) Which bugreport do you mean? All regarding those problems are closed. Best regards Martin -- Martin Schr"oder, martin.schroeder@acm.org ^|\bye|| % This is the way the file ends, not with a \bang but a \bye.| Donald E. Knuth, TeXbook.TeX line 18979 20-May-1999 14:54:41-GMT,3032;000000000001 Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA17609 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 08:54:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02359; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:29:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 431396 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:29:03 +0200 Received: from mail.math.umu.se (root@abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02346 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:29:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by mail.math.umu.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00881 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:28:59 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id QAA02348 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:28:57 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: The bugs in the doc package To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Martin Schr"oder wrote: >Which bugreport do you mean? All regarding those problems are closed. I seriously doubt the value of a continued debate about this matter---it is obvious I was wrong, and I have apologized---but since you make a direct question, I suppose I must answer it. Yes, all those (or at least many of them, I see no reason to doubt you in this matter) bug reports are closed, and in the best of all worlds (which we do not live in) this would imply that a fixed version of doc was available. My original contribution was based on the false impression that no fixed version was available, and that no apparent work was being made on making one available either---a state of things that would indicate that something had gone really wrong with the bug report answering. I feel that such a state of things (which in this particular case turned out not to be the true state of things) would constitute legitimate grounds for making the claims I made. I hope we thereby can put an end to this awkward debate. Lars Hellström 5-Jul-1999 13:50:36-GMT,1984;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from tug.org (IDENT:root@tug.org [158.121.106.10]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21135 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:50:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from regulus.informatik.uni-hannover.de (te@regulus.informatik.uni-hannover.de [130.75.26.7]) by tug.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA10276 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:49:25 -0400 Received: (from te@localhost) by regulus.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA29493; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:48:58 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:48:58 +0200 (MET DST) From: Thomas Esser Message-Id: <199907051348.PAA29493@regulus.informatik.uni-hannover.de> To: davidc@nag.co.uk, sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Cc: tex-live@tug.org Subject: Re: Fwd: License to distribute your arabtex package sought > I can see that James C might want to distribute a system called `jade' > or `expat' or whatever with a requirement that you don't mention `James > Clark', but I don't see how you can give a requirement that someone > distributing amstex does not mention the ams as it's part of the system > name, it's rather hard to avoid. > > Having delayed latex for another month wrangling over the wording of > lppl 1.1 I don't think adding another clause to lppl would find favour > today. (Today might possibly be june 1st) If lppl is changed in a way that the author's name of a lppl package must not be mentioned at certain places, that would be a *big* change which should not be done without being thoroughly discussed. My opinion is not to do this change now. One other reason is that lppl should not introduce such kind of change without a strong reason. If lppl does not become stable, people will stop using it for their packages (because they do not know what that license it will be in the future). A much better idea is to release the new LaTeX ASAP... :-) Thomas 16-Aug-1999 21:48:55-GMT,1719;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23194 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:48:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA27316; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:28:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443139 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:28:29 +0200 Received: from downtown.oche.de (root@downtown.oche.de [194.94.253.3]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27306 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:28:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from corona.oche.de (uucp@localhost) by downtown.oche.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id XAA18368 for urz.uni-heidelberg.de!LaTeX-L; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:20:00 +0200 Received: by corona.oche.de (wUUCP 1.10) id <1gnb@corona.oche.de>; Mon, 16 Aug 99 21:11:07 CET X-Mailer: AmiGate 1.6 (13.11.95) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:49:37 CET Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Achim Blumensath Subject: list status? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hello, is this list alive? Achim 31-Aug-1999 6:33:54-GMT,2713;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07081 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:33:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA23037; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:16:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443510 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:16:03 +0200 Received: from mailhost.rug.nl (mailhost.rug.nl [129.125.4.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA23030 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:16:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gladia (actually host gladia.astro.rug.nl) by mailhost.rug.nl with local-SMTP (MMTA); Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:16:05 +0200 X-VMS-To: SMTP%"LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de" X-VMS-Cc: HELBIG Message-ID: <99083108153186@man.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:15:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Phillip Helbig Subject: Re: list status? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L > is this list alive? Yes. Not much traffic lately. What are the prospects for coming up with some standard journal macros, including a BibTeX-style front matter handler, embracing the physical and social sciences and also getting all publishers and editors to encourage their use as well as distribute proper BibTeX files. :) Is there hope for the world? -- Phillip Helbig Email ......... p.helbig@jb.man.ac.uk Nuffield Radio Astronomy Laboratories Tel. ... +44 1477 571 321 (ext. 2635) Jodrell Bank Fax ................ +44 1477 571 618 Macclesfield Telex ................ 36149 JODREL G UK-Cheshire SK11 9DL Web ... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~pjh/ ************************ currently working at ******************************* Kapteyn Instituut Email (above preferred) helbig@astro.rug.nl Rijksuniversiteit Groningen Tel. ...................... +31 50 363 4067 Postbus 800 Fax ....................... +31 50 363 6100 NL-9700 AV Groningen The Netherlands Web ... http://gladia.astro.rug.nl/~helbig/ 31-Aug-1999 9:38:03-GMT,3975;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA10346 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 03:38:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA05269; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:14:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443703 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:14:45 +0200 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk (ns.cityscape.co.uk [194.159.0.5]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05261 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:14:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from angel2.cityscape.co.uk ([194.159.0.17]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Lk2H-0007Uo-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:17:01 +0100 Received: from ku15 (helo=localhost) by angel2.cityscape.co.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Lk51-00045i-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:19:51 +0100 X-Sender: ku15@angel2.cityscape.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:19:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "John Palmer (johnp@bcs.org.uk)" Subject: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <99083108153186@man.ac.uk> This is a very important and good idea. Could you please amplify your idea a little? Several publishers already issue article-classes for specific journals---or for all the journals they publish; as I currently work for one of these publishers (Wiley), I'd be interested to know more about the ways in which this sort of service could be improved. (This is me speaking, not on behalf of Wiley, of course). I've hoped for a long time that all publishers would accept LaTeX-coded articles for any journal, to a common classfile so that authors don't have to change their practices for different journals or publishers. Is that your general aim? Regards John Palmer 69 St Cross Road, Winchester SO23 9RE, England +44 1962 865261 johnp@bcs.org.uk On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Phillip Helbig wrote: > > is this list alive? > > Yes. Not much traffic lately. > > What are the prospects for coming up with some standard journal macros, > including a BibTeX-style front matter handler, embracing the physical > and social sciences and also getting all publishers and editors to > encourage their use as well as distribute proper BibTeX files. > > :) > > Is there hope for the world? > > > -- > Phillip Helbig Email ......... p.helbig@jb.man.ac.uk > Nuffield Radio Astronomy Laboratories Tel. ... +44 1477 571 321 (ext. 2635) > Jodrell Bank Fax ................ +44 1477 571 618 > Macclesfield Telex ................ 36149 JODREL G > UK-Cheshire SK11 9DL Web ... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~pjh/ > > ************************ currently working at ******************************* > > Kapteyn Instituut Email (above preferred) helbig@astro.rug.nl > Rijksuniversiteit Groningen Tel. ...................... +31 50 363 4067 > Postbus 800 Fax ....................... +31 50 363 6100 > NL-9700 AV Groningen > The Netherlands Web ... http://gladia.astro.rug.nl/~helbig/ > 31-Aug-1999 10:03:13-GMT,3130;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA10794 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:03:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA06986; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:34:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443727 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:34:00 +0200 Received: from mailhost.rug.nl (mailhost.rug.nl [129.125.4.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA06978 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:33:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gladia (actually host gladia.astro.rug.nl) by mailhost.rug.nl with local-SMTP (MMTA); Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:34:03 +0200 X-VMS-To: SMTP%"LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de" X-VMS-Cc: HELBIG Message-ID: <99083111313727@man.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:31:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Phillip Helbig Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L > This is a very important and good idea. > > Could you please amplify your idea a little? The smiley referred to the fact that when I broached this topic a couple of years ago, a VERY long thread with probably over a thousand messages was generated---lively times indeed. I've been very occupied with other stuff recently, but am interested in whether there has been any progress. No need to repeat the discussion but perhaps some guru could provide an executive summary and progress report. Certainly Astronomy & Astrophysics is progressive in other respects (hey, they support 2e and all the packages) so perhaps there is hope other journals will catch up. This morning I got the latest proofs via email as a PDF file. That's progress in some sense as well! -- Phillip Helbig Email ......... p.helbig@jb.man.ac.uk Nuffield Radio Astronomy Laboratories Tel. ... +44 1477 571 321 (ext. 2635) Jodrell Bank Fax ................ +44 1477 571 618 Macclesfield Telex ................ 36149 JODREL G UK-Cheshire SK11 9DL Web ... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~pjh/ ************************ currently working at ******************************* Kapteyn Instituut Email (above preferred) helbig@astro.rug.nl Rijksuniversiteit Groningen Tel. ...................... +31 50 363 4067 Postbus 800 Fax ....................... +31 50 363 6100 NL-9700 AV Groningen The Netherlands Web ... http://gladia.astro.rug.nl/~helbig/ 31-Aug-1999 11:45:55-GMT,2553;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA12699 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 05:45:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA20194; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:26:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443906 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:26:21 +0200 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk (ns.cityscape.co.uk [194.159.0.5]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20187 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:26:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from angel2.cityscape.co.uk ([194.159.0.17]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Lm5V-00031M-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 12:28:29 +0100 Received: from ku15 (helo=localhost) by angel2.cityscape.co.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Lm8E-0004Co-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 12:31:18 +0100 X-Sender: ku15@angel2.cityscape.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 12:31:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "John Palmer (johnp@bcs.org.uk)" Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <99083111313727@man.ac.uk> On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Phillip Helbig wrote: > The smiley referred to the fact that when I broached this topic a couple > of years ago, a VERY long thread with probably over a thousand messages > was generated---lively times indeed. I've been very occupied with other > stuff recently, but am interested in whether there has been any > progress. > > No need to repeat the discussion but perhaps some guru could provide an > executive summary and progress report. I support that proposal. Regards John Palmer 69 St Cross Road, Winchester SO23 9RE, England +44 1962 865261 johnp@bcs.org.uk 31-Aug-1999 13:41:09-GMT,2772;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15180 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 07:41:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA00369; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:17:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444008 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:17:47 +0200 Received: from alpha.ntp.springer.de (alpha.ntp.springer.de [192.129.24.9]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00362 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:17:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE by ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE (PMDF V5.2-32 #35169) id <01JFF6Q0OT8W00076H@ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE> for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:18:58 CE X-VMS-To: IN%"LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE" X-VMS-Cc: @TEX MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <01JFF6Q0OW2Q00076H@ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:18:57 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Joerg Knappen Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Phillip Helbig schrieb: > What are the prospects for coming up with some standard journal macros, > including a BibTeX-style front matter handler, embracing the physical > and social sciences and also getting all publishers and editors to > encourage their use as well as distribute proper BibTeX files. We (i. e. Jens Kloecker, Michael Piotrowski, Frank Holzwarth and JKn) want to develop a standard _scientific article_ class in a BOF session at EuroTeX99 to be hold in Heidelberg from September 20--24. We want to emphasize the idea of a document class as a markup language. The rendering of the article will of course follow different styles for each publisher (and even vary from journal to journal with the same publisher). In fact, front matter and bibliography are our two main targets in the design of this class. We hope to come up with a new class usable with different publishers. J"org Knappen Electronic Technologies Springer-Verlag Heidelberg ===> EuroTeX99: http://uk.tug.org/EuroTeX-99/ <=== 31-Aug-1999 14:23:56-GMT,2884;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16359 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:23:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05848; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:06:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444105 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:06:36 +0200 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05833 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:06:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23530 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15210 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <199908311406.KAA15210@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:06:35 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Joerg Knappen writes: > Phillip Helbig schrieb: > > > What are the prospects for coming up with some standard journal macros, [snip] > We (i. e. Jens Kloecker, Michael Piotrowski, Frank Holzwarth and JKn) > want to develop a standard _scientific article_ class in a BOF session > at EuroTeX99 to be hold in Heidelberg from September 20--24. > > We want to emphasize the idea of a document class as a markup > language. Don't you really want an SGML language (formally, "application") that admits down-translation to LaTeX? There's absolutely no reason why you cannot have a markup user interface (MUI) for it that has the look and feel of LaTeX. The point is that not only do you get the down-translation for print in LaTeX but also you can write (in the programming language of your choice) translators to whatever other formats you wish to reach. (Of course, very clever things in this direction have been done using TeX, the program, but I suspect that there is a limit to this approach.) -- Bill 31-Aug-1999 14:37:35-GMT,2675;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16725 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:37:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA06783; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:16:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444113 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:16:13 +0200 Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06774 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:16:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from MAURITIUS (p13.tc1.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.14]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03496; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:16:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990831101459.0181aac0@tiac.net> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:16:03 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Y&Y Help Line Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199908311406.KAA15210@hilbert.math.albany.edu> At 10:06 AM 8/31/99 -0400, William F. Hammond wrote: >Don't you really want an SGML language (formally, "application") that >admits down-translation to LaTeX? There's absolutely no reason why >you cannot have a markup user interface (MUI) for it that has the look >and feel of LaTeX. > >The point is that not only do you get the down-translation for print >in LaTeX but also you can write (in the programming language of your >choice) translators to whatever other formats you wish to reach. (Of >course, very clever things in this direction have been done using TeX, >the program, but I suspect that there is a limit to this approach.) > > -- Bill Maybe Springer is learning from Elsevier Sciences mistakes. They focused on SGML for years --- and look what happened to *their* share prices :0! -- Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com (M) 31-Aug-1999 14:48:31-GMT,4146;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17038 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:48:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA07563; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:25:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444127 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:25:57 +0200 Received: from mailhost.rug.nl (mailhost.rug.nl [129.125.4.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA07556 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:25:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gladia (actually host gladia.astro.rug.nl) by mailhost.rug.nl with local-SMTP (MMTA); Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:25:58 +0200 X-VMS-To: SMTP%"LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de" X-VMS-Cc: KNAPPEN@ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE,HELBIG Message-ID: <99083116141070@man.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:14:10 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Phillip Helbig Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hi J"org, > Phillip Helbig schrieb: > > > What are the prospects for coming up with some standard journal macros, > > including a BibTeX-style front matter handler, embracing the physical > > and social sciences and also getting all publishers and editors to > > encourage their use as well as distribute proper BibTeX files. > > We (i. e. Jens Kloecker, Michael Piotrowski, Frank Holzwarth and JKn) > want to develop a standard _scientific article_ class in a BOF session > at EuroTeX99 to be hold in Heidelberg from September 20--24. > J"org Knappen > Electronic Technologies > Springer-Verlag Heidelberg Nice to see someone from Springer involved (how long have you been there?) (and using VMS at that:). It is becoming obvious even in the UK now that A&A has really overtaken MNRAS in terms of `sensible modernity' in the publishing arena; hopefully this trend will continue at Springer and other journals will follow suit in a very compatible manner. > We want to emphasize the idea of a document class as a markup > language. The rendering of the article will of course follow > different styles for each publisher (and even vary from journal > to journal with the same publisher). In fact, front matter and > bibliography are our two main targets in the design of this class. > We hope to come up with a new class usable with different publishers. This is looking really concrete! Great! What are your thoughts on using straight BibTeX 1.0? How strictly will the front-matter stuff adhere to a BibTeX-like scheme? (Didn't David Carlisle once do some stuff in this area)? It seems it would be a good idea to air some more detailed sketches about what you have in mind, primarily in terms of goals but also in terms of implementation. -- Phillip Helbig Email ......... p.helbig@jb.man.ac.uk Nuffield Radio Astronomy Laboratories Tel. ... +44 1477 571 321 (ext. 2635) Jodrell Bank Fax ................ +44 1477 571 618 Macclesfield Telex ................ 36149 JODREL G UK-Cheshire SK11 9DL Web ... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~pjh/ ************************ currently working at ******************************* Kapteyn Instituut Email (above preferred) helbig@astro.rug.nl Rijksuniversiteit Groningen Tel. ...................... +31 50 363 4067 Postbus 800 Fax ....................... +31 50 363 6100 NL-9700 AV Groningen The Netherlands Web ... http://gladia.astro.rug.nl/~helbig/ 31-Aug-1999 14:59:56-GMT,3145;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17292 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:59:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA07547; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:25:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444124 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:25:46 +0200 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk (ns.cityscape.co.uk [194.159.0.5]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA07539 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:25:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from angel2.cityscape.co.uk ([194.159.0.17]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11LotA-0007B6-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:27:56 +0100 Received: from ku15 (helo=localhost) by angel2.cityscape.co.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Lovt-0004NB-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:30:45 +0100 X-Sender: ku15@angel2.cityscape.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:30:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "John Palmer (johnp@bcs.org.uk)" Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <01JFF6Q0OW2Q00076H@ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE> Bravo! I'm sorry but I think it extremely unlikely that I shall get to Heidelberg; so may I ask my question in advance? What co-operation do you need from publishers to make this work and be generally accepted? (For, if you need such support, I think it's for those of us who work in publishing to try to get our respective companies to play the game with you.) I wish your project great success! Regards John Palmer 69 St Cross Road, Winchester SO23 9RE, England +44 1962 865261 johnp@bcs.org.uk On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Joerg Knappen wrote: > We (i. e. Jens Kloecker, Michael Piotrowski, Frank Holzwarth and JKn) > want to develop a standard _scientific article_ class in a BOF session > at EuroTeX99 to be hold in Heidelberg from September 20--24. > > We want to emphasize the idea of a document class as a markup > language. The rendering of the article will of course follow > different styles for each publisher (and even vary from journal > to journal with the same publisher). In fact, front matter and > bibliography are our two main targets in the design of this class. > > We hope to come up with a new class usable with different publishers. 31-Aug-1999 14:59:54-GMT,2243;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17294 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:59:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA08713; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:39:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444140 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:39:07 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08704 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:39:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id PAA14816; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:36:41 +0100 (BST) References: <99083116141070@man.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199908311436.PAA14816@nag.co.uk> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:36:41 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <99083116141070@man.ac.uk> (message from Phillip Helbig on Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:14:10 +0100) People might like to look at the revtex4 beta release (for which I was somewhat to blame). This has rather extensive support for frontmatter and bibliography handling, trying to provide consistent markup for the author, but radically different presentation styles for various journals. It would be simpler to implement such a scheme using the proposed interface for latex classes described in the carlisle/mittelbach/rowley talk at tug99, the slides for which (pdf) were handed in to the conference organisers and so should be appearing on the www.tug.org/tug99 site sometime soon (I hope) David 31-Aug-1999 15:02:10-GMT,2686;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17327 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:01:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA09095; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:42:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444149 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:42:45 +0200 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk (ns.cityscape.co.uk [194.159.0.5]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09069 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:42:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from angel2.cityscape.co.uk ([194.159.0.17]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Lp9h-0007X9-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:45:01 +0100 Received: from ku15 (helo=localhost) by angel2.cityscape.co.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11LpCR-0004Pi-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:47:51 +0100 X-Sender: ku15@angel2.cityscape.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:47:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "John Palmer (johnp@bcs.org.uk)" Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990831101459.0181aac0@tiac.net> I don't want to get into a LaTeX v. SGML controversy. I think that the project of J"org and associates is important because [1] in the short and medium term it is easier to get authors to write LaTeX than to write SGML; and [2] if SGML is ever to have the acceptability with authors that LaTeX already has, publishers will need to agree on a common DTD; and [3] a common LaTeX class may be a step on the way to that. John Palmer 69 St Cross Road, Winchester SO23 9RE, England +44 1962 865261 johnp@bcs.org.uk On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Y&Y Help Line wrote: > Maybe Springer is learning from Elsevier Sciences mistakes. They focused > on SGML for years --- and look what happened to *their* share prices :0! 31-Aug-1999 15:17:40-GMT,3291;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17779 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:17:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA09516; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:47:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444157 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:47:02 +0200 Received: from na.uni-tuebingen.de (root@na.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.161.64]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09508 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:47:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from uni-tuebingen.de (na6 [134.2.161.170]) by na.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15564 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:47:15 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01JFF6Q0OW2Q00076H@ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <37CBEAF2.5724659B@uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:47:14 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Marcel Oliver Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Joerg Knappen wrote: > We (i. e. Jens Kloecker, Michael Piotrowski, Frank Holzwarth and JKn) > want to develop a standard _scientific article_ class in a BOF session > at EuroTeX99 to be hold in Heidelberg from September 20--24. This is very encouraging! I think besides the implementation issues, it would be very useful if there would be a document of the sort "Preparing articles for direct electronic submission" as a standard reference. Individual publishers could contribute short appendices for those requirements that are unique to their journals. Could someone put a draft (if it exists) on the web, so that it will be possible to make concrete suggestions? I would be very willing to help out in this respect, either by sending in comments or by co-ordinating some of this. "William F. Hammond" wrote: > Don't you really want an SGML language (formally, "application") that > admits down-translation to LaTeX? There's absolutely no reason why > you cannot have a markup user interface (MUI) for it that has the look > and feel of LaTeX. I remember a loooong discussion on this. I think that the usefulness to effort ratio did not really convince people to commit to this... On the other hand, the submission guidelines could be drafted under the assumption that the back-end is not necessarily LaTeX, and thus the file should be processable as good as reasonably possible by filters that do not operate on the level of TeX. Marcel 31-Aug-1999 15:24:19-GMT,2657;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17954 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:24:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA11331; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:09:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444181 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:09:18 +0200 Received: from mailhost.rug.nl (mailhost.rug.nl [129.125.4.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA11322 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:09:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gladia (actually host gladia.astro.rug.nl) by mailhost.rug.nl with local-SMTP (MMTA); Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:09:32 +0200 X-VMS-To: SMTP%"LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de" X-VMS-Cc: HELBIG Message-ID: <99083117085995@man.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:09:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Phillip Helbig Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Something which should not be overlooked is support for user-defined macros, which is often not allowed at present for various reasons (conflict with other macros (see the renew/provide/overwrite/new/whatevercommand discussion), inability to be handled by (bad?) LaTeX-to-HTML converters, etc. -- Phillip Helbig Email ......... p.helbig@jb.man.ac.uk Nuffield Radio Astronomy Laboratories Tel. ... +44 1477 571 321 (ext. 2635) Jodrell Bank Fax ................ +44 1477 571 618 Macclesfield Telex ................ 36149 JODREL G UK-Cheshire SK11 9DL Web ... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~pjh/ ************************ currently working at ******************************* Kapteyn Instituut Email (above preferred) helbig@astro.rug.nl Rijksuniversiteit Groningen Tel. ...................... +31 50 363 4067 Postbus 800 Fax ....................... +31 50 363 6100 NL-9700 AV Groningen The Netherlands Web ... http://gladia.astro.rug.nl/~helbig/ 1-Sep-1999 10:27:06-GMT,2227;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA15563 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 04:27:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA01131; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:53:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443689 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:53:38 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01089 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:53:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id KAA20626; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:50:39 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <199909010950.KAA20626@nag.co.uk> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:50:39 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: TUG99 talk To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Yesterday I mentioned the slides of the talk we gave on a new interface for latex class designers at TUG99. The slides are now available from the latex project web site http://www.latex-project.org/talks/tug99.pdf and also from the TUG99 website http://www.tug.org/TUG99-web/pdf/carlisle.pdf http://www.tug.org/TUG99-web/pdf/mittelbach.pdf http://www.tug.org/TUG99-web/pdf/rowley2.pdf (all four of these URL lead to the same document) Please note that this document was intended as informal `speaker notes' for our own use. We decided to make them available (the speaker notes as well as the slides that were presented) as several people requested copies after the talk. However they are _not_ in `polished' copyedited format intended for publication. David 1-Sep-1999 15:48:20-GMT,2446;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22868 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:48:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA05272; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:22:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444118 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:22:36 +0200 Received: from technix.oeh.uni-linz.ac.at (hwolf@technix.oeh.uni-linz.ac.at [140.78.254.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05264 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:22:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (hwolf@localhost) by technix.oeh.uni-linz.ac.at (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA06582 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:19:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:19:41 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Wolfgang Huber Subject: Re: TUG99 talk To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909010950.KAA20626@nag.co.uk> Hi David! On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, David Carlisle wrote: > > Please note that this document was intended as informal `speaker notes' > for our own use. We decided to make them available (the speaker notes as > well as the slides that were presented) as several people requested > copies after the talk. However they are _not_ in `polished' copyedited > format intended for publication. > Now that I've looked at your talk I tasted blood. How about releasing your interface in the experimental-directory ? Your css-like approach to style-things seems to open new ways towards publishing a document on paper and on the web, likeways. I hope, you release the LaTeX2e* before the next official LaTeX2e-Release! Bye, Wolfgang 1-Sep-1999 16:14:31-GMT,2074;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23564 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:14:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07702; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:58:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444155 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:58:23 +0200 Received: from heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk (exim@heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.32.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07692 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:58:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk ([128.232.1.34] helo=cl.cam.ac.uk ident=rf) by heaton.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.01 #1) id 11MCmV-0006ZN-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:58:39 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:58:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: TUG99 talk To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:19:41 +0200." Wolfgang Huber wrote: > Now that I've looked at your talk I tasted blood. How about releasing your > interface in the experimental-directory ? it's nice, isn't it? the slides do say it'll be available by year end. we can always delay 1999/12/01 until after the new stuff is on the archive, if you like... robin 5-Sep-1999 23:17:00-GMT,2844;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12539 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:16:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA27822; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 00:51:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443508 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 00:51:44 +0200 Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail1.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.1]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA27815 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 00:51:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11Nl8w-0000Ui-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:52:14 +0100 Received: from max58.public.ox.ac.uk ([192.76.27.58] helo=ogre ident=rahtz) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Nl8v-0006Ls-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:52:14 +0100 X-Mailer: 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 8 Q); VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4.2.0.58.19990831101459.0181aac0@tiac.net> Message-ID: <14290.62189.842084.18205@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:47:09 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: John Palmer (johnp@bcs.org.uk) writes: > [1] in the short and medium term it is easier to get authors to write > LaTeX than to write SGML; and about a million times easier again to get them to write in Word, as 99% of them probably do :-} > and [2] if SGML is ever to have the > acceptability with authors that LaTeX already has authors in an extremely limited environment > publishers will > need to agree on a common DTD; Docbook and TEI not good enough? mind you, I applaud Jorg's suggestion. it may not change the world, but getting LaTeX's house in order must be a good thing. Sebastian 6-Sep-1999 9:19:40-GMT,2365;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA24955 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 03:19:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA16184; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:57:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443831 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:57:33 +0200 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk (ns.cityscape.co.uk [194.159.0.5]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16168 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:57:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from angel2.cityscape.co.uk ([194.159.0.17]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11NudD-000622-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:00:07 +0100 Received: from ku15 (helo=localhost) by angel2.cityscape.co.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Nufy-0002d8-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:02:58 +0100 X-Sender: ku15@angel2.cityscape.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:02:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "John Palmer (johnp@bcs.org.uk)" Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14290.62189.842084.18205@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> I wrote: > > publishers will need to agree on a common DTD; On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Docbook and TEI not good enough? I'm pretty new to publishing; but the two publishers I've worked for each have their own peculiar DTD for journal articles. Where's the standardisation? John Palmer 69 St Cross Road, Winchester SO23 9RE, England +44 1962 865261 johnp@bcs.org.uk > 6-Sep-1999 9:30:59-GMT,2676;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA25208 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 03:30:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA16684; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:03:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443840 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:03:02 +0200 Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail1.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.1]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16675 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:03:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11NugW-0007MU-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:03:32 +0100 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17] ident=rahtz) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11NugV-0007Ug-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:03:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <14290.62189.842084.18205@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.73 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14291.36977.35408.636406@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:59:13 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: John Palmer (johnp@bcs.org.uk) writes: > > I'm pretty new to publishing; but the two publishers I've worked for each > have their own peculiar DTD for journal articles. Where's the > standardisation? > two answers: a) we were talking about the future, not the present b) direct tag compatibility is not so important in the {X,SG}ML world, as transformation is well understood and practised. the same data has to be present, but not in the same place....(shades of Eric Morecambe) Sebastian 6-Sep-1999 14:59:17-GMT,3254;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01797 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 08:59:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA16906; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:29:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444146 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:29:26 +0200 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16899 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:29:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26748 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01571 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <199909061429.KAA01571@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:29:46 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Sebastian Rahtz writes: > John Palmer (johnp@bcs.org.uk) writes: > > > [1] in the short and medium term it is easier to get authors to write > > LaTeX than to write SGML; > > and about a million times easier again to get them to write in Word, > as 99% of them probably do :-} > > > and [2] if SGML is ever to have the > > acceptability with authors that LaTeX already has > > authors in an extremely limited environment It is possible to fool ourselves into thinking that we are writing LaTeX when we are really writing SGML. The notion of "document class" that J\"org proposes could be essentially an SGML language (formally "application") disguised as LaTeX. (But I do not know if that is what he has in mind.) > > publishers will > > need to agree on a common DTD; > Docbook and TEI not good enough? Is the dockbook model for "author" adequate? Some things like this may be both more and less than what we would want. Do either provide enough hooks for math? William F. Hammond Dept. of Mathematics & Statistics 518-442-4625 The University at Albany hammond@math.albany.edu Albany, NY 12222 (U.S.A.) http://math.albany.edu:8000/~hammond/ Dept. FAX: 518-442-4731 Never trust an SGML/XML vendor whose web page is not valid HTML. And always support affirmative action on behalf of the finite places. 6-Sep-1999 15:04:56-GMT,2573;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01909 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:04:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA17758; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:41:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444159 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:41:00 +0200 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17743 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:40:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27144 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01657 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <199909061441.KAA01657@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:41:08 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L > >The point is that not only do you get the down-translation for print > >in LaTeX but also you can write (in the programming language of your > >choice) translators to whatever other formats you wish to reach. (Of > >course, very clever things in this direction have been done using TeX, > >the program, but I suspect that there is a limit to this approach.) > > Maybe Springer is learning from Elsevier Sciences mistakes. They focused > on SGML for years --- and look what happened to *their* share prices :0! > -- > Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com (M) Is the writer who I think he is? Those translators could even be written in lisp. :-) In fact, I may even go that way myself eventually. -- Bill 6-Sep-1999 15:10:05-GMT,2877;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02026 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:10:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA19109; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:57:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444169 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:57:56 +0200 Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19079 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:57:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from MAURITIUS (p52.tc1.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.75.53]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15389 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:57:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990906105409.01c45d18@tiac.net> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:56:07 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Y&Y Support Line Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909061441.KAA01657@hilbert.math.albany.edu> At 10:41 AM 1999-09-06 -0400, you wrote: > > >The point is that not only do you get the down-translation for print > > >in LaTeX but also you can write (in the programming language of your > > >choice) translators to whatever other formats you wish to reach. (Of > > >course, very clever things in this direction have been done using TeX, > > >the program, but I suspect that there is a limit to this approach.) > > > > Maybe Springer is learning from Elsevier Sciences mistakes. They focused > > on SGML for years --- and look what happened to *their* share prices :0! > > -- > > Y&Y, Inc. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com (M) > >Is the writer who I think he is? Yes, sorry, I forgot to switch persona (i.e. Eudora signature file) when I got on the machine. >Those translators could even be written in lisp. :-) As in http://cseng.awl.com/bookpage.taf?ISBN=0-201-08319-1&ptype=0&catid=&navmin=& ctype=author&catpage=&seriesid= :-) >In fact, I may even go that way myself eventually. Regards, Berthold. -- Berthold Horn mailto:bkph@YandY.com 6-Sep-1999 16:03:01-GMT,2820;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03143 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:02:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA24897; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:49:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444229 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:48:59 +0200 Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail4.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24890 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:48:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11O11O-0003cB-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:49:30 +0100 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17] ident=rahtz) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11O11N-0000LH-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:49:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199909061429.KAA01571@hilbert.math.albany.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.73 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14291.61335.34254.496975@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:45:11 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909061429.KAA01571@hilbert.math.albany.edu> William F. Hammond writes: > It is possible to fool ourselves into thinking that we are writing > LaTeX when we are really writing SGML. > now you are talking.... > > Docbook and TEI not good enough? > > Is the dockbook model for "author" adequate? Some things like this > may be both more and less than what we would want. it is an interesting issue of whether a long-established DTD like the TEI has enough markup to describe a 100-author CERN physics paper. I'd be curious to see the results. > Do either provide enough hooks for math? TEI and Docbook are both extensible, so on just plugs in MathML and pray for namespace support (somehow, the mathml people thought it was amusing to have "" in their element set) Sebastian 6-Sep-1999 16:12:07-GMT,1912;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03367 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:12:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA26992; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:59:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444254 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:59:38 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA26957 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:59:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id QAA17588; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:56:43 +0100 (BST) References: <199909061429.KAA01571@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <14291.61335.34254.496975@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199909061556.QAA17588@nag.co.uk> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:56:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14291.61335.34254.496975@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> (message from Sebastian Rahtz on Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:45:11 +0000) > (somehow, the mathml people thought it was > amusing to have "" in their element set) As long as it keeps them happy (whoever they are) who are we to complain? David 6-Sep-1999 16:56:37-GMT,2554;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04370 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:56:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA29456; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:30:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444277 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:30:32 +0200 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA29448 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:30:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from boole.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 6 Sep 1999 17:30:58 +0100 (BST) References: <4.2.0.58.19990831101459.0181aac0@tiac.net> <14290.62189.842084.18205@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Message-ID: <19990906173057.B9313@boole.maths.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:30:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Timothy Murphy Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14290.62189.842084.18205@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk>; from Sebastian Rahtz on Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 11:47:09PM +0100 On Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 11:47:09PM +0100, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > John Palmer (johnp@bcs.org.uk) writes: > > > [1] in the short and medium term it is easier to get authors to write > > LaTeX than to write SGML; > > and about a million times easier again to get them to write in Word, > as 99% of them probably do :-} I assumed that these "standard journal macros" were aimed mainly at mathematical (or at least scientific) journals? I have never seen a research article in mathematics written in Word. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 6-Sep-1999 17:05:38-GMT,3843;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04630 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:05:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA01136; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:53:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444294 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:53:43 +0200 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01119 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:53:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02090 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 12:53:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02503 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 12:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <199909061653.MAA02503@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 12:53:34 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Sebastian Rahtz writes: > William F. Hammond writes: > > It is possible to fool ourselves into thinking that we are writing > > LaTeX when we are really writing SGML. > > > now you are talking.... (Haven't I been talking this way for a year now?) > it is an interesting issue of whether a long-established DTD like the > TEI has enough markup to describe a 100-author CERN physics paper. I'd > be curious to see the results. In this TEI would be a transformation target, of course. > > Do either provide enough hooks for math? > > TEI and Docbook are both extensible, so on just plugs in MathML and > pray for namespace support We will need to control our own public namespace for use in areas that lack temperature control, and we will want it to feel like the existing LaTeX namespace even though it may contain some new names and may lack some old names (unless we mount Herculean efforts to accommodate all old names). Customized inhouse languages will keep us all happy as long as we are able to translate to the public thing. > (somehow, the mathml people thought it was > amusing to have "" in their element set) The constituency of math journal authors will only support rich enough markup for bulletproof formatting to MathML as *an option*. So MathML is not the right thing to merge with either DocBook or TEI (not that I have looked very closely at either). The markup should be flexible enough to accommodate lazy authors and rich enough to support those who care about down-translation with MathML support. William F. Hammond Dept. of Mathematics & Statistics 518-442-4625 The University at Albany hammond@math.albany.edu Albany, NY 12222 (U.S.A.) http://math.albany.edu:8000/~hammond/ Dept. FAX: 518-442-4731 Never trust an SGML/XML vendor whose web page is not valid HTML. And always support affirmative action on behalf of the finite places. 6-Sep-1999 21:05:17-GMT,2591;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10228 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:04:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA05077; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:52:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444433 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:52:00 +0200 Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail4.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05051 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:51:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11O5kc-0007Wn-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:52:30 +0100 Received: from max18.public.ox.ac.uk ([192.76.27.18] helo=ogre ident=rahtz) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11O5kb-0006VG-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:52:29 +0100 X-Mailer: 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 8 Q); VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4.2.0.58.19990831101459.0181aac0@tiac.net> <14290.62189.842084.18205@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <19990906173057.B9313@boole.maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: <14292.6707.940905.314330@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:46:59 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19990906173057.B9313@boole.maths.tcd.ie> Timothy Murphy writes: > I assumed that these "standard journal macros" were aimed mainly > at mathematical (or at least scientific) journals? why this perpetual aim of getting LaTeX tied into a tiny tiny corner of the world? is that all its good for? sebastian 7-Sep-1999 10:19:24-GMT,3114;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA26613 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 04:19:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA17159; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:53:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443712 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:53:52 +0200 Received: from ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.232.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA17135 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:53:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01457 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:54:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id LAA11221; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:55:28 +0200 (MET DST) References: <4.2.0.58.19990831101459.0181aac0@tiac.net> <14290.62189.842084.18205@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <19990906173057.B9313@boole.maths.tcd.ie> <14292.6707.940905.314330@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199909070955.LAA11221@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:55:28 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14292.6707.940905.314330@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Concernant « Re: Standard journal macros », Sebastian Rahtz écrit : « » Timothy Murphy writes: » > I assumed that these "standard journal macros" were aimed mainly » > at mathematical (or at least scientific) journals? » » why this perpetual aim of getting LaTeX tied into a tiny tiny corner » of the world? is that all its good for? Because it's sooo much simpler to look only to the corner for which no other solution than yours are needed? Isn't that anyway exactly the kind of science maths are? I know of many areas of maths (including didactics -- they have a Math. Class. number) where tex is not used. Moreover, most papers we get here from senior mathematicians are in some fashion of plain. In fact, the only area where latex is really growing is high school text books! Thierry Bouche, Grenoble. 7-Sep-1999 14:13:04-GMT,3132;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01691 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:12:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA20131; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:47:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444476 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:47:06 +0200 Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail4.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20115 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:47:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11OLb1-0003hR-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:47:39 +0100 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17] ident=rahtz) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11OLb0-0002DR-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:47:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4.2.0.58.19990831101459.0181aac0@tiac.net> <14290.62189.842084.18205@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <19990906173057.B9313@boole.maths.tcd.ie> <14292.6707.940905.314330@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <199909070955.LAA11221@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.73 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14293.9352.494883.798613@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:43:20 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909070955.LAA11221@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> In the excitement of arguing about *ML, I forgot a very important point, which is that the LaTeX team have been working on a new front matter markup. For those of you who were not at the TUG meeting, the LaTeX team previewed a number of very exciting things which they expect to release within the next 6 months; perhaps the front matter markup has been forgotten in the excitement. I do hope that Jorg et al will not start off on a new direction of markup, just when the core system is about to have radical improvements. Sebastian PS I must add (publicly) that for the first time in years, I am feeling that LaTeX has a future. Thanks for Frank, David and Chris for inspiring talks at TUG 99. If you haven't checked their slides, do so. Stirring stuff. 7-Sep-1999 14:17:58-GMT,2440;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01805 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:17:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA20846; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:56:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444485 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:56:51 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20819 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:56:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id OAA21160; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:54:15 +0100 (BST) References: <4.2.0.58.19990831101459.0181aac0@tiac.net> <14290.62189.842084.18205@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <19990906173057.B9313@boole.maths.tcd.ie> <14292.6707.940905.314330@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <199909070955.LAA11221@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <14293.9352.494883.798613@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199909071354.OAA21160@nag.co.uk> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:54:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14293.9352.494883.798613@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> (message from Sebastian Rahtz on Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:43:20 +0000) > the LaTeX team previewed a number of very exciting things which they > expect to release within the next 6 months; perhaps the front matter > markup has been forgotten in the excitement. Building the frontmatter support up from the sketch in those slides to something that could be publicly distributed is currently something under `active progress' (Just ask Joanna when she last saw me:-) David 7-Sep-1999 21:27:29-GMT,6793;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14159 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:27:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA23693; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:58:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444849 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:58:47 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23683 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:58:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin405.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.105]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27726 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:59:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00530; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:04:04 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <4.2.0.58.19990831101459.0181aac0@tiac.net> <14290.62189.842084.18205@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <19990906173057.B9313@boole.maths.tcd.ie> <14292.6707.940905.314330@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <199909070955.LAA11221@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> <14293.9352.494883.798613@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199909071904.VAA00530@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:04:04 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Standard journal macros + TUG 99 talk To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14293.9352.494883.798613@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian writes: > PS I must add (publicly) that for the first time in years, I am feeling that > LaTeX has a future. Thanks for Frank, David and Chris for inspiring > talks at TUG 99. If you haven't checked their slides, do so. Stirring > stuff. thanks Sebastian for your kind words. they are worth a frame aren't they? :-) more seriously, i'm personally quite enthusiastic about the work undertaken in the last year or so (despite trying to raise twins and all that) and i too see and hope for a positive future of LaTeX with a design interface as it is currently taking shape. perhaps i should say that all of what we presented in Vancouver in larger detail (as given in the slides) is actually existing work (and not dreamware or whitepapers) which we plan to make available real soon to a larger audience for discussion and final shaping. Since i hope that we do get some more substancial discussions on that i would like to repeat the info about the location of the speakers notes we put on the web (especially as our web site is currently being changed and doesn't contain a visible link to it) The slides are now available from the latex project web site http://www.latex-project.org/talks/tug99.pdf and also from the TUG99 website http://www.tug.org/TUG99-web/pdf/carlisle.pdf http://www.tug.org/TUG99-web/pdf/mittelbach.pdf http://www.tug.org/TUG99-web/pdf/rowley2.pdf (all four of these URL lead to the same document) ------------ i regret to have to report that the slides do not give much detail on frontmatter syntax but a lot on the more general mechanisms we want to employ in a (first time) LaTeX interface to class design. the main reason is that for the front matter design (in contrast to other bits) we currently only have a prototype interface that was designed to work with an earlier version of the interface which we abandoned. However, as David said in a reply under this subject he is currently working night-shifts to convert and redesign the original proto-type using the new interface and i expect results soon. To answer Wolfgang Huber questions: (under TUG99 talk subject): > Now that I've looked at your talk I tasted blood. How about releasing your > interface in the experimental-directory ? actually not at this point in time as i don't necessarily want to see the current state of the interface ending up on CD-roms necessarily. my main argument is that while the general mechanisms of the various interfaces we propose seems to be fine there is a lot of detail to attend which will eventually result in small to large interface changes (as an example for those who have already looked at the slides or seen the talks given at TUG99: on xparse for example David just convinced me that the return of parsing coordinate pairs in LaTeX should be a single brace group like {{x-val}{y-val}} rather than two groups, ie {x-val}{y-val}. This is a small and in some sense unimportant detail but a large change to the interface as far as coding and using it is concerned. So rather than putting it out on experimental (where i guess it might show up for 99/12 (whenever this happens :-)) my suggestion is to put it up bits by bits on our web site www.latex-project.org for now; together with a hopefully lively discussion on the important aspects of the current part under disucssion. so my plan would be to start putting things up real soon. meaning probably after next weekend, starting with the xparse interface, followed by the template interface (where more documentation is needed first) followed perhaps by frontmatter or other stuff like lists, headings ... however to put this stuff into perspective, eg to understand why there is xparse ... i would urge you to have a look at the slides we put out and perhaps you have some comments/questions/whatever beforehand once you've seen that. > Your css-like approach to style-things seems to open new ways towards > publishing a document on paper and on the web, likeways. > I hope, you release the LaTeX2e* before the next official LaTeX2e-Release! to sum up i hope to be able to release a substancial part of it together with the 99/12 release (in experimental then and further integrated in the release following, ie around the TUG meeting 2000 in Oxford) but i plan on releasing bits earlier for discussion on our web site and announced on this list. frank 9-Sep-1999 16:19:03-GMT,3006;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14577 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:18:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA06558; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:06:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444456 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:06:00 +0200 Received: from alpha.ntp.springer.de (alpha.ntp.springer.de [192.129.24.9]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06551 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:05:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE by ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE (PMDF V5.2-32 #35169) id <01JFRXA61S2S000APK@ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE> for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:06:55 CE X-VMS-To: IN%"LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE" X-VMS-Cc: @TEX MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <01JFRXA61S2U000APK@ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:06:54 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Joerg Knappen Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L John Palmer schrieb: >I'm sorry but I think it extremely unlikely that I shall get to >Heidelberg; so may I ask my question in advance? You should be there on Tue, 21st when we hold our talk and to our workshop on Wed, 22nd. I never met someone working for Wiley-VCH on a EuroTeX conference before! Ask them to send you ... > What co-operation do you need from publishers to make this work and > be generally accepted? (For, if you need such support, I think it's > for those of us who work in publishing to try to get our respective > companies to play the game with you.) First of all, we need your *input*: What information should be contained in the frontmatter of a scientific article? What information should be contained in the bibliography? Then, on the workshop we want to work out a markup for authors of LaTeX files. After the workshop we will set up a sample implementation of the new class. Then, we hope that all publishers will adopt to the new class, doing their style files for their journals. So you will have to be a missionary for the new document class. It will easy, since the new class will fit publishers' needs much better than the old article class. >I wish your project great success! Thanks! --J"org Knappen 9-Sep-1999 17:18:59-GMT,2740;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16283 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:18:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA09833; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:59:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444489 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:59:43 +0200 Received: from alpha.ntp.springer.de (alpha.ntp.springer.de [192.129.24.9]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09820 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:59:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE by ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE (PMDF V5.2-32 #35169) id <01JFRZ9MO1IA000APK@ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE> for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:00:37 CE X-VMS-To: IN%"LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE" X-VMS-Cc: @TEX MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <01JFRZ9MO2G4000APK@ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:00:37 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Joerg Knappen Subject: Re: Standard journal macros To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Sebastian Rahtz schrieb: > In the excitement of arguing about *ML, I forgot a very important > point, which is that the LaTeX team have been working on a new front > matter markup. For those of you who were not at the TUG meeting, the > LaTeX team previewed a number of very exciting things which they expect > to release within the next 6 months; perhaps the front matter markup > has been forgotten in the excitement. In fact, frontmatter matters. It is one of our two main targets (the other ony being the bibliography). > I do hope that Jorg et al will not start off on a new direction of > markup, just when the core system is about to have radical > improvements. We don't intend to do so. This is the reason why we have a workshop at Heidelberg, and not a presentation. We are ready to listen and to collect all the good ideas before launching the new class. We do not come in with a ready-made class design. --J"org Knappen ===> EuroTeX99: http://uk.tug.org/EuroTeX-99/ <=== 10-Sep-1999 12:30:54-GMT,24307;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA13172 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 06:30:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA11350; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:58:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444282 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:58:13 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11317 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:58:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id MAA21698; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:55:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <199909101155.MAA21698@nag.co.uk> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:55:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: xparse package: A general parser for LaTeX document commands. To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L As mentioned already on this list, some of us spoke at TUG99 ( http://www.latex-project.org/talks/tug99.pdf ) about some experimental packages under development to improve various aspects of the LaTeX interface. The first of these packages provides a general mechanism for declaring and parsing the common syntax forms of latex document commands: star forms, optional arguments [xxx], mandatory arguments {xxx}, and picture-mode coordinate arguments (xx,yy) . The uuencoded gzipped tar file below contains drwxr-sr-x davidc/axiom 0 Sep 10 12:28 1999 xparse/ -r--r--r-- davidc/axiom 7018 Sep 10 12:28 1999 xparse/ldcsetup.dtx A low level package to set up some of the coding conventions used in the code for several packages under development. -r--r--r-- davidc/axiom 42425 Sep 10 12:28 1999 xparse/xparse.dtx The more or less documented source for this package. -rw-r--r-- davidc/axiom 206 Sep 10 12:28 1999 xparse/xparse.ins A standard latex docstrip install file -rw-r--r-- davidc/axiom 4187 Sep 10 12:28 1999 xparse/xparse-test.tex A test example. Note that this example file generates tex errors when run. That is expected, it shows examples of some error conditions... The documentation in the dtx and the example file may be somewhat terse and technical, I recommend that you read the talk at the URL above to gain an overview of the aim of this package before looking at the code. We welcome comments on this to this mailing list. Please note that while they are in this experimental state these packages are _not_ released under the usual LPPL conditions. 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Well having seen xparse I'm quite excited. I hope this won't remain as Latex2e* for too long, and that Latex 3 is nigh! How will all this fit into the programming environment of Latex3? Will xparse and friends be rewritten with \type_name:args. In fact what is the status of this aspect of Latex3? One feature which I think would be nice is a \newargumenttype macro, analogous to \newcolumntype of the array package. I wait with anticipation the template packages &c. James 10-Sep-1999 16:10:59-GMT,2807;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19288 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:10:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA01431; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:00:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444514 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:00:07 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01395 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:59:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id QAA21090; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:56:53 +0100 (BST) References: <199909101541.QAA22188@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199909101556.QAA21090@nag.co.uk> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:56:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: xparse To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909101541.QAA22188@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> (message from James Kilfiger on Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:41:34 +0100) > How will all this fit into the > programming environment of Latex3? Will xparse and friends be rewritten > with \type_name:args. In fact what is the status of this aspect of > Latex3? Open question. We were not exactly swamped with responses to that \type_name:args code. We found it useful (most of the time:-) but if it looking so strange is going to hurt acceptance of any new system it may not be worth it, or it may (don't know:-). On the other hand the template interface is also aimed making things look different, but to a different target audience, someone who isn't a tex programmer (necessarily) and they probably don't like the existing interface, so in that case there are only advantages in having a `new look'. > One feature which I think would be nice is a \newargumenttype macro, > analogous to \newcolumntype of the array package. What new sorts of argument would you want. (this is a real question so I understand the functionality you are asking for) > I wait with anticipation the template packages &c. soon, although I have to write a talk on MathML before the UKTEX meeting on Sunday/Monday:-) David 10-Sep-1999 17:21:49-GMT,3085;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21305 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:21:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA04898; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:09:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444553 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:09:21 +0200 Received: from daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.30]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA04891 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:09:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23782 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:09:19 +0100 (BST) Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA26622; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:09:18 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199909101709.SAA26622@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:09:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Re: xparse To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909101556.QAA21090@nag.co.uk> from David Carlisle at "Sep 10, 99 04:56:53 pm" > I wrote: > > One feature which I think would be nice is a \newargumenttype macro, > > analogous to \newcolumntype of the array package. David writes: > What new sorts of argument would you want. (this is a real question > so I understand the functionality you are asking for) Well three thoughts I had: Using characters other than * to indicate variant forms. I can imagine a command with two independent variants, accesed by \foo, \foo*, \foo+, and \foo*+ If one wanted to make a `3d' picture mode, a triplet (x,y,z) argument might be useful. It is proposed that the float placement argument be in the form [hb|tp]; this might be a convienent form for other commands. Here my inventivness begins to run-out. Perhaps these are bad ideas; too many argument types will only cause confusion for the user. But I can imagine a \newargtype scheme being useful. Other thing, making the default value of an optional command the same as that of another command, as is done with \@dblarg, I can imagine \DeclareDocumentCommand{\foo}{m O{#1}}{...} being useful. James 11-Sep-1999 6:48:06-GMT,2286;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10414 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:48:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA24884; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 08:35:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443776 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 08:35:38 +0200 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk (ns.cityscape.co.uk [194.159.0.5]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24875 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 08:35:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from angel2.cityscape.co.uk ([194.159.0.17]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Pgn8-0004HS-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:37:42 +0100 Received: from ku15 (helo=localhost) by angel2.cityscape.co.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Pgpu-0007MR-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:40:34 +0100 X-Sender: ku15@angel2.cityscape.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:40:34 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "John Palmer (johnp@bcs.org.uk)" Subject: Re: Standard journal macro To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <01JFRXA61S2U000APK@ALPHA.NTP.SPRINGER.DE> Thanks, Joerg, for the invitation, but I can't get to EuroTeX. I'm going to be away for a few days but I look forward to starting an e-mail dialogue on the questions you sent from Sep 22 onwards! Best wishes John John Palmer 69 St Cross Road, Winchester SO23 9RE, England +44 1962 865261 johnp@bcs.org.uk 12-Sep-1999 11:31:21-GMT,7202;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA11207 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 05:31:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03635; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:18:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443762 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:18:25 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03627 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:18:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin02.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.174.2]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27666 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:18:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00439; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:54:27 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199909071904.VAA00530@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199909101541.QAA22188@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199909120954.LAA00439@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:54:27 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: xparse To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909101541.QAA22188@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> James Kilfiger writes: > One feature which I think would be nice is a \newargumenttype macro, > analogous to \newcolumntype of the array package. i doubt that a generic extension like that would be useful on this level as a) you can't really extend parsing rules like you can extend processing rules in array, instead you always need to write additional low-level code for parsing and b) i think them main purpose of that package is not to provide an extended parser but rather clearly separate top-level parsing from formatting with the result that you can replace the parsing bit completely without having to rewrite the whole formatting part as well (see talk) don't misunderstand me here: the current interface most likely need changes and additions and disucssing the merits of individual suggested extensions is worth while, i'm only saying that right now i think the final package should provide a fixed set of parsing rules. perhaps it might be sensible to provide a mechanism for packages to allow extending the parser, ie a \DeclareParsingRule thing so that a special purpose package could extend this interface. however the disadvantage of something like this is that packages might define conflicting rules and of course the general danger of the document-level syntax getting more and more complex without a real benefit for the user --- needs further thought i guess. regarding the individual suggestions: > Well three thoughts I had: > Using characters other than * to indicate variant forms. I can imagine > a command with two independent variants, accesed by \foo, \foo*, \foo+, > and \foo*+ this could be provided easily enough, eg, S{ If one wanted to make a `3d' picture mode, a triplet (x,y,z) argument > might be useful. that would seem to me very special ie should probably not be part of the standard interface. > It is proposed that the float placement argument be in the form > [hb|tp]; this might be a convienent form for other commands. that's an interesting one. perhaps you are right that supporting stuff like this would be useful. on the other hand [..|..] might be a stupid idea in the first place. the main reason for suggesting this extension in the talk is that it is upward compatible not necessarily because we think it is the best syntax for that case. so there might be some need to rethink that float part anyway in which case the example may vanish :-) irregardless of that (just looking at it from the xparse point of view) what would a parser parsing for [..|..] return? for those who haven't looked at our talk yet: the proposed syntax for the float is to structure the float specifier using | (zero or more time). That is the argument could be [htb], or [hb|tbp], or even [hb|tb|tbp] etc. now the main point of the xparse interface is that after parsing we end up always with the same number of mandatory arguments. So what should be returned? > Other thing, making the default value of an optional command the same as > that of another command, as is done with \@dblarg, I can imagine > \DeclareDocumentCommand{\foo}{m O{#1}}{...} being useful. i thought about that too --- and decided against it. two reasons: a) awark to implement as a general solution without slowing down the parsing process substancially (but perhaps i simply hadn't had the right idea?) b) more importantly i'm more or less convinced that providing such defaults at the xparse level is wrong in the first place as it confuses formatting and parsing again. to explain b): if we have { o m } then we get returned \NoValue{foo} if the optional argument is missing. Now on the formatting level the invoked template can easily decide that if there is \NoValue then reuse the second argument here again. On the other hand the design might decide to do something different, eg to not use anything in such a case. If however the parser already returns {foo}{foo} there is no way for the template to distinguish the case that the document contained [foo]{foo} from the case that the document just contained {foo} (ie no optional argument). In other words you lose potentially interesting information and you put design information back into the parsing interface. So why did i implement O{default} at all then? well, mainly for processing speed issues in certain cases (see the section discussing this in xparse.dtx) but i'm not really convinced it should be there at all. it is after all against the main idea of separating document-level syntax from formatting especially if misused. comments? > Here my inventivness begins to run-out. Perhaps these are bad ideas; > too many argument types will only cause confusion for the user. But I that is the main reason why i believe that a suitable but mainly fixed interface here is probably better > can imagine a \newargtype scheme being useful. should be thought about, i guess. if it can be implemented in a sensible way and made available with caution to the package designer it might be useful but... frank 12-Sep-1999 19:54:47-GMT,2778;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20244 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:54:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA21363; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:42:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 443878 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:42:52 +0200 Received: from nx5.HRZ.Uni-Dortmund.DE (nx5.HRZ.Uni-Dortmund.DE [129.217.131.21]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21356 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:42:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sx2.hrz.uni-dortmund.de by nx5.HRZ.Uni-Dortmund.DE via smtp-local with ESMTP; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:42:15 +0200 Received: from rigel.univie.ac.at (dial-143155.HRZ.Uni-Dortmund.DE [129.217.143.155]) by sx2.hrz.uni-dortmund.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05713 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:42:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from sx0005@localhost) by rigel.univie.ac.at (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA09420; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:03:00 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: rigel.univie.ac.at: sx0005 set sender to sx0005@sx2.hrz.uni-dortmund.de using -f References: <199909071904.VAA00530@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199909101541.QAA22188@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199909120954.LAA00439@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Message-ID: <199909122003.UAA09420@rigel.univie.ac.at> Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:03:00 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Werner LEMBERG Subject: Re: xparse To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909120954.LAA00439@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> (message from Frank Mittelbach on Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:54:27 +0200) > Using characters other than * to indicate variant forms. I can > imagine a command with two independent variants, accesed by > \foo, \foo*, \foo+, and \foo*+ this could be provided easily enough, eg, S{ Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20381 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:39:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA20031; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:24:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444825 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:24:00 +0200 Received: from gate.eds.de (gate.eds.de [205.191.194.5]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA19992 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:23:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com by gate.eds.de with SMTP id QAA29869 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for ); Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:24:26 +0200 Received: by n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA086819037; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:23:57 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199909071904.VAA00530@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199909101541.QAA22188@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199909120954.LAA00439@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199909122003.UAA09420@rigel.univie.ac.at> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14302.23165.67343.509067@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:23:57 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Comments: Resent-From: Frank Mittelbach Comments: Originally-From: Frank Mittelbach From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: xparse To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909122003.UAA09420@rigel.univie.ac.at> Werner > > Using characters other than * to indicate variant forms. I can > > imagine a command with two independent variants, accesed by > > \foo, \foo*, \foo+, and \foo*+ > > this could be provided easily enough, eg, S{ might indeed be generally useful, any comments? > > A very nice idea! I like it. But the \foo*+ form is too much -- a > single character should be sufficient. you misunderstood, the suggestion was to allow scanning for some arbitrary symbol (well sort of arbitrary) e.g. \DeclareDocumentCommand \foo { S{*} S{+} } { ... } the above would parse \foo (returning \BooleanFalse\BooleanFalse) \foo* (returning \BooleanTrue\BooleanFalse) \foo+ (returning \BooleanFalse\BooleanTrue) but of course also \foo*+ (returning \BooleanTrue\BooleanTrue) whether this is helpful / sensible to have this extension is another matter but this would be the functionality frank 16-Sep-1999 16:05:08-GMT,2834;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03252 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:05:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA10394; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:30:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445879 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:30:07 +0200 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10362 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:29:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fenris.math.albany.edu (fenris.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.39]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24539 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:29:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by fenris.math.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA11383 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:29:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Message-ID: <199909161529.LAA11383@fenris.math.albany.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:29:21 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Mark Steinberger Subject: specials and vertical space To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L I've noticed that inclusion of hypertex \specials can affect vertical space. E.g., including the \specials immediately before an equation environment sometimes adds space above the environment. I publish articles in multiple formats, some of which include the \specials and others of which don't. This can cause problems in which different versions have different page breaks, requiring manual intervention and major headaches. Can latex address this issue, or is it an underlying tex problem? Has anyone else noticed this? Is there any potential cure? Many thanks. Mark Steinberger -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Steinberger | http://nyjm.albany.edu:8000/~mark Dept. of Math. & Stat | University at Albany | Albany, NY 12222 | Editor in Chief, New York Journal of Mathematics mark@csc.albany.edu | http://nyjm.albany.edu:8000/nyjm.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16-Sep-1999 16:09:45-GMT,2053;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03391 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:09:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA11333; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:40:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445887 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:40:00 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11313 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:39:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id QAA15868; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:36:52 +0100 (BST) References: <199909161529.LAA11383@fenris.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199909161536.QAA15868@nag.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:36:52 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: specials and vertical space To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909161529.LAA11383@fenris.math.albany.edu> (message from Mark Steinberger on Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:29:21 -0400) > Can latex address this issue yes > or is it an underlying tex problem? yes (but latex can try to work round it) > Has anyone else noticed this? yes > Is there any potential cure? yes see the slides at http://www.latex-project.org/talks/tug99.pdf especially the slide with the competion, you'll see that this is the subject of one of the questions... David 16-Sep-1999 16:34:54-GMT,2834;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04360 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:34:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA12952; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:57:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445896 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:57:37 +0200 Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail3.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.9]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11869 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:46:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11RdjR-0001fs-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:45:57 +0100 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17]) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11RdjR-0004RS-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:45:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199909161529.LAA11383@fenris.math.albany.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.73 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14305.4272.443240.727029@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:45:52 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: specials and vertical space To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909161529.LAA11383@fenris.math.albany.edu> Mark Steinberger writes: > I've noticed that inclusion of hypertex \specials can affect vertical > space. E.g., including the \specials immediately before an equation > environment sometimes adds space above the environment. ah, I know it well > Can latex address this issue, or is it an underlying tex problem? > > Has anyone else noticed this? Is there any potential cure? LaTeX can and will address this problem, but it will require some work on hyperref and other macro packages to interact with what They do. So don't expect it very soon. Basically, it involves delaying the addition of vertical space to a point where the \specials stop interfering. David and Frank can explain better, but the bottom line is that a solution is on its way. Sebastian 16-Sep-1999 17:27:45-GMT,2361;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06204 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:27:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA18429; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:02:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445943 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:02:30 +0200 Received: from mailgateway1.uni-freiburg.de (mailgateway1.uni-freiburg.de [132.230.1.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA18416 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:02:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from remote142-148.home.uni-freiburg.de [132.230.142.148] by mailgateway1.uni-freiburg.de with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 11RevT-0002Fm-00; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:02:27 +0200 X-Sender: oberdiek@pop3.uni-freiburg.de X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990916185959.2e87d968@pop3.uni-freiburg.de> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:59:59 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Heiko Oberdiek Subject: Re: specials and vertical space To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909161529.LAA11383@fenris.math.albany.edu> At 11:29 16.09.1999 -0400, Mark Steinberger wrote: >I've noticed that inclusion of hypertex \specials can affect vertical >space. E.g., including the \specials immediately before an equation >environment sometimes adds space above the environment. Do you mean hyperref? Which version do you mean? The newest version tries to restore the value of \lastskip. That was one cause for different vertical spacing. http://www.tug.org/applications/hyperref/hyperref.zip (6.66e) Yours sincerely Heiko 16-Sep-1999 17:29:12-GMT,2432;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06223 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:28:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA18100; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:59:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445938 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:59:02 +0200 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA18084 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:58:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fenris.math.albany.edu (fenris.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.39]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05013 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by fenris.math.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA11481 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:58:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Message-ID: <199909161658.MAA11481@fenris.math.albany.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:58:35 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Mark Steinberger Subject: Re: specials and vertical space To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14305.4272.443240.727029@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> from "Sebastian Rahtz" at Sep 16, 99 04:45:52 pm Sebastian writes: > LaTeX can and will address this problem, but it will require some work > on hyperref and other macro packages to interact with what They do. I've been using the raw \specials in my own macro packages, so I'd be interested in the details of the potential fixes. I'm particularly interested in any particular issues with respect to the AMS macros (hyperref has, at least historically, had difficulty with these), as my packages use them. --Mark 16-Sep-1999 17:38:05-GMT,3038;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06527 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:37:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA19231; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:12:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445948 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:12:31 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19218 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:12:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id SAA10930; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:09:47 +0100 (BST) References: <199909161658.MAA11481@fenris.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199909161709.SAA10930@nag.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:09:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: specials and vertical space To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909161658.MAA11481@fenris.math.albany.edu> (message from Mark Steinberger on Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:58:35 -0400) > I've been using the raw \specials in my own macro packages, so I'd > be interested in the details of the potential fixes. Basically one has to ensure that in any vertical list things are only added once. So rather than some macro adding a space, some macro adding a special, then a second macro not seeing the 1st space because it can't look past the special, you instead have to trap all such commands that make vertical skips, penalties, marks specials etc and instead store the information in a private datatype that you construct. then when you next come to horizontal material you look at all the space, penalties and \specials you have collected, decide what penalty and space you want to emit and output them in a suitable order along with any specials writes and marks collected. Doing this without breaking everything else is more than an evening's work:-) Of course if consistent output (even if bad) is better than inconsistent output you can take the simpler option used by the color package monochrome option. this turns off specials but makes them into a non immediate \write, which has the same effect on vertical space as a special. So you can proof the document in a non colour context, and not get a surprise when you suddenly turn on colour support. There is some discssion of this in grfguide.tex and color.dtx. David 23-Sep-1999 15:54:28-GMT,4283;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22586 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:54:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA03875; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:14:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444884 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:14:16 +0200 Received: from abel.math.umu.se (abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03862 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:14:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by abel.math.umu.se (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA00345 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:12:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id RAA03863 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:14:07 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Left italic correction and fontdimens To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L A while back, on the fontinst mailing list, it was noticed that there are fonts (the concrete case was some italic fonts on the Bitstream 500 CD) which seem to have a built-in optical justification of the margin, i.e., if you were to unslant such a font while keeping the reference points of character boxes fixed then the left sidebrearings would become visibly smaller than in the corresponding upright font. The advantage with this would be to make the margins of italic paragraphs align optically with the margins of upright paragraphs; with most fonts they don't align. (Exercise 14.16 in The TeXbook is about achieving the same effect by fiddling with \leftskip and \rightskip, but having it built into the fonts makes life much simpler for LaTeX.) The problem with such fonts come when you change to it from upright inside a paragraph, e.g. ... either \emph{horizontally} or ... or even ... the superthings (\emph{maximal} gadgets with ... There should be some kern inserted---an italic correction to the left of the italic material. As TeX only has italic corrections to the right of characters, that mechanism will not suffice here. One thing which could be done is to have a fontdimen which is interpreted as an italic correction to the left, common to all characters in the font---then high-level font changing commands (like \textit) could insert a kern of this size, just like they currently make italic corrections to the right. But clearly, this is a suggestion for some (probably) distant future. I do not expect to see any implementations soon. BTW, thinking of the above also made me think about fontdimens in general. I noticed in the slides from TUG99 that LaTeX2e* will have symbolic names for at least some of these, and there is clearly a need for this. Another thing needed is the ability to test whether a font has a given fontdimen. It would be neat if one in FD files could set, for a font family and for fonts individually, something which would act as "the set of fontdimens available for this font", perhaps like one today can set the hyphenchar of the font. This would be friendly to extensions in this area. Finally, I'm eagerly avaiting template.dtx (or whatever you will call it). I think templates might provide an elegant solution to some problems with font selection in LaTeX2e, but it's hard to tell just judging from the slides. Lars Hellström 23-Sep-1999 16:08:44-GMT,2880;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23043 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:08:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA05558; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:32:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444911 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:32:50 +0200 Received: from ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.232.33]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05531 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:32:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by ujf.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA26952 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:32:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id RAA14625; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:36:24 +0200 (MET DST) References: X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <199909231536.RAA14625@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:36:24 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Re: Left italic correction and fontdimens To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hi Lars, I'm not sure i agree with you. The interword space that is relevant is located between the base line and the x-height line in a font. I'm not disturbed by fonts like baskerville where the sequence leaves a correct space between the point and the vertical stem of the J, although its tail almost goes to the left of the vertical of the point. Side-bearings are adjusted for the typical case where a cap is followed by a lowercase letter, and lc are inside a word between two other lc letters. What I'd need is super metrics with kerns to the left/right-word boundary in order to adapt the side-bearings to that situation, i even dream of characters allowing kerns for optical justification. Plus cap-cap kerns fot all-caps words, +... Not much related to latex2e*++, eh? Thierry Bouche, Grenoble. 27-Sep-1999 13:14:36-GMT,3845;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22995 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 07:14:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA11149; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:39:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445676 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:39:04 +0200 Received: from abel.math.umu.se (abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11114 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:39:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by abel.math.umu.se (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA10642 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:38:09 +0200 (CEST) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id OAA11122 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:40:17 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Left italic correction and fontdimens To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909231536.RAA14625@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Thierry wrote: >Hi Lars, > >I'm not sure i agree with you. The interword space that is relevant >is located between the base line and the x-height line in a font. >I'm not disturbed by fonts like baskerville where the sequence > leaves a correct space between the point and the >vertical stem of the J, although its tail almost goes to the left of >the vertical of the point. Hmm... That's something different---the tail of J in baskerville is below the baseline, and overshoots there aren't very disturbing. In the font I wrote about, _every_ glyph seemed to have been shifted to the left by some fixed amount, sort of what would be the result of doing (for every glyph): \resetglyph{a} \movert{-100} \glyph{a}{1000} \movert{100} \endresetglyph With an interword space of 250/1000em, a maximal shrink of 240/1000 of the space (the setting from fontinst's t1.etx), and an additional optical adjustment of 1/10em, there's only 90/1000em left of the space right before something italic. I would find that disturbing. >Side-bearings are adjusted for the typical case where a cap is >followed by a lowercase letter, and lc are inside a word between two >other lc letters. What I'd need is super metrics with kerns to the >left/right-word boundary in order to adapt the side-bearings to that >situation, i even dream of characters allowing kerns >for optical justification. Plus cap-cap kerns fot all-caps words, +... Setting kerns is up to the font designer, but where should one put a kern to adjust for font changes? I think font change adjustments are up to the macro package in use to make, but of course the font must then be able to specify its deviation from the standard, which was what my suggestion was all about. Lars Hellström 28-Sep-1999 10:29:35-GMT,2758;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA24462 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 04:29:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA02376; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:06:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444718 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:06:11 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02334 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:06:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id LAA12492; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:04:23 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <199909281004.LAA12492@nag.co.uk> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:04:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L As discussed in the talk given at Vancouver (slides at http://www.latex-project.org/talks/tug99.pdf) we have been developing a new `template' system intended to give a more natural interface to LaTeX class design. I am pleased to announce that the first public test release of this code is now available from the project web site. The package is available as a compressed tar file, or as directory of individual files from the following URL: http://www.latex-project.org/code/experimental/template.tgz http://www.latex-project.org/code/experimental/template/ template.dtx in that directory has a large section of documentation at the front describing the commands in the interface and giving a `worked example' building up some templates for caption formatting. The package builds on the `ldcsetup' code that was posted to this list as part of the xparse distribution. That code is also available from the project web site at these URL: http://www.latex-project.org/code/experimental/xparse.tgz http://www.latex-project.org/code/experimental/xparse/ Please note that these experimental packages should _not_ be placed on public archives, CDRoms or other distributions at the present time. We welcome discussions of this interface on this list. David 29-Sep-1999 3:51:59-GMT,2072;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21679 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:51:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA05375; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 05:42:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444437 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 05:42:38 +0200 Received: from mets.tcimet.net (news.tci.east-lansing.mi.us [198.109.160.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA05368 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 05:42:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hensh ([35.12.163.51]) by mets.tcimet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA09774 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:43:50 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:48:18 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Richard Hensh Subject: xparse and end-users To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909101556.QAA21090@nag.co.uk> What does (or will) xparse offer to the casual end user? How about someone who is not afraid to write a few macros but is not interested in designing classes? thanks ricky 30-Sep-1999 10:15:36-GMT,3366;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA04707 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 04:13:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA27333; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:25:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444628 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:25:02 +0200 Received: from gate.eds.de (gate.eds.de [205.191.194.5]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA27302 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:24:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com by gate.eds.de with SMTP id LAA15584 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for ); Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:26:56 +0200 Received: by n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA210963578; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:26:18 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199909101556.QAA21090@nag.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14323.11449.969779.155196@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:26:17 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: xparse and end-users To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Richard Hensh writes: > What does (or will) xparse offer to the casual end user? How about someone > who is not afraid to write a few macros but is not interested in designing > classes? well xparse offers the ability to produce macros that have the look and feel of standard LaTeX without the need to resort to lowlevel programming, e.g., if you want to write a macro which has two optional argument (with default values) and one mandatory one you simply write \DeclareDocumentCommand \foo { O{default1} O{default2} n } { < code for the macro where #1 is first optional #2 is second optional and #3 is mandatory argument > } doing this in current LaTeX would require several macros using \@ifnectchar ... calling each other if you like this is a generalization of \newcommand\foo[2][default]{...} which allows you to define a new command with a single optional argument and one mandatory one (or several ones if you replace 2 by a higher number). does this answer your question? frank ps stuff like template.dtx on the other hand is effectively of interest only for class file writers or more explicitly for anybody who wants to change the layout of a class (once classes are written using this mechanism) --- in other words the concept of instances is relevant to everybody (hopefully) even though only a few people will ever write templates for instances. 30-Sep-1999 13:57:12-GMT,3692;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09115 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 07:56:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA22693; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:24:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444978 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:24:51 +0200 Received: from mets.tcimet.net (news.tci.east-lansing.mi.us [198.109.160.2]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22669 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:24:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hensh ([35.12.163.51]) by mets.tcimet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA08612 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:25:37 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:29:57 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Richard Hensh Subject: Re: xparse and end-users To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14323.11449.969779.155196@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Yes it does. Thanks. BTW, there has been some discussion about the Latex Companion in ctt. Is a revised edition in the works? ;-> ricky -----Original Message----- From: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project [mailto:LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE]On Behalf Of Frank Mittelbach Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 5:26 AM To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Subject: Re: xparse and end-users Richard Hensh writes: > What does (or will) xparse offer to the casual end user? How about someone > who is not afraid to write a few macros but is not interested in designing > classes? well xparse offers the ability to produce macros that have the look and feel of standard LaTeX without the need to resort to lowlevel programming, e.g., if you want to write a macro which has two optional argument (with default values) and one mandatory one you simply write \DeclareDocumentCommand \foo { O{default1} O{default2} n } { < code for the macro where #1 is first optional #2 is second optional and #3 is mandatory argument > } doing this in current LaTeX would require several macros using \@ifnectchar ... calling each other if you like this is a generalization of \newcommand\foo[2][default]{...} which allows you to define a new command with a single optional argument and one mandatory one (or several ones if you replace 2 by a higher number). does this answer your question? frank ps stuff like template.dtx on the other hand is effectively of interest only for class file writers or more explicitly for anybody who wants to change the layout of a class (once classes are written using this mechanism) --- in other words the concept of instances is relevant to everybody (hopefully) even though only a few people will ever write templates for instances. 30-Sep-1999 14:06:28-GMT,2748;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09366 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 08:06:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA25663; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:42:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445020 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:42:12 +0200 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25599 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:41:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02258 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:42:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23860 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <199909301342.JAA23860@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:42:27 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: xparse and end-users To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Dear Friends -- Frank Mittelbach writes: > well xparse offers the ability to produce macros that have the look > and feel of standard LaTeX without the need to resort to lowlevel > programming, e.g., if you want to write a macro which has two optional > argument (with default values) and one mandatory one you simply write > > \DeclareDocumentCommand \foo { O{default1} O{default2} n } > { < code for the macro where #1 is first optional #2 is second optional > and #3 is mandatory argument > } This is very nice. Since what is happening is that "foo" is being added to a namespace, would it not be logical for the usage to be: \DeclareDocumentCommand foo {...}{...} ? Of course, usage this way at variance with that of "\newcommand" might cause confusion for an author. (Since I do not code for TeX, I have no idea whether it might "cost" more.) -- Bill 30-Sep-1999 14:45:22-GMT,2930;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10337 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 08:45:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA28672; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:01:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445040 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:01:48 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28651 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:01:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id OAA06004; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:59:46 +0100 (BST) References: <199909301342.JAA23860@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199909301359.OAA06004@nag.co.uk> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:59:46 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: xparse and end-users To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909301342.JAA23860@hilbert.math.albany.edu> (hammond@CSC.ALBANY.EDU) > Since what is happening is that "foo" is being added to a namespace, > would it not be logical for the usage to be: > \DeclareDocumentCommand foo {...}{...} ? You may want to describe it that way, but that isn't really the latex view. The latex view is that the name of the command is `\foo' not that \ is markup and the command is called `foo'. (What happens at the primitive TeX level is probably nearer the latter, but much of latex is concerned with hiding primitive tex notions with higher level constructs, so the implementation details are not really relevant here.) It would probably be \DeclareDocumentCommand {foo} {...}{...} ^ ^ as otherwise the exact syntax for what is the `foo' argument appears to be somewhat under specified. but while some things (environments, pagestyles, ...) are referred to by name (with no backslash), commands are always referred to by name starting with \. There are no user level constructs that use both of these forms. (Internal macros such as \@ifundefined do switch between these views). In latex the `name' of the \mbox command is `\mbox'. The fact that if you go \catcode`j=0 then jbox{this} also works as well as \mbox{this} is a technical detail that probably you don't want to highlight. David 1-Oct-1999 13:23:38-GMT,3467;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12255 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 07:23:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA15578; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:45:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445101 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:45:18 +0200 Received: from snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.31]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15567 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:45:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22331 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:46:40 +0100 (BST) Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA04394 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:46:35 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199910011246.NAA04394@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:46:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Re: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909281004.LAA12492@nag.co.uk> from David Carlisle at "Sep 28, 99 11:04:23 am" > I am pleased to announce that the first public test release of [the > template] code is now available from the project web site. Thoughts on template loading. There seems to me to be a qualitative difference between the \DeclareTemplate command and the \DeclareInstance, \UseInstance and xparse commands. FMi mentions that \DeclareTemplate is not for end users, not even for class-writers. This is somewhat similar to nfss \DeclareFontShape compared with \fontshape{..} or \itshape. Perhaps a similar scheme would be useful. My idea is that templates could be put into files named .td When the class or package writer says \DeclareInstance{}{}{...} the system would first check if a template of that type/name is known, if not then attempt to load .td. The analogy is with .fd loading. This would separate out the low-level Tex from the declaration of instances and document commands, and would be easier than loading packages containing template definitions by hand. It would also make distribution of templates easier. There would also be a distinction in file name between classes and packages -- for loading by end-users, and template definition files -- for loading by classes and packages. Also are there plans to release any experimental template definitions, to supplement the two caption templates and the initial example on the slides? James 1-Oct-1999 13:33:48-GMT,3132;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12461 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 07:33:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA19001; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 15:08:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445152 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 15:08:24 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18957 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 15:08:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id OAA18170; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:06:25 +0100 (BST) References: <199910011246.NAA04394@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199910011306.OAA18170@nag.co.uk> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:06:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910011246.NAA04394@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> (message from James Kilfiger on Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:46:35 +0100) > Also are there plans to release any experimental template definitions, > to supplement the two caption templates and the initial example on the > slides? Yes. One reason for the delay between the xparse release and the template release was that we planned to ship with some examples (possibly journal front matter) but we've been hard pressed to find any `spare' time to work on latex this week so decided to let out template as is. With a bit of luck will get some of the example applications (and more to the point, their documentation) in a fit state by next week. > My idea is that templates could be put into files named .td Hmm interesting idea. I am not sure if .fd is quite the right granularity for automatic loading. If there was, say, a template type for `section headings' then this `type' would be commonly known, perhaps (one day) known in the format. However a setup wanting a particular fancy heading layout not obtainable from the existing templates may well want to have a new template (of the same type) and then generate instances of that. So perhaps type+name is more what you would want for automatic loading. (You could of course try both) In either case, automatic loading might have some implications on conventions used for names of types and templates. (Just as it does on font family names, which try to be three letter, to keep the encoding+family fd file name reasonably short.) David 1-Oct-1999 14:40:46-GMT,4050;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14150 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:40:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA25978; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:18:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445252 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:18:33 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25964 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:18:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin371.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.71]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13350 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:19:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00640; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:38:12 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199909281004.LAA12492@nag.co.uk> <199910011246.NAA04394@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199910011238.OAA00640@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:38:12 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910011246.NAA04394@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> James writes: to answer the last question first: > Also are there plans to release any experimental template definitions, > to supplement the two caption templates and the initial example on the > slides? yes there are plans. there is a whole bunch of stuff for lists, headings, tocs, paragraph formatting, etc more or less ready, but it depends on the galley interface (see talk) and i'm still changing my mind on the implementation of that and working on the documentation. (the sample on initials like most of the other stuff described in the talk is actually working --- not just white paper :-) David is working on the frontmatter part so that might come soon as well. but on the other hand it would be nice if one or the other of the people listening in would try their hand on the stuff as well without being influenced by the templates i wrote already. Also: without actual implementations it would be very beneficial (in my eyes) to think about suitable template types for certain tasks. i have deliberately taken some time writing down thoughts on a "caption" template type (perhaps better called "typesetcaption") to explain why this is something that needs thought, ideas and input from many people. in the talk a few template types are described as well (the list template type is actually implemented with two different templates one for vertically oriented lists and one for inline lists) and i would be very glad if people would step back and try thinking whether those types provide what is needed? do they pass the right kind of information to the formatting tasks? is there something else needed or different approaches for, say, lists suitable template types to discuss would be headings footnotes lists or any other you would fancy but for the moment that seems to me enough to keep the discussion a bit focused frank ps will come to the other part of the mail later 1-Oct-1999 14:44:11-GMT,2833;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14218 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:43:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA26005; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:18:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445255 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:18:41 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25996 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:18:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin371.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.71]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA31648 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:20:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00608; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:17:29 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <14323.11449.969779.155196@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> <199910011027.MAA00375@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Message-ID: <199910011217.OAA00608@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:17:29 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: xparse and end-users To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910011027.MAA00375@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Richard Hensh writes: > BTW, there has been some discussion about the Latex Companion in ctt. > Is a revised edition in the works? ;-> yes and no. i view the current work as outline in the talk given in Vancouver the first priority since if these interfaces are available and well-received they will alter the need for certain packages and also alter change what needs to be explained about headings/toc entries etc in the companion revision. so my current plan is to start working on a revision seriously not earlier than late 2000 frank ps: this is a resent of that post because it seems that my mail account was slightly screwed up the last two days 1-Oct-1999 15:53:14-GMT,2138;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16135 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:52:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA01482; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:26:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445305 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:26:05 +0200 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01472 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:25:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20580 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 11:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA04020 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 11:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 11:27:20 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank Mittelbach writes: > suitable template types to discuss would be > > headings > footnotes > lists How would the use of such templates affect Gurari style translation to an sgml like docbook? (I ask from total ignorance.) -- Bill 1-Oct-1999 15:59:08-GMT,2920;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16335 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:59:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA02825; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:43:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445316 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:43:46 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02791 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:43:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id QAA13202; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:41:33 +0100 (BST) References: <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199910011541.QAA13202@nag.co.uk> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:41:33 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> (hammond@CSC.ALBANY.EDU) > How would the use of such templates affect Gurari style > translation to an sgml like docbook? not so much the templates themselves, but the separation of user syntax (xparse) from the internal coding, should make that sort of translation easier. Basically you would just need to arrange that the document interface commands became suitably decorated with hooks for the tex4ht back end. So for docbook level translations you would probably interface at the commands defined at the xparse layer. However one may view templates (some of them at least) as a mechanism that encodes a certain parameterised formatting capability. This is basically the level of css properties, XSL Formatting Objects, and DSSSL flow objects. That is objects like `displayed vertical list' `paragraph' `page layout' etc. If one was particularly interested in a combined latex XSl FO system one might want to give a template interface to the FO functionality, and then build the rest of the latex system up from that. then for latex typesetting you would use the actual tex implementation of the templates, but for other uses you might trap things at the level of the interface to the templates, and trivially encode that in XSL FO syntax. (All this is entirely speculative) David 4-Oct-1999 13:38:59-GMT,3032;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09013 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 07:38:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA26959; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:49:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445284 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:49:28 +0200 Received: from snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.31]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26952 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:49:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09234 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:50:54 +0100 (BST) Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27424; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:50:52 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199910041250.NAA27424@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:50:52 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Re: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910011238.OAA00640@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> from Frank Mittelbach at "Oct 1, 99 02:38:12 pm" > without actual implementations it would be very beneficial (in my eyes) to > think about suitable template types for certain tasks. > > suitable template types to discuss would be > > headings > footnotes > lists About lists, and especially about the what it means for the arguments of a template type to have the same interpretation. Suppose the template type has a width argument. This could be used for the width of a box to set the list in, or a template which set each item in a cell of a table, the width argument could be used to specify the width of those cells. Is this within what is understood by type arguments having the same interpretation? What if the widht was taken as the width of the the label? Another thought, lists with one-line items look very widely spaced, especially when used with non-zero parskip and double spacing. A variant form with tighter spacing, and the item text set in an hbox for such lists might be a good idea. James 6-Oct-1999 17:55:52-GMT,9017;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22121 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:55:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02935; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:27:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445518 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:27:00 +0200 Received: from abel.math.umu.se (abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02928 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:26:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by abel.math.umu.se (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA21108 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:26:08 +0200 (CEST) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id TAA02929 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:28:22 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: A template for author font selection To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909281004.LAA12492@nag.co.uk> Here are some thoughts about templates and font selection. Perhaps I thought about it a bit too long, because the mail got a bit long-winded, but I hope you'll endure it. There are several levels of font selection in LaTeX. At the bottom there is the primitive TeX level, where fonts are specified through TFM file names. On top of that, there is the NFSS level where fonts are specified using attributes (encoding, family, series, shape, size, and once NFSS3 is released case). On top of that, there is what I will call the author level (since that is the lowest normal authors are expected to go), where fonts are selected using commands such as \textit, \small, and \bfseries. On top of that, finally, is the markup level where fonts are indirectly selected by the markup commands. The template.dtx file contains a couple of examples of how some template keys can contain the font selections made by the template, so that in a sense the markup level to author level mapping of fonts is controlled through templates. The point I would like to make is that the author level to NFSS level mapping should perhaps also be controlled through templates; at least it might solve some problems with the current state of things. These problems generally stem from that macros that make author level font selections are usually unaware (i.e., the one who wrote them were, and they make no attempt to examine) of the actual situation at the lower level, so one should be prepared to make compromises while mapping the selections to the NFSS level. In the current setting however, this mapping stays fixed throughout a document and can only be (responsibly) changed by code which take complete responsibility for all document fonts. Since there usually isn't any such code, except in classes that are specially designed for certain fonts, font implementors have taken the only option they have---modifying the NFSS to TeX level mapping so that it suits the standard settings---since that is under each font implementor's control. I think it's the wrong way to go however, and problems certainly do arise when a font family has a bx series, but it is the b series which should be used for normal boldface. One way to use templates for getting around this is to define a template for "author fonts", something like \DeclareTemplateType{noparams}{0} \DeclareTemplate {noparams}{author-fonts}{0}{ medium =n [m] \mddefault, boldface =n [b] \bfdefault, light =n [m] \ltdefault, upright =n [n] \urdefault, italic =n [it] \itdefault, slanted =n [sl] \sldefault, smallcaps =n [sc] \scdefault }{\DoParameterAssignments} (Or perhaps author-fonts should be a type and the template should be named default or something. I'm not sure, but it seems odd that all templates without parameters (i.e., having type noparams in the above setting) should always be affected by the same \UseCollection commands.) Now if FD files are allowed to declare instances of this template, one could use those to specify which values the \XXdefault macros should have when the current font family is declared by that file. ot1cmr.fd would for example say \DeclareInstance{noparams}{OT1cmr}{author-fonts}{boldface=bx} since it (unlike most font families) has bx as its standard boldface series. The AvantGarde (pag) family has a weight named "Extra Light" (el) but no light weight, and has obliques but no italic or smallcaps. Hence t1pag.fd would say \DeclareInstance{noparams}{T1pag}{author-fonts}% {light=el,italic=sl,smallcaps=n} And so on. The reason I took m as the default for light above is that I suspect most families don't have a light series. Of course, this requires that this template (or an instance of it) is used each time the family is changed. Hence the definition of \rmfamily should become something like %A (see below about this) \IfExistsInstanceTF{noparams}{\f@encoding\rmdefault}% {\UseInstance{noparams}{\f@encoding\rmdefault}}% {\UseInstance{noparams}{author-fonts}}% \fontfamily{\rmdefault}% %B (see below about this) \selectfont but I think that is reasonable. At this point one may think that this turns the power over author to NFSS level mapping completely over to font implementors, so that class designers are left without a saying in this, but that is not the case. Everything a class designer who is creating a class for use with a fixed set of fonts has to do to resume control over for example what is the standard boldface series, is to create collection instances for the font families in question and then \Use that collection throughout the document. A user who tries to use the specialized class with fonts it wasn't made for will however see the default settings for those fonts. Hence it works out for the best either way! The reasons for the %A and %B in the suggested \rmfamily definition above do however add a complication. The problem is that when changing from from one family to another using an author level font selection command, you expect the author level font selections of series and shape to be preserved, not the NFSS level selections, and hence one must (i) remember the author level font selections and (ii) map them anew each time the family is changed. Supposing that the \XXdefault macro for author level series and shape are stored in \author@f@series and \author@f@shape respectively, a command like \bfseries would have to be given the definition \fontseries{\bfdefault}\selectfont \def\author@f@series{\bfdefault}% and the %B line above would have to be replaced by \fontseries{\author@f@series}% \fontshape{\author@f@shape}% The %A line is because of another technicality. If the author's last font selection was at the NFSS level then it is more reasonable to expect the NFSS series or shape to be preserved; this can be done by including \expandafter\ifx \author@f@series \f@series \else \def\author@f@series{\f@series}% \fi \expandafter\ifx \author@f@shape \f@shape \else \def\author@f@shape{\f@shape}% \fi (I suspect there is some better command for doing these tests somewhere in the experimental LaTeX3 code) at the %A line above. Finally, one also has to make sure that the FD file in question is loaded before the \IfExistsInstanceTF test is made (otherwise the fonts might come out wrong the first time they are selected). Hence one would also have to do some kind of \EnsureFDFileLoaded{\f@encoding}{\rmdefault} (where the hypothetical \EnsureFDFileLoaded would be very similar to the existing \try@load@fontshape macro---just add a group and don't use \f@encoding and \f@family to pass data) at the end of %A. A final thought connected to this: I considered having emphasis (default value it) and it-emphasis (default value n) keys in the author-fonts template as well, but now it seems more like selecting fonts for emphasising text is something which belongs in the markup level. In any case however, LaTeX2e* shouldn't have these shapes hardwired into the command, as they are in LaTeX2e. Lars Hellström 7-Oct-1999 10:41:47-GMT,10216;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA14415 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 04:41:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA13033; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:40:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444726 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:40:55 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13022 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:40:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin372.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.72]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15962 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:42:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00542; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:19:02 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199909281004.LAA12492@nag.co.uk> Message-ID: <199910070819.KAA00542@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:19:02 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: On template types To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Lars, > Here are some thoughts about templates and font selection. Perhaps I > thought about it a bit too long, because the mail got a bit > long-winded, but I hope you'll endure it. long-winded or not your post does contain a lot of interesting thoughts which are worth pursuing further. but before looking at fonts let me first discuss template types a bit further and explain how i understand that concept (this might also answers some of the questions James posed in a different message). you wrote: > \DeclareTemplateType{noparams}{0} > \DeclareTemplate {noparams}{author-fonts}{0}{ > medium =n [m] \mddefault, > boldface =n [b] \bfdefault, > light =n [m] \ltdefault, > upright =n [n] \urdefault, > italic =n [it] \itdefault, > slanted =n [sl] \sldefault, > smallcaps =n [sc] \scdefault > }{\DoParameterAssignments} > > (Or perhaps author-fonts should be a type and the template should be > named default or something. I'm not sure, but it seems odd that all > templates without parameters (i.e., having type noparams in the above > setting) should always be affected by the same \UseCollection > commands.) if we would have a template type "noparams" what is it supposed to mean? As Lars said: "it seems odd that all templates without parameters should always be affected by the same \UseCollection commands". And indeed, this is not only odd it is against the philosophy of template types! The purpose of the template type is the following: loosely speaking it is supposed to ensure that an instance of some template type could be exchanged with another instance of the same template type without making the code produce rubbish or doesn't work any more. now the above example template type called "noparams" is setting font defaults which is something completely different than say \DeclareTemplate{noparams}{TeX}{0}{ uchyph =c [1] \uchyph, hyphenpenalty =c [50] \hyphenpenalty, exhyphenpenalty =c [50] \exhyphenpenalty, lefthyphenmin =c \lefthyphenmin, righthyphenmin =c \righthyphenmin, } {\DoParameterAssignments} which is also a template that doesn't take mandatory parameter. So if one would claim that both such templates are of the same type we would claim that a class designer could replace an instance of the first template with an instance of the second. we don't mean this do we? so the template type is more than just the number of parameters and their meaning: it is an informal summary of the semantics of the code/purpose/action/effect it has. this includes the semantics of its mandatory parameters but it also includes its overall effect. Thus a template which is setting up the hyphenation mechanism of TeX (like the one above) should have a template type with a dedicated name (say "hyphenation") which has the following informal description: "templates of my type customize the TeX hyphenation algorithm and take no mandatory parameter". (it should probably be far more verbose, eg saying something about the scope of the customization etc etc) And a template which sets up the font defaults should perhaps have a type called "fontdefaults" and an informal description ... This way we would not mistakenly replace an instance which sets up fonts with an instance setting up hyphenation and vice versa but only with instances that are "compatible in nature". as a side remark: my experience with templates that are doing declaration only (eg do not have mandatory arguments and no code section worth mentioning (like those above)) is that you seldom end up with more than a single template per type. as a result you may start wondering about the whole concept of separating type and template. Well the answer is that with template types that encapsulate more complex stuff (eg a list template type) you will soon find that there are several different templates possible that all fit this type. but even with such declaration thingies you sometime want to provide more than one template, for example, to offer different styles of declaration. So instead of the template TeX (of type hyphenation no noparams :-) above which is simply setting the low-level TeX parameters one could also offer the following template: \newcount\@@lefthyphenmin \DeclareTemplate{hyphenation}{std}{0}{ hyphen-disable-boolean =s {\ifnum\@@lefthyphenmin<\@M \@@lefthyphenmin\lefthyphenmin \lefthyphenmin\@M \fi} {\ifnum\@@lefthyphenmin>\z@ \lefthyphenmin\@@lefthyphenmin \fi}, hyphen-uppercase-boolean =s {\uchyph\@ne}{\uchyph\z@}, hyphen-discourage-boolean=s {\hyphenpenalty\@highpenalty \exhyphenpenalty\@highpenalty} {\hyphenpenalty\@lowpenalty \exhyphenpenalty\@lowpenalty}, } {\DoParameterAssignments} with instances like \DeclareInstance{hyphenation}{off}{std} {hyphen-disable-boolean = true} \DeclareInstance{hyphenation}{on}{std} {hyphen-disable-boolean = false, hyphen-uppercase-boolean = true, hyphen-discourage-boolean = false} \DeclareInstance{hyphenation}{discourage}{std} {hyphen-disable-boolean = false, hyphen-uppercase-boolean = true, hyphen-discourage-boolean = true} ============================= confused everybody enough? hope not :-) here is another way to look at it via some example: below is a user declaration for a description environment. \DeclareDocumentEnvironment {description} { } {\UseInstance{list}{description} \NoValue \NoValue \BooleanFalse } { \EndThisList } \DeclareInstance{list}{description}{vertical-std}{ ... } what do we see here? a) An instance of type "list" is called which seems to take three mandatory arguments (all of which have preset values, ie \NoValue \NoValue and \BooleanFalse) b) There is this strange \EndThisList c) The instance description is declared using a template "vertical-std" In fact this is an example of the list template type as described in the Vancouver talk as follows: To format list structures such as \texttt{itemize} there might be a template type called \texttt{list} with the following characteristics: \begin{itemize} \item Starts a list structure embedding it into the surrounding formatting \item Sets up a command |\ListItem| (one argument) to start a new `item' of the list \item Sets up a command |\EndThisList| to finish the current list structure properly \item Expects three arguments with the following semantics: \begin{itemize} \item String to calculate width of left indentation, or |\NoValue| \item Symbol/string to be used as item label, or |\NoValue| \item Boolean to denote whether or not numbering continues \end{itemize} \end{itemize} in other words, not only the semantics of the three arguments are part of the template type but also the fact that each such template is supposed to set up \EndThisList and \ListItem. And of course this has to be the case if i want to be able to replace the instance "description" above with an different declaration which might look like this: \DeclareInstance{list}{description}{inline}{ ... } While the template "vertical-std" produces lists which look like current LaTeX lists (ie vertically oriented ...) the "inline" template would contain code that makes a run-in list ie one that is horizontally oriented. All this would only work if both templates take the same number of arguments (and interpret them in the same way) and in addition also behave otherwise compatible, ie they both have to set up \EndThisList etc --- thus the template type is the sum of all such characteristics. hope all this helps a little bit in understanding what we try to provide frank ps who is long-winded??? :-) 7-Oct-1999 12:16:47-GMT,9748;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16087 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 06:16:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA21345; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:20:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444795 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:20:05 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21334 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:20:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin367.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.67]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23950 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:21:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00712; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:58:23 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199910011238.OAA00640@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910041250.NAA27424@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199910070958.LAA00712@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:58:23 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910041250.NAA27424@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> James, i already started to explain my understanding of template types in the reply to Lars and perhaps this has already answered your questions, but anyway let me elaborate a bit more on mandatory arguments viz keyword attributes etc > About lists, and especially about the what it means for the arguments of > a template type to have the same interpretation. > > Suppose the template type has a width argument. This could be used for > the width of a box to set the list in, or a template which set each item > in a cell of a table, the width argument could be used to specify the > width of those cells. Is this within what is understood by type > arguments having the same interpretation? What if the widht was taken > as the width of the the label? as i said, instances with the same template type (whether or not are derived from the same template) should be exchangeable without making the processing of a document blow up or produce rubbish. With that in mind the the above examples should most certainly not be the same type. In other words the fact that an argument takes a dimension is not the only identifying characteristic for that argument within an informal type declaration. In addition the interpretation of this dimension is crucial. Thus if one template would interpret that argument as the width of the label but another one would interpret it as the width of the whole line or the width of the text then you would get very strange results if you replace one such instance with another, wouldn't you? So suppose we define the template type list with the following characteristics (beside others not listed): Expects three arguments with the following semantics: \begin{itemize} \item String to calculate width of left indentation, or |\NoValue| \item Symbol/string to be used as item label, or |\NoValue| \item Boolean to denote whether or not numbering continues \end{itemize} if so the first argument if not \NoValue would determine the left indentation (eg something like the available space for the label). Thus the following declaration would be an extended description environment \DeclareDocumentEnvironment{description} { o } { \UseInstance{list}{description} {#1} \NoValue \BooleanFalse } { \EndThisList } where the user in a document could go like this \begin{description}[longlabel] \item[short] ... \item[longlabel] ... \item[other] ... \end{description} in other words the user overwrites the default left indentation with a value calculated from the string "longlabel". Now such an overwrite possibility might make sense for vertical oriented lists (like current LaTeX description lists) but if the designer decides that all such lists are horizontally oriented then that argument suddenly doesn't serve any purpose any more as there is no left indentation. Now one could argue that those two templates are so much different that they can't possibly form a replacement for each other (it is perhaps a border case indeed). However I think they can and should have the same template type and for this reason we allow one derivation from that rule that arguments of templates with the same type have to have the same interpretation. The exception is that an argument value might be ignored completely (if the informal template type description says so). That is to say all templates of a given type have to parse the same number of arguments but in certain cases they are allowed to disregard some of the parsed values completely. What they are not allowed is to use the supplied value for a different purpose. ============================================== so when should be something a mandatory argument to a template (and thus part of the template type) and when is it better or more correct to put something into the keyword attributes of some template itself? there is no simple answer for this. i tried to give some reasoning on these template type arguments when i wrote the documentation for template.dtx. here is another look at it. - clearly everything that is variable data coming from the document source has to be passed to the template as a mandatory argument, eg if we try to define a template type for say headings we have to pass the heading text as a mandatory argument. i don't think there is much discussion about that. in case of headings same would be true for data going to the toc and data going to a potential running head entry (in current latex those two are combined but this is not really what you necessarily want) - sometimes there are some logical facts about the data in the document that you like to pass to the template in which case this has to happen through mandatory arguments as well. for example enumeration lists might logically continue a previous list or start enumeration again --- this one models all kind of lists in a single type (which might be a mistake conceptually) then an information about whether or not the current list continues a previous enumeration should be passed to the template as a flag of some sort (in fact this is just variable document data if one thinks about this, after all it is a logical fact about the document that the current list continues a previous one) - any layout decisions should normally go into the keyword attributes of the individual template unless you want for some reason provide user level overwrites. if so you need to pass either user given formatting values or flags down to the template The really difficult one is the last item, ie which (if any) of the layout decisions of some template should be modifiable from within the document source? A person whose soul is pure would perhaps argue "none" :-) but life is short and people like a pragmatic approach towards solving of problems. So my approach is to put in the template types a number of such "layout oriented" arguments if it seems that inclusion solves a large number of modification requests in a wide variety of different cases --- what a nonsense sentence :-) but i hope you get the the essence of what i'm trying to say. problem is to find those essential overwrites (and clearly people will have different opinions on what is essential and what not) for example, the above three arguments are those that i have come up in the context of lists but there are probably others which perhaps should get added, eg an argument which receives a value like "default" "tight" "compact" and does modify the spacing characteristics of the list in question. Maybe - maybe not ... this was what i meant when i said please think about what you would consider being an appropriate template type for lists / footnotes / ... so please ... :-) =========================================================== returning to James post: > Another thought, lists with one-line items look very widely spaced, > especially when used with non-zero parskip and double spacing. A > variant form with tighter spacing, and the item text set in an hbox for > such lists might be a good idea. this might be something which should be controlled from the document or alternatively one could think of a template which is internally smarter and allows the designer to specify different spacing values depending on the number of items in the list. on the other hand, the current latex list setup is simply wrong in the sense that if you change \parskip to a positive value you have to adjust all list spacing anyway as parskip is always added to the values (something which should not be the case) so perhaps is this not really a problem in a properly designed setup frank 8-Oct-1999 16:09:53-GMT,3180;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20041 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:09:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA23626; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:48:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445242 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:48:54 +0200 Received: from abel.math.umu.se (abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23619 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:48:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by abel.math.umu.se (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA12357 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:48:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se References: <199910041250.NAA27424@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199910011238.OAA00640@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910041250.NAA27424@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id RAA23620 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:50:23 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910070958.LAA00712@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Please pardon my asking a (probably) stupid question, but what does a horizontal list look like? Could it just be a part of a normal paragraph where something is listed, e.g. ... (using \vbox or \vtop or \vcenter or \valign or \vadjust or \insert). or is it understood that there is some clear separation between the items, like in the TeXbook's example of footnotes-in-a-paragraph (p. 398, at least in my copy)? Lars Hellström PS: I've given some thought to the footnote template type, and so far I haven't been able to come up with anything that would require more than the single argument for the footnote text. (A footnote document commands might well take more than one argument---it could for example take an argument specifying who's comment this is, in the case of footnotes being used for commentry to a fixed text---but that would rather be used to select the right template instance.) On the other hand, there are so many possibilities for what should happen to the argument that I doubt you'll get by with one (or even two) base templates. 8-Oct-1999 20:14:42-GMT,4438;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25498 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:14:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA08373; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:01:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445320 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:01:44 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08359 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:01:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin415.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.115]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14296 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:03:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA01185; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:40:27 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199910041250.NAA27424@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199910011238.OAA00640@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910070958.LAA00712@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Message-ID: <199910081840.UAA01185@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:40:27 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Lars, > Please pardon my asking a (probably) stupid question, but what does a > horizontal list look like? not a stupid question. in most cases you see only enumeration lists as horzontal list as in consider the options a) a \vbox b) an \hbox c) \vcenter which can all be applied at this point ... > or is it understood that there is some clear separation between the items, > like in the TeXbook's example of footnotes-in-a-paragraph (p. 398, at least > in my copy)? that would be another example. sometimes you also find itemize like lists of this type (typically in case of sublist, ie not really running within a normal paragraph text. > PS: I've given some thought to the footnote template type, and so far I > haven't been able to come up with anything that would require more than the > single argument for the footnote text. (A footnote document commands might well, current latex already has two for \footnotetext (one being the text and one being the number to use or \NoValue) i'm not really into critical edition type of footnote handling but perhaps there are things that might be helpful to provide > well take more than one argument---it could for example take an argument > specifying who's comment this is, in the case of footnotes being used for > commentry to a fixed text---but that would rather be used to select the > right template instance.) > On the other hand, there are so many > possibilities for what should happen to the argument that I doubt you'll > get by with one (or even two) base templates. in that case please think about specs for the base templates (not necessarily the implementations though that is fun as well) that you can think would be sensible, ie what should they do (the templates) or more exactly what layout should they provide and what could be possible attributes in each case. i have in fact gone half through this excerise last night and implemented a few rough drafts and i intend to show them for discussion end of the month as i will get away for a short vacation tomorrow at 4:00 in the meantime thoughts on such base templates and their attributes would be welcome (i didn't got very far last night) best frank 8-Oct-1999 20:14:42-GMT,4438;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25498 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:14:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA08373; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:01:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445320 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:01:44 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08359 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:01:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin415.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.115]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14296 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:03:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA01185; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:40:27 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199910041250.NAA27424@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199910011238.OAA00640@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910070958.LAA00712@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Message-ID: <199910081840.UAA01185@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:40:27 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Lars, > Please pardon my asking a (probably) stupid question, but what does a > horizontal list look like? not a stupid question. in most cases you see only enumeration lists as horzontal list as in consider the options a) a \vbox b) an \hbox c) \vcenter which can all be applied at this point ... > or is it understood that there is some clear separation between the items, > like in the TeXbook's example of footnotes-in-a-paragraph (p. 398, at least > in my copy)? that would be another example. sometimes you also find itemize like lists of this type (typically in case of sublist, ie not really running within a normal paragraph text. > PS: I've given some thought to the footnote template type, and so far I > haven't been able to come up with anything that would require more than the > single argument for the footnote text. (A footnote document commands might well, current latex already has two for \footnotetext (one being the text and one being the number to use or \NoValue) i'm not really into critical edition type of footnote handling but perhaps there are things that might be helpful to provide > well take more than one argument---it could for example take an argument > specifying who's comment this is, in the case of footnotes being used for > commentry to a fixed text---but that would rather be used to select the > right template instance.) > On the other hand, there are so many > possibilities for what should happen to the argument that I doubt you'll > get by with one (or even two) base templates. in that case please think about specs for the base templates (not necessarily the implementations though that is fun as well) that you can think would be sensible, ie what should they do (the templates) or more exactly what layout should they provide and what could be possible attributes in each case. i have in fact gone half through this excerise last night and implemented a few rough drafts and i intend to show them for discussion end of the month as i will get away for a short vacation tomorrow at 4:00 in the meantime thoughts on such base templates and their attributes would be welcome (i didn't got very far last night) best frank 17-Oct-1999 15:00:32-GMT,2386;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19219 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:00:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA01960; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:46:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444888 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:46:58 +0200 Received: from snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.31]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01953 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:46:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08260 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:48:37 +0100 (BST) Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27438 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:48:36 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199910171448.PAA27438@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:48:36 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Expandable templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Hellstr=F6m?= at "Oct 15, 99 05:11:24 pm" Templates defined with the current mechanism aren't fully expandable. I think the documentation claims they are robust, but I get errors when I put instances in an \edef. There are some situations which templates seem very suited for which need to be fully expandable. Is this realizable? James 18-Oct-1999 9:31:05-GMT,2218;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA10705 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 03:31:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21226; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:09:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444975 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:09:36 +0200 Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21213 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:09:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id KAA17744; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:07:22 +0100 (BST) References: <199910171448.PAA27438@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199910180907.KAA17744@nag.co.uk> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:07:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: Expandable templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910171448.PAA27438@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> (message from James Kilfiger on Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:48:36 +0100) > but I get errors when I put instances in an \edef. The number of commands that work in an edef is vanishingly small;-) Probably (instances of) templates could be (or perhaps already are!) robust via the normal latex \protect mechanism, in which case they should survive the latex equivalent of \edef which is \protected@edef. There is no way to make an instance of a template expandable in general as the key setting in the template call are typically low level register assignments in TeX, and they are not expandable. David 21-Oct-1999 20:45:48-GMT,8730;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10128 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:45:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA02779; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:23:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445447 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:23:37 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02772 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:23:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin374.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.74]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15829 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:25:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00546; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:01:30 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199910171448.PAA27438@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199910180907.KAA17744@nag.co.uk> Message-ID: <199910211901.VAA00546@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:01:30 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Robustness (was Re: Expandable templates) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910180907.KAA17744@nag.co.uk> David Carlisle wrote in reply to James Kilfiger: > > but I get errors when I put instances in an \edef. > > The number of commands that work in an edef is vanishingly small;-) > Probably (instances of) templates could be (or perhaps already are!) > robust via the normal latex \protect mechanism, in which case they > should survive the latex equivalent of \edef which is > \protected@edef. instances of templates should be robust if they are not we should make them or at least their call through a standard mechanism like \UseInstance should be robust. this needs checking but is not significantly difficult to provide. more difficult might be to make a the use of \UseTemplate robust since that might contain arbitary code in its key/value segment. > There is no way to make an instance of a template expandable in general > as the key setting in the template call are typically low level register > assignments in TeX, and they are not expandable. this answer that template instances can't be expandable (with reasonable effort --- disregarding that (i think) Alan Jeffrey once proved that one can implement everything in TeX's mouth if one is prepared to wait long enough for the answer (this is really the turing machine argument to please don't argue that machines get faster :-) but since the question of why does a command that is claimed to be "robust" fails in an edef and we had a similar "bug report (pr/3084)" just recently i appended my reply back then below since i think this is of some interest. questions: a) anybody having any idea whatsoever to deal with this problem of robustness other than LaTeX currently does? (conceptually i mean) b) if the current scheme is basically sound (and i think it is) would be trapping \edef a sensible approach, ie a plain edef would effectively run \protected@edef and a code writer who really would like to use a vanilla \edef for speed reasons would have to use something like \unprotected@edef? This would clearly help in cases like 3084 or in James' usage. but it would slow down processing a lot if packages and the latex kernel are not adjusted accordingly (the kernel currently contains 175 \[xe]def's in places where we thought we know what the input is going to be --- all such places would suddenly no longer run a primitive but a macro which in turn does some additional processing) c) there are some theoretical possibilities for a command to find out on its own whether or not it is in a dangerous context (such as \edef) but i haven't figured out a single solution so far that would run in acceptable time (assuming that about every command would need to make this check over an over again this is a significant overhead compared to the current approach where the meaning of \protect is externally changed so that there is no or nearly no penalty for testing the current state for the individual command) d) is the current concept okay except for the problem that one needs to educate people better about the use and misuse of \edef compared to \protected@edef ? this is the current approach taken and somewhat the opposite to b) if somebody would have ideas for a) or more specifically c) which is a subclass of a) i guess this would be great. if somebody would have a heart and would try to test b) on a large number of documents that would be great too and report about timing differences and failures found; essentially it means running the document with a format that contains additionally something like \let\@@edef\edef \def\protected@edef{ } \let\edef\protected@edef and ditto for \xdef and \protected@xdef and perhaps a few other commands in that part of the kernel if somebody would feel like writing a tugboat article on the current \protect i guess the TUB editor would be glad and so would i and probably a lot of people since this is a poorly understood concept (there is a bit of intro docu written long time ago in ltdefns.dtx but i unfortunately didn't got very far) have a go --- ( not just silently listen to this list ) frank ---- from pr/3084; see www.latex-project.org for the whole pr Subject: Re: latex/3084: New add@accent definition prohibits \edefs Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:31:38 +0200 Bernard, > >The new definition of add@accent is supposed to keep correct > >spacefactor's after accented uppercase letters. The cost is > >that a command like \edef\agrave{\`a} will not work as > >expected (with respect to spacefactors). > >More importantly, this makes the babel package fail, > >and possibly others. you are right that the new definition of the internal accent handling made babel fail or rather made its use inside a straight \edef fail. problem is that LaTeX *never* supported arbitrary input inside straight \edef's. LaTeX goes a long way to make most commands robust (and if fragile provides \protect to protect them). However to make this work, LaTeX commands who accepts arbitrary input in their arguments are never allowed to pass them straight to an \edef. Instead they have to pass them to \protected@edef which defines \protect suitably to make everything work as expected. (note that in a straight \edef \protect does not help you as its default definition is \relax!) within standard LaTeX the new defnition of \` and friends still work perfectly in all circumstances. the fact that inside babel \edef was used in a place where \protected@edef should have been used was an oversight and is corrected. of course that doesn't help if other packages have commands that receive user input and pass it to \edef. but there is nothing that one can do about this other than fixing those packages. the fact that the accent commands are now failing inside such commands is a pity, but i don't think the conclusion can be to keep them broken in other respects just because there are potentially some broken packages that do not implement the protect mechanism of LaTeX correctly. it is simply a fact that to get the space factor right in case of \`A one has to make an assignment and assignments are not expandable in TeX. so to make them work you have to avoid putting them into a primitive \edef. and even if they would not have that restriction and would work inside \edef there are plenty of other commands that have the same kind of problem inside an \edef. so the conclusion can only be: DONT USE \edef unless you absolutely control its content. as i said, babel is now fixed again in this regard. hope this explains the general problem behind the anomaly you detected. best wishes frank 22-Oct-1999 16:33:55-GMT,3056;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07793 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:33:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA19801; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:24:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445311 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:24:38 +0200 Received: from ssmtp02.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA19785 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:24:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [195.5.70.74] ([195.5.70.74]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FK0IYS04.I03 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:25:40 +0200 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199910221624.SAA19785@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:25:59 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Re: Robustness (was Re: Expandable templates) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank, >Bernard, > > > >The new definition of add@accent is supposed to keep correct > > >spacefactor's after accented uppercase letters. The cost is > > >that a command like \edef\agrave{\`a} will not work as > > >expected (with respect to spacefactors). > > >More importantly, this makes the babel package fail, > > >and possibly others. [...] >within standard LaTeX the new defnition of \` and friends still work >perfectly >in all circumstances. the fact that inside babel \edef was used in a place >where \protected@edef should have been used was an oversight and is >corrected. The "expandability" of \add@accent has not changed. It is still expandable, if its definition is: \def\add@accent#1#2{{% \setbox\@tempboxa\hbox{#2% \global\mathchardef\accent@spacefactor\spacefactor}% \accent#1 #2}\spacefactor\accent@spacefactor} The problem is that \accent@spacefactor is not yet defined in \edef's prior to an actual use of any accent. That is a LaTeX bug which can be fixed by letting \accent@spacefactor to \relax or by defining it with \mathchardef (in both cases it expands into itself). Example: \documentclass{minimal} \edef\agrave{\`a} % Doesn't work \setbox0\hbox{\`a} % We use an accent \edef\agrave{\`a} % Now it does work (but \agrave looks horrible! :-) ) Regards Javier Bezos 25-Oct-1999 20:32:37-GMT,5036;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04855 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:32:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA03372; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:18:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445893 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:18:21 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03365 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:18:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin353.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.53]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28933 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:20:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA00488; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:40:02 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199910221624.SAA19785@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <199910251840.UAA00488@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:40:02 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Robustness (was Re: Expandable templates) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910221624.SAA19785@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Javier, > The "expandability" of \add@accent has not changed. It is still > expandable, if its definition is: > > \def\add@accent#1#2{{% > \setbox\@tempboxa\hbox{#2% > \global\mathchardef\accent@spacefactor\spacefactor}% > \accent#1 #2}\spacefactor\accent@spacefactor} > > The problem is that \accent@spacefactor is not yet defined in \edef's > prior to an actual use of any accent. That is a LaTeX bug which can be > fixed by letting \accent@spacefactor to \relax or by defining > it with \mathchardef (in both cases it expands into itself). this is an interesting point (what you are saying is some assignments are harmless as they do not fail horribly even though they do not expand really and all we have to do in that particular case is making sure that we keep the status of that macro expansion this way). agreed, but as you will be aware this wasn't really the point that i was trying to make (and it doesn't make my point invalid either). the point was that there are macros containing dangerous assignments (mostly internal \def's or \let's) which will die horribly if put into an \edef and my claim is that without the LaTeX protection mechanism (which essentially prohibits the use of \edef everywhere where the content of \edef is not fully controlled by the macro writer) there is no cure for this problem: a) you need macros containing dangerous assignments (containing \let say) b) current coding practice in TeX does need the functionality of \edef now the LaTeX solution right now is to say: don't use edef use \protected@edef and friends and all is well. my question was, are there better approaches? (the plain TeX approach by the way is: know your macros and don't use them in a way that you end up expanding such a dangerous beast inside an \edef :-) coming back to your example: > Example: > > \documentclass{minimal} > > \edef\agrave{\`a} % Doesn't work > \setbox0\hbox{\`a} % We use an accent > \edef\agrave{\`a} % Now it does work (but \agrave looks horrible! :-) ) run like that it unfortunately doesn't show your point but rather shows mine as you will get: [ some tracing omitted ] \?\` ->\UseTextAccent {OT1}\` \UseTextAccent #1#2#3->\let \@curr@enc \cf@encoding \@use@text@encoding {#1}#2{ \@use@text@encoding \@curr@enc #3}\@use@text@encoding \@curr@enc #1<-OT1 #2<-\` #3<-\fi {undefined} ! Undefined control sequence. \UseTextAccent #1#2#3->\let \@curr@enc \cf@encoding \@use@text@encoding {#1}... in other words we never reach the case of the \accent@spacefactor but die in \UseTextAccent which already contains a \let and does expand in this way if used in \edef in contrast to \protected@edef (where it would behave correctly) so i think my questions are still valid and i wonder if i get some more feedback best frank ps which does not mean that we shouldn't fix the kernel to have a definition for \accent@spacefactor 25-Oct-1999 22:08:13-GMT,6009;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07662 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:08:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA13663; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:53:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446000 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:53:18 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13650 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:53:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin398.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.98]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA30775 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:54:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00837; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 00:03:41 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199910041250.NAA27424@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199910011238.OAA00640@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910070958.LAA00712@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910081840.UAA01185@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Message-ID: <199910252203.AAA00837@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 00:03:41 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: footnote templates (was Experimental `template' interface code) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Lars (and everybody else listening in but keeping unfortunately silent) > >well, current latex already has two for \footnotetext (one being the text > >and > >one being the number to use or \NoValue) > > I would rather have thought that the number should be taken from a counter > that was managed by the template itself, i.e., the template has one key for > name of counter to use and some of the keys which control formatting should > (indirectly) refer to this counter. This makes more sense to me, since > there is no point in having footnote numbers assigned in any other way than > in sequence. right, that would be the normal case, but you might want to allow to have via user manipulation offer to manually freeze the counter value. however in most cases the value passed would indeed be \NoValue indicating to use the internal counter. there are some cases where this is useful (and they are not only for technical reasons) if one does offer such a possibility (in principle) then it has to be offered by the template type to be available in each instance. > On the other hand, I have now managed to come up with something which, if > it is to be handled by footnote templates, definately should become an > additional argument to the template. Consider the situation that a LaTeX > document containing footnotes is to be typeset as some sort of hypertext. > What is then the most convenient (for the reader) thing to do with the > footnotes? I would think it is to make links for them (click on the link, > get the footnote text on screen). The clickable area of a link in hypertext > is, by convention, longer than the one or two characters used for a > footnote number, and hence a footnote template that typesets footnotes this > way would need an additional "text to make the link text" argument. that is an interesting one. let's forget for a second the template side of this, how would you consider providing an interface for that on the LaTeX level? this is a serious \footnote[question]{Like this? which would of course be incompatible with the current interface.} ---------------------------- here are two more which i was wondering if they should get included: - should refid attributes be passed as arguments, eg instead of the current custom in LaTeX which requires something like \footnote{\label{foo} ...} pass a label name via one argument to the template (how or if this is implemented on the LaTeX user front end would be a different matter) - more something to solve a technical problem (because it is rather difficult in TeX): have one argument that is a boolean and states that the current footnote is one in a row of footnotes which belong together example: text text\footnote{first}\footnote{second} in most case this would be supposed to come out as 1, 2 text text and not as 12 text text as it would in current LaTeX. now please don't tell me that \footnote could easily scan for a \footnote following. i know, but how do i specify this if we separate frontend (ie \footnote declared via something like the xparse package from the typesetting declaration) perhaps the answer is to extend the xparse package to allow specification of such extended parsing for tokens like \footnote but then again the result of the parsing would need to be passed on to the processing template and that would then mean passing something like a boolean to it. comments? ideas? counter-arguments? ---------------------------- > [snip] not getting to the rest tonight (getting rather tired by now) good night frank 26-Oct-1999 13:14:12-GMT,5278;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26483 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:14:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA21332; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:50:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445524 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:50:14 +0200 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21323 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:50:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18241 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA08223 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <199910261251.IAA08223@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:51:57 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: footnote templates (was Experimental `template' interface code) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L (Perhaps some who are quiet are busy or do not know quite what to say. I don't think that the silence indicates a lack of interest.) Inasmuch as I have never written a package or a style and, therefore, do not have a serious grasp of the issues, I am nonetheless interested in the hierarchy of function that you are implementing, and I do want to see it exploited fully. I suspect that some of the gains over 2E achieved this way correspond to gains that can be had with SGML/XML pre-processing from a language that is LaTeX-like. That is, there is more than one way to cut the cake. While I have been focused on modeling author-level LaTeX, not always as closely as possible, I wonder if it might be useful for somebody to think about modeling in SGML or XML a LaTeX package language. (Just a thought.) Frank Mittelbach writes: > let's forget for a second the template side of this, how would you consider > providing an interface for that on the LaTeX level? > > this is a serious \footnote[question]{Like this? which would of course be > incompatible with the current interface.} In my prototype I began with a command \anch[href="http://www.ctan.org"]{CTAN} where the option has a much stricter string-like variable=string (possibly repeated) content model, a model not fully expressible in dtd language, but the argument can take inline markup. *ML processing of the variable=string pairs is keyed on the variable name. So href is an external ref, iref an internal ref to a \label, and fref a footnote ref, ... (others could be added). For href the value string is the url, which is set in strict LaTeX as a footnote to the argument. For fref the value string is the footnote text, which in HTML goes in a list of footnotes at the bottom of the doc. For iref, the value string corresponds to HTML "#location" that is set in LaTeX as a \cite. I might later add jref for a ref to another part of the same document that is not quite technically internal. Later I decided to add ordinary \footnote even though \anch provides the same thing. And I decided to save the author time by providing \urlanch{http://www.ctan.org} . Here the argument is a url string that is set in LaTeX with \verb, which enables me to use the somewhat shady character `~' in a url, which I cannot do in an href option for \anch since that goes into a regular LaTeX footnote (and \string~ is not quite what I consider regular LaTeX, anyway). One of the points here is that somebody who does not like my choices can easily make changes to my perl. Side effects will not usually be a problem. > text text\footnote{first}\footnote{second} > > in most case this would be supposed to come out as > > 1, 2 > text text > > and not as > > 12 > text text > > as it would in current LaTeX. > > now please don't tell me that \footnote could easily scan for a \footnote > following. i know, but how do i specify this if we separate frontend (ie > \footnote declared via something like the xparse package from the typesetting > declaration) >From my point of view one wants different types of "macro" declarations that can be made at various stages, and one wants to have very clearly laid out rules about what can be done with each. That said, what about giving the issue to the authors with something new for this purpose such as \footnotesequence ? -- Bill 26-Oct-1999 16:52:12-GMT,6027;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01962 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:52:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA22355; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 18:40:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445750 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 18:40:33 +0200 Received: from abel.math.umu.se (abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22317 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 18:40:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by abel.math.umu.se (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA27992 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 18:37:56 +0200 (CEST) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se References: <199910041250.NAA27424@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199910011238.OAA00640@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910070958.LAA00712@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910081840.UAA01185@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id SAA22323 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 18:40:29 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: footnote templates (was Experimental `template' interface code) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910252203.AAA00837@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Frank, > > >well, current latex already has two for \footnotetext (one being the text > > >and > > >one being the number to use or \NoValue) > > > > I would rather have thought that the number should be taken from a counter > > that was managed by the template itself, i.e., the template has one key for > > name of counter to use and some of the keys which control formatting should > > (indirectly) refer to this counter. This makes more sense to me, since > > there is no point in having footnote numbers assigned in any other way than > > in sequence. > >right, that would be the normal case, but you might want to allow to have via >user manipulation offer to manually freeze the counter value. however in most >cases the value passed would indeed be \NoValue indicating to use the internal >counter. A technical case where I later realized it might be needed is that of footnotes saved for later typesetting by the template. In that case the number has already been assigned. [snip] > > On the other hand, I have now managed to come up with something which, if > > it is to be handled by footnote templates, definately should become an > > additional argument to the template. Consider the situation that a LaTeX > > document containing footnotes is to be typeset as some sort of hypertext. > > What is then the most convenient (for the reader) thing to do with the > > footnotes? I would think it is to make links for them (click on the link, > > get the footnote text on screen). The clickable area of a link in hypertext > > is, by convention, longer than the one or two characters used for a > > footnote number, and hence a footnote template that typesets footnotes this > > way would need an additional "text to make the link text" argument. > >that is an interesting one. > >let's forget for a second the template side of this, how would you consider >providing an interface for that on the LaTeX level? > >this is a serious \footnote[question]{Like this? which would of course be >incompatible with the current interface.} Perhaps. But I suspect that a more likely setup is that such linkfootnotes would be handled by some special command (\lfootnote ?) and the ordinary \footnote would make the number the link text. >---------------------------- > >here are two more which i was wondering if they should get included: > >- should refid attributes be passed as arguments, eg instead of the current > custom in LaTeX which requires something like > \footnote{\label{foo} ...} > pass a label name via one argument to the template (how or if this is > implemented on the LaTeX user front end would be a different matter) Is this a grouping thing in current LaTeX? In general it seems to be possible to handle at the user level command level, i.e., \footnote could say \UseInstance{footnote} ... % Contains \refstepcounter \label{#n} >- more something to solve a technical problem (because it is rather difficult > in TeX): have one argument that is a boolean and states that the current > footnote is one in a row of footnotes which belong together > example: > > text text\footnote{first}\footnote{second} > >in most case this would be supposed to come out as > > 1, 2 > text text > >and not as > > 12 > text text > >as it would in current LaTeX. This is an interesting one! It touches another difficulty regarding link footnotes, namely that there may be punctuation which should be placed between the text made a link and the footnote number. Anyway, I think the boolean Frank suggests here should definately be an argument of footnote templates. [snip] Lars Hellström 27-Oct-1999 10:22:29-GMT,4133;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA26976 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 04:22:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA22981; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:07:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444934 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:07:57 +0200 Received: from ssmtp01.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22952 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:07:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [195.5.76.210] ([195.5.76.210]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FK9AS206.41K for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:07:14 +0200 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199910271007.MAA22952@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:07:32 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Re: Robustness (more) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank, > Example: > > \documentclass{minimal} > > \edef\agrave{\`a} % Doesn't work > \setbox0\hbox{\`a} % We use an accent > \edef\agrave{\`a} % Now it does work (but \agrave looks horrible! :-) ) My apologies -- there is a missing line. It should read: \documentclass{minimal} \normalsize \edef\agrave{\`a} % Doesn't work \setbox0\hbox{\`a} % We use an accent \edef\agrave{\`a} % Now it does work (but \agrave looks horrible! :-) ) since minimal, unlike other classes, doesn't use \normalsize (it just defines it). Of course, without \normalsize \cf@encoding remains empty and \OT1-cmd calls \?\`. Anyway, I didn't intend to make a point against \protect, but just to note that there was a bug in the LaTeX kernel. As far as \protect is concerned, I wonder if bad designed packages should be fixed from the LaTeX core. My main trouble with \protect is of a different nature. I think that the expansion of a protected command should be the command itself without the preceding \protect. Sometimes it is necessary to fetch the next token (that's not the LaTeX way, but sometimes is the only solution) and the \protect can be obtrusive. Of course, we may say something like: get next token if it is \protect go to beginning else do something fi but that's a bit annoying, and sometimes doesn't work because the fragile variant--that preceded by \protect--has a different name. In other words, if we make robust a command, we might make fail another command. This problem led me sometime ago to investigate an alternative to \protect, with no success. But a small (perhaps not so small) change perhaps could increase the robustness at this respect. Instead of protecting the fragile command, we could protect the command itself. I mean something similar to: \def\protected{% \ifcase\protect@status % a label depending on the context \expandafter\noexpand % case protected \or \expandafter\string % case output \or \expandafter\doitnow % case typeset \fi} \def\doitnow#1{\csname fragile\string#1\endcsname} \def\foo{\protected\foo} \@namedef{fragile\string\foo}{... the actual definition of foo ...} This is the basic idea, which must be improved. This is conceptually the current procedure implemented in a different way, which means, of course, that it doesn't make \protected@edef unnecessary. (That's just a digression on the main topic.) Regards Javier bezos 27-Oct-1999 15:32:33-GMT,9758;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04158 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:32:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA02362; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:12:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445244 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:12:12 +0200 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02342 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:12:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FK900E02OW9RW@sun06.ams.org> for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:12:09 -0400 (EDT) MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Lines: 238 References: <199910171448.PAA27438@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199910180907.KAA17744@nag.co.uk> <199910211901.VAA00546@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Message-ID: <199910271512.RAA02342@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:12:09 -0400 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Comments: Resent-From: mjd@ams.org Comments: Originally-From: Michael John Downes From: "Michael J. Downes" Subject: Re: Robustness (was Re: Expandable templates) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Frank Mittelbach's message of Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:01:30 +0200 Frank Mittelbach writes: > questions: > > a) anybody having any idea whatsoever to deal with this problem of robustness > other than LaTeX currently does? (conceptually i mean) There are various reasons for the expansion done by LaTeX on user-supplied text, but there is (I think) only one purpose for which the expansion is really indispensable: Getting the current element number when preparing to make a running head or toc entry. I.e., when copying material for multiple use. [When the problem is posed in this way it can be seen that another way around would be to write some kind of \ref-like string instead of the actual number, assuming that the generation of labels could be suitably automated---and that string-pool/hash-table limits were not a problem.] The expansion done by \mark (for running heads) and \write (for table of contents) does not need to be applied to the title of a chapter or section, only to the section number---assuming that the user does not use commands in the titles that change their meaning during the course of the document. (If the chief reason for the current \protect mechanism is only to allow this seldom-used possibility then the cost is too high. There are other ways to reach the same ends. The switching from, e.g., \chaptername to \appendixname is the main counter-example here I think, but that can, and probably should, be taken care of by a separate mechanism. Some steps in this direction can already be seen in amsart.cls.) There is a well-known difficulty with \write, however. Non-immediate \write for writing .toc or index information does full expansion on its argument *at the time the page is shipped out* in order to get the correct page number. But no assignments can be done at this time, only expansion. Therefore the standard token-register method for keeping text unexpanded can't be applied to section titles. (For index terms the \index command reads the data with verbatim-like catcodes since the data does not need to be printed at its initial location, only written to the .idx file.) I guess what we really need is an e-TeX feature \unexpandedwrite that writes material without expansion, then a section title could be sent to the aux file by (a) pre-expanding the element number (b) applying \unexpandedwrite to everything except for the page number. [Maybe this is already in e-TeX? I don't remember.] However in the absence of an \unexpandedwrite primitive we can put the title in a macro and write the \meaning. I think this works for any material that doesn't include actual # tokens (which would get doubled), given that multiple-use text like section titles and figure captions already have the restriction that they cannot have internal catcode changes. I did a test file for this, see below. The idea of the test file is that that end-users never have to use \protect unless they put something fragile into a numbering macro like \thesection. I wrote "there is only one purpose for which the expansion is really indispensable"; \MakeUppercase might be cited as another application, but I think we really ought to look strongly into the possibility of making .vf files for uppercase fonts and ensuring that they get widely available, instead of continuing with the present edef mechanism (which is mainly done to insure that \aa gets expanded to \r{a} so that the "a" can be uppercased). Most applications really need \MakeTextUppercase, to skip over math and \ref and stuff like that, where the difficulties of the edef solution become more apparent. Michael Downes ======================================================================== \documentclass{book} \title{Expansion tests} \author{Michael Downes} \makeatletter \catcode`\_=10 \catcode`\ =9 \catcode\endlinechar=9 % First let's fix up the uses of \mark, that is easier than the toc stuff. \newtoks\@currentmark \def\markboth#1#2{% \global\@currentmark{{#1}{#2}} \xdef\@themark{\the\@currentmark}% For compatibility \mark{\the\@currentmark} \if@nobreak\ifvmode\nobreak\fi\fi } \def\@markright#1#2#3{ \global\@currentmark{{#1}{#3}} \xdef\@themark{\the\@currentmark} } \def\markright#1{ \expandafter\@markright\@themark{#1} \mark{\the\@currentmark} \if@nobreak\ifvmode\nobreak\fi\fi } % Need a better solution for \MakeUppercase. \let\MakeUppercase=\relax % It would be better if \addcontentsline had a separate argument for the % number. Lacking that, we have to scan "by hand" for \numberline. % % Typical usage: % % \addcontentsline{toc}{chapter} % {\numberline{chapnum}Title of this here chapter} % \def\addcontentsline#1#2#3{ \begingroup \def\@tempa##1\numberline##2##3\numberline##4\@nil{ \gdef\element@number{##2} \def\@tempb####1{\WriteTocEntry{#1}{#2}{####1}{##2}{##3}} } \@tempa#3\numberline{}{}\numberline\@nil \ifx\@empty\element@number \WriteTocEntry{#1}{#2}{}{}{#3} \else \expandafter\@tempb\csname#2name\endcsname \fi \endgroup } % Here is a better alternative for \addcontentsline: % % \WriteTocEntry{toc}{chapter}{\chaptername}{\thechapter}{Title of chapter ...} % \def\WriteTocEntry#1#2#3#4#5{ \begingroup \protected@xdef\element@number{#4} \endgroup \toks@\expandafter{#3} \@temptokena{#5} \toks\tw@\expandafter{\element@number} \edef\reserved@a{ \noexpand\addtocontentswithpage{#1}{ \noexpand\tocentry{#2} {\the\toks@}{\the\toks\tw@}{\the\@temptokena} } } \reserved@a } \def\fwrite{\@writefile} \long\def\addtocontents#1#2{ \def\reserved@a{#2} \edef\reserved@b{ \write\@auxout{ \string\fwrite{#1}{ \expandafter\strip@prefix\meaning\reserved@a } } } \reserved@b } % The \addtocontentswithpage function is similar to \addtocontents but % provides more separation between the parts that need different % expansion. % \long\def\addtocontentswithpage#1#2{ \def\reserved@a{#2} \edef\reserved@b{ \write\@auxout{ \string\fwrite{#1}{ \expandafter\strip@prefix\meaning\reserved@a {\noexpand\thepage} } } } \reserved@b } % For toc entries made with \WriteTocEntry we need something that % handles more arguments than \contentsline: % \def\tocentry#1#2#3#4#5{ \csname l@#1\endcsname{\numberline{#2\enspace #3}#4}{#5} } %% % Simplified, for testing: %% % %% \renewcommand{\numberline}[1]{\begingroup \bfseries#1.\endgroup\quad } %% %% \renewcommand*\l@chapter[2]{% %% \par %% \addpenalty{-\@highpenalty}% %% \addvspace{6pt plus1pt}% %% \begingroup \parfillskip0pt %% \noindent#1\nobreak\hfil \nobreak\hb@xt@\@pnumwidth{\hss #2}\par %% \endgroup %% \penalty\@highpenalty %% } \newcommand{\fragilecommand}{\relax\ifmmode Math\else Text\fi ?} \makeatother \catcode`\_=8 \catcode\endlinechar=5 \catcode`\ =10 \begin{document} \frontmatter \tableofcontents \chapter*{Preface \begin{math}\fragilecommand\end{math}} Some prefatory text. % Trying to send a fragile command to the toc without \protect: \addtocontents{toc}{\enlargethispage*{10pt}} \mainmatter \chapter{Title of a Chapter \begin{math}\fragilecommand\end{math}} Some text. \chapter{And Another Chapter \begin{math}\fragilecommand\end{math} Here} \markboth{Other Chapter \begin{math}\fragilecommand\end{math}} {Other Chapter \begin{math}\fragilecommand\end{math}} Some text. \begin{figure} \framebox[\columnwidth]{\rule{0pt}{5\baselineskip}} \caption{Here is a figure caption containing some fragile stuff: \begin{math}\fragilecommand\end{math}.} \end{figure} \backmatter \begin{thebibliography}{B} \bibitem{A} Joe Author, \textit{Some title}. \bibitem{B} Terry Berry, \textit{Another different title}. \end{thebibliography} \end{document} 28-Oct-1999 17:35:45-GMT,2082;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from tug.org (IDENT:daemon@tug.org [158.121.106.10]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12732 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:35:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by tug.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA25067 for pdftex-list; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:18:40 -0400 Received: from mailgateway1.uni-freiburg.de (mailgateway1.uni-freiburg.de [132.230.1.6]) by tug.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA25064 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:18:38 -0400 Received: from remote142-154.home.uni-freiburg.de [132.230.142.154] by mailgateway1.uni-freiburg.de with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 11gt7C-0003fd-00; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 19:13:31 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19991028190954.3fe7b5c4@localhost> X-Sender: oberdiek@localhost X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 19:09:54 +0100 To: Lubos Polerecky , pdfTeX From: Heiko Oberdiek Subject: Re: "click-substitution" of Ctrl+F In-Reply-To: <3818697A.CA4CA3F0@physics.dcu.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pdftex@tug.org Precedence: bulk At 16:19 28.10.1999 +0100, Lubos Polerecky wrote: > >I'm using pdflatex (pdfTeX (Web2C 7.3) 3.14159-0.13c) to produce a PDF >document from the LaTeX source. I'd like to search for some string >in the Acrobat reader. I know I can do it using the acroread menu >or by pressing Ctrl+F to invoke the Find window. > >Nevertheless, I wonder whether I could do it somewhat directly in the >LaTeX code, i.e., if I put some say graphics somewhere on the page then >if >I click on it in the PDF document viewed by acroread it would do the >same action. Example: %%% cut %%% test.tex %%% cut %%% \documentclass{article} \usepackage{hyperref} \begin{document} \noindent \Acrobatmenu{Find}{your graphics for find}\\ \Acrobatmenu{FindAgain}{your graphics for find again} \end{document} %%% cut %%% test.tex %%% cut %%% Yours sincerely Heiko 28-Oct-1999 17:41:00-GMT,3428;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12862 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:40:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA29140; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 19:28:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445572 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 19:28:36 +0200 Received: from snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.31]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA29117 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 19:28:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17936 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:28:26 +0100 (BST) Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA15046; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:28:24 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199910281728.SAA15046@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:28:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> from "William F. Hammond" at "Oct 1, 99 11:27:20 am" I was thinking rather vaguely about templates for sectional heading. I can think of at three style for authors to make sectional headings. As now, with section commands, with section evironments, and in a list-like manner. Templates for headings should be able of supporting classes that use a mixture of these styles. About the syntax for sectional commands, the most useful thing would be a separation of the numbering/nonumbering and table of contents options. A possible approach would be two true/false arguments, would a specification like {s o m s} be hard to remember and use? so perhaps the specification should be something like {s o m o}, the final argument defaulting to [t] for `table of contents' or [ht] for header and table of contents. (BTW this seems to show a general problem in Latex syntax when two or more indepedent optional arguments are required.) It would be useful if the templates allowed putting stuff before or after the section heading, useful for drawing rules and so on. Is this worthy of a an argument to the template. On another matter, how will collection instances be used? Will environments select a collection. Would it be useful if \begin{myenv} implictly called \UseCollection{myenv}. You could use this to prohibit sectional headings in floats, or \item outside of lists. Would this be within the expected use of collections. James 29-Oct-1999 16:27:15-GMT,8343;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02273 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:27:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA00308; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:52:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445251 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:51:57 +0200 Received: from gate.eds.de (gate.eds.de [205.191.194.5]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA00288 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:51:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com by gate.eds.de with SMTP id RAA23367 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for ); Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:52:47 +0200 Received: by n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA082952312; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:51:52 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <199910281728.SAA15046@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14361.49815.612920.201449@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:51:51 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910281728.SAA15046@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> James Kilfiger writes: > I was thinking rather vaguely about templates for sectional heading. > I can think of at three style for authors to make sectional headings. > As now, with section commands, with section evironments, and in a > list-like manner. Templates for headings should be able of supporting > classes that use a mixture of these styles. right, templates should support different styles of user syntax but then the separation between user syntax, via xparse for example, and actual formatting etc via the template mechanism does support this (or should). as far as section commands ala latex and section environments are concerned i don't see any difficulties. can you be a bit more specific in what you mean by "in a list-like manner"? e.g. show a syntax example of what you mean > About the syntax for sectional commands, the most useful thing would > be a separation of the numbering/nonumbering and table of contents > options. well i would be interested in hearing some additional opinions on that. questions: o should there be user level control on whether or not a heading has a number? (or are those things logically simply different tags and we are only used to saying \chapter* instead of \frontmatterchapter or whatever because nothing else was available) in other words is this really a flexibility that is needed/wanted or only there to hide the fact that some general functionality is missing? o assuming that such flexibility above is wanted, should it be possible to individually change - number on/off - heading in TOC (yes/no) - heading in running head (yes/no) clearly it does not make sense to have a numbered heading but not put it into the TOC if other headings of the same level appear in the TOC. on the other hand in many cases were a heading has no number (eg in front or back matter) it is still desirable to have a TOC entry, typical example being "Bibliography". Normally i would claim, however, that all this is something that really ought be decided by the document class rather than manually by the user (even though there might be a good argument to allow the user a manual overwrite possibility) as for the running head info i don't really see that there is any reason for the user to meddle with the decision to put some info in or not (on an individual basis that is). there is a good argument for enabling the user to input a text variation, eg if the heading title is rather long, there should be a possibility to specify a meaningful abbreviation, but i can't think of any case where i would like to say: "don't put the heading text for this heading into the running head but do so for all others". anybody having a good argument against this? or a good example when this is helpful/needed? > A possible approach would be two true/false arguments, would > a specification like {s o m s} be hard to remember and use? so perhaps > the specification should be something like {s o m o}, the final argument > defaulting to [t] for `table of contents' or [ht] for header and table > of contents. (BTW this seems to show a general problem in Latex syntax > when two or more indepedent optional arguments are required.) it is correct that the current LaTeX syntax is a bit poor in this respect but so it is. by separating xparse and templates we are free to provide a better front-end one day by using something else than xparse. as far as the template arguments are concerned i think they should be of type boolean here (how this is mapped to latex top level syntax is a different matter) my current idea about the template type heading is like this: #1 boolean number or not #2 boolean text into toc or not #3 boolean text into running head/foot or not #4 text heading text (required) #5 text/NoValue text for toc (use #4 if NoValue) #6 text/NoValue text for runhead (use #4 if NoValue) #7 text/NoValue supplementary text like a motto as i said above i'm not at all sure about the need or the "sensibility" of #2/#3 except perhaps for compatibility purposes to latex2e classes --- to tell me your thoughts. with the above type the current chapter command could look like this (ignoring most of the added functionality): \DeclareDocumentCommand \chapter { s o m } { \UseInstance{heading}{chapter} {#1} {#1} {#1} {#3} {#2} {#2} \NoValue } ie if thereis a star we suppress number toc and runhead (first three args) we pass the mandatory argument as the forth template arg and the optional goes into the variant for toc and runhead and we never typeset a motto who could we make the extended functionality available in latex like syntax? in many ways of course, here is one, whether it is a good one i don't know: \DeclareDocumentCommand \chapter { s o s o s m o } { \UseInstance{heading}{chapter} {#1} {#3} {#5} {#6} {#2} {#4} {#7} } this may look like madness :-) but there is some logic behind it: * means no number [] the text for the toc * don't put text in toc [] text for runhead * don't put text in runhead {} main heading text [] motto if any so \chapter*{BAR} makes a heading with no number but BAR in the toc and in runhead \chapter**{BAR} makes a heading with no number and no toc entry but BAR in runhead if you really would like to have a number but no toc entry this would be possible as well but only with some difficulty: \chapter[]*{BAR} ie we have to give an alternate toc entry and then say we don't really meant this :-) and so on. comments? > It would be useful if the templates allowed putting stuff before or > after the section heading, useful for drawing rules and so on. Is this > worthy of a an argument to the template. it would definitley be useful if templates allowed putting stuff like rules etc before and after a heading text, but would it reall be correct to give this functionality to the user level? i think not. this is something that would be a key to the individual template and it would be fixed by the instance, ie headings in this layout have rules and in other layouts (read document classes) they have not. or do you see this differently? frank 29-Oct-1999 16:31:39-GMT,2771;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02344 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:31:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA01498; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:05:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445268 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:05:42 +0200 Received: from gate.eds.de (gate.eds.de [205.191.194.5]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA01476 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:05:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com by gate.eds.de with SMTP id SAA23470 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for ); Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:06:31 +0200 Received: by n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA088693136; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:05:36 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <199910281728.SAA15046@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14361.50640.53971.453945@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:05:36 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: collection instances To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910281728.SAA15046@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> James Kilfiger writes: > On another matter, how will collection instances be used? Will > environments select a collection. Would it be useful if \begin{myenv} > implictly called \UseCollection{myenv}. You could use this to prohibit > sectional headings in floats, or \item outside of lists. Would this be > within the expected use of collections. must confess we don't know that yet. we don't know eve if collection instances are such a good idea in the first place. it is something that will sort itself out probably pretty soon if we have played around a bit with them. i personally think that envs setting the collection instances is not the way to go. when i played around with ists i tried doing this but it didn't felt right. as i said i don't know frank 29-Oct-1999 18:28:14-GMT,3621;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04279 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:28:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA09407; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 20:04:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445332 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 20:03:58 +0200 Received: from na.uni-tuebingen.de (root@na.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.161.64]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09396 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 20:03:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from uni-tuebingen.de (na6 [134.2.161.170]) by na.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21575 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 20:03:53 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <199910281728.SAA15046@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <14361.49815.612920.201449@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3819E188.5C84682@uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 20:03:52 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Marcel Oliver Subject: Re: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank Mittelbach wrote: > \DeclareDocumentCommand \chapter { s o s o s m o } > { > \UseInstance{heading}{chapter} > {#1} {#3} {#5} {#6} {#2} {#4} {#7} > } > > this may look like madness :-) but there is some logic behind it: > > * means no number > [] the text for the toc > * don't put text in toc > [] text for runhead > * don't put text in runhead > {} main heading text > [] motto if any What I would really like to see at the user level is the possibility of relative sectioning commands. One requirement should be that one can mix absolute and relative sectioning in a natural way. To explain what I mean by this, suppose that the optional argument of \section and friends was not not already used for the TOC title. Now I have a document with structure \section{AAA} \section{BBB} \subsection{CCC} \section{DDD} and I decide that BBB with all of its sub- and lower level sections should really be a subsection to AAA. I'd like to be able to write \section{AAA} \label{aaa} \section[aaa]{BBB} \subsection{CCC} \section{DDD} which makes BBB relative to AAA, i.e. a subsection, and CCC consequently a subsubsection, while DDD remains at the section level. I guess the functionality should be implementable via an .aux file mechanism (I am sure the experts will know if there are any pitfalls), but anything like this will also further overload the argument structure of sectioning commands. The only clean solution that I see is the use of keyval syntax, but it looks like this will seriously break existing end-user code, and also bypass all this nice new xparse stuff... Marcel 31-Oct-1999 12:15:25-GMT,3946;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA18286 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 06:15:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA23436; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:59:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444945 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:59:10 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23429 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:59:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin406.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.106]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09334 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:58:37 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00348; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:25:03 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <199910281728.SAA15046@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <14361.49815.612920.201449@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> <3819E188.5C84682@uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <199910311125.MAA00348@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:25:03 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <3819E188.5C84682@uni-tuebingen.de> Marcel Oliver writes: > What I would really like to see at the user level is the possibility > of relative sectioning commands. having read this far i thought that you meant something like this: \begin{head}{Main heading} text text text \begin{head}{Sub heading} text text \end{head} \begin{head}{Another sub heading} text text \end{head} \end{head} etc. something like this would be easy to provide, eg you simply would do something like this: \newcounter{headlevel} \DeclareDocumentEnvironment{head} { s o m } % or whatever you parse here { \stepcounter{headlevel} \UseInstance{heading}{\Alph{headlevel}-head} ... } { \addtocounter{headlevel}{-1} } which means that for each level one would need to define an instance with the name A-head, B-head, ... however, this would not solve: > One requirement should be that one > can mix absolute and relative sectioning in a natural way. To explain but to be honnest i don't think that a concept of mixing absolute names with relative names via a label/ref mechanism is really helpful. > \section{AAA} \label{aaa} > \section[aaa]{BBB} > \subsection{CCC} > \section{DDD} I agree that it is a bit of a pain to change a heading tree in a LaTeX document at the moment but something like the above seems to mak a document completely uncomprehensible (if used on a larger scale). So in my opinion it is better to either accept that changing the names is necessary if one changes the structure or to use a real relative naming scheme (as outlined above) in the first place. --- or perhaps i'm just getting too old for revolutionary changes? anybody else having some views on this? frank 31-Oct-1999 13:24:03-GMT,4640;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18519 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 07:24:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA26239; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 15:09:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444967 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:09:32 +0200 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26231 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 15:09:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21364 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 09:09:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02892 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 09:09:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199910311409.JAA02892@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 09:09:30 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: Re: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank Mittelbach writes: > Marcel Oliver writes: > > > What I would really like to see at the user level is the possibility > > of relative sectioning commands. > > having read this far i thought that you meant something like this: > > \begin{head}{Main heading} > > text text text > > \begin{head}{Sub heading} > text text > \end{head} [snip] So nesting would determine the level? Or perhaps one could simply descend a level with \downsection{heading} (no explicit container for section contents as with LaTeX \section) and go up a level with \upsection. Then if the value of \documentclass were, for example, "article", a "\downsection" at the top of the body would be the same as "\section". And at some point when deeply nested it would be possible to get out simply with an absolute command such as old-fashioned \subsection without risking an incorrect number of \end's. If section-like units are going to have explicit containment boundaries, then I see a sense only in absolute names and I would suggest upper casing the traditional names for this. That is, \begin{Subsection}{heading} ... \end{Subsection}, but I think there are relatively few cases where explicit containment is actually helpful. (Still I have it modeled for optional use in gellmu.dtd; I seldom use it since I'm lazy. The language definition in the dtd causes sgml endtags to be placed correctly in almost every case (perhaps every case). An OMITTAG feature available in SGML, not in XML; once it's there, one can down-translate to XML if desired.) > > One requirement should be that one > > can mix absolute and relative sectioning in a natural way. To explain > > but to be honnest i don't think that a concept of mixing absolute names with > relative names via a label/ref mechanism is really helpful. The labels could only be auxiliary as now. One keeps track of the level. Absolute names have absolute level values depending on the value of \documentclass, while \downsection increments the level by one and \upsection does the reverse. > I agree that it is a bit of a pain to change a heading tree in a LaTeX > document at the moment but something like the above seems to mak a document > completely uncomprehensible (if used on a larger scale). So in my opinion it > is better to either accept that changing the names is necessary if one > changes the structure or to use a real relative naming scheme (as outlined > above) in the first place. --- or perhaps i'm just getting too old for > revolutionary changes? (No! You certainly must be younger than I am. :-) ) What about a user-level way to tweek the section level counter? (Perhaps a new section level counter, not stepping on anything already there.) -- Bill 31-Oct-1999 16:28:58-GMT,5500;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19180 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 09:28:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA01161; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:15:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444990 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 18:15:22 +0200 Received: from wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk (root@wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.41]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01154 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:15:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28568 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:15:21 GMT Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA28902 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:15:20 GMT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199910311615.QAA28902@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:15:20 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Re: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14361.49815.612920.201449@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> from Frank Mittelbach at "Oct 29, 99 05:51:51 pm" > James Kilfiger writes: > > > I was thinking rather vaguely about templates for sectional heading. > > I can think of at three style for authors to make sectional headings. > > As now, with section commands, with section evironments, and in a > > list-like manner. Templates for headings should be able of supporting > > classes that use a mixture of these styles. > > as far as section commands ala latex and section environments are > concerned i don't see any difficulties. can you be a bit more specific > in what you mean by "in a list-like manner"? e.g. show a syntax > example of what you mean Actully I'd doubt there is any difficulty, What I meant is document syntax like: \begin{section} ... \end{section} % section environments or \begin{new-section-level} \section{...} ... \begin{new-section-leve} \section{,...} \end{}\end{} %list like, in that \section is behaving like \item, syntacticly (Other thought, is minimization like \end{} useful?) > > of contents. (BTW this seems to show a general problem in Latex syntax > > when two or more indepedent optional arguments are required.) > > it is correct that the current LaTeX syntax is a bit poor in this respect > but so it is. by separating xparse and templates we are free to > provide a better front-end one day by using something else than xparse. Actully it occured to me that the xparse allows a partial solution to this, in that one can say \command[\NoValue][option] to get the default behaviour from the first argument. That won't work with `O{}' type arguments, unless \ddc@O does a \IfNoValue check. And the main reason for `O' is to avoid \IfNoValue, however the test would only be done when an optional argument was given, so it would be less of a problem. Perhaps this is an argument for using a real quark for \NoValue, but using a quark as part of document syntax would be dangerous. Perhaps this argues for giving up the recursive test in IfNoValue, and just doing an \ifx agaist \NoValueInIt. How well hidden could \NoValue be in practice? > as far as the template arguments are concerned i think they should be > of type boolean here (how this is mapped to latex top level syntax is > a different matter) > > my current idea about the template type heading is like this: > > #1 boolean number or not > #2 boolean text into toc or not > #3 boolean text into running head/foot or not > #4 text heading text (required) > #5 text/NoValue text for toc (use #4 if NoValue) > #6 text/NoValue text for runhead (use #4 if NoValue) > #7 text/NoValue supplementary text like a motto > > as i said above i'm not at all sure about the need or the > "sensibility" of #2/#3 except perhaps for compatibility purposes to > latex2e classes --- to tell me your thoughts. What is your view of the aim in terms of compatiblity with 2e. Should there be source compatiblity or formatting compatiblity. I'd say the first is essential, if only in a compatiblty mode, the second may be desirable, but only in a compatitblty mode. As for the desirablity of #2/#3, I'm sure if you don't offer them, people will complain. Certainly `I want an unnumbered section in the TOC' is a common request on comp.text.tex. I think this is a case for practicality rather than purity and elegance. By `motto' do you mean epigram, typeset at the end of the chapter? James 31-Oct-1999 17:07:23-GMT,5847;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19315 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:07:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA02682; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:54:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445023 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 18:54:34 +0200 Received: from ssmtp02.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02673 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:54:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.77.69] ([195.5.77.69]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FKH89K00.09M for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:53:47 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199910311654.RAA02673@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 18:54:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Re: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L > > o should there be user level control on whether or not a heading has > a number? (or are those things logically simply different tags and > we are only used to saying \chapter* instead of \frontmatterchapter > or whatever because nothing else was available) > > in other words is this really a flexibility that is needed/wanted > or only there to hide the fact that some general functionality is > missing? [...] >so > > \chapter*{BAR} > >makes a heading with no number but BAR in the toc and in runhead > > \chapter**{BAR} > >makes a heading with no number and no toc entry but BAR in runhead > >if you really would like to have a number but no toc entry this would >be possible as well but only with some difficulty: > > \chapter[]*{BAR} The more I analyze this problem, the more I become convinced that the star mechanism should be avoided in favour of a markup-like syntax. Let's suppose there are some sections containing exercises. Instead of using a starred version, we could use an environment: \begin{exercises} \section{Easy} ... \section{Not so easy} ... \end{exercises} If headings (or their short form) are in the TOC or in the headlines is a decision taken by exercises, which in addition may set the text to \small, add the word "Exercises" to the head, etc. (At the end of this message, I copy part of the manual of one of my packages, which it's to the point.) The mean to get this could be to provide a set of flags which determine the behaviour of section headings; these flags shouldn't be changed directly in the main document but through an intermediary (in this example, the exercises environment). For instance: numbered in-toc in-headings The natural way of doing that in template is \UseCollection, but another possibility is to use a key which will expand at \UseInstance with the actual flag values in "usual" tex macros. Perhaps in a future a new structure could be created so that \sections are not inside an environment (other than document) and flags are properly handled. Javier ======== The following definition supresses numbers but neither toc lines nor headers. \begin{verbatim} \newenvironment{exercises} {\setcounter{secnumdepth}{0}} {\setcounter{secnumdepth}{2}} \end{verbatim} The following one adds a toc line but headers will remain untouched: \begin{verbatim} \newenvironment{exercises} {\setcounter{secnumdepth}{0}% \renewcommand\sectionmark[1]{}} {\setcounter{secnumdepth}{2}} \end{verbatim} The following one updates the headers but there will be no toc line: \begin{verbatim} \newenvironment{exercises} {\setcounter{secnumdepth}{0}% \addtocontents{toc}{\protect\setcounter{tocdepth}{0}\ignorespaces}} {\setcounter{secnumdepth}{2}% \addtocontents{toc}{\protect\setcounter{tocdepth}{2}\ignorespaces}} \end{verbatim} (I find the latter a bit odd in this particular example; the first and second options are more sensible. The |\ignorespaces| is not very important, and you needn't it unless there is unwanted space in the toc.) That works with standard classes, but if you are using \textsf{fancyhdr} or \textsf{titlesec} to define headers you need an extra command. I will name it |\printthesection| and you could define it in the preamble as follows: \begin{verbatim} \newcommand{\printthesection}{\thesection\ } \end{verbatim} If you define the header with \textsf{titlesec}, for instance: \begin{verbatim} \newpagestyle{myps}{ \sethead{\printthesection\sectiontitle}{}{\usepage}} \end{verbatim} then you have to write: \begin{verbatim} \newenvironment{exercises} {\setcounter{secnumdepth}{0}% \renewcommand{\printthesection}{}} {\setcounter{secnumdepth}{2}} \end{verbatim} and so on. As you can see, there are no |\addcontentsline|, no |\markboth|, no |\section*|, just logical structure. Of course you may change it as you wish; for example if you decide that these sections should be typeset in small typeface, include |\small|, and if you realize that you don't like that, remove it. While the standard LaTeX commands are easier and more direct for simple cases, I think the proposed method above is far preferable in large documents. 31-Oct-1999 20:31:25-GMT,3510;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20325 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:31:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA09989; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:11:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445081 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 22:11:16 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09960 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:11:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin403.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.103]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA31896 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:10:39 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA00657; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:45:26 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199910261251.IAA08223@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199910311845.TAA00657@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:45:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: on silence To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910261251.IAA08223@hilbert.math.albany.edu> William F. Hammond writes: > (Perhaps some who are quiet are busy or do not know quite what to say. > I don't think that the silence indicates a lack of interest.) i can easily believe both of the explanations (or fool myself into it :-) but without feedback and even if the feedback is mainly of the type, please explain this better i don't understand, it is awfully hard to write about this. and if i'm not able to finally get this into a shape where most of you on the list do understand it and/or think it is being useful this is doomed, or not? that is, unless there are the wrong people on the list (or for the wrong reasons) both of which i doubt knowing many of the names or having seen the contributions in the past. what i mainly want to say is, that this list only works with participation, it is *not* the announcement list for the latex3 project but rather your forum to bring in new ideas (as well as to help us getting our ideas into useful shapes for you) as you might notice most of my posts are currently written late at night or on weekends which says something about the amount of time i currently have to work on these issues. as a result my replies to any posts are slow anyway, so i'm quite happy if this list is not suddenly exploding with 20 or more messages per day. but if this work should come to a successful finish (and right now i think there is a good chance) we need as much help as you (plural) can provide. sorry for the aside :-) frank 31-Oct-1999 20:35:56-GMT,5728;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20344 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:35:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA10002; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:11:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445085 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 22:11:20 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09975 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:11:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin403.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.103]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26293 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:10:42 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00567; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:29:20 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199910041250.NAA27424@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199910011238.OAA00640@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910070958.LAA00712@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910081840.UAA01185@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910252203.AAA00837@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Message-ID: <199910311329.OAA00567@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:29:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: footnote templates (was Experimental `template' interface code) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Lars, > A technical case where I later realized it might be needed is that of > footnotes saved for later typesetting by the template. In that case the > number has already been assigned. true. this together with the fact that a template for LaTeX footnotes should probably (at least if wanted) support features already in 2e, suggests that one argument to the template should in fact be a supplied number for the footnote. > >- more something to solve a technical problem (because it is rather difficult > > in TeX): have one argument that is a boolean and states that the current > > footnote is one in a row of footnotes which belong together > > example: > > > > text text\footnote{first}\footnote{second} > > > >in most case this would be supposed to come out as > > > > 1, 2 > > text text > > > >and not as > > > > 12 > > text text > > > >as it would in current LaTeX. > > This is an interesting one! It touches another difficulty regarding link > footnotes, namely that there may be punctuation which should be placed > between the text made a link and the footnote number. Anyway, I think the > boolean Frank suggests here should definately be an argument of footnote > templates. okay, i've convinced myself too that this boolean would be useful whether or not it is passed onto the user syntax level (instead one could think, for example, of extending xparse to be able to check for a certain command following and if so setting such a boolean) so for me the current working definition of the template types related to footnotes would look like this: Type: notemark Args: boolean true if followed by another notemark integer/NoValue value to produce the mark, if NoValue internally generate the number by incrementing a counter whose name is supplied by the template Type: notetext Args: integer/NoValue value to produce the mark in front of the note text; if NoValue use the current value of a counter provided by the template text text of the note Current LaTeX2e definitions would then become \DeclareUserCommand \footnotemark { o } { \UseInstance {notemark}{footnote} \BooleanFalse {#1} } \DeclareUserCommand \footnotetext { o m } { \UseInstance {notetext}{footnote} {#1} {#2} } \DeclareUserCommand \footnote { o m } { \UseInstance {notemark}{footnote} \BooleanFalse {#1} \UseInstance {notetext}{footnote} {#1} {#2} } and extended versions could make use of the boolean which is above always set to false. this does not take into account the thoughts on specifying textual areas for links if the document is typeset for display on the web or more generally in a hypertext environment. did anybody have some additional thoughts on what one would like to be able to specify in a document for an individual footnote? (remember the question is not what formatting should be applied to all footnotes, for this the actual templates will have attributes, the question is whether or not that is varying data that one would like (sometimes) pass to a single instance of a footnote (or note in general) frank 31-Oct-1999 20:41:12-GMT,6975;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20381 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:41:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA09971; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:11:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445077 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 22:11:06 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09955 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:11:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin403.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.103]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05011 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:10:32 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA00728; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:43:11 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199910261251.IAA08223@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Message-ID: <199910311943.UAA00728@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:43:11 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: footnote templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910261251.IAA08223@hilbert.math.albany.edu> William F. Hammond writes: > > now please don't tell me that \footnote could easily scan for a \footnote > > following. i know, but how do i specify this if we separate frontend (ie > > \footnote declared via something like the xparse package from the > > typesetting > > declaration) > > >From my point of view one wants different types of "macro" > declarations that can be made at various stages, and one wants to have > very clearly laid out rules about what can be done with each. if i understand you right then you are agreeing with me that the different levels, eg user document syntax and the level of formatting eg templates etc should be properly separated. but the point is that on the document level i sometimes need information from the parsing and that needs to be properly propagated (this is much less an issue if one mixes those levels together as it is currently done in LaTeX). so in the case of footnote one might want to parse the document further (in there parsing level, eg xparse) to see if another footnote (or footnotemark) follows but then one has to pass the information gained to the layout/template level. to give a completely different example. some time ago i worked on templates for justification of paragraphs (this isn't yet made public because it depends on the galley code which is not finished ...). anyway, the main point was that i wanted to be able to specify things like TeX' \leftskip \rightskip \parfillskip etc to be able to denote paragraph justifications like "raggedright" or "firstlinecentered" or "justified" etc. now one thing that became clear was that a template for this needed to specify how to produce a "newline-action" that is i need to provide code that can be used if the user says \newline or \\ or the like because depending on the settings for \parfillskip etc, the code needed is different. now since \\ in LaTeX supports a * and an optional argument my first implementation actually had a key in the template that looked like this: newline-action =f0 and was expecting a command name (such as \newline) which in turn was supposed to be defined via xparse and accepting a star and an optional argument. but then i realised that i was horribly mixing the two levels. by having a key which actually wants code that does parsing for a star and some brackets my template instance was suddenly no longer independent from the document syntax. that is, if i would replace xparse by a frontend that would parse xml syntax, say, my template instance would not work any longer since it would still require \\*[] for a linebreak so i changed the specification of the internal galley data structure to carry enough information so that i'm now able to specify the stuff without making assumptions on the template level about the document level syntax. (as it turned out what was needed was to be able to say whether or not a "newline" command does fill the current line with white space and if so with how much --- you will see this one day) back to the question of footnotes in sequence: > That said, what about giving the issue to the authors with > something new for this purpose such as \footnotesequence ? this is a possibility on the front end and it might be the right choice to use there. but on the layout-level, i.e. the template side an individual footnote mark as so much in common with a footnote mark that is part of a sequence that i think it pays off to provide a flag to the template that says this is a mark in a sequence or not. on the user syntax level this could still be provided a different function though in that particular case my feeling is that it should not be a different command if possible, eg if i have the following case text text\footnote{foo} text text and i decide to add another footnote to this point i think it would be more logical to be able to say text text\footnote{foo}\footnote{bar} text text and let the commands sort out that they come in a sequence (see my other post on xparse extension --- to be written :-) rather than forcing the user to replace the first thing by something like text text\begin{footnotesequence} \item foo \item bar\end{footnotesequence} text text handwaving on the actual syntax. my suggestion some days ago to have text text\footnote*{foo}\footnote{bar} text text has effectively the same defect, only that it is far easier for the user to change from one form to the other, but logically speaking the right kind of abstract information is already present in the first example with the two \footnote commands and in my eyes this is all that should be needed (preferably). A similar case is \section{foo} text compared to \section{foo} \subsection{bar} text where we don't have to tell the subsection command that a section command immediately follows. it figures this out by itself and adjusts the spacing automatically (no need for manual intervention) frank 31-Oct-1999 22:55:49-GMT,3599;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21124 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 15:55:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA14358; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:41:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445125 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 00:41:18 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14350 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:41:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin364.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.64]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14689 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:40:44 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00827; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:13:27 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f Message-ID: <199910312013.VAA00827@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:13:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: extending xparse --- any takers? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L we had a bit of discussion some time ago on how to extend xparse here is one suggestion which i think might be of interest: suppose we have a parsing class "x" in the second argument of \DeclareUserCommand which would take a list of tokens (for example comma spearated) and parses the input to see if any of those tokens follows. If so it would return \BooleanTrue otherwise \BooleanFalse. eg \DeclareUserCommand \footnotemark { o x{\footnotemark,\footnote} } would scan for an optional argument and returns it as #1 (or \NoValue if not found) and then scans for either \footnotemark or \footnote and returns \BooleanTrue or False respectively if this is a sensible extension (not sure) one has to be clear about a couple of points: a) is the parsing happening only on top-level of the source document or does one parse using expansion? That is, if the user says \newcommand\fn[1]{\footnote{#1}} would \footnotemark\fn{foo} see the hidden \footnote or not? --- i think it probably should find it b) what do we do about spaces: is the first in \footnote{foo} \footnote{bar} seeing the second one despite the fact that there is a space inbetween and if so what happens to this space? --- again i think it should probably see the second footnote (or perhaps there should be a variation class "X" that can look past such spaces) but it would need to communicate that such a space is there (somehow) any suggestions/comments on something like this? --- it certainly would need some further thought to become useful (if it is useful at all) anybody out there who needs a nightcap puzzle? would be interesting to experiment with such an implementation. frank 1-Nov-1999 14:07:21-GMT,3482;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26627 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:07:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA14970; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:41:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445169 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:41:02 +0100 Received: from daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.30]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14959 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:40:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29301 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:41:02 GMT Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19149; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:41:01 GMT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199911011341.NAA19149@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:41:00 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Re: extending xparse --- any takers? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910312013.VAA00827@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> from Frank Mittelbach at "Oct 31, 99 09:13:27 pm" > we had a bit of discussion some time ago on how to extend xparse > > here is one suggestion which i think might be of interest: > > suppose we have a parsing class "x" in the second argument of > \DeclareUserCommand which would take a list of tokens (for example comma > spearated) and parses the input to see if any of those tokens follows. If so > it would return \BooleanTrue otherwise \BooleanFalse. eg I've got an implementation of something like this, but I'm not very proud of it (it doesn't do expansion, and \DeclareDocumentCommand{x{\foo\bar}m}{} causes errors, x{} must be the last argument. and it doesn't use commas). The internals of the code are: \long\def\@ddc@x#1#2\toks@{ % Need to test that #2=\the, without breaking \@ifnexttokenin \@ifnexttokenin{#1} {\addto@hook\toks@\BooleanTrue #2\toks@} {\addto@hook\toks@\BooleanFalse #2\toks@}} \def\q@stop{\errmessage{quarky~ thing~ expanded!}} \def\@firstofmany#1#2\q@stop{#1} % Are there internals that already do this? \def\@restofmany#1#2\q@stop{#2} \long\def\@ifnexttokenin#1#2#3#4{ \ifx/#1/ #3#4 \else \expandafter\@ifnextchar\@firstofmany#1\q@stop {#2\@gobble} {\expandafter\@ifnexttokenin\expandafter {\@restofmany#1\q@stop} {#2} {#3} #4\@gobble} #4 \fi } (you also have to put a parser in \@ddc for x and rename all the \ddc@xmmm to avoid a name clash) Surely this can be done better. James 1-Nov-1999 14:31:16-GMT,4451;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26831 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:31:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA16821; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:09:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445183 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:09:23 +0100 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16801 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:09:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from sun06.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FKI00A02VBEPX@sun06.ams.org> for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:09:14 -0500 (EST) MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Lines: 77 References: <199910311329.OAA00567@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Message-ID: <199911011409.PAA16801@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:09:14 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Comments: Resent-From: mjd@ams.org Comments: Originally-From: Michael John Downes From: "Michael J. Downes" Subject: Combining sequences of identical elements To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Frank Mittelbach's message of Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:29:20 +0100 Frank Mittelbach writes: > > > text text\footnote{first}\footnote{second} > > > > > >in most case this would be supposed to come out as > > > > > > 1, 2 > > > text text > okay, i've convinced myself too that this boolean would be useful whether or > not it is passed onto the user syntax level (instead one could think, for > example, of extending xparse to be able to check for a certain command > following and if so setting such a boolean) I would just like to give some more examples where the idea of combined formatting for consecutive elements of the same type might be applicable: \cite{foo}\cite{bar} -> [19,35] instead of [19] [35] The above usage would allow each \cite to have its own optional arg, something that is not possible with current syntax. \newcommand{\secref}[1]{Section~\ref{#1}} ... \secref{foo}\secref{bar} Here one might like to have the pair of refs expand to Sections~\ref{foo} and \ref{bar} or for three or more Sections~\ref{foo}\textendash\ref{baz} A similar idea: author names in a bibitem (if bibitems were done with logical markup instead of preprocessed by BibTeX): \bibitem{foo} \author{First Author} \author{Second Author} ... where one might like to have consecutive author names automatically combined into a list form "A, B, and C" or whatever. Such a reformatting is already done by amsart.cls for the author names printed in \maketitle but that is a different mechanism because accumulating the data and printing happen in two different steps and there is a definite stopping point (\maketitle) where it is known that the list of author elements is complete. Then consider \[...\] \[...\] etc which an author might reasonably expect to be combined into a group of equations (with differences in the vertical spacing and page-break penalties). One might even say that the equations in a consecutive group should by default get aligned on the relation symbols---but then it becomes clear that in some cases the author will want to override the default whichever way it goes: i.e., need to specify an option for the whole group. This suggests I think that group markup would be a good idea after all: \begin{eqngroup}[align=false] \[...\] \[...\] ... \end{eqngroup} \citegroup[maybe-some-options]{\cite{...}\cite{...}...} \footnotegroup{\footnote{...}\footnote{...}...} (One might like to have a smart editor that automatically adds the group markup when you put in the second footnote :-) Michael Downes 1-Nov-1999 14:39:18-GMT,3671;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26878 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:39:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA17399; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:17:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445186 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:17:02 +0100 Received: from mailhost.rug.nl (mailhost.rug.nl [129.125.4.6]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA17389 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:17:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from gladia (actually host gladia.astro.rug.nl) by mailhost.rug.nl with local-SMTP (MMTA); Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:16:54 +0100 X-VMS-To: SMTP%"LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de" X-VMS-Cc: HELBIG Message-ID: <99110115125076@man.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:12:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Phillip Helbig Subject: Re: Combining sequences of identical elements To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L > I would just like to give some more examples where the idea of combined > formatting for consecutive elements of the same type might be > applicable: > > \cite{foo}\cite{bar} -> [19,35] instead of [19] [35] > > The above usage would allow each \cite to have its own optional arg, > something that is not possible with current syntax. Yes that would be nice. Maybe a future version of natbib? While we're on the subject, I often have stuff like It has been shown by \citet[hereafter Paper~I]{PHelbigMQ99a} and then EDIT THE .BBL BY HAND to insert the `Paper~I'. This is, perhaps, something which natbib could be coaxed into doing, by having a THIRD optional argument which would write this information to the .aux so BibTeX could pick it up. Also, since defining it as Paper~I or whatever is a context-thing, that should be done by hand, but it would be nice if the `Paper~I' were to occur automatically at further citations, rather than hard-wiring `Paper~I' into the text. Also, a variant to suppress this would be useful, perhaps for a figure caption which should be more or less independent of the text. If a future version of natbib can do it, I'm happy, but if one is talking about things like modifying the \cite command, why not build in much-needed functionality like this at a low level? -- Phillip Helbig Email ......... p.helbig@jb.man.ac.uk University of Manchester Tel. ... +44 1477 571 321 (ext. 2635) Jodrell Bank Observatory Fax ................ +44 1477 571 618 Macclesfield Telex ................ 36149 JODREL G UK-Cheshire SK11 9DL Web ... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~pjh/ ************************ currently working at ******************************* Kapteyn Instituut Email (above preferred) helbig@astro.rug.nl Rijksuniversiteit Groningen Tel. ...................... +31 50 363 4067 Postbus 800 Fax ....................... +31 50 363 6100 NL-9700 AV Groningen The Netherlands Web ... http://gladia.astro.rug.nl/~helbig/ 2-Nov-1999 8:34:58-GMT,2435;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA09021 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 01:34:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA07393; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:26:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 444974 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:26:30 +0100 Received: from tibre.ujf-grenoble.fr (tibre.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.238.31]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07370 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:26:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by tibre.ujf-grenoble.fr (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3/Configured by AD & JE 25/10/1999) with ESMTP id JAA20655 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:17:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ujf-grenoble.fr (ppp-bouche.ujf-grenoble.fr [152.77.212.157]) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA25805; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 00:26:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <199910281728.SAA15046@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <14361.49815.612920.201449@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <381A1F7A.20B59B6C@ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 00:28:10 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Re: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank Mittelbach a écrit: > o should there be user level control on whether or not a heading has > a number? What happens to text like "see section \ref{sec:xx}" if the class designer withdrawed numbers, the author being not aware of that? Th. 2-Nov-1999 14:37:32-GMT,2778;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA10749 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:37:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA25557; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:22:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445667 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:22:21 +0100 Received: from snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.31]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25548 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:22:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23219 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:22:20 GMT Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07840 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:22:19 GMT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199911021422.OAA07840@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:22:18 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Re: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <381A1F7A.20B59B6C@ujf-grenoble.fr> from Thierry Bouche at "Oct 30, 99 00:28:10 am" > Frank Mittelbach a écrit: > > o should there be user level control on whether or not a heading has > > a number? > > What happens to text like "see section \ref{sec:xx}" if the class > designer withdrawed numbers, the author being not aware of that? Presumably the xref system can do something like what is done by the Donald Arseneau's titleref package, and the class designer can activate that for such a class. On silence: This list is noiser now than it has often been in the past. People will talk even more once they can see some more templates. It's hard to comment on a template type without using it. At the momement the discussion is about user-level syntax, perhaps someone should go and ask some users... James 2-Nov-1999 19:49:24-GMT,5589;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15355 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 12:49:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA08269; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:35:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446046 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:35:22 +0100 Received: from na.uni-tuebingen.de (root@na.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.161.64]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08262 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:35:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de (na6 [134.2.161.170]) by na.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17521; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:35:19 +0100 (MET) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id UAA16373; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:35:18 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <199911021935.UAA16373@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:35:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Marcel Oliver Subject: Re: section headings, sequences of identical elements To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L First a follow-up on my earlier posting on relative sectioning: Frank Mittelbach wrote: > having read this far i thought that you meant something like this: > > \begin{head}{Main heading} > > text text text > > \begin{head}{Sub heading} > text text > \end{head} > \begin{head}{Another sub heading} > text text > \end{head} > \end{head} I guess this is the "correct" approach from an academic point of view. But unfortunately it's not upward compatible with current LaTeX, and I don't see any important reason to break existing user-level syntax. Moreover, in my experience non-technical users have lots of problems getting \begin and \end's to match up (it doesn't help advocating smart editors---what can go wrong, will go wrong), thus I think environments should be avoided whereever it is possible to do so. "William F. Hammond" wrote: > Or perhaps one could simply descend a level with > > \downsection{heading} This also has problems, namely if you want to change the level of a single (sub)section, you have to also adjust the relative section marking of the following sectioning command. This might be a real mess in practice. However, one may have the following variation: \begin{downsection} \section{AAA} \subsection{BBB} ... \end{downsection} which would cause the enclosed material to be set one level down from what is explicitly indicated. Since I'd like to avoid environments (although I suppose one could make the case that an environment is really not too bad for this purpose), one could also have the following syntax: \downsection[2] \section{AAA} which would make AAA a subsubsection, and all of AAA's daughters \paragraphs thereof. This leads to an issue that has been raised in some other posts: A general high-level lookahead mechanism within xparse which could be for this as well as for things like \cite{A}\cite{B} etc. So maybe it would be useful to add a new argument specifier to xparse, namely the next token (and possibly also store its arguments in well-defined places). So let's call this argument specifier l for look-ahead, and assume that the arguments of the prescanned token are in the slots #(n+1) up to #(n+m) if n is the number of formal arguments of the current command, and m is the number of formal arguments to the prescanned command. The the following would be possible (excuse my bad TeX, I know it doesn't work like this, but I am not doing this every day, and I don't want to look up stuff just to explain the concept): \DeclareDocumentCommand \downsection { O{1} l } { \if #2=\section \then \head {1+#1} {#3} \elif #2=\subsection \then \head {2+#1} {#3} ... } where I assume for simplicity that \section takes only one mandatory argument, and \head{n}{caption} actually typesets the section heading at level n with text "caption". Or the \cite\cite problem could be solved like (ignoring the optional argument of \cite for the moment): \DeclareDocumentCommand \cite { m l } { \if #2=\cite \then \cite {#1,#3} \else \typeset_citation {#1} \fi } So this would gobble up an arbitrary number of \cite's and spit out a \typeset_citation where the single arguments of the \cite's are comma separated. I don't know enough TeX to really judge if this has a good ratio of usefulness to difficulty, but it seems it could solve a lot of problems that would otherwise require some serious TeX. By the way, I still think that using the \ref mechanism for relative sectioning is neat (even if it probably needs a lot of internal changes to the .aux file handling). Maybe one could write \section{AAA} \label{aaa} \anchor{aaa} \section{BBB} which would "anchor" BBB as a subsection of AAA. Marcel 2-Nov-1999 21:56:09-GMT,5053;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16940 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:56:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA19447; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 22:44:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446084 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 22:44:03 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19435 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 22:44:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin02.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.174.2]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04216 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 22:43:18 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00443; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:39:40 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <199910281728.SAA15046@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <14361.49815.612920.201449@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> <381A1F7A.20B59B6C@ujf-grenoble.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199911022039.VAA00443@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:39:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <381A1F7A.20B59B6C@ujf-grenoble.fr> Thierry Bouche writes: > Frank Mittelbach a écrit: > > o should there be user level control on whether or not a heading has > > a number? > > What happens to text like "see section \ref{sec:xx}" if the class > designer withdrawed numbers, the author being not aware of that? that is a question for which there isn't really a good answer. in current LaTeX, the ref refers to the last unit that sets \@currentlabel which means that if in the hierarchy of headings there is a heading which still is number you will get that number. that may not be perfect (eg if that is the chapter but the text says "see section 1" then, but it is better than nothing). some people would like to see the possibility of getting the heading text as a reference (like the IBM manuals do) and come up with "see section ``How to Configure XYZ'', other people say that you can never get this right and definitely can't automatically change from one style to another. it is most certainly the case that any design change of the type "different levels for heading numbers" or "references using heading text" can not really be made without checking and potentially correcting a document afterwards. in other words i think that to some extend the author of a document has to be aware of the layout he/she is targetting for in this respect. (a similar example and perhaps worse is citation styles, eg author/date viz sequence-numbers: you can't typeset a document in both styles using the same source) ================================= i would call two latex classes (the term class is actually bad in 2e) "source compatible" if they can successfully process the same documents, ie provide the same user commands and functionality. in other words a document that can be processed by article.cls would be processable (with sensible results) by any other class that is source compatible to article.cls --- one could say the two LaTeX2e classes belong to the same class, urg (this is when i meant the term was badly chosen). now i wonder if i would claim that article.cls and myarticle.cls differing only in the setting of the secnumdepth counter should be considered incompatible in the above sense. there are arguments for it and arguments against it: - since the availibility of numbering or generally the availability of refering to a heading via \ref differs one can argue the classes are not source compatible - on the other hand this is making the granularity very small and it might mean that coming up with sufficient additional issues of that type nearly no class can be considered compatible to another one. - ... frank ps seems that the post i replied to, took a long time (three days?) to get past the listserv, or was this only to me? 3-Nov-1999 16:30:24-GMT,5641;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25644 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:30:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA06638; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:16:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445458 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:16:23 +0100 Received: from abel.math.umu.se (abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06629 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:16:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by abel.math.umu.se (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA25439 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:13:37 +0100 (CET) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se References: <381A1F7A.20B59B6C@ujf-grenoble.fr> <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <199910281728.SAA15046@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <14361.49815.612920.201449@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> <381A1F7A.20B59B6C@ujf-grenoble.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id RAA06632 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:16:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911022039.VAA00443@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> On the matter of relativizing the section headings, I think doing that would be creating a much greater mess than it could ever be worth. People often compiling large documents from several small might possibly benefit from it, but they would be better served by a package with this as the feature than by additional functionality in the kernel or the standard classes. I suspect the normal user would get less trouble from explicitly changing the section heading commands using search and replace than from a document where the section headings don't produce what their names indicate. Section heading environments like the "head" FMi described would be sound, but it is questionable whether they are useful enough to be a new standard feature. I would say no. FMi wrote: >i would call two latex classes (the term class is actually bad in 2e) "source >compatible" if they can successfully process the same documents, ie provide >the same user commands and functionality. in other words a document that can >be processed by article.cls would be processable (with sensible results) by >any other class that is source compatible to article.cls --- one could say the >two LaTeX2e classes belong to the same class, urg (this is when i meant the >term was badly chosen). How about saying that the two classes belong to the same family? >now i wonder if i would claim that article.cls and myarticle.cls differing >only in the setting of the secnumdepth counter should be considered >incompatible in the above sense. > >there are arguments for it and arguments against it: > > - since the availibility of numbering or generally the availability of > refering to a heading via \ref differs one can argue the classes are not > source compatible A solution here could be that if \label is applied to an unnumbered heading then (optionally) a warning could be issued and the reference text would become the heading text itself (plus some formatting), e.g. after \subparagraph{Gnus} \label{Spar:Gnus} % I don't think these get numbers the code ... see also Subparagraph~\ref{Spar:Gnus]. would typeset as ... see also Subparagraph `Gnus'. or even ... see also Subparagraph `Gnus' of Paragraph 1.2.3.4. It's certainly not ideal (and it would benefit a lot from some kind of relativity in the referencing), but it does make sense. As for how to implement it, I would make it so that the heading template puts together the reference string and sets a flag to mark that something unnumbered is being referenced. Then the \label (if there is one) prints the warning (if the class or whatever thinks it is needed). > - on the other hand this is making the granularity very small and it might > mean that coming up with sufficient additional issues of that type nearly > no class can be considered compatible to another one. Indeed. BTW, it would be nice if there could be clearer documentation regarding which features are available assuming that the document class belongs to the same family as (one of) the standard LaTeX classes, and which features should exist for all LaTeX classes. This has often assoyed me when I have been writing classes. The ("How to write a LaTeX document") manuals I've read make no distinctions here, so users generally expect very much. Lars Hellström PS: On the matter of silence, perhaps this will help cheer Frank up: I think I can agree to everything you have written recently on section headings. 3-Nov-1999 21:29:45-GMT,4172;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00006 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:29:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA02677; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:23:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445618 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:23:11 +0100 Received: from downtown.oche.de (root@downtown.oche.de [194.94.253.3]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02662 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:22:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from corona.oche.de (uucp@localhost) by downtown.oche.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id WAA20270 for URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE!LATEX-L; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:20:10 +0100 Received: by corona.oche.de (wUUCP 1.10) id <1irp@corona.oche.de>; Wed, 3 Nov 99 22:20:25 CET X-Mailer: AmiGate 1.6 (13.11.95) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:15:01 CET Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Achim Blumensath Subject: Re: on silence To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank Mittelbach wrote: > but without feedback and even if the feedback is mainly of the type, > please explain this better i don't understand, it is awfully hard to > write about this. and if i'm not able to finally get this into a shape > where most of you on the list do understand it and/or think it is > being useful this is doomed, or not? In my case, I think the general design is ok. So there is no need to comment on that. But in order to comment on the details they should be published first. You said several times that you couldn't release the code of template because it depends on some unfinished other things. Perhaps it would be a good idea to just post a list of those templates without an actual implementation, just with a description of the arguments, attributes, and semantics. Here are two (random) things I've thought of: a) General structure. IMHO LaTeX should be much more modular so you can replace parts you don't like with your own implementation. It could be divided into the kernel containing just the programming environment like xparse, etc., and a lot of modules, one for each aspect of actual typesetting (lists, math, fonts, headings, pagestyle,...). The structure of a class file would be preamble including modules declaring instances of templates defined in the modules The advantage would be that you could o make cosmetic changes by writing a new class which uses other values to instantiate the templates, and o make fundamental changes by writing a new module with different implementation of templates. b) Displays. A basic display template IMHO could have no parameters, the following attributes above-skip, below-skip, left-indent, right-indent alignment: left, right, centered, full width mode: text, math-displaystyle, math-textstyle and it would define two commands to resp. begin and end the environment. Other, more convenient templates could be defined on top of this. Unfortunately, I haven't come up with a satisfactory design of high level math environments, so far. Achim ________________________________________________________________________ _ | \_____/ | // Achim Blumensath | \ _ \O/ \___/\ | // blume@corona.oche.de |-< /_\ =o= \ /\ \| \X/ (p^2 - m^2)\psi = 0 |_/ \_ /"\ o----| ____________________________________________________________________\___| 3-Nov-1999 21:30:12-GMT,4661;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00012 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:30:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA02759; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:24:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445623 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:24:01 +0100 Received: from downtown.oche.de (root@downtown.oche.de [194.94.253.3]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02738 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:23:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from corona.oche.de (uucp@localhost) by downtown.oche.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id WAA20269 for URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE!LATEX-L; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:20:10 +0100 Received: by corona.oche.de (wUUCP 1.10) id <1irk@corona.oche.de>; Wed, 3 Nov 99 22:20:24 CET X-Mailer: AmiGate 1.6 (13.11.95) Message-ID: <407fe02b@corona.oche.de> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:33:15 CET Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Achim Blumensath Subject: Re: footnote templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank Mittelbach wrote: > on the user syntax level this could still be provided a different > function though in that particular case my feeling is that it should > not be a different command if possible, eg if i have the following case > > text text\footnote{foo} text text > > and i decide to add another footnote to this point i think it would be > more logical to be able to say > > text text\footnote{foo}\footnote{bar} text text > > and let the commands sort out that they come in a sequence (see my other > post on xparse extension --- to be written :-) rather than forcing the > user to replace the first thing by something like > > text text\begin{footnotesequence} \item foo \item bar\end{footnotesequence} > text text > > handwaving on the actual syntax. my suggestion some days ago to have > > text text\footnote*{foo}\footnote{bar} text text > > has effectively the same defect, only that it is far easier for the user > to change from one form to the other, but logically speaking the right > kind of abstract information is already present in the first example > with the two \footnote commands and in my eyes this is all that should > be needed (preferably). I agree that this would be preferable but I don't think there is a clean solution which does this automatically. E.g., if you just look at the next token something like \footnote{aaa}\index{bbb}\footnote{ccc} will fail even if semantically it is the same as \footnote{aaa}\footnote{ccc}\index{bbb} Therefore, I suggest using one of the less ideal but working solutions you mentioned above, e.g., an environment. > A similar case is > > \section{foo} text > > compared to > > \section{foo} \subsection{bar} text > > where we don't have to tell the subsection command that a section > command immediately follows. it figures this out by itself and adjusts > the spacing automatically (no need for manual intervention) IMHO the only clean solution for context-sensitive commands would be to generate an abstract syntax tree of the document and provide methods to check things like: Is my right neighbour a \footnote command? Am I the first child of type \subsection? etc. Unfortunately one can't implement such methods in TeX easily (if at all). One example are caterpillars as described in A. B. Klein, D. Wood, Caterpillars, Context, Tree Automata, and Tree Pattern Matching, Developments in Language Theory, 1999. I don't know if a description is available online, but Wood's homepage (which I haven't looked at) is at www.cs.ust.hk/~dwood. Achim ________________________________________________________________________ _ | \_____/ | // Achim Blumensath | \ _ \O/ \___/\ | // blume@corona.oche.de |-< /_\ =o= \ /\ \| \X/ (p^2 - m^2)\psi = 0 |_/ \_ /"\ o----| ____________________________________________________________________\___| 4-Nov-1999 5:55:50-GMT,1726;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04093 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:55:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA15197 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 06:00:01 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199911040500.GAA15197@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 06:00:01 +0100 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Heidelberg (1.8b)" Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the LATEX-L list To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" X-LSV-ListID: LATEX-L Thu, 4 Nov 1999 06:00:01 Your subscription to the LATEX-L list is due for renewal. If you wish to remain subscribed to LATEX-L, please issue the following command to LISTSERV@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE at your earliest convenience: CONFIRM LATEX-L You will be automatically removed from the list if you do not send a CONFIRM command within the next 21 days. PS: In order to facilitate the task, this message has been specially formatted so that you only need to forward it back to LISTSERV@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE to have the command executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding function of most mail packages are supported, replying will seldom work, so make sure to forward and not reply. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- // JOB CONFIRM LATEX-L // EOJ 4-Nov-1999 14:00:31-GMT,1015;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06746 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:00:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA13144 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:00:19 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199911041400.PAA13144@relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:00:19 +0100 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Heidelberg (1.8b)" Subject: Output of your job "beebe" To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" > CONFIRM LATEX-L Your subscription to the LATEX-L list has been confirmed. Summary of resource utilization ------------------------------- CPU time: 0.020 sec Overhead CPU: 0.010 sec CPU model: SPARCstation-20 (128M) 5-Nov-1999 21:25:08-GMT,3176;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27159 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:25:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17664; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:16:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445628 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:16:56 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17654 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:16:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin407.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.107]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA30119 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:17:01 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA00394; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:48:33 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: Message-ID: <199911051948.UAA00394@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:48:33 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: on silence To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Achim, > In my case, I think the general design is ok. So there is no need to > comment on that. well thanks for replying anyway :-) and i don't quite agree on the "there is no need" a) how should i know that silence means agreement rather than, of no interest? b) all the replies so far, prompted by my plea against silence brought forward some good points and comments to think about for me (and others) > But in order to comment on the details they should be > published first. right, it is kind of difficult to comment on details not known. however i still hope that i do not only get comments but also sometimes some details in return --- now i know this is difficult but ... > You said several times that you couldn't release the > code of template because it depends on some unfinished other things. > Perhaps it would be a good idea to just post a list of those templates > without an actual implementation, just with a description of the > arguments, attributes, and semantics. right again, will try to see what i can provide soon. my main problem these days is finding the time --- with the Y2K hype most of the 24 hours of a day seems to vanish elsewhere frank 5-Nov-1999 21:25:26-GMT,3801;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27175 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:25:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17685; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:17:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445632 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:17:23 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17659 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:16:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin407.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.107]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28818 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:17:03 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA00398; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:58:55 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: Message-ID: <199911051958.UAA00398@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:58:55 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: on general structure To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Achim Blumensath writes: > Here are two (random) things I've thought of: > > a) General structure. IMHO LaTeX should be much more modular so you can > replace parts you don't like with your own implementation. It could be > divided into the kernel containing just the programming environment > like xparse, etc., and a lot of modules, one for each aspect of actual > typesetting (lists, math, fonts, headings, pagestyle,...). > > The structure of a class file would be > > preamble > including modules > declaring instances of templates defined in the modules this is sort of what we have in mind. perhaps even more separated on the class file level in the sense that a class file of the new type might in fact come as (probably two files): a) a layout specification file which declares the layout which means loading template modules and declaring instances b) an interface file which maps those instances to document-level design. c) perhaps a third file which does nothing but essentially loads part a) and b) this way the part a) can be also used by applications which use LaTeX as a backend and perhaps prefer a different document syntax at the same time part b) then declares class compatibility, ie two classes sharing the same file b) can process the same documents. > The advantage would be that you could > > o make cosmetic changes by writing a new class which uses other > values to instantiate the templates, and > > o make fundamental changes by writing a new module with different > implementation of templates. right. if this properly formalized one can also make use of graphical interfaces (or rather build them) which allow to declare or modify a class by changing it through such an interface, eg, a la Scientific Word class editor frank 6-Nov-1999 19:55:35-GMT,4055;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05057 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:55:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA27277; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 20:44:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445429 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 20:44:33 +0100 Received: from sarah.albany.edu (sarah.albany.edu [169.226.1.103]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27270 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 20:44:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02394 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03745 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:44:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199911061944.OAA03745@hilbert.math.albany.edu> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:44:37 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "William F. Hammond" Subject: math set builder notation To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L It is difficult for me to write about these things, as I've said before, because I have not looked into writing packages. My point of view is that of writing a formatter for an XML application that makes humanoid, interceptable LaTeX source. As I understand it, the goal for LaTeX 3 is to have several layers, with well-defined LaTeX specs, including a layer for users to create commands with \newcommand, a layer one level down for package writers, and further lower layers although I am unclear about just what these are. Case in point: a command for users (only in a math mode) \setbuilder{arg1}{arg2} that produces a notational definition of a mathematical set, where arg1 is a parameter expression and arg2 is a defining-condition expression. I would like to explain why this is a bit much to expect at the \newcommand level and, therefore, what one might want to have available at the package writer's level as a well-defined LaTeX method. With the present "\newcommand" one can do the following *ugly* thing: \newcommand{\setbuilder}[2]{\left\{{#1}\mid{#2}\right\}} This is ugly because the vertical bar provided by \mid does not stretch correctly. For example, a user's invocation of \[ \setbuilder{\frac{m}{n}}{n \neq 0} \] should be equivalent to \[ \left\{ \left. \frac{m}{n} \right| n \neq 0 \right\} \] because, in this example, the box height for the parameter expression is greater than that of the defining-condition expression. Of course, if the larger of the two box heights was that of the defining condition, then one would want different arrangements for the inner \left,\right pair, i.e., parameter-expression \left| defining-condition-expression \right. and one wants \setbuilder handle this branching automatically. My impression is that it cannot be done legally with \newcommand. I am suggesting that one might want to have the package writing layer provide a well-defined LaTeX way to make branches based on various sizes associated with the arguments of package-provided commands, so that it would be easy for a package writer to provide this \setbuilder. (I do not know if it actually exists somewhere, and I am not asking that question.) -- Bill 6-Nov-1999 22:19:21-GMT,17318;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05916 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 15:19:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA04230; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 23:02:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445481 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 23:02:37 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (root@trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA04184 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 23:02:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin422.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.122]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15375 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 23:02:39 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00289; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:38:51 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: Message-ID: <199911062138.WAA00289@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:38:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Table of contents structures To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Achim Blumensath wrote: > But in order to comment on the details they should be > published first. You said several times that you couldn't release the > code of template because it depends on some unfinished other things. > Perhaps it would be a good idea to just post a list of those templates > without an actual implementation, just with a description of the > arguments, attributes, and semantics. i spend the last couple of hours in writing up ideas and template descriptions for templates related to TOC formatting since i think this is an interesting area and since it is something for which I have had a couple of templates done some time ago. i don't think that those templates are right but i guess they can serve as a basis to discuss this area and i hope they spawn further discussion and interest. the document below (xcontents.dtx) deliberately doesn't contain any code so the gentle reader is invited to implement the described template him/herself :-) or even better come up with better ones. have fun frank ----------- xcontents.dtx --------------------- % \iffalse %% %% (C) Copyright 1999 Frank Mittelbach %% All rights reserved. %% %% Not for general distribution. In its present form it is not allowed %% to put this package onto CD or an archive without consulting the %% the authors. %% %<*dtx> \ProvidesFile{xcontents.dtx} % %\NeedsTeXFormat{LaTeX2e} %\ProvidesPackage{xcontents} %\ProvidesFile{xcontents.drv} % \fi % \ProvidesFile{xcontents.dtx} [1999/11/06 v0.10 contents layouts] % % \iffalse %<*driver> \documentclass{ltxdoc} \usepackage{textcomp} % \usepackage{xparse,xlists,xlists-samples} % \usepackage{ldcdoc} % next three definitions are big hacks to run the file % without the above packages % \newcommand\NoValue{\texttt{\textbackslash NoValue}} \newenvironment{TemplateInterfaceDescription}[1] {\subsection{The Template Type `#1'}% \begingroup\description \def\TemplateArgument##1##2{\item[Arg: ##1]##2\par}% \def\TemplateSemantics{\enddescription\endgroup \subsubsection*{Semantics}}% } {\par\bigskip} \newenvironment{TemplateDescription}[2] {\subsection{The Template `#2' (type #1)}% \subsubsection*{Attributes} \begingroup\description \def\TemplateKey##1##2##3##4{\item[##1 (##2)]##3% \ifx\TemplateKey##4\TemplateKey\else \hskip0ptplus3em\penalty-500\hskip 0pt plus 1filll Default:~##4% \fi \par}% \def\TemplateSemantics{\enddescription\endgroup \subsubsection*{Comments}}% } {\par\bigskip} \begin{document} \DocInput{xcontents.dtx} \end{document} % % \fi % % % \GetFileInfo{xcontents.dtx} % % \title{The \textsf{xcontents} package\thanks{This file % has version number \fileversion, last % revised \filedate.}} % \author{FMi} % \date{\filedate} % % \maketitle % % \tableofcontents % % \newcommand\keyword[1]{\textsf{#1}} % \newcommand\template[1]{\textsf{#1}} % % \section{Structuring contents information} % % In \LaTeXe{} contents information as stored in files like % |\jobname.toc|, |\jobname.lot|, etc.\@ is a mixture of structured % data and unstructured data. For example, the line %\begin{verbatim} %\contentsline {section}{\numberline {2}Interfaces}{2} %\end{verbatim} % is comparably well-structured and thus allows customized processing % within the table of contents generation. However, the fact that the % section number appears as part of the heading text argument (even % though flagged with the command |\numberline|) makes certain types % of processing unnecessary difficult. Better would be to provide the % number (if any) as a separate argument. % % In addition to |\contentsline| \LaTeXe{} also allows package writers % (and in fact authors\footnote{Unfortunately this means that the % author needs to understand how the structured parts of the contents % files format their data.} via |\addtocontents|) to add arbitrary % unstructured material to the contents file. In this way formatting % of the contents data is spread across a large number of places, % e.g., some heading commands like chapter add vertical space to the % list of figure files this way. % % As an alternative one could think of sending all contents data to a % single location and, depending on whether one formats a TOC or a LOF % this data is analysed differently. As an advantage such a scheme % would allow to provide some of this information in a single % presentation, e.g., all figures and tables in a single list or even % having them presented as part of the TOC. % % Another problem with the current data structure is its missing % support for the preparation of partial TOCs, e.g., TOCs per chapter % or summary TOCs. Of course this information can be extracted in % theory from the |.toc| file (and there exist packages that provide % this functionality) a better support from the start could be % provided without much (or even any) overhead and should therefore be % considered. % % \subsection{Proposal for a new structure} % % A toc like file in the new structure consists of code lines % containing |\contentsobject| calls (and probably nothing else). Each % such |\contentsobject| command receives (currently) seven arguments % which are the following: % \begin{description} % \item[sequence number] % Number that is incremented for every contents object being added % to the output file.\footnote{At the moment this is a single % counter! fix.} This could be handy if you want to read in a toc % file to extract just all bits that refer to the current chapter % (there are other ways but this seems a nice one). % % \item[level] % This is the level of the hierarchy at which the the object lives % according to the template that generated it (e.g., if generated from % a heading template it would be the value of the keyword % \keyword{level-id}. % % \iffalse % no longer true!!! % \item[object number on level] % This is the unformatted number of the counter of the generating % object, ie it denotes the number of objects already on this level. % --- in cases of unnumbered headings, say, where no counter is % stepped this shows the same number as before which is a little % weird. perhaps it should show \NoValue{} in that case. anyway, % right now this is not used but i thought it could be handy to % have. % \fi % % \item[type] % This is the object type (a name) which is used to construct the % \template{contentsobject} template instance name when formatting % it. In many cases this will be the instance name, but in special % situation a \template{processcontents} instance can set up a % \keyword{collection-id} in which case the name will be the string % concatenation of both. % % Note that on a given `level' there might be objects of a different % type requiring different handling. % % \item[object number] % This is the object number string as generated from |\the...| counter % representation or \NoValue{} if the object doesn't have a number % associated with it. % % \item[text] % The object text, e.g., the heading title. % % \item[extra text] % Extra text (such as the authors name in a multi-article % collection) or \NoValue{} (currently not used by the existing % templates). % % \item[page number] % The page number as generated from |\thepage|. % \end{description} % % An example of this new structure would be the following: %\begin{verbatim} %\contentsobject {1}{1}{section}{1}{A first section}{}{1} %\contentsobject {2}{2}{subsection}{1.1}{A first subsection}{}{1} %\contentsobject {3}{2}{subsection}{1.2}{A second subsection with an % awful long title: some text or other to get us going right?}{}{1} %\contentsobject {4}{3}{subsubsection}{1.2.1}{A direct subsubsection}{}{1} %\contentsobject {5}{1}{section}{\NoValue }{Heading two as section}{}{1} %\contentsobject {6}{2}{subsection}{1.3}{With a direct subsection}{}{1} %\contentsobject {7}{3}{subsubsection}{1.3.1}{And some subsubsection}{}{1} %\contentsobject {8}{4}{paragraph}{\NoValue }{A runin paragraph}{}{1} %\contentsobject {9}{4}{paragraph}{\NoValue }{Another runin paragraph}{}{1} %\contentsobject {10}{5}{subparagraph}{\NoValue }{Another runin % subparagraph}{}{1} %\contentsobject {11}{5}{subparagraph}{\NoValue }{Another runin % subparagraph number two}{}{1} %\contentsobject {12}{5}{subparagraph}{\NoValue }{Another runin % subparagraph number three}{}{1} %\contentsobject {13}{1}{section}{2}{And another section}{}{1} %\contentsobject {14}{2}{subsection}{2.1}{that has a subsection}{}{1} %\contentsobject {15}{1}{section}{3}{A test}{}{2} %\contentsobject {16}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue }{with an unnumbered % subsection}{}{2} %\end{verbatim} % % \section{Interfaces} % % The \texttt{contentsobject} template type has the same arguments as % the |\contentsobject| command in the above data structure except that % the third argument (type) is missing since it is used to produce the % instance name.\footnote{For clarity it might be better to make this % the first argument of \texttt{\textbackslash contentsobject}!} % % \begin{TemplateInterfaceDescription}{contentsobject} % % \TemplateArgument{1} % {The sequence number of this object in the data structure} % % \TemplateArgument{2} % {Level of this contents object in the hierarchy} % % \TemplateArgument{3} % {Object number in the document if present or \NoValue} % % \TemplateArgument{4} % {Object text (e.g., heading title)} % % \TemplateArgument{5} % {Additional info if present or \NoValue} % % \TemplateArgument{6} % {Page Number} % % \TemplateSemantics % % Todays version has quite a mouthful of arguments but perhaps we % want even more or different ones. Passing on the level is useful % especially if we globally keep the previous level in a variable % for inspection. Thus an object can do different actions depending % on the level of the previous element. % % The sequence number can be used to find an element fast, e.g., in % case one is interested only in all objects belonging to a certain % chapter. % % \end{TemplateInterfaceDescription} % % % \begin{TemplateDescription}{contentsobject}{std} % % \TemplateKey{pre-v-action}{f0} % {What to do before typesetting the object (vertically)} % {\texttt{\textbackslash endgraf}} % % \TemplateKey{object-decls}{f0} % {General declarations applicable to all or most parts of the % object formatting (e.g., font settings)} % {do nothing} % % \TemplateKey{object-indent}{l} % {Indentation of whole object from left margin.} % {0pt} % % \TemplateKey{number-width}{l} % {Width of the space reserved for the document object % number. Space is reserved regardless of whether or not the % number is present.} % {} % % \TemplateKey{right-margin-sep}{l} % {Distance from right margin for all lines except the last} % {25pt} % % \TemplateKey{pnum-width}{l} % {Width of the space reserved for the page number (thus defines % the maxium width of the last line of the object)} % {15pt} % % \TemplateKey{number-format}{f1} % {How to format the document object number if present % (\texttt{object-decls} still % apply unless overwritten)} % {set flush left} % % \TemplateKey{title-format}{f1} % {How to format the main text (\texttt{object-decls} still % apply unless overwritten)} % {identity} % % \TemplateKey{pnum-format}{f1} % {How to format the page number (\texttt{object-decls} still % apply unless overwritten)} % {set flush right} % % \TemplateKey{leaders-action}{f0} % {What to use as leaders} % {typeset `.'} % % \TemplateKey{leaders-sep}{l} % {Separation between two `leaders' as defined by \texttt{leaders-action}} % {4pt} % % \TemplateSemantics % This template is closely modelled after the % |\@dottedcontentsline| of \LaTeXe{}. It should most likely be % redesigned. Stuff like \texttt{leaders-action} should get % generalised to something like a \texttt{hmaterial} template % instance etc. % \end{TemplateDescription} % % \begin{TemplateDescription}{contentsobject}{pnumfirst} % % \TemplateKey{pre-v-action}{f0} % {What to do before typesetting the object (vertically)} % {\texttt{\textbackslash endgraf}} % % \TemplateKey{object-width}{l} % {Width to format the object into.} % {\texttt{\textbackslash linewidth}} % % \TemplateKey{object-indent}{l} % {Indentation of whole object from left margin.} % {0pt} % % \TemplateKey{object-decls}{f0} % {General declarations applicable to all or most parts of the % object formatting (e.g., font settings)} % {do nothing} % % \TemplateKey{pnum-width}{l} % {Width of the space reserved for the page number. The page % number is formatted at the left leaving \texttt{object-width} % minus this value for other parts of the object} % {30pt} % % \TemplateKey{title-format}{f1} % {How to format the main text (\texttt{object-decls} still % apply unless overwritten)} % {Identity} % % \TemplateKey{pnum-format}{f1} % {How to format the page number (\texttt{object-decls} still % apply unless overwritten)} % {set flush right} % % \TemplateKey{pnum-title-sep}{l} % {Separation between box containing the page number and the % title text.} % {5pt} % % \TemplateSemantics % This template sets the page number to the left of the (heading) % text. Therefore it is not appropriate if the contents object is % itself numbered and for this reason will warn if it detects an % document object number. % \end{TemplateDescription} % % % % \begin{TemplateInterfaceDescription}{processcontents} % % \TemplateArgument{none}{---} % \TemplateSemantics % Formats externally collected contents objects according to % additionally declared templates. % % \end{TemplateInterfaceDescription} % % % \begin{TemplateDescription}{processcontents}{std} % % \TemplateKey{start-action}{f0} % {Action to carry out before processing any contents objects} % {Do nothing} % % \TemplateKey{stop-action}{f0} % {Action to carry out after processing all contents objects} % {Do nothing} % % \TemplateKey{file-name}{n} % {Base name of the file in which contents object are stored % (default is \texttt{\textbackslash jobname}} % {\texttt{\textbackslash jobname}} % % \TemplateKey{file-extension}{n} % {Extension of the file in which the contents objects are stored} % {} % % \TemplateKey{contents-depth}{c} % {Level down to which contents objects are still formatted} % {2} % % % \TemplateKey{collection-id}{n} % {String that is prepended to contents object instances names} % {Empty} % % \TemplateSemantics % Again this is basically providing the functionality of \LaTeXe's % |\@starttoc| with the obvious generalisations. As with the rest % this needs proper redesign. % % \end{TemplateDescription} % % % % \StopEventually{} % % \section{Implementation} % % \begin{macrocode} \endinput % \end{macrocode} % % \begin{macrocode} % % \end{macrocode} % % % \Finale % 8-Nov-1999 20:16:33-GMT,2493;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22769 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:16:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA04453; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:58:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446033 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:58:08 +0100 Received: from daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.30]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04442 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:58:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22220 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:58:13 GMT Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA20332; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:58:11 GMT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199911081958.TAA20332@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:58:11 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911061944.OAA03745@hilbert.math.albany.edu> from "William F. Hammond" at "Nov 6, 99 02:44:37 pm" I've been filling in the gaps in xcontents.dtx, and have a working package that more or less matches the documentation. The main thing I think from using the new packages it the error catching needs to be greatly improved. There is mention in xparse.dtx (I think) of putting help texts in \DeclareDocumentCommand, is that likely to happen? Similarly for an informal description of the arguments in \DeclareTemplateType. Are there any more thoughts on how that could be done? It would be James 10-Nov-1999 15:13:34-GMT,4927;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA18099 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 05:26:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA06363; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:25:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA06659; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:24:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445429 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:24:24 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06634 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:24:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from knatte.tninet.se (knatte.tninet.se [195.100.94.10]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA06126 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:24:32 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 29531 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1999 13:24:29 +0100 Received: from du128-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.128?) (195.100.226.128) by knatte.tninet.se with SMTP; 10 Nov 1999 13:24:29 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se (Unverified) References: <199911081958.TAA20332@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199911061944.OAA03745@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <199911081958.TAA20332@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:23:38 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Authoring language To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14375.58629.679692.883454@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Here is an example, explaining an idea for an authoring language I got. Instead of building on macro expansion, it builds on the lambda calculus, using some principles of computer semantics I have developed (and is still developing). Perhaps the sample can be used as an input for LaTeX or somebody else reading this list and is developing an authoring language. The sample is this: parse_rule command '<' [symbol] '|' [any_text] '|>': #1(#2). define chess --> \x |-> format{PGN, date 1995/05/06, version 2}(\x) The line parse_rule command '<' [symbol] '|' [any_text] '|>': #1(#2). means that a syntactic variable named "command" has been created. It relies on the formerly defined syntactic variables "symbol" and "any_text" to pick up text. The brackets [symbol] and [any_text] make the parsed text segments (or rather their parsed objects, in case they are parse rules) get the symbols #1 and #2. The last statement #1(#2) is a rule telling how the semantics should be produced (like in Yacc). This rule makes use of the computer semantics I developed, where objects have a single input (I skip the details). Thus #1(#2) means "hand over a reference of object #2 to object #1 for evaluation". Strictly speaking, it refers to the underlying created (binary, runtime) objects and not the parsed text itself. This becomes easier to understand when several parsing rules are hooked together, each producing a semantic object; there will always be such semantic objects at hand to combine. In the line define chess --> \x |-> format{PGN, date 1995/05/06, version 2}(\x) the "-->" is pronounced "evaluates to". This defines a lambda rule which expands to a format called PGN which is used to denote chess games. Let's see what happens with the line According to the parse rule "command", this evaluates to chess(game) and according to the "chess" lamnda expression, this evaluates to format{PGN, date 1995/05/06, version 2}(game) This could also be written --> chess(game) --> format{PGN, date 1995/05/06, version 2}(game) Thus, what it says is that the text "game" should be processed according to the spec's of the PGN format. I think one could develop a rather general authoring language using this idea. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 10-Nov-1999 19:19:23-GMT,9323;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27194 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:19:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA03512; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:18:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA21974; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:17:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445961 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:17:55 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21955 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:17:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.30]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA03387 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:18:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16666 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:18:04 GMT Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA11009 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:18:03 GMT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199911101918.TAA11009@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:18:03 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14375.58629.679692.883454@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> from Frank Mittelbach at "Nov 9, 99 10:10:29 am" > > I've been filling in the gaps in xcontents.dtx, and have a working > > package that more or less matches the documentation. The main thing I > sounds great. i guess you are going to share that with us at some point, yes? I'll append it below. It is almost entirely copied from latex.ltx I'm not sure what you mean by the collection-id key of processcontents I don't think I've done the right thing with it. > error catching is an important aspect in its own right; i agree. but > for prototype implementations i don't mind much if errors aren't > caught. True, provided you will give error-catching the priority it deserves I'm happy. I know it is always too easy to treat error handling as `second- class coding'. (but I don't suggest the latex3 team is guilty of this) > > But one needs to think about how to struture that "help info" so that > external programs (like emacs or whatever) can make good use of the > information. for LaTeX itself the information is not likely to be > usable (i think) There could be a \ShowCommand which would access that help, but I guess that would not be of much use to the majority of users. The most useful thing might be for the help texts of commands to be able to hyper-reference other commands. But I think such help texts must be fairly short. They can't replace good general documentation. > effectively all i think commands like \DeclareUserCommand or > \DeclareTemplateType etc. should do is to provide an extra argument in > which this information goes but not to use it themselves. \DeclareUserCommand? is this \DeclareDocumentCommand -- The Next Generation? Help for commands used could be saved and written to a file \jobname.help (or whatever) which then could be parsed by emacs, a person or whatever. Or the help text for user commands could be displayed when an error occurs while processing that command. > by the way, was this mail sent before it was finished? my copy ends with > > > there any more thoughts on how that could be done? It would be Probably I was going to end `It would be a Good Thing'. Below is xcontents.sty. \RequirePackage{xparse} \RequirePackage{template} \IgnoreWhiteSpace \DeclareTemplateType{contentsobject}{6} \DeclareTemplateType{processcontents}{0} \def\comma{,} \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{JK}{6}{ pre-v-action =f0 [\endgraf] \COpre@action, object-decls =f0 [\relax] \COobject@decl, object-indent =l [0pt] \leftskip, number-width =l [0pt] \@tempdima, right-margin-sep =l [25pt] \rightskip, pnum-width =l [15pt] \@tempdimb, number-format =f1 [#1\hfil] \COnumber@format, title-format =f1 [#1] \COtitle@format, pnum-format =f1 [\hfil#1] \COpnum@format, leaders-action =f0 [.] \COleaders@action, leaders-sep =l [4pt] \@tempdimc } { \ifnum #2>\c@tocdepth \else { \DoParameterAssignments \COpre@action \COobject@decl \parfillskip=-\rightskip \parindent=0pt \@afterindenttrue \interlinepenalty\@M \leavevmode \IfNoValueT{#3}{\def\COnumber@format##1{\hfil}} \hbox to \@tempdima {\COnumber@format{#3}} \nobreak \COtitle@format{#4} \nobreak \leaders\hbox{ \kern\@tempdimc \hbox{\COleaders@action} \kern\@tempdimc }\hfill \nobreak \hbox to \@tempdimb {\COpnum@format{#6}} \endgraf } \fi } \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{JKpnumfirst}{6}{ pre-v-action =f0 [\endgraf] \COpre@action, object-decls =f0 [\relax] \COobject@decl, object-indent =l [0pt] \leftskip, object-width =L [\DelayEvaluation{\linewidth}] \COobject@width, pnum-width =l [30pt] \@tempdimb, title-format =f1 [#1] \COtitle@format, pnum-format =f1 [#1] \COpnum@format, pnum-title-sep =l [5pt] \@tempskipa} { \IfNoValueF{#3} {\PackageWarning{xcontents}{Number~of~contents~object~was~ignored.}{}} \ifnum #2>\c@tocdepth \else { \DoParameterAssignments \parindent=0pt \COpre@action \COobject@decl \leavevmode \hbox to \COobject@width { \hbox to \@tempdimb{\COpnum@format{#6}\hfil} \hspace{\@tempskipa} \COtitle@format{#4}\hfil}} } \DeclareTemplate{processcontents}{JK}{0}{ start-action =f0 [\relax] \COstart@action, end-action =f0 [\relax] \COend@action, file-name =n [\jobname] \COfile@name, file-extension =n \COextension, contents-depth =c [2] \c@tocdepth, collection-id =n [] \COcollection@id, heading =f0 [\section*]\COheading, %actully use some instance name =n [\contentsname] \COname, header-format =f0 [\MakeUpperCase] \COheader@format } { \DoParameterAssignments \COheading{\COname \@mkboth{\CO@header@format\COname}{\CO@header@format\COname}} \begingroup \UseCollection{contentsobject}{\COcollection@id} %Is this wrong? \makeatletter \COstart@action \@input{\COfile@name.\COextension} \if@filesw \expandafter\newwrite\csname tf@\COextension\endcsname \immediate\openout \csname tf@\COextension\endcsname \COfile@name.\COextension\relax \fi \@nobreakfalse \endgroup } \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{section}{JK}{ pre-v-action = \DelayEvaluation{\addpenalty \@M \addvspace{1em \@plus \p@}}, right-margin-sep = 15pt, title-format = \textbf{#1}, number-format = \textbf{#1\hfil}, pnum-format = \textbf{\hfil#1}, leaders-action = ~, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{1.5em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{subsection}{JK}{ object-indent = \DelayEvaluation{1.5em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{2.3em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{subsubsection}{JK}{ object-indent = \DelayEvaluation{3.8em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{3.2em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{paragraph}{JK}{ object-indent = \DelayEvaluation{7.0em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{4.1em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{subparagraph}{JK}{ object-indent = \DelayEvaluation{10em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{5em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{pnumsubsection}{JKpnumfirst} {object-width=4cm} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{pnumsection}{JKpnumfirst} {object-width=4cm} \DeclareInstance{processcontents}{tableofcontents}{JK}{ file-extension = toc } \DeclareDocumentCommand{\contentsobject}{mmmmmmm} {\UseInstance{contentsobject}{#3}{#1}{#2}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}} \DeclareDocumentCommand{\JKtableofcontents}{}{ \UseInstance{processcontents}{tableofcontents} } \newcounter{contentscounter} \DeclareDocumentCommand{\addcontentsobject}{mmmm}{ \stepcounter{contentscounter} %or refstep? \addtocontents{toc}{ \contentsobject{\number\c@contentscounter}{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{}{\thepage}}} 11-Nov-1999 22:00:03-GMT,8572;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01152 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:59:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA27533; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:59:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA23638; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:57:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445871 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:57:52 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23610 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:57:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA27394 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:58:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin370.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.70]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11136 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:58:01 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00641; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:52:48 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <14375.58629.679692.883454@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> <199911101918.TAA11009@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199911112052.VAA00641@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:52:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911101918.TAA11009@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> James, > I'll append it below. thanks. it is good to see somebody having a go :-) and ... > It is almost entirely copied from latex.ltx who cares at this point (though at a later point one should) > I'm not sure what you mean by the collection-id key of processcontents > I don't think I've done the right thing with it. i think you did. see my example file below. > \DeclareUserCommand? is this \DeclareDocumentCommand -- The Next > Generation? Help for commands used could be saved and written to a heaven's no. slip of tongue more likely, age or stress. at one point David and i called the the UserCommand but then settled for DeclareDocumentCommand even though a bit longer --- just couldn't remember what we called it :-) =================== okay, so now we have an implementation by James and if you put that into a file called xcontentsJK.sty then you should be able to run the test file i appended below. my questions to this list would be now: a) have a look at the output b) have a try to define your own TOC layout (take my abstract spec of the available keys from the previous mail) c) can you define the layout you are looking for? if not: - are there keys missing for the current templates? - are there other templates missing that do radically different things? - are the keys perhaps the wrong ones? d) share your thoughts and sample trials with us e) how difficult is it to implement a given design? again thanks James to get us to this point frank ================= xcontents-test.tex \documentclass{article} \usepackage{xcontentsJK} \IgnoreWhiteSpace % small fixes (still doesn't exactly implement the spec % but fine for now): \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{JKpnumfirst2}{6}{ pre-v-action =f0 [\endgraf] \COpre@action, object-decls =f0 [\relax] \COobject@decl, object-indent =l [0pt] \leftskip, object-width =L [\DelayEvaluation{\linewidth}] \COobject@width, pnum-width =l [30pt] \@tempdimb, title-format =f1 [#1] \COtitle@format, %FMi default supposed to be flush right pnum-format =f1 [\hfil #1] \COpnum@format, pnum-title-sep =l [5pt] \@tempskipa} { \IfNoValueF{#3} {\PackageWarning{xcontents}{Number~of~contents~object~was~ignored.}{}} \ifnum #2>\c@tocdepth \else { \DoParameterAssignments \parindent=0pt %FMi force par for v-action \par \COpre@action \COobject@decl \leavevmode \hbox to \COobject@width { %FMi default supposed to be flush right \hbox to \@tempdimb{\COpnum@format{#6}} \hspace{\@tempskipa} \COtitle@format{#4}\hfil}} %FMi was missing: \fi } \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{section}{JK}{ pre-v-action = \DelayEvaluation{\addpenalty{10000} \addvspace{1em plus 1pt}}, right-margin-sep = 15pt, title-format = \textbf{#1}, number-format = \textbf{#1\hfil}, pnum-format = \textbf{\hfil#1}, leaders-action = ~, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{1.5em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{subsection}{JK}{ object-indent = \DelayEvaluation{1.5em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{2.3em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{subsubsection}{JK}{ object-indent = \DelayEvaluation{3.8em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{3.2em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{paragraph}{JK}{ object-indent = \DelayEvaluation{7.0em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{4.1em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{subparagraph}{JK}{ object-indent = \DelayEvaluation{10em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{5em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{pnumsubsection}{JKpnumfirst} {object-width=4cm} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{pnumsection}{JKpnumfirst} {object-width=4cm} %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% \DeclareCollectionInstance{summary}{contentsobject}{section}{JKpnumfirst2} { pre-v-action = \endgraf\addvspace{3pt plus .2pt}, object-decls = \sffamily, object-indent = 0pt, pnum-title-sep = 5pt, pnum-format = \hfill#1, } \DeclareCollectionInstance{summary}{contentsobject}{subsection}{JKpnumfirst2} { object-decls = \sffamily, object-indent = 0pt, pnum-title-sep = 15pt, pnum-format = \hfill#1, } \DeclareCollectionInstance{summary}{contentsobject}{subsubsection}{JKpnumfirst2} { object-decls = \sffamily, object-indent = 0pt, pnum-format =, pnum-title-sep = 30pt, pnum-format = \hfill#1, } \begin{document} \newcommand\testtoc[1]{ \section*{THE TEST: #1} \contentsobject {1}{1}{section}{1}{A first section}{}{1} \contentsobject {2}{2}{subsection}{1.1}{A first subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {3}{2}{subsection}{1.2}{A second subsection with an awful long title: some text or other to get us going right?}{}{1} \contentsobject {4}{3}{subsubsection}{1.2.1}{A direct subsubsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {5}{1}{section}{\NoValue }{Heading two as section}{}{1} \contentsobject {6}{2}{subsection}{1.3}{With a direct subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {7}{3}{subsubsection}{1.3.1}{And some subsubsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {8}{4}{paragraph}{\NoValue }{A runin paragraph}{}{1} \contentsobject {9}{4}{paragraph}{\NoValue }{Another runin paragraph}{}{1} \contentsobject {10}{5}{subparagraph}{\NoValue }{Another runin subparagraph}{}{1} \contentsobject {11}{5}{subparagraph}{\NoValue }{Another runin subparagraph number two}{}{1} \contentsobject {12}{5}{subparagraph}{\NoValue }{Another runin subparagraph number three}{}{1} \contentsobject {13}{1}{section}{2}{And another section}{}{1} \contentsobject {14}{2}{subsection}{2.1}{that has a subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {15}{1}{section}{3}{A test}{}{2} \contentsobject {16}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue }{with an unnumbered subsection}{}{2} } \testtoc{1} \UseCollection{contentsobject}{summary} \testtoc{2} % to add another toc example (chose a collection name FOO) % add some CollectionInstances above and do: %\UseCollection{contentsobject}{FOO} %\testtoc{3} \stop 11-Nov-1999 23:29:22-GMT,5754;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03560 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:29:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA06702; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:28:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA29013; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:28:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445012 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:28:22 +0100 Received: from cistron.nl (root@mikmak.cistron.nl [195.64.66.253]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA28996 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:28:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from mikmak (jlbraams@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cistron.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA17817 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:32:44 +0100 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 X-organisation: TeXniek X-address: Kooienswater 62, 2715 AJ Zoetermeer, The Netherlands X-phone: +31 79 352 28 19 X-fax: +31 70 343 67 61 X-URL: http://www.cistron.nl/~jlbraams/ X-Face: '-&yCsv_VMK]*E^s/)\-E$%PXQm?R$OVixN]wETlOcM,n-uKK1'-QP0u.oE/;bFOA16^3uOz0~wCJTy=#)HGwFj`SE}^aHH*aZIy07N6}SNw<.LR#d*m)RcF>!Z!({.OX!T&}4!a2@5 AF1VEwuCJx"OvkZN#0X^W{&Cn"6mNpO",M*j7::c#7rC=PbxA>Of*Nz(hD2:#IQ%kjMnB4XoaorR,u ;u-{z?}ZNo!daHKF"V_b@N/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <199911112332.AAA17817@cistron.nl> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:32:43 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Johannes L. Braams" Subject: babel 3.7 beta release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hi, I am releived to finally be able to tell you that I have finalized Babel release 3.7. What's new in release 3.7? Actually babel 3.7 is very much like the later releases of babel 3.6 (from 3.6k onwards). The concept of language attributes is new in this release. And support for a number of languages has been added. Here is a list of the changes since babel 3.6j: - Shorthands are expandable again. The disadvantage is that one has to type '{}a when the acute accent is used as a shorthand character. The advantage is that a number of other problems (such as the breaking of ligatures, etc.) have vanished. - Two new commands, \shorthandon and \shorthandoff have been introduced to enable to temporarliy witch off one or more shorthands. - Support for typesetting Sanskrit in transliteration will be made available in a later release of babel 3.7. - Support for typesetting Kannada, Devnagari and Tamil will be made available in a later release of babel 3.7. - Support for typesetting Greek has been enhaced. Code from the kdgreek package (suggested by the author) was added and \greeknumeral has been added. - A language attribute has been added to the \mark... commands in order to make sure that a greek header line comes out right on the last page before a language switch. - Support for typesetting Basque is now available thanks to Juan Aguirregabiria. - Support for typesetting Serbian with latin script is now available thanks to Dejan Muhamedagi'c and Jankovic Slobodan. - Support for typesetting Hebrew (and potential support for typesetting other rigth-to-left written languages) is now available thanks to Rama Porrat and Boris Lavva. - Hyphenation pattern files are now read inside a group; therefore any changes a pattern file needs to make to lowercase codes, uppercase codes and category codes are kept local to that group. If they are needed for the language, these changes will need to repeated and stored in \extras... - Support for typesetting Latin is now available, thanks to Krzysztof Konrad .Zelechowski. - The concept of language attributes is introduced. It is intended to be used for giving the user some control over the use of the features a language definition file provides. It's first use is for the Greek language where the user can select to use the \pi o\lambda\upsilon\tau o\nu\kappa\acute{o} (``Polutoniko'' or multiaccented) Greek way of typesetting texts. These attributes wil possible find wider use in future releases. The last remark: where can you get babel 3.7? It is available in the directory ftp://ftp.uni-mainz.de/pub/tex/macros/latex/required/babel/3.7-beta Happy LaTeXing! Johannes Braams TeXniek, Kooienswater 62, 2715 AJ Zoetermeer The Netherlands. Phone : +31 79 352 28 19 E-mail : JLBraams@cistron.nl Fax : +31 70 343 23 95 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12-Nov-1999 22:28:39-GMT,4858;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04711 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:28:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA05286; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 23:28:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA13025; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 23:26:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445813 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 23:26:46 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13016 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 23:26:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.30]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA05108 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 23:26:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13439 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:26:57 GMT Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA21138 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:26:55 GMT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199911122226.WAA21138@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:26:55 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911112052.VAA00641@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> from Frank Mittelbach at "Nov 11, 99 09:52:48 pm" > okay, so now we have an implementation by James and if you put that into a > file called xcontentsJK.sty then you should be able to run the test file i > appended below. > > my questions to this list would be now: > > c) can you define the layout you are looking for? > if not: > - are there keys missing for the current templates? > - are there other templates missing that do radically different things? > - are the keys perhaps the wrong ones? One more key : number-indent =l [0pt] \parindent Perhaps it should be `first-line-indent'. Used below. For the contents I am trying to simulate I seem to need both chapter and un-numbered-chapter instances. That would have implications for the templates which write the table of contents file. (I also need a demi-bold font, but thats by-the-by) > > e) how difficult is it to implement a given design? It's straightforward but fiddley, here are my instances for the toc of Algebraic K-Therory (Springer, GTM #147), The book only contains chapters, sections and `paragraphs' \DeclareCollectionInstance{Ktheory}{contentsobject}{chapter}{JK} {pre-v-action = \DelayEvaluation{ \addpenalty{10000}\addvspace{0.5ex plus 1pt}}, number-format = \textbf{\hfil Chapter~#1.\nobreakspace}, %Should be demi title-format = \textbf{#1}, %but this is bx pnum-format = \textbf{\hfil#1}, leaders-sep = 100cm, object-indent = 2cm, number-indent = -2cm, number-width = 2cm} \DeclareCollectionInstance{Ktheory}{contentsobject}{unnumberchapter}{JK} {pre-v-action = \DelayEvaluation{ \addpenalty{10000}\addvspace{1ex plus 1pt}}, title-format = \textbf{#1}, pnum-format = \textbf{\hfil#1}, leaders-sep = 100cm} \DeclareCollectionInstance{Ktheory}{contentsobject}{section}{JK} {number-format = \hfil#1.\nobreakspace, leaders-sep = 100cm, object-indent = 2cm, number-indent = -2cm, number-width = 2cm} \DeclareCollectionInstance{Ktheory}{contentsobject}{unnumbersection}{JK} {object-indent = 2cm+20pt, number-indent = -20pt, leaders-sep = 100cm} \DeclareCollectionInstance{Ktheory}{contentsobject}{paragraph}{JK} {leaders-sep = 100cm, object-indent = 2cm, number-indent = -2cm, number-width = 2cm} 13-Nov-1999 22:33:20-GMT,3381;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02213 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 15:33:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA13041; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:28:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA27065; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:28:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445348 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:28:01 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27058 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:28:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from downtown.oche.de (downtown.oche.de [194.94.253.3]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA12973 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:28:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from corona.oche.de (uucp@localhost) by downtown.oche.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id XAA10887 for URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE!LATEX-L; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:20:02 +0100 Received: by corona.oche.de (wUUCP 1.10) id <1j09@corona.oche.de>; Sat, 13 Nov 99 21:43:36 CET X-Mailer: AmiGate 1.6 (13.11.95) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:32:22 CET Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Achim Blumensath Subject: Re: Table of contents structures To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank Mittelbach wrote: > i don't think that those templates are right but i guess they can serve > as a basis to discuss this area and i hope they spawn further discussion > and interest. Something I think is difficult to archive with your templates are per chapter TOCs. If each chapter has its own table of contents there has to be some method to tell `processcontents' which part it should print. Either one could add an argument to `processcontents' containing, say, the serial number of the chapter in question, or `processcontents' has to get this information from some global variable. The disadvantage of the first solution is that one has to modify the definitions for some minor special case, whereas the second case destroys the clean separation between various parts of the system. Achim ________________________________________________________________________ _ | \_____/ | // Achim Blumensath | \ _ \O/ \___/\ | // blume@corona.oche.de |-< /_\ =o= \ /\ \| \X/ (p^2 - m^2)\psi = 0 |_/ \_ /"\ o----| ____________________________________________________________________\___| 14-Nov-1999 8:02:58-GMT,3876;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA12256 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:02:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28721; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:02:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA05673; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:02:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445121 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:02:01 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05666 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:01:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28700 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:02:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from craffe.loria.fr (craffe.loria.fr [152.81.1.31]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id JAA10010; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:02:13 +0100 (MET) Received: (from roegel@localhost) by craffe.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3-client/JCG) id JAA11956; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:02:13 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199911140802.JAA11956@craffe.loria.fr> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:02:13 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Denis B. Roegel" Subject: Re: babel 3.7 beta release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911112332.AAA17817@cistron.nl> from "Johannes L. Braams" at Nov 12, 99 00:32:43 am `Johannes L. Braams' wrote > > - The concept of language attributes is introduced. It is > intended to be used for giving the user some control over the > use of the features a language definition file provides. It's > first use is for the Greek language where the user can select > to use the \pi o\lambda\upsilon\tau o\nu\kappa\acute{o} > (``Polutoniko'' or multiaccented) Greek way of typesetting > texts. These attributes wil possible find wider use in future > releases. Thanks for this new version, Johannes! Among the language attributes, there should IMHO be "default encodings." These encodings would be either a pair of < input encoding, output encoding > or a pair of lists of encoding, which would enable priorities. For instance, English should have as a default < ASCII, OT1 >. French should have < latin1, T1 >, Russian could have < koi8-r, X2 >, etc. These encodings would then just be triggered when one writes \selectlanguage{french}, etc. I haven't tried the new version of babel, so maybe this is already included, and in this case I apologize, but in versions 3.6, when I want to switch between french, english and russian in the same document, I have to manually switch the encodings. And this is a bit cumbersome, especially since it could (and should IMHO) be automated. I think that when possible, encodings should be hidden from the user. Denis Roegel 14-Nov-1999 9:49:48-GMT,6904;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA14070 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 02:49:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05095; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:48:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA12749; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:48:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445148 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:48:28 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12738 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:48:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05061 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:48:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin407.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.107]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26306 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:48:40 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00478; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:24:36 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199911112052.VAA00641@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199911122226.WAA21138@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199911140924.KAA00478@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:24:36 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911122226.WAA21138@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> James wrote: > > my questions to this list would be now: > > > > c) can you define the layout you are looking for? > > if not: > > - are there keys missing for the current templates? > > - are there other templates missing that do radically different things? > > - are the keys perhaps the wrong ones? > > One more key : number-indent =l [0pt] \parindent > Perhaps it should be `first-line-indent'. Used below. yes, probably. and probably all keys should be a little bit more uniform in names and bahviour, eg if we have right-margin-sep why don't we have left-margin-sep? > For the contents I am trying to simulate I seem to need both > chapter and un-numbered-chapter instances. That would have implications > for the templates which write the table of contents file. (I also need > a demi-bold font, but thats by-the-by) i strongly believe that we do something seriously wrong if something like the design of the TOC has implications for the templates that generate the toc entries. if we have such a dependency then i think we need to consider modifying the contentsobject templates instead. after all, i as a designer, want to change the layout of the TOC by changing the instances for contentsobject but i don't want to be forced to change the instances of `headings' at the same time. the main reason for having a proper interface that passes along enough data was to avoid such dependencies. so the conclusion for me is that James' simulation of the Ktheory TOC suggests that we do need a different type of contentsobject template. since my feeling is that the current templates do nicely for a large number of toc layouts i would not try to extend them directly to cater for the case that the unnumbered object requires a very different layout in comparison to the numbered object. Instead my proposal is to add a `combination' template which allows that specification; something like this: \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{combined}{6}{ numbered-setup =i {contentsobject} \contents@numbered, unnumbered-setup =i {contentsobject} \contents@unnumbered, } { \DoParameterAssignments \IfNoValueTF{#3} { \contents@unnumbered } { \contents@numbered } {#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6} } This template does nothing but decides (depending on whether or not a number is present) which real template (or rather which instance) to use. --- the name `combined' is very much rubbish: anybody having a good idea how to call such types of templates; i'm sure that one will see them more often in the future. having this template the instances for James' simulation would then look like this: \DeclareCollectionInstance{Ktheory}{contentsobject}{chapter}{combined} { numbered-setup = \UseTemplate{contentsobject}{JK} {pre-v-action = \DelayEvaluation{ \addpenalty{10000}\addvspace{0.5ex plus 1pt}}, number-format = \textbf{\hfil Chapter~#1.\nobreakspace}, title-format = \textbf{#1}, pnum-format = \textbf{\hfil#1}, leaders-sep = 100cm, object-indent = 2cm, number-indent = -2cm, number-width = 2cm}, unnumbered-setup = \UseTemplate{contentsobject}{JK} {pre-v-action = \DelayEvaluation{ \addpenalty{10000}\addvspace{1ex plus 1pt}}, title-format = \textbf{#1}, pnum-format = \textbf{\hfil#1}, leaders-sep = 100cm}, } or assuming that the indivdual instances have been named: \DeclareCollectionInstance{Ktheory}{contentsobject}{chapter}{combined} { numbered-setup = numberedchapter, unnumbered-setup = unnumberedchapter, } > > e) how difficult is it to implement a given design? > > It's straightforward but fiddley, is it? if so why? because things could be improved or because the situation is complex and nothing could be done about it? i would like to repeat my questions from the previous post (with one additional question at the end): - can you define the layout you are looking for? if not: - are there keys missing for the current templates? - are there other templates missing that do radically different things? - are the keys perhaps the wrong ones? - share your thoughts and sample trials with us - do you have a good suggestion for the name of the above template `combined'? frank 14-Nov-1999 13:17:15-GMT,4745;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17478 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 06:17:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA19430; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:16:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA00137; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:16:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445259 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:16:03 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00123 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:16:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA19400 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:16:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin418.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.118]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06718 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:16:15 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00576; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 11:01:17 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: Message-ID: <199911141001.LAA00576@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 11:01:17 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Table of contents structures To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Achim Blumensath writes: > Something I think is difficult to archive with your templates are per > chapter TOCs. If each chapter has its own table of contents there has to > be some method to tell `processcontents' which part it should print. fully correct; the way processcontents is defined this isn't working properly. when i wrote the spec for the new contentsobject data structure i did have `per chapter' tocs etc very much in mind --- one of the reasons for providing sequence numbers (for fast finding the relevant starting point) and providing level information (to easily determine when to stop) so yes, the data structure is set up to more or less provide what is necessary, but the interface for formatting doesn't actually makes use of it. > Either one could add an argument to `processcontents' containing, say, > the serial number of the chapter in question, or `processcontents' has > to get this information from some global variable. The disadvantage of > the first solution is that one has to modify the definitions for some > minor special case, whereas the second case destroys the clean > separation between various parts of the system. i fully agree that using global variables to tell the processcontents templates what to do would make a messy interface and is not the way to do it. i had the first solution in mind originally, no idea why it got lost later on. why do you think it would do so much harm to have such an argument?, e.g. \DeclareTemplate{processcontents}{std}{1} { ... } { \IfNoValueTF{#1} { } { } } Alternatively one could think of having a special template type just for the partial contents production, eg \DeclareTemplate{processpartcontents}{std}{1} ... this would duplicate a bit of code (eg stuff like handling the start and the ned of a contents list) but makes processing of the main cases (ie full toc) slightly faster. on the other hand, does it matter? how many tocs do you really typeset per document, does some extra \IfNoValueTF ... really hurt? i guess, the next step is to code some templates for partial tocs (perhaps as processpartcontents types as a first solution) and later decide if merging into a single template type looks like a good idea frank 14-Nov-1999 17:08:39-GMT,3601;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21501 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:08:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA07321; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 18:00:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA20621; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:59:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445348 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:59:37 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20612 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:59:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA07255 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:59:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin380.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.80]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28813 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:59:50 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00650; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:11:48 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <407fe02b@corona.oche.de> Message-ID: <199911141311.OAA00650@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:11:48 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: footnote templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <407fe02b@corona.oche.de> I've spend some time last week writing up the documentation for a first footnote package and just a couple of minutes ago added it to the experimental code section on the project www server you'll find it at ftp//:www.latex-project.org/code/experimental/xfootnote.tgz (tar gzip) http//:www.latex-project.org/code/experimental/xfootnote (dir with individual files) it consist of a package file xfootnote.dtx (roughly 20 pages) a docstrip batch file xfootnote.ins and a small test file xfootnote-test.tex so far it only covers latex like types of footnotes, other layouts need adding. so you will not be surprised if i have essentially the same questions as with the xcontents stuff: - do you think the templates provide you with the keys to implement the layouts people might need/want? - what is missing, what is wrong, what is right? - there are a lot of questions posed in the .dtx file, perhaps some of you have some answers? - if anybody thinks he/she knows of designs that can't be achieved i would like to learn about them --- there must be many i'm sure ... best frank 14-Nov-1999 19:43:13-GMT,7184;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24289 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 12:43:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA22023; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 20:42:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA09366; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 20:42:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445401 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 20:42:00 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09357 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 20:41:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA21987 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 20:42:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin399.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.99]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16153 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 20:42:13 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01170; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:48:23 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <14361.49815.612920.201449@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> <199910311615.QAA28902@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199911141848.TAA01170@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:48:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: On compatibility To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910311615.QAA28902@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> James Kilfiger writes: > What is your view of the aim in terms of compatiblity with 2e. Should > there be source compatiblity or formatting compatiblity. I'd say the > first is essential, if only in a compatiblty mode, the second may be > desirable, but only in a compatitblty mode. i have very strong feelings on compatibility and several people have already learned about it when i rejected a sensible change in the 2e kernel for reasons of compatibility. my main argument for 2e is that LaTeX 2e is an exchange medium as well as a typesetting machinery. this means that even sensible change/enhancements have to be judged as to whether introducing an incompatibility between two maintenance releases of LaTeX2e is worth the price. many people argue that this is no problem because feature X is not there in previous releases so couldn't have been used, but the problem in fact lies in the other direction: once a new feature is introduced and people and package writer use it they produce documents and/or packages which only work with LaTeX and since a lot of people are unable to upgrade on regular basis this introduces a situation comparable to the last days of LaTeX2.09 where half of the installations couldn't process the documents of the other half (unless one kept at least three or four different `LaTeXs' around and even then) This is our basic strategy for not changing article.cls to produce a more decent layout or for adding feature X to the kernel (see ltnews07.tex) even if we agree that it would be sensible but this is all concerning 2e. James asked about 2e* and eventually ltx3. for what i'm currently doing i have somewhat different views. first of all, all the concepts and all the code that is currently being discussed and produced is explicitly written as a package solution to run on top of LaTeX2e. (this will change eventually but then we are going to call the beauty not 2e* but 3 or 2000:-) this means that a new class/package file that makes use of these concepts is a) something new that should run on every LaTeX2e installation that has installed the corresponding packages (and installing new packages is far easier than installing a new kernel) b) a document that uses a new class would not have any compatibility issues, other than with different versions of the 2e* package. the latter will certainly be a problem for a while which means hat it will take a while until something like a 2e* package can be reliably be used in production. But any document that uses the new classes or packages using the new concepts will also be "new", ie written with that information in mind. but what about all the million documents aready written? answer: as long as we are within 2e* and do not provide replacements for things like article.cls then nothing is going to change their formatting since they wouldn't even notice that there is additional stuff is around (since they do not load it). both together will allow us to thoroughly test the new concepts on a wider scale without compromising the production environment that LaTeX2e provides. in case we actually provide replacements for classes like article.cls there should be no difference either in the sense that a replacement for article.cls should of course keep the document command interface (100%) and as far as possible (no guess for a percentage) the layout. but i consider replacements for article.cls, report.cls and the like (within 2e*) more or less only as a test case for the templates (i.e., can we reproduce the (wonderful :-) original LaTeX layout) and at that state it should be done under different names to avoid any compatibility issues for the production environments at all. the moment we actually produce a kernel containing those concepts there is of course the need to produce replacements of the standard classes (as well as of a lot of packages that may benefit from the new concepts). As far as those replacements are concerned i agree that they should at least provide source compatibility and as far as possible also formatting compatibility. preferably this should be achieved automatically. but i wouldn't get totally unhappy if there is a need to automatically change 2e documents into ltx3 document via some translation process. after all, if you do not allow for this you either have to abandom any improvment (such as a better though perhaps not fully compatible float mechansim) or you have to provide a very very elaborate compatibility mode. what is more appropriate remains to be seen. right now i would not like to make predictions on what is better. frank 14-Nov-1999 20:57:41-GMT,4110;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25677 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:57:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA29284; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:55:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA18402; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:54:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445428 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:54:52 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA18386 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:54:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay2.vsu.ru (mail.vsu.ru [62.76.169.17]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA29267 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:55:06 +0100 (MET) Received: by relay2.vsu.ru (Postfix, from userid 5) id C9DCD1911; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 23:55:02 +0300 (MSK) Received: (from vvv@localhost) by vvv.vsu.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00845; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 23:48:56 +0300 References: <199911140802.JAA11956@craffe.loria.fr> Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 23:48:56 +0300 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Vladimir Volovich Subject: Re: babel 3.7 beta release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: "Denis B. Roegel"'s message of "Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:02:13 +0100" "DBR" == Denis B Roegel writes: DBR> Among the language attributes, there should IMHO be "default DBR> encodings." These encodings would be either a pair of < input DBR> encoding, output encoding > or a pair of lists of encoding, DBR> which would enable priorities. For instance, English should DBR> have as a default < ASCII, OT1 >. French should have < latin1, DBR> T1 >, Russian could have < koi8-r, X2 >, etc. For Russian, T2A seems to be much more convenient than X2 (the latter encoding does not contain latin chars at all, but they are often used inside text in Russian). As for the default input encoding for Russian, it is not obvious that koi8-r should be the default. There are several really widely used input encodings for Russian. Perhaps, specifying the default input encoding for Russian via language attributes could help? DBR> These encodings would then just be triggered when one writes DBR> \selectlanguage{french}, etc. I think that one should use the \selectlanguage command with caution: it is a "global" command with too many changes (captions, typesetting peculiarities, etc, i.e. such things that typically should have the only one global value per document), so more "local" triggers like \foreignlanguage and \otherlanguage are more appropriate for language switching. I think that it would be good to introduce in BABEL some mechanism which will define for (each or some) languages commands like \russiantext and \textrussian, so that {\russiantext ...} and \textrussian{...} will work as it is common in LaTeX. These commands should then change the font and input encodings. BABEL could provide a unified mechanism for declaring such commands in language definition files. Best regards, -- Vladimir. -- Well, O.K. I'll compromise with my principles because of EXISTENTIAL DESPAIR! 15-Nov-1999 7:42:35-GMT,2993;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA08238 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 00:42:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA21114; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:41:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA26856; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:40:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445176 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:40:02 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26829 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:40:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from gate.eds.de (gate.eds.de [205.191.194.5]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA20962 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:40:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com by gate.eds.de with SMTP id IAA27079 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for ); Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:41:17 +0100 Received: by n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA225301623; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:40:23 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <407fe02b@corona.oche.de> <199911141311.OAA00650@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14383.47335.533374.274283@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:40:23 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: footnote templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911141311.OAA00650@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> I wrote yesterday > I've spend some time last week writing up the documentation for a first > footnote package and just a couple of minutes ago added it to the experimental > code section on the project www server > > you'll find it at ... seems that a) i can't spell url's and b) that at least from here ftp doesn't work; so try http://www.latex-project.org/code/experimental/xfootnote.tgz (tar gzip) http://www.latex-project.org/code/experimental/xfootnote (dir with individual files) instead frank 15-Nov-1999 18:10:23-GMT,4252;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22079 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:10:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA24955; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:07:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA24183; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:06:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446545 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:06:37 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24162 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:06:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from duch.mimuw.edu.pl (duch.mimuw.edu.pl [193.0.96.2]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA24887 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:06:53 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 22534 invoked from network); 15 Nov 1999 18:04:31 -0000 Received: from pf149.warszawa.ppp.tpnet.pl (HELO Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl) (marcin@212.160.57.149) by duch.mimuw.edu.pl with SMTP; 15 Nov 1999 18:04:31 -0000 Received: (from marcin@localhost) by Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA00476; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:06:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14384.19380.269695.118363@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:06:44 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Marcin Wolinski Subject: various comments on templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hello Frank and all, I've just read all the templates related mail from the last month, and I'd like to make some comments. Sorry for being so late. As for the ``sequence of footnotes'' issue: ------------------------------------------- If you seriously think of supporting sequences of footnotes (which I btw find a very annoying habit) you should provide a template type for a sequence of note marks and not for a single mark. If sequences are allowed, single footnote mark is not a self-contained entity. Consider e.g. a template that puts a frame around the footnote mark(s). Now to put the frame around 1,2 you have to have it in hand as a whole. Section heads ------------- The template type seems all right (at least I agree with all you've said), but I think the document syntax is still a problem. According to my experience the need for short version of the title for running head is common. On the other hand I have never typeset any document with titles in the toc different than in the text. With the syntax you proposed, to specify short text for the running head only one has to repeat the long title as toc text (or use hacks with \NoValue). If two optional parameters were exchanged I would be perfectly happy. But then probably some application with thousands of sections with alternative toc entries and no running head would emerge. :-) Expansion --------- A very inspiring mail of M.J. Downes about avoiding expansion of user-supplied text didn't seem to cause any response. Since I always felt that avoiding expansion is the right way to go, I'd like to ask what is the opinion of The LaTeX Team in that matter. This would be too much of a change for LaTeX 2e, but in the LaTeX 3 context the idea seems perfectly feasible. ---------- Shouldn't \DelayedEvaluation be rather named \DelayEvaluation or \EvalOnUse (I mean in a more procedural spirit)? With best Marcin 15-Nov-1999 19:41:14-GMT,3270;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24804 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:41:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA11816; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:40:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA08219; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:39:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446589 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:39:36 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08211 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:39:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp01.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA11769 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:39:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.72.133] ([195.5.72.133]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FL97X500.96O for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:39:05 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199911151939.UAA11769@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:39:15 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L > a) have a look at the output > > b) have a try to define your own TOC layout (take my abstract spec of the > available keys from the previous mail) > > c) can you define the layout you are looking for? > if not: > - are there keys missing for the current templates? > - are there other templates missing that do radically different things? Yes. Entries grouped in a single paragraph. For instance: 1) First section, 3. 2) Second section, 5. 3) Third section, 7. 4)... It so happens that I'm working in a new release of a package for formatting of toc entries which already provides such a kind of indexes in the currently available version. However, adapting it to the suggested templates is turning out to be more difficult as I expected because most of things are handled in a quite different way. The same applies to partial tocs. However, I will persist (I have got no much time, I'm afraid), and if I get some result I will send to this list. > - are the keys perhaps the wrong ones? > > d) share your thoughts and sample trials with us > > e) how difficult is it to implement a given design? \bye Javier 15-Nov-1999 22:30:18-GMT,8069;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29749 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:30:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA09731; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:29:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA06064; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:28:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446683 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:28:43 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA06057 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:28:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from downtown.oche.de (downtown.oche.de [194.94.253.3]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA09709 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:28:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from corona.oche.de (uucp@localhost) by downtown.oche.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id XAA16650 for URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE!LATEX-L; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:20:00 +0100 Received: by corona.oche.de (wUUCP 1.10) id <1j0y@corona.oche.de>; Mon, 15 Nov 99 21:30:24 CET X-Mailer: AmiGate 1.6 (13.11.95) Message-ID: <4e530740@corona.oche.de> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:20:21 CET Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Achim Blumensath Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank Mittelbach wrote: > - share your thoughts and sample trials with us Below is my attempt to define the TOC of the ``Handbook of Mathematical Logic'' which is a collection of articles from different authors where each chapter has its own TOC. There were three (minor) problems: o In the main TOC the extra field is used for the name of the author, so I had to change the template to pass this field as second argument to `title-format'. o The separation betwenn number and title is annoying for the `part' entries where I had to choose (by trial and error) a fixed width of the number field to get the spacing right. o There seems to be no way to add spacing under an entry (`post-v-action') to enlarge the space between a part and the first chapter. Achim ________________________________________________________________________ _ | \_____/ | // Achim Blumensath | \ _ \O/ \___/\ | // blume@corona.oche.de |-< /_\ =o= \ /\ \| \X/ (p^2 - m^2)\psi = 0 |_/ \_ /"\ o----| ____________________________________________________________________\___| \documentclass{article} \usepackage{xcontentsJK} \IgnoreWhiteSpace \newdimen\COpnum@width \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{AB}{6}{ pre-v-action =f0 [\endgraf] \COpre@action, object-decls =f0 [\relax] \COobject@decl, object-indent =l [0pt] \leftskip, number-width =l [0pt] \@tempdima, right-margin-sep =l [25pt] \rightskip, pnum-width =l [15pt] \COpnum@width, number-indent =l [0pt] \parindent, number-format =f1 [#1\hfil] \COnumber@format, title-format =f2 [#1] \COtitle@format, pnum-format =f1 [\hfil#1] \COpnum@format, leaders-action =f0 [.] \COleaders@action, leaders-sep =l [4pt] \@tempdimc } { \ifnum #2>\c@tocdepth \else { \DoParameterAssignments \COpre@action \COobject@decl \parfillskip=-\rightskip \parindent=0pt \@afterindenttrue \interlinepenalty\@M \leavevmode \IfNoValueT{#3}{\def\COnumber@format##1{\hfil}} \hbox to \@tempdima {\COnumber@format{#3}} \nobreak \COtitle@format{#4}{#5} \nobreak \leaders\hbox{ \kern\@tempdimc \hbox{\COleaders@action} \kern\@tempdimc }\hfill \nobreak \hbox to \COpnum@width {\COpnum@format{#6}} \endgraf } \fi } \DeclareCollectionInstance{HML}{contentsobject}{part}{AB} {pre-v-action = \DelayEvaluation{\endgraf\addvspace{4ex plus 4pt}}, title-format = \textsc{#1}, number-format = \textsc{Part~#1:\hfil}, pnum-format = {}, leaders-action = ~, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{4.5em}} \DeclareCollectionInstance{HML}{contentsobject}{chapter}{AB} {pre-v-action = \DelayEvaluation{\endgraf\addvspace{1.5ex plus 1pt}}, title-format = #1\IfNoValueF{#2}{\comma\space\textit{#2}}, number-format = #1.\hfil, pnum-format = \hfil#1, leaders-action = ., leaders-sep = \DelayEvaluation{0.5em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{2.5em}} \DeclareCollectionInstance{HML}{contentsobject}{section}{AB} {object-decls = \small, title-format = #1, number-format = #1.\hfil, pnum-format = \hfil#1, leaders-action = ., leaders-sep = \DelayEvaluation{0.5em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{1em}} \begin{document} \subsection*{The main TOC} \UseCollection{contentsobject}{HML} \setcounter{tocdepth}{2} \contentsobject {1}{1}{part}{A}{Model Theory}{\NoValue}{1} \contentsobject {2}{2}{chapter}{\NoValue}{Guide to Part A}{\NoValue}{3} \contentsobject {3}{2}{chapter}{A.1}{An introduction to first-order logic}{Jon Barwise}{5} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{1}{Foreword}{\NoValue}{6} \contentsobject {5}{3}{section}{2}{How to tell if you are in the realm of first-order logic}{\NoValue}{6} \contentsobject {6}{3}{section}{3}{The formalisation of first-order logic}{\NoValue}{17} \contentsobject {7}{3}{section}{4}{The Completeness Theorem}{\NoValue}{22} \contentsobject {8}{3}{section}{5}{Beyond first-order logic}{\NoValue}{41} \contentsobject {9}{3}{section}{\NoValue}{References}{\NoValue}{45} \contentsobject {10}{2}{chapter}{A.2}{Fundamentals of model theory}{H.\ Jerome Keisler}{47} \contentsobject {11}{3}{section}{1}{Introduction}{\NoValue}{48} \contentsobject {12}{3}{section}{2}{Theories}{\NoValue}{49} \contentsobject {13}{3}{section}{3}{Digrams and compactness}{\NoValue}{57} \contentsobject {14}{3}{section}{4}{L\"owenheim-Skolem theorems}{\NoValue}{63} \contentsobject {15}{3}{section}{5}{Recursively saturated models}{\NoValue}{69} \contentsobject {16}{3}{section}{6}{Large and small models}{\NoValue}{73} \contentsobject {17}{3}{section}{7}{Stable theories}{\NoValue}{82} \contentsobject {18}{3}{section}{8}{Model-theoretic forcing}{\NoValue}{89} \contentsobject {19}{3}{section}{9}{Infinite formulas and extra quantifiers}{\NoValue}{95} \contentsobject {20}{3}{section}{\NoValue}{References}{\NoValue}{101} \contentsobject {21}{2}{chapter}{A.3}{Ultraproducts for algebraists}{Paul C.\ Eklof}{105} \contentsobject {22}{1}{part}{B}{Set Theory}{\NoValue}{315} \contentsobject {23}{2}{chapter}{\NoValue}{Guide to Part B}{\NoValue}{317} \contentsobject {24}{2}{chapter}{B.1}{Axioms of set theory}{J.\ R.\ Schoenfield}{321} \subsection*{The TOC of the first chapter} \setcounter{tocdepth}{3} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{1}{Foreword}{\NoValue}{6} \contentsobject {5}{3}{section}{2}{How to tell if you are in the realm of first-order logic}{\NoValue}{6} \contentsobject {6}{3}{section}{3}{The formalisation of first-order logic}{\NoValue}{17} \contentsobject {7}{3}{section}{4}{The Completeness Theorem}{\NoValue}{22} \contentsobject {8}{3}{section}{5}{Beyond first-order logic}{\NoValue}{41} \contentsobject {9}{3}{section}{\NoValue}{References}{\NoValue}{45} \stop 16-Nov-1999 9:16:39-GMT,3492;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA13998 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 02:16:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA24732; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:03:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA12318; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:02:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445478 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:02:40 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12261 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:02:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from duch.mimuw.edu.pl (duch.mimuw.edu.pl [193.0.96.2]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA24517 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:02:51 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 30864 invoked from network); 16 Nov 1999 08:59:36 -0000 Received: from pa73.warszawa.ppp.tpnet.pl (HELO Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl) (marcin@212.160.52.73) by duch.mimuw.edu.pl with SMTP; 16 Nov 1999 08:59:36 -0000 Received: (from marcin@localhost) by Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA00658; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:07:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199911112332.AAA17817@cistron.nl> <199911140802.JAA11956@craffe.loria.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14384.30231.698701.576525@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:07:35 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Marcin Wolinski Subject: Re: babel 3.7 beta release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911140802.JAA11956@craffe.loria.fr> Denis B. Roegel wrote: > Among the language attributes, there should IMHO be "default encodings." > These encodings would be either a pair of < input encoding, output encoding > > or a pair of lists of encoding, which would enable priorities. > For instance, English should have as a default < ASCII, OT1 >. > French should have < latin1, T1 >, Russian could have < koi8-r, X2 >, etc. > These encodings would then just be triggered when one writes > \selectlanguage{french}, etc. I haven't tried the new version of babel, Unfortunatelly many input encodings can be appropriate for a given language (e.g. for Polish we have at least 3 widely used encodings), and it may be difficult to judge, which of them should be default (this may depend on the operating system). So it probably is not such a good idea to have global defaults. On the other hand using different encodings for a language within one document is somewhat perverse. So it would be reasonable to have per document defaults. Marcin 16-Nov-1999 9:37:57-GMT,4160;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA14355 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 02:37:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA01062; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:35:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA18435; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:34:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445529 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:34:37 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18412 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:34:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.12]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA00997 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:34:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from clipper.ens.fr (clipper-gw.ens.fr [129.199.1.22]) by nef.ens.fr (8.9.3/beig-1.0) with ESMTP id KAA02508 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:34:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from (ebrunet@localhost) by clipper.ens.fr (8.9.2/jb-1.1) References: <199911112332.AAA17817@cistron.nl> <199911140802.JAA11956@craffe.loria.fr> <14384.30231.698701.576525@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.96i Message-ID: <19991116103450.A23913@clipper.ens.fr> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:34:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Eric Brunet Subject: Re: babel 3.7 beta release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14384.30231.698701.576525@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl>; from Marcin Wolinski on Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 10:07:35PM +0100 On Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 10:07:35PM +0100, Marcin Wolinski wrote: > Denis B. Roegel wrote: > > French should have < latin1, T1 >, Russian could have < koi8-r, X2 >, etc. > > These encodings would then just be triggered when one writes > > \selectlanguage{french}, etc. I haven't tried the new version of babel, > > Unfortunatelly many input encodings can be appropriate for a given > language (e.g. for Polish we have at least 3 widely used encodings), > and it may be difficult to judge, which of them should be default > (this may depend on the operating system). So it probably is not such > a good idea to have global defaults. Why not ? There is no way it can hurt. If there are three encoding for polish, then one third of the users will be happy that a default exists, and nothing will change for two thirds of the users nor in good, nor in bad. On the other hand I can understand that you don't want to choose the default encoding and get insults by e-mail from 2/3 of the Poles, but if this choice is done, it's for everybody's benefit. In all case there is absolutely no reason to not establish a default for languages where the (input|font)encoding is evident. I am giving every year practical introducting lessons to LaTeX2e to french students with no computer background, and I always have a bad time to justify why every document must contain \usepackage[babel]{francais} \usepackage[T1]{fontenc} \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} The goal of these practical lessons is to show an alternative to ms-word to humanities student who will have to write down thesis, and you can bet these kinds of details don't help. Éric Brunet 16-Nov-1999 9:39:18-GMT,5861;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA14372 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 02:39:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA29401; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:26:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA17122; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:26:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445521 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:26:31 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17115 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:26:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA29365 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:26:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from bar.loria.fr (bar.loria.fr [152.81.2.13]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id KAA11148; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:26:43 +0100 (MET) Received: (from roegel@localhost) by bar.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3-client/JCG) id KAA02909; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:26:43 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199911160926.KAA02909@bar.loria.fr> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:26:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Denis B. Roegel" Subject: Re: babel 3.7 beta release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14384.30231.698701.576525@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> from "Marcin Wolinski" at Nov 15, 99 10:07:35 pm `Marcin Wolinski' wrote > > Denis B. Roegel wrote: > > Among the language attributes, there should IMHO be "default encodings." > > These encodings would be either a pair of < input encoding, output encoding > > > or a pair of lists of encoding, which would enable priorities. > > For instance, English should have as a default < ASCII, OT1 >. > > French should have < latin1, T1 >, Russian could have < koi8-r, X2 >, etc. > > These encodings would then just be triggered when one writes > > \selectlanguage{french}, etc. I haven't tried the new version of babel, > > Unfortunatelly many input encodings can be appropriate for a given > language (e.g. for Polish we have at least 3 widely used encodings), > and it may be difficult to judge, which of them should be default > (this may depend on the operating system). So it probably is not such > a good idea to have global defaults. > > On the other hand using different encodings for a language within one > document is somewhat perverse. So it would be reasonable to have per > document defaults. Yes, but these defaults should depend on the language. Anyways, there are already defaults, after all: - output encoding default for English, French, Russian, etc.: OT1 (when you write \usepackage[russian,english]{babel} you don't get an output encoding different from OT1, you get OT1, so OT1 is the default output encoding) clearly, this is not suited for French or Russian - input encoding default for English, French, Russian, etc.: ASCII (when you write \usepackage[russian,english]{babel} you don't get an input encoding different from ASCII, you get ASCII, so ASCII is the default input encoding) again, this is not suited for Russian. (As far as I know, the two main input encodings are koi8 and alt, so one of them should be a default) Of course, this can be overridden with things like \usepackage[X2,OT1]{fontenc} \usepackage[koi8-r,ascii]{inputenc} and in addition to this, if you switch from one language/encoding to another in the same document, you have to use commands like \anglais or \russe defined as \newcommand{\langue}[3]{\inputencoding{#2}\renewcommand\latinencoding{#3}% \fontencoding{#3}\selectfont \selectlanguage{#1}} \newcommand{\anglais}{\langue{english}{ascii}{OT1}} \newcommand{\russe}{\langue{russian}{koi8-r}{X2}} Clearly, this seems to me as an inconvenience. One would expect that a decent language package not only selects the correct hyphenation rules, but also appropriate encodings. Nothing prevents the use from overriding this. I know that for some languages there is maybe not only one choice of (input/output) encoding, but this doesn't mean a default cannot be chosen. In my opinion, a default that suits a large proportion (even a minority) of people is better than a default that suits nobody. Don't you agree? Also, for output encodings at least, we can have a list of default encodings in decreasing priority, in case some files are not present. I think some russian package does implement this. It seems to me that nobody writes in more than one language in babel and with different encodings (probably most people are using T1/latin1 for the different languages) and so that nobody has faced the problems I am raising... But with Russian, T1/latin1 does not work! Denis Roegel 16-Nov-1999 9:43:54-GMT,2947;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA14468 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 02:43:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA00599; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:33:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA18051; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:32:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445526 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:32:34 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18042 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:32:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from wisbech.cl.cam.ac.uk (mta1.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.0.15]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA00549 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:32:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk ([128.232.1.34] helo=cl.cam.ac.uk ident=rf) by wisbech.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.092 #1) id 11neyo-0007AG-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:32:50 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:32:49 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: babel 3.7 beta release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:07:35 +0100." <14384.30231.698701.576525@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> [input encodings] > On the other hand using different encodings for a language within one > document is somewhat perverse. unusual, maybe, but not perverse. a regular requirement is the ability to create documents whose sections come from multiple sources (not something it's easy to support, mind you...). if one's original authors are writing in polish (or russian) -- indeed almost any language other than english, given the multitudinous national variants of iso 646 that still hang on in backwaters -- then one may expect > So it would be reasonable to have per > document defaults. i would agree, but i wouldn't want to lose the ability to use other than the default. which rather negates the impact of the `default' mechanism. robin 16-Nov-1999 9:44:48-GMT,3231;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA14477 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 02:44:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02469; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:42:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA19617; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:41:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445553 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:41:39 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19608 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:41:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from tibre.ujf-grenoble.fr (tibre.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.238.31]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02258 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:41:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by tibre.ujf-grenoble.fr (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3/Configured by AD & JE 25/10/1999) with ESMTP id KAA24070 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:38:18 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr (8.7.6/8.6.9) id KAA15609; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:43:32 +0100 (MET) References: <14384.30231.698701.576525@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> <199911160926.KAA02909@bar.loria.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199911160943.KAA15609@mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:43:32 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Thierry Bouche Subject: Re: babel 3.7 beta release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911160926.KAA02909@bar.loria.fr> » I know that for some languages there is maybe not only one choice » of (input/output) encoding, but this doesn't mean a default cannot » be chosen. In my opinion, a default that suits a large proportion » (even a minority) of people is better than a default that suits nobody. » Don't you agree? I don't. I think that your point is interesting for default output encodings (but, imagine that i install many fonts only as T1, what would happen to me in language nohyphenation or english??), but not for input encodings. Maybe babel could emit a warning when you try to typeset some language with not suitable encodings? Thierry Bouche, Grenoble. 16-Nov-1999 19:24:59-GMT,2573;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28054 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:24:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA10509; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:19:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA20231; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:18:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446291 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:18:06 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20223 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:18:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp02.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA10340 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:18:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.78.117] ([195.5.78.117]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FLB1LH06.D7F for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:17:41 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199911161918.UAA10340@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:17:51 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Re: babel 3.7 beta release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L >> On the other hand using different encodings for a language within one >> document is somewhat perverse. So it would be reasonable to have per >> document defaults. > >Yes, but these defaults should depend on the language. No - they depends on the system. A Mac file is the same in Spain and France. A Linux file is the same in Spain and France. But a Spanish file is not the same in Mac and Linux. \bye Javier 16-Nov-1999 19:39:49-GMT,4457;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28423 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:39:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA12488; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:36:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA21049; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:36:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446301 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:36:27 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21042 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:36:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA12445 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:36:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from bar.loria.fr (bar.loria.fr [152.81.2.13]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id UAA10442; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:36:42 +0100 (MET) Received: (from roegel@localhost) by bar.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3-client/JCG) id UAA11914; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:36:42 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199911161936.UAA11914@bar.loria.fr> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:36:42 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Denis B. Roegel" Subject: Re: babel 3.7 beta release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911161918.UAA10340@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> from "Javier Bezos" at Nov 16, 99 08:17:51 pm `Javier Bezos' wrote > > >> On the other hand using different encodings for a language within one > >> document is somewhat perverse. So it would be reasonable to have per > >> document defaults. > > > >Yes, but these defaults should depend on the language. > > No - they depends on the system. A Mac file is the same in Spain > and France. A Linux file is the same in Spain and France. But a > Spanish file is not the same in Mac and Linux. Actually you misunderstood me, because I meant "depend on the language" and not "depend only on the language." Of course, there can be other parameters, like platform, etc. So, we could decide a default platform (:-) or make the platform explicit. I do not see why "A Linux file is the same in Spain and France" should be always true (assuming you mean that such a file is viewed the same way), because this can depend on the linux configuration, or on the configuration of your editor. I have a colleague who has a Russian configuration on his UNIX box and he doesn't see files as I do. When you say "Spanish file is not the same in Mac and Linux," you mean presumably that the keyboard configurations and editor (or other display programs) are different, but a file is a file! So, even if there are several kinds of dependences, I still think that there should be default encodings per language, and if you wish, per platform (the latter information could be obtained from the inputenc package, or from a global option for instance). One thing that should also be clear, is the fact that one can manipulate text in a given encoding, without actually having a configuration corresponding to this encoding. For instance, I have manipulated Russian text in koi8-r encoding, without actually seeing the characters properly other than with xdvi. In this case, I really didn't care about what I saw, nor did I care on the platform. I only fed the Russian environment with koi8-r text, and if koi8-r had been the default input encoding, this would have resulted in no hassle at all. Denis Roegel 16-Nov-1999 21:23:52-GMT,4330;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01118 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:23:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA24225; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:22:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA27306; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:21:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446383 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:21:57 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27299 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:21:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk (wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.41]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA24171 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:22:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06294 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:22:12 GMT Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA08283 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:22:10 GMT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199911162122.VAA08283@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:22:10 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911140924.KAA00478@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> from Frank Mittelbach at "Nov 14, 99 10:24:36 am" > James wrote: > > > > my questions to this list would be now: > > > > > > c) can you define the layout you are looking for? > > > if not: > > > - are there keys missing for the current templates? > > > - are there other templates missing that do radically different things? > > > - are the keys perhaps the wrong ones? > > > > One more key : number-indent =l [0pt] \parindent > > Perhaps it should be `first-line-indent'. Used below. > > yes, probably. and probably all keys should be a little bit more > uniform in names and bahviour, eg if we have right-margin-sep why > don't we have left-margin-sep? This is connected to what I said about fiddly. The choice of names for labels needs to be well though out. The class designer should not need to look at the template source to work out what effects their keyvalues will have. One thing the which the current template doesn't provide is section numbers not typeset in a box. I need this for the toc of `A users guide to spectral sequences' (an early masterpiece of the plain TeXnician's art) How should this best be done? A new key (boxed-number =b) would seem to be the best way. > > It's straightforward but fiddley, > > is it? if so why? because things could be improved or because the > situation is complex and nothing could be done about it? It's mainly the complexity of the situation. Key with orthoganal effects are good. Overloaded keys are bad. The problem with boxed-number is that its far from independent of number-width. But an alternative of say making the template recognize number-width=0 as meaning `don't set this in a box' overloads the number-width key, which I think is worse. Perhaps there are other ways. > - do you have a good suggestion for the name of the above template > `combined'? mmmm maybe a `launcher' template... 16-Nov-1999 21:59:55-GMT,3333;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02114 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:59:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28133; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:59:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29688; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446410 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:38 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29678 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28062 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin385.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.85]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01993 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:53 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00598; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:33:28 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <381A1F7A.20B59B6C@ujf-grenoble.fr> <199910011527.LAA04020@hilbert.math.albany.edu> <199910281728.SAA15046@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <14361.49815.612920.201449@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> <199911022039.VAA00443@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Message-ID: <199911162133.WAA00598@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:33:28 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: section heading templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: > PS: On the matter of silence, perhaps this will help cheer Frank up: I > think I can agree to everything you have written recently on section > headings. seems i missed this ps by Lars until now even though claim i've read his post with the intention to reply real soon (which says something about the state of my inbox) noticed i'm much cheered up these days folks? even though last night i had to fix production problems at work between 2 and 3 and fully awake twins at 6 --- so no, sections headings will have to wait a bit more really good night now frank 16-Nov-1999 21:59:57-GMT,3872;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02120 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:59:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28183; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:59:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29725; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:59:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446418 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:59:02 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29696 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28088 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:59:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin385.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.85]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08132 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:57 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00527; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:49:00 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199911151939.UAA11769@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <199911162049.VAA00527@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:49:00 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911151939.UAA11769@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Javier wrote: > > - are there other templates missing that do radically different things? > > Yes. Entries grouped in a single paragraph. For instance: > > 1) First section, 3. 2) Second section, 5. 3) Third section, 7. 4)... quite right, i have a couple of layouts for tocs that do use those and have halfway tried my hands on that already (but not finished) > It so happens that I'm working in a new release of a package for > formatting of toc entries which already provides such a kind of > indexes in the currently available version. However, adapting may i (we have a look) at the 2e version of this package? i don't mind it being in a non-distributable/working state as long as the underlying ideas can be looked at without too much trouble nevertheless i'm eager to see you trying to produce a template or two for it since only this way we can see where the template concept needs corrections > it to the suggested templates is turning out to be more difficult > as I expected because most of things are handled in a quite > different way. The same applies to partial tocs. However, can you try to explain why or how partial tocs are a problem or handled quite differently in your approach? (not that they are yet really handled in xcontents at all > I will persist (I have got no much time, I'm afraid), and if I get > some result I will send to this list. great frank 16-Nov-1999 22:00:01-GMT,8060;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02125 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:59:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28161; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:59:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29716; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446414 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:57 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29684 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28068 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin385.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.85]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA23340 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:55 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00574; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:29:30 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <14384.19380.269695.118363@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> Message-ID: <199911162129.WAA00574@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:29:30 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: various comments on templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14384.19380.269695.118363@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> Marcin and all, > I've just read all the templates related mail from the last month, and > I'd like to make some comments. Sorry for being so late. no need. it is moving and thats good (hope i find some time to finish more of it soon) > As for the ``sequence of footnotes'' issue: > ------------------------------------------- > If you seriously think of supporting sequences of footnotes (which I > btw find a very annoying habit) you should provide a template type for i agree that it is not really my style at all either but it is an accepted aproach and as such providing for it seems a good idea, or not? > a sequence of note marks and not for a single mark. If sequences are > allowed, single footnote mark is not a self-contained entity. > Consider e.g. a template that puts a frame around the footnote > mark(s). Now to put the frame around 1,2 you have to have it in hand > as a whole. i don't really want to dispute this. but are there seriously layouts that treat this as units? perhaps there are and perhaps it is the wrong question anyway since if one provides this functionality one should probably provide it all way through. so assuming we intend to provide it all way through what would be a sensible template type for it? the main problem i see right now is that the tempate types as currently defined do only work with a fixed set of arguments. this would allow for three courses to take: - say that this is not flexible enough and there is the need to allow (somehow) for a varying number of arguments to templates --- the course i don't like much for obvious reasons :-) - consider (on the LaTeX level) a syntax like \begin{footnotegroup} \footnote{..}\footnote{..} ... \end{footnotegroup} and map the footnotegroup env somehow into an environment template which somehow modifies the behaviour of the inner \footnote's - consider to provide for structured arguments to templates, eg (comma-separated lists) or something like that. --- the latter may in fact be necessary in other circumstances anyway (supporting \cite comes to mind). how this is actually then mapped to syntax is a different matter and i must confess i have no immediate idea that seems appealing. any thoughts? > Section heads > ------------- > The template type seems all right (at least I agree with all you've > said), but I think the document syntax is still a problem. agreed too > According to my experience the need for short version of the title for > running head is common. On the other hand I have never typeset any > document with titles in the toc different than in the text. With the i have (a lot) not necessarily actually different text but for example with fine tuning of a publication you often have to provide line breaking information to the various incarnations of the title. oups: but this is bloody visual formatting and shouldn't be done anyway, should it? :-) but the fact remains that most of those optional arguments are precisely for such reasons there and not (only) to support some abstract document model better > syntax you proposed, to specify short text for the running head only > one has to repeat the long title as toc text (or use hacks with > \NoValue). If two optional parameters were exchanged I would be > perfectly happy. your idea sounds perfectly correct for the major applications and i will use it when i write up the heading template stuff. and even if: > But then probably some application with thousands of > sections with alternative toc entries and no running head would > emerge. :-) that would not really be a problem, would it? if it is a one off document then the writer will have to do the extra work in adding all the optional arguments containing the same text, but if it is a real major application then having extra tags or your own variations is no problem. after all with xparse reordering is not that difficult and could be done for large jobs even in the preamble > Expansion > --------- > A very inspiring mail of M.J. Downes about avoiding expansion of > user-supplied text didn't seem to cause any response. Since I always > felt that avoiding expansion is the right way to go, I'd like to ask > what is the opinion of The LaTeX Team in that matter. This would be his post is in some sense the result of some internal Team disucssion (though developed by Michael to keep the record of originally straight) > too much of a change for LaTeX 2e, but in the LaTeX 3 context the idea > seems perfectly feasible. yes and i would be very glad if his ideas would be taken further and really tested (even in the 2e context) by first providing a package and somebody really trying to test it against a large number of documents and see how far we get. right now i don't want to concentrate personally on any of these more technically issues but rather on getting finally a design interface to LaTeX the way i always hoped it would possible, but i do consider the protection issue an important one and, yes it would be nice if his post would interest some people to get interested enough to work on this further with him (and by the way, he is one of THEM as well:-) > ---------- > Shouldn't \DelayedEvaluation be rather named \DelayEvaluation or shouldn't it? i thought it was named \DelayEvaluation when we put it out; must gave got another "ed" traveling to your country :-) > \EvalOnUse (I mean in a more procedural spirit)? sounds to me like a better name, thanks. will think about it. good night frank 16-Nov-1999 22:00:14-GMT,5545;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02134 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:00:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28207; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:59:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29734; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:59:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446422 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:59:06 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29702 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28098 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:59:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin385.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.85]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28160 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:59 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00504; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:42:37 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <4e530740@corona.oche.de> Message-ID: <199911162042.VAA00504@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:42:37 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <4e530740@corona.oche.de> Achim wrote: > > - share your thoughts and sample trials with us > > Below is my attempt to define the TOC of the ``Handbook of Mathematical > Logic'' which is a collection of articles from different authors where > each chapter has its own TOC. There were three (minor) problems: great; it is really gratifying to see that the concepts are actually being used by somebody other than me and i think looks promising as for the minor problems: > o In the main TOC the extra field is used for the name of the author, > so I had to change the template to pass this field as second > argument to `title-format'. you are right in assuming that the unused field in the toc data structure should be used for passing on something like an authors name. i find it acceptable to assume that for special applications (and i would consider a multi-authored book a somewhat special application) one would need specialized templates. however, it should be evaluated it it isn't possible to provide for this case in the standard templates already (at least better) and you show one way to do this. you have solved that problem in your example code by making title-format an f2 but defaulting it to just a single argument, ie > title-format =f2 [#1] \COtitle@format, and then have a spec like that: > title-format = #1\IfNoValueF{#2}{\comma\space\textit{#2}}, to append the second argument if available. another possible approach would be to consider title-format, number-format as something only responsible for typesetting the immediate text (eg setting it in a certain font etc) and have a) and additional key that is responsible to format the extra text if available and b) another key that is resonsible to put all those together somehow. don't know. at some point in the code smebody has to check for NoValue in `number' and `extra' and has to make some decision about it. i just wonder whether it should be done in the key values or hidden in the templates? > o The separation betwenn number and title is annoying for the `part' > entries where I had to choose (by trial and error) a fixed width of > the number field to get the spacing right. this is definitely a restriction in the template definition which should be lifted. there are enough designs which define that the number should be a fixed value away from following text, or in that case that the number and the text should simply form a single sequence. (Heading specs would have comparable requirements) so there need to be a better spec replacing or adding to: \TemplateKey{number-width}{l} {Width of the space reserved for the document object number. Space is reserved regardless of whether or not the number is present.} {} any suggestions to offer anybody? > o There seems to be no way to add spacing under an entry > (`post-v-action') to enlarge the space between a part and the first > chapter. quite right. call it forgotten. it would not hurt and sometimes help and the default could be to do nothing thanks for enlarging the test samples this is really helping a lot frank 17-Nov-1999 12:03:31-GMT,3530;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA20362 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 05:03:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA11810; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:50:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA02055; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:49:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445530 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:49:36 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02040 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:49:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from duch.mimuw.edu.pl (duch.mimuw.edu.pl [193.0.96.2]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA11579 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:49:54 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 27842 invoked from network); 17 Nov 1999 11:47:28 -0000 Received: from pa116.warszawa.ppp.tpnet.pl (HELO Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl) (marcin@212.160.52.116) by duch.mimuw.edu.pl with SMTP; 17 Nov 1999 11:47:28 -0000 Received: (from marcin@localhost) by Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA13387; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:03:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199911112332.AAA17817@cistron.nl> <199911140802.JAA11956@craffe.loria.fr> <14384.30231.698701.576525@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> <19991116103450.A23913@clipper.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14386.35738.923794.267211@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:03:54 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Marcin Wolinski Subject: babel: default encodings To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <19991116103450.A23913@clipper.ens.fr> I have stated too strong an opinion. It probably should have read ``there are languages for which global defaults don't seem to be such a good idea''. So now I propose the following scheme: Document preamble can contain commands of the following kind (a better command name is needed): \DeclareLanguageEncodings{french}{latin1}{T1} \DeclareLanguageEncodings{polish}{latin2}{OT4} That means that every fragment of the document marked as written in french is to be treated as latin1 and typeset with T1 fonts. Accordingly for fragments marked as polish text. Obviously it should be possible to override these settings with usual encoding selection commands inside apropriate text fragments. \DeclareLanguageEncodings could also be put directly in the language definition files thus serving as global per language default. (I haven't seen babel 3.7, so I don't know how does this fit with the overall scheme.) Marcin 15-Oct-1999 15:33:41-GMT,6214;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20095 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:33:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA04200; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:09:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445352 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:09:51 +0200 Received: from abel.math.umu.se (abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04146 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:09:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by abel.math.umu.se (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA28951 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:09:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se (Unverified) References: <199910041250.NAA27424@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <199910011238.OAA00640@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <199910070958.LAA00712@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id RAA04160 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:11:24 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Experimental `template' interface code To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199910081840.UAA01185@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Frank, > > > PS: I've given some thought to the footnote template type, and so far I > > haven't been able to come up with anything that would require more than the > > single argument for the footnote text. (A footnote document commands might > >well, current latex already has two for \footnotetext (one being the text and >one being the number to use or \NoValue) I would rather have thought that the number should be taken from a counter that was managed by the template itself, i.e., the template has one key for name of counter to use and some of the keys which control formatting should (indirectly) refer to this counter. This makes more sense to me, since there is no point in having footnote numbers assigned in any other way than in sequence. On the other hand, I have now managed to come up with something which, if it is to be handled by footnote templates, definately should become an additional argument to the template. Consider the situation that a LaTeX document containing footnotes is to be typeset as some sort of hypertext. What is then the most convenient (for the reader) thing to do with the footnotes? I would think it is to make links for them (click on the link, get the footnote text on screen). The clickable area of a link in hypertext is, by convention, longer than the one or two characters used for a footnote number, and hence a footnote template that typesets footnotes this way would need an additional "text to make the link text" argument. [snip] >in that case please think about specs for the base templates (not necessarily >the implementations though that is fun as well) that you can think would be >sensible, ie what should they do (the templates) or more exactly what layout >should they provide and what could be possible attributes in each case. > >i have in fact gone half through this excerise last night and implemented a >few rough drafts and i intend to show them for discussion end of the month as >i will get away for a short vacation tomorrow at 4:00 > >in the meantime thoughts on such base templates and their attributes would be >welcome (i didn't got very far last night) The first thing to think about seems to be where the footnote text should go. I can think of at least three different categories: table footnotes end of page footnotes (the current kind) end of section/chapter/.../document footnotes Table footnotes should definately be available in standard LaTeX; I have often missed them. End of footnotes are perhaps rather a suitable feature for some package, but they should be planned for. Next one may consider how the text is stored until it actually gets put on a page: typeset or not typeset? Typeset material can be broken into lines (this is how it is today, I believe) or not broken into lines (unless there are some _very_ long paragraphs, it should work fine to put it in a \parbox of width \maxdimen). Typeset material can be transferred using some \insert mechanism (the only thing that works for end of page footnotes) or by being manually stacked in a box register. Material that is not typeset can be stored internally in a macro or \toks register, or externally by being written to a file (in the case of a humanities paper containing some hundred pages of footnotes, this is the only thing that could work). Then there is all the actual formatting, but I think I'll skip that. A neat math application for end of document footnotes is answers to exercises. (That's in a way how Appendix A of The TeXbook is made.) A problem with footnotes that aren't typeset until later is of course that whatever causes them to be typeset (a hook or an explicit user command) must access the formatting attribues of the footnote template. Should there be two templates for such footnotes, or should the template only be used when things are getting typeset, or should it be possible to call the template in two different ways? Lars Hellström 14-Nov-1999 7:42:24-GMT,4673;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA11880 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:42:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA27224; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 08:41:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA04353; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 08:41:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445118 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 08:41:01 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04343 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 08:40:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from psl-palm.technion.ac.il ([132.68.48.165]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA27182 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 08:41:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from tkol by psl-palm.technion.ac.il with local-esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11muMy-0002jn-00; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:46:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:46:40 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Tomer Kol Subject: Re: babel 3.7 beta release To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911112332.AAA17817@cistron.nl> On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Johannes L. Braams wrote: > I am releived to finally be able to tell you that I have > finalized Babel release 3.7. > - Support for typesetting Hebrew (and potential support for > typesetting other rigth-to-left written languages) is now > available thanks to Rama Porrat and Boris Lavva. Hi, A few quick fixes: 1. There is a bug in rlbabel.def that causes problems when using underline in equations inside hebrew sections (note it was OK in $$ but not inside \[ \]). Fix: In Hebrew.dtx (line ~1847) change from \def\underline#1{\@@@underline{\if@rl\R{#1}\else #1\fi}} to \def\underline#1{\@@@underline{\ifmmode#1\else\if@rl\R{#1}\else #1\fi\fi}} 2. Defining the letter name "sin" conflicts with \TeX's math mode sine. Fix: in hebrew.fdd (line ~283) change from %<+LHEenc>\let\sin=\shin to %<+LHEenc>\let\HEBsin=\shin 3. Add a note to the docomuntation regarding the use of the oldjaf10.mf font: % % \item \textbf{oldjaf10.mf} % This font, used for |\emph| was not identifies as slanted. As a % result, a nested |\emph| had no effect (\LaTeX checks if the current % font is slanted or not, and toggles normal and slanted font) % A \emph{font\_slant} parameter should be added to \emph{oldjaf10.mf}, % it should look like: % \begin{verbatim} % font_quad 1em#; % font_slant 0.001pt#; %%#TK added to identify as slanted % font_normal_space 3.30033pt#; % font_normal_stretch 0.15em#; % font_normal_shrink 0.1em#; % font_x_height 3.30033pt#; % \end{verbatim} % The slant value is very small to ensure no influence on appearance. These are the fixes that has to do with Babel & Hebrew alone. I've found them about a year ago, when I prepared a distribution for the faculty (you can find it in http://www.ee.technion.ac.il/~tomer/TeX/). As far as I remember I emailed them to Boris at the time. There are many other patches/fixes that are needed if you want to use the Hebrew support AND hyperref, but I haven't updated it in the last half year or so, so it may not work with current versions of hyperref. I'll update it "sometime", when I have the time. Tomer ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tomer Kol Email: tkol@psl.technion.ac.il Electrical Engineering Dept. tomer@techunix.technion.ac.il Technion - Israel Inst. of Technology tkol@psl-palm.technion.ac.il Haifa 32000, ISRAEL 17-Nov-1999 12:03:38-GMT,3566;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA20368 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 05:03:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA12735; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:56:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA02755; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:56:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445538 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:56:04 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02726 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:56:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from lumiere.idris.fr (lumiere.idris.fr [130.84.8.14]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA12618 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:56:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from murnau.idris.fr (murnau.idris.fr [130.84.8.20]) by lumiere.idris.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17088 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:56:04 +0100 (MET) Received: (from gaulle@localhost) by murnau.idris.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id MAA00392; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:56:03 +0100 Message-ID: <199911171156.MAA00392@murnau.idris.fr> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:56:03 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Bernard GAULLE Subject: Re: encodings pair (was: babel 3.7 beta release) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L >>>>> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:26:42 +0100, "Denis B. Roegel" said: > Among the language attributes, there should IMHO be "default encodings." > These encodings would be either a pair of < input encoding, output encoding > > or a pair of lists of encoding, which would enable priorities. > For instance, English should have as a default < ASCII, OT1 >. > French should have < latin1, T1 >, [...] definitely no, < ASCII, OT1 > is still a good default pair for French, assuming that other pairs could be < mltex, hyphenation-with-diacritics > or < tex, standard-hyphenation > or ... English people, like French, have also good taste (i don't speak about beef ;=) and often use words with diacritics. So i think, IMHO, that the default < ASCII, OT1 > is sometimes estimated as a poor default even they don't have a lot of such words to hyphenate correctly. That's just to say that a default is never the good choice for the whole community, it's just the lowest acceptable choice. The last but not... Since standard TeX engines don't accept dynamic patterns loading (La)TeX formats should contain customized data like language patterns and thus at run time you can't expect that it's the good format for your language (the good fonts, the good patterns) etc. nor force any default depending of theses choices. You only can expect to have CM and US-English patterns, that's all. --bg 17-Nov-1999 12:11:54-GMT,5326;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA20520 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 05:11:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA11813; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:50:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA02164; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:50:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445534 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:50:27 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02068 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:49:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from duch.mimuw.edu.pl (duch.mimuw.edu.pl [193.0.96.2]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA11612 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:50:02 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 27838 invoked from network); 17 Nov 1999 11:47:25 -0000 Received: from pa116.warszawa.ppp.tpnet.pl (HELO Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl) (marcin@212.160.52.116) by duch.mimuw.edu.pl with SMTP; 17 Nov 1999 11:47:25 -0000 Received: (from marcin@localhost) by Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA13398; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:40:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <14384.19380.269695.118363@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> <199911162129.WAA00574@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14386.37944.484104.416928@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:40:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Marcin Wolinski Subject: Re: various comments on templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911162129.WAA00574@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Frank Mittelbach pisze: > > As for the ``sequence of footnotes'' issue: > > ------------------------------------------- > > ... > > a sequence of note marks and not for a single mark. If sequences are > > allowed, single footnote mark is not a self-contained entity. > > i don't really want to dispute this. but are there seriously layouts that > treat this as units? perhaps there are and perhaps it is the wrong question > anyway since if one provides this functionality one should probably provide it > all way through. Precisely. For the footnotes this is a border case. But with multiple \cite's it is easier to expect a need for putting sth different between the last but one and the last item than between others (like [X, Y, Z, and T]). That would make three different kinds of \cite's. In this case passing a sequence is much cleaner. > so assuming we intend to provide it all way through what would be a sensible > template type for it? the main problem i see right now is that the tempate > types as currently defined do only work with a fixed set of arguments. this > would allow for three courses to take: > > ... > > - consider to provide for structured arguments to templates, eg > (comma-separated lists) or something like that. --- the latter may in fact > be necessary in other circumstances anyway (supporting \cite comes to > mind). how this is actually then mapped to syntax is a different > matter and > i must confess i have no immediate idea that seems appealing. I feel the template here has fixed number of arguments but one of them happens to be a sequence (the elements of this sequence are in a way homogenous, you know). This opens the issue of processing sequences (just passing them doesn't seem to be a problem, could sequences be written {in}{a}{more TeXy}{way} instead to be comma delimited? This would relive us from enclosing in a group elements already containing a comma). Probably a kind of an abstract data type for sequences should be defined. Common needs inside template code would probably be taking the first/last element of a sequence (shortening the sequence) and a foreach loop. Of these foreach loop is easy. On the other hand destructive operations are a problem since the sequence is passed as an argument and not a named storage bin. Some \BuildQueue{name}{#3} could be introduced, but this is just plain ugly. > > ---------- > > Shouldn't \DelayedEvaluation be rather named \DelayEvaluation or > > shouldn't it? i thought it was named \DelayEvaluation when we put it out; > must gave got another "ed" traveling to your country :-) I would swear I've seen it written this way somewhere, but generally oops on my side. From that you can easily guess that I haven't actually written any template.:-) 17-Nov-1999 12:51:25-GMT,5302;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA21263 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 05:51:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20502; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:39:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA09705; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:38:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445639 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:38:24 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09694 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:38:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20385 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:38:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from craffe.loria.fr (craffe.loria.fr [152.81.1.31]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id NAA14035; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:38:41 +0100 (MET) Received: (from roegel@localhost) by craffe.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3-client/JCG) id NAA17224; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:38:40 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199911171238.NAA17224@craffe.loria.fr> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:38:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Denis B. Roegel" Subject: Re: encodings pair (was: babel 3.7 beta release) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911171156.MAA00392@murnau.idris.fr> from "Bernard GAULLE" at Nov 17, 99 12:56:03 pm `Bernard GAULLE' wrote > ... > Since standard TeX engines don't accept dynamic patterns loading > (La)TeX formats should contain customized data like language patterns > and thus at run time you can't expect that it's the good format > for your language (the good fonts, the good patterns) etc. nor force > any default depending of theses choices. You only can expect to > have CM and US-English patterns, that's all. However... When you write \usepackage[frenchb]{babel}, babel tries to load the french hyphenation patterns, and if they are not available, tells you so. The fact that such or such patterns are available at a given installation is a configuration of that installation. If you get a document with \usepackage[frenchb]{babel} and you don't have the right hyphenation patterns, you get a wrong output, but it is your fault, because you have not made sure that the installation fits the file. To some extent the same goes with encodings, both input and output. Given the features of TeX, the choice of the output encoding is relevant for hyphenation, or if you prefer, the brand of TeX you use (TeX, MlTeX, ...) is not independent of the encoding of fonts you use. I think we agree on this. The point is that common decisions can be made a default, even if they do not suit everybody. And I think most french users of LaTeX use T1 as an output encoding (I am confident that such would be the result of a survey). This is not to deny that there are other ways of doing things, just that it is sensible to have defaults. In this debate, it is also useful to keep the distinction clear between "consensual defaults" and "local configurations." I am a strong opponent to local configurations that make encodings and other things an implicit *local* default. This goes against portability. But I am an advocate of global (consensual) defaults, which do not hinder portability, and make life easier for a certain number of people. Returning to babel: it also has some consensual defaults for things like language specific expressions ("Table of contents," "References," etc.) for which, at least in some languages, there can be several choices. So, what babel currently provides does not suit everybody, but it suits a majority. There are various ways of implementing the defaults I advocate, but, in some way, they should be tied to the language. I mean, the defaults should be chosen at the time the language is selected (but the defaults can depend on other factors, as I said in another message). The defaults can be made part of babel, or they can be made part of some extra language package. For instance, the french package could be extended to take options, one of these options being for instance "latin1-t1." A certain option from the french package would be the default option. It is not much work, and it would benefit to all. Denis Roegel 17-Nov-1999 14:02:30-GMT,5471;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22589 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:02:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04592; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:53:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA21920; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:52:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445801 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:52:39 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21882 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:52:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from lumiere.idris.fr (lumiere.idris.fr [130.84.8.14]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04533 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:52:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from murnau.idris.fr (murnau.idris.fr [130.84.8.20]) by lumiere.idris.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02109 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:52:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (from gaulle@localhost) by murnau.idris.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA00433; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:52:45 +0100 Message-ID: <199911171352.OAA00433@murnau.idris.fr> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:52:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Bernard GAULLE Subject: Re: encodings pair (was: babel 3.7 beta release) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L >>>>> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:38:40 +0100, "Denis B. Roegel" said: DR> When you write \usepackage[frenchb]{babel}, babel tries to load DR> the french hyphenation patterns, definitely no, you can't dynamically load hyphenation files at run time with std TeX engines. DR> If you get a document with \usepackage[frenchb]{babel} and you don't DR> have the right hyphenation patterns, you get a wrong output, DR> but it is your fault, no, the end user is nearly never the person who installed TeX and he generally don't know what he can do or not at the stage of languages. DR> To some extent the same goes with encodings, both input and output. DR> Given the features of TeX, the choice of the output encoding DR> is relevant for hyphenation, hum, i guess you wanted to say: hyphenation is relevant of the font in use. DR> or if you prefer, the brand of TeX DR> you use (TeX, MlTeX, ...) is not independent of the encoding of DR> fonts you use. I think we agree on this. no, any TeX using mltex option is independent of encodings. You can use CM, EC, Times, ... what you want with any related encoding. It would be so easy if all formats around the world were done with the mltex option. It's free, standard (as an option can be) and without any danger. But life is different ;=) DR> The point is that DR> common decisions can be made a default, even if they do not suit DR> everybody. And I think most french users of LaTeX use T1 as an output DR> encoding I hope NO, for many reasons i've no time to discuss here (though i hope they switch to T1 when really needed). T1 is not a necessary TeX default encoding for a lot of people and languages. DR> This is not to deny that there are other ways of doing things, DR> just that it is sensible to have defaults. In this debate, it is DR> also useful to keep the distinction clear between "consensual defaults" DR> and "local configurations." I am a strong opponent to local DR> configurations that make encodings and other things an implicit *local* DR> default. This goes against portability. no again. Portability means that what you "port" (eg send to someone else) will immediately run without change. But, unfortunately, all language dependent documents need a language hyphenation file you may or may not have in your format, depending of the interest shown by the installing people. I really understand why you are opposite to local configurations but i also must say that's the opposite of the end user choices. I don't agree that local configurations are against portability but i agree that some automatic process is missing to let show in a source document what the local defaults are (which a XML application could state). DR> There are various ways of implementing the defaults I advocate, DR> but, in some way, they should be tied to the language. I mean, DR> the defaults should be chosen at the time the language is selected DR> (but the defaults can depend on other factors, as I said in another DR> message). [...] DR> It is not much work, and it would benefit to all. it seems you never read my report (a contribution to the LaTeX3 project, vt15d02.tex, dated 21 march 1994!) which list all TeX mechanisms for language processing. not much work, really? Let's see how many years we still wait for that... --bg 17-Nov-1999 14:41:41-GMT,6757;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23448 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:41:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA11925; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:27:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA27048; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:27:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445833 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:27:06 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27033 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:27:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA11825 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:27:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from bar.loria.fr (bar.loria.fr [152.81.2.13]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id PAA21901; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:27:12 +0100 (MET) Received: (from roegel@localhost) by bar.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3-client/JCG) id PAA26271; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:27:12 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199911171427.PAA26271@bar.loria.fr> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:27:12 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Denis B. Roegel" Subject: Re: encodings pair (was: babel 3.7 beta release) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911171352.OAA00433@murnau.idris.fr> from "Bernard GAULLE" at Nov 17, 99 02:52:45 pm `Bernard GAULLE' wrote > > >>>>> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:38:40 +0100, "Denis B. Roegel" said: > DR> When you write \usepackage[frenchb]{babel}, babel tries to load > DR> the french hyphenation patterns, > > definitely no, you can't dynamically load hyphenation files > at run time with std TeX engines. Sorry, I meant "select" instead of "load." I could have said "activates" or something like that. > DR> If you get a document with \usepackage[frenchb]{babel} and you don't > DR> have the right hyphenation patterns, you get a wrong output, > DR> but it is your fault, > > no, the end user is nearly never the person who installed TeX > and he generally don't know what he can do or not at the stage of > languages. Well, whose fault is it, then? You can argue both ways: the people who installed TeX, or the people who accept to live in a crippled TeX environment. My point was that it is the fault of somebody on the side where the file is used. > DR> To some extent the same goes with encodings, both input and output. > DR> Given the features of TeX, the choice of the output encoding > DR> is relevant for hyphenation, > > hum, i guess you wanted to say: hyphenation is relevant of the font in use. No, I meant what I wrote. > DR> or if you prefer, the brand of TeX > DR> you use (TeX, MlTeX, ...) is not independent of the encoding of > DR> fonts you use. I think we agree on this. > > no, any TeX using mltex option is independent of encodings. You can > use CM, EC, Times, ... what you want with any related encoding. > It would be so easy if all formats around the world were done > with the mltex option. It's free, standard (as an option can be) and > without any danger. But life is different ;=) I meant "the brand of TeX you are using is *usually* not independent of the (font) encoding you use." Who uses mltex? Some people, but not everybody. Besides, I haven't followed the latest developments of MlTeX, but it used to be the case that fonts had to have a certain number of free slots for the "fictitious characters" MlTeX creates, in case these \charsubdef is used. Is this no longer true? If it is still true, it means that some fonts cannot be used in MlTeX and at the same time remapping/virtualization to occur. > DR> The point is that > DR> common decisions can be made a default, even if they do not suit > DR> everybody. And I think most french users of LaTeX use T1 as an output > DR> encoding > > I hope NO, for many reasons i've no time to discuss here (though > i hope they switch to T1 when really needed). T1 is not a necessary > TeX default encoding for a lot of people and languages. Well, let's make a survey! > DR> This is not to deny that there are other ways of doing things, > DR> just that it is sensible to have defaults. In this debate, it is > DR> also useful to keep the distinction clear between "consensual defaults" > DR> and "local configurations." I am a strong opponent to local > DR> configurations that make encodings and other things an implicit *local* > DR> default. This goes against portability. > > no again. Portability means that what you "port" (eg send to someone else) > will immediately run without change. But, unfortunately, all language > dependent documents need a language hyphenation file you may > or may not have > in your format, depending of the interest shown by the installing people. I think some day soon, we will have format generation on demand, like we have font generation on demand, so that this will no longer be an issue. I actually wonder why this has not yet been done. > DR> There are various ways of implementing the defaults I advocate, > DR> but, in some way, they should be tied to the language. I mean, > DR> the defaults should be chosen at the time the language is selected > DR> (but the defaults can depend on other factors, as I said in another > DR> message). [...] > DR> It is not much work, and it would benefit to all. > > it seems you never read my report (a contribution to the LaTeX3 project, > vt15d02.tex, dated 21 march 1994!) which list all TeX mechanisms for > language processing. not much work, really? Let's see how many years > we still wait for that... No, I haven't read it... Denis Roegel 17-Nov-1999 19:31:10-GMT,3799;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02364 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:31:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA07061; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:30:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA08849; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:28:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446109 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:27:59 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08838 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:27:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.31]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA06825 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:28:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from ux-gh-05.csv.warwick.ac.uk (ux-gh-05 [137.205.236.20]) by snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29120 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:28:16 GMT Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by ux-gh-05.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01552 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:28:14 GMT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199911171928.TAA01552@ux-gh-05.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:28:13 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911162049.VAA00527@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> from Frank Mittelbach at "Nov 16, 99 09:49:00 pm" > Javier wrote: > >>> - are there other templates missing that do radically different things? > > Yes. Entries grouped in a single paragraph. For instance: > > 1) First section, 3. 2) Second section, 5. 3) Third section, 7. 4)... > quite right, i have a couple of layouts for tocs that do use those and have > halfway tried my hands on that already (but not finished) me too But I took my code from Javier's titletoc package. Anyway here are the intances for `Homology Theory', James Vick, GTM #145, Springer. The leaders could be \leaders\hbox{\kern\@tempdimc\hbox{leader@action}} or xleaders...? as this would make the effect of leaders-sep easier to guess. \DeclareCollectionInstance{homology}{contentsobject}{chapter}{JK} {number-format=\textsc{Chapter~ #1}\\, boxed-number=false, pre-v-action= \addvspace{10pt}, leaders-sep= 1.5pt} \DeclareCollectionInstance{homology}{contentsobject}{section}{JK} { object-indent=12pt, number-format=\relax, leaders-sep = 1.5pt} And contentsobject template contains \if@boxed@number \IfNoValueT{#3}{\def\COnumber@format##1{\hfil}} \hbox to \@tempdima {\COnumber@format{#3}} \else \IfNoValueT{#3}{\def\COnumber@format##1{\relax}} {\COnumber@format{#3}} \fi 18-Nov-1999 22:34:46-GMT,9702;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10459 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:34:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA10666; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 23:33:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA16917; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 23:32:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446033 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 23:32:36 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16907 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 23:32:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from downtown.oche.de (downtown.oche.de [194.94.253.3]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA10593 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 23:32:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from corona.oche.de (uucp@localhost) by downtown.oche.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id XAA03812 for URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE!LATEX-L; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 23:20:04 +0100 Received: by corona.oche.de (wUUCP 1.10) id <1j3q@corona.oche.de>; Thu, 18 Nov 99 21:40:33 CET X-Mailer: AmiGate 1.6 (13.11.95) Message-ID: <071c107f@corona.oche.de> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:24:51 CET Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Achim Blumensath Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank Mittelbach wrote: > thanks for enlarging the test samples this is really helping a lot Well, here is another sample. I tried to implement per chatper TOCs. The main problems I encountered were o The old version of `processcontents' deletes the TOC file after reading it. (So the second TOC is empty.) o In order to have a clean interface between `processcontents' and `contentsobject' I moved the test (depth > tocdepth) out of the latter. Instead, `processcontents' defines a function \IfPrintTOCEntry which takes the serial number, depth, and some code, and decides whether the entry should be printed or not. PS: The implementation below is rather quick and ugly. Achim ________________________________________________________________________ _ | \_____/ | // Achim Blumensath | \ _ \O/ \___/\ | // blume@corona.oche.de |-< /_\ =o= \ /\ \| \X/ (p^2 - m^2)\psi = 0 |_/ \_ /"\ o----| ____________________________________________________________________\___| === test.tex === \documentclass{article} \RequirePackage{xparse} \RequirePackage{template} \IgnoreWhiteSpace \DeclareTemplateType{contentsobject}{6} \DeclareTemplateType{processcontents}{1} \def\comma{,} \newdimen\COpnum@width \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{AB}{6}{ pre-v-action =f0 [\endgraf] \COpre@action, object-decls =f0 [\relax] \COobject@decl, object-indent =l [0pt] \leftskip, number-width =l [0pt] \@tempdima, right-margin-sep =l [25pt] \rightskip, pnum-width =l [15pt] \COpnum@width, number-indent =l [0pt] \parindent, number-format =f1 [#1\hfil] \COnumber@format, title-format =f2 [#1] \COtitle@format, pnum-format =f1 [\hfil#1] \COpnum@format, leaders-action =f0 [.] \COleaders@action, leaders-sep =l [4pt] \@tempdimc } { \IfPrintTOCEntry{#1}{#2} { \DoParameterAssignments \COpre@action \COobject@decl \parfillskip=-\rightskip \parindent=0pt \@afterindenttrue \interlinepenalty\@M \leavevmode \IfNoValueT{#3}{\def\COnumber@format##1{\hfil}} \hbox to \@tempdima {\COnumber@format{#3}} \nobreak \COtitle@format{#4}{#5} \nobreak \leaders\hbox{ \kern\@tempdimc \hbox{\COleaders@action} \kern\@tempdimc }\hfill \nobreak \hbox to \COpnum@width {\COpnum@format{#6}} \endgraf } } \newif\if@TOC@ChapterFound \newcounter{tocstart} \newcounter{tocmindepth} \def\IfPTE@main#1#2#3{\ifnum #2>\c@tocdepth\else#3\fi} \def\IfPTE@chapter#1#2#3{ \ifnum #1<\c@tocstart % skip entries, until the chapter is found \else \ifnum #1=\c@tocstart \c@tocmindepth=#2 % chapter is found, next entries will be printed \else \ifnum #2>\c@tocdepth \else \ifnum #2>\c@tocmindepth % if end of chapter isn't reached, print entry #3 \else \c@tocmindepth=\c@tocdepth % if end is reached, don't print any entries \advance\c@tocmindepth by 1 \fi \fi \fi \fi } \DeclareTemplate{processcontents}{AB}{1}{ start-action =f0 [\relax] \COstart@action, end-action =f0 [\relax] \COend@action, file-name =n [\jobname] \COfile@name, file-extension =n \COextension, contents-depth =c [2] \c@tocdepth, contents-start =c [0] \c@tocstart, collection-id =n [] \COcollection@id, heading =f0 [\section*]\COheading, %actully use some instance name =n [\contentsname] \COname, header-format =f0 [\MakeUpperCase] \COheader@format } { \DoParameterAssignments \COheading{\COname \@mkboth{\CO@header@format\COname}{\CO@header@format\COname}} \begingroup \UseCollection{contentsobject}{\COcollection@id} \makeatletter \IfNoValueTF{#1} {\global\let\IfPrintTOCEntry\IfPTE@main} {\global\let\IfPrintTOCEntry\IfPTE@chapter \global\c@tocstart=#1} \@TOC@ChapterFoundfalse \COstart@action \@input{\COfile@name.\COextension} \@nobreakfalse \endgroup } \DeclareDocumentCommand{\contentsobject}{mmmmmmm} {\UseInstance{contentsobject}{#3}{#1}{#2}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}} \DeclareDocumentCommand{\ABtableofcontents}{o} {\IfNoValueTF{#1} {\UseInstance{processcontents}{maintoc}{\NoValue}} {\UseInstance{processcontents}{chaptertoc}{#1}} } \DeclareInstance{processcontents}{maintoc}{AB} {file-extension = toc, contents-depth = 2} \DeclareInstance{processcontents}{chaptertoc}{AB} {file-extension = toc, contents-depth = 3, heading = \subsection*} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{part}{AB} {pre-v-action = \DelayEvaluation{\endgraf\addvspace{4ex plus 4pt}}, title-format = \textsc{#1}, number-format = \textsc{Part~#1:\hfil}, pnum-format = {}, leaders-action = ~, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{4.5em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{chapter}{AB} {pre-v-action = \DelayEvaluation{\endgraf\addvspace{1.5ex plus 1pt}}, title-format = #1\IfNoValueF{#2}{\comma\space\textit{#2}}, number-format = #1.\hfil, pnum-format = \hfil#1, leaders-action = ., leaders-sep = \DelayEvaluation{0.5em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{2.5em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{section}{AB} {object-decls = \small, title-format = #1, number-format = #1.\hfil, pnum-format = \hfil#1, leaders-action = ., leaders-sep = \DelayEvaluation{0.5em}, number-width = \DelayEvaluation{1em}} \begin{document} \ABtableofcontents \ABtableofcontents[3] \stop === test.toc === \contentsobject {1}{1}{part}{A}{Model Theory}{\NoValue}{1} \contentsobject {2}{2}{chapter}{\NoValue}{Guide to Part A}{\NoValue}{3} \contentsobject {3}{2}{chapter}{A.1}{An introduction to first-order logic}{Jon Barwise}{5} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{1}{Foreword}{\NoValue}{6} \contentsobject {5}{3}{section}{2}{How to tell if you are in the realm of first-order logic}{\NoValue}{6} \contentsobject {6}{3}{section}{3}{The formalisation of first-order logic}{\NoValue}{17} \contentsobject {7}{3}{section}{4}{The Completeness Theorem}{\NoValue}{22} \contentsobject {8}{3}{section}{5}{Beyond first-order logic}{\NoValue}{41} \contentsobject {9}{3}{section}{\NoValue}{References}{\NoValue}{45} \contentsobject {10}{2}{chapter}{A.2}{Fundamentals of model theory}{H.\ Jerome Keisler}{47} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{1}{Introduction}{\NoValue}{48} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{2}{Theories}{\NoValue}{49} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{3}{Digrams and compactness}{\NoValue}{57} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{4}{L\"owenheim-Skolem theorems}{\NoValue}{63} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{5}{Recursively saturated models}{\NoValue}{69} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{6}{Large and small models}{\NoValue}{73} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{7}{Stable theories}{\NoValue}{82} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{8}{Model-theoretic forcing}{\NoValue}{89} \contentsobject {4}{3}{section}{9}{Infinite formulas and extra quantifiers}{\NoValue}{95} \contentsobject {9}{3}{section}{\NoValue}{References}{\NoValue}{101} \contentsobject {11}{2}{chapter}{A.3}{Ultraproducts for algebraists}{Paul C.\ Eklof}{105} \contentsobject {12}{1}{part}{B}{Set Theory}{\NoValue}{315} \contentsobject {13}{2}{chapter}{\NoValue}{Guide to Part B}{\NoValue}{317} \contentsobject {14}{2}{chapter}{B.1}{Axioms of set theory}{J.\ R.\ Schoenfield}{321} 19-Nov-1999 11:21:08-GMT,4803;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA26499 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 04:21:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA01169; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:58:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA23304; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:57:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445534 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:57:37 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23289 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:57:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from lumiere.idris.fr (lumiere.idris.fr [130.84.8.14]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA01018 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:57:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from murnau.idris.fr (murnau.idris.fr [130.84.8.20]) by lumiere.idris.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08472 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:57:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (from gaulle@localhost) by murnau.idris.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA00355; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:57:40 +0100 Message-ID: <199911191057.LAA00355@murnau.idris.fr> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:57:40 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Bernard GAULLE Subject: Re: mltex (was: encodings pair, babel 3.7 beta release) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L >>>>> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:27:12 +0100, "Denis B. Roegel" said: > DR> To some extent the same goes with encodings, both input and output. > DR> Given the features of TeX, the choice of the output encoding > DR> is relevant for hyphenation, > > hum, i guess you wanted to say: hyphenation is relevant of the font in use. DR> No, I meant what I wrote. well that wording is inappropriate. We should say: hyphenation depends of the font in use. I wrote: > no, any TeX using mltex option is independent of encodings. You can > use CM, EC, Times, ... what you want with any related encoding. > It would be so easy if all formats around the world were done > with the mltex option. It's free, standard (as an option can be) and > without any danger. But life is different ;=) DR> I meant "the brand of TeX you are using is *usually* not DR> independent of the (font) encoding you use." it should. Only few TeX engines don't accept all font encodings, which ones? DR> Who uses mltex? DR> Some people, but not everybody. so you should come back to Word: everybody use it... In other words i prefer to have plus than minus, but everybody is free to use what he wants. DR> Besides, I haven't followed the latest developments of MlTeX, DR> but it used to be the case that fonts had to have a certain DR> number of free slots for the "fictitious characters" MlTeX DR> creates, in case these \charsubdef is used. no, they are not "reserved" but "used" e.g. any new glyph defined by \charsubdef is associated to a slot in the font, as any other glyph... DR> Is this no longer true? If it is still true, it means DR> that some fonts cannot be used in MlTeX and at the same time DR> remapping/virtualization to occur. no, at one time one use 1 input encoding, 1 output encoding and 1 font. Input encoding let TeX know which glyph is targeted. Output encoding let TeX associate a slot in the font which is related to the tageted glyph. When using MlTeX option you only say to TeX to pick up 2 slots of the font to produce the glyph inside the dvi (and let on the side the original font slot). So, encodings should never differ and the only scholar-case for which a pb could occur is when the 2 basic slots (in case of e-acute, the "e" and the "acute" slots) are different in the fonts in use. In nearly 14 years i use MlTeX i never fell on this pb, but you certainly did... DR> I think some day soon, we will have format generation on demand, like we have DR> font generation on demand, so that this will no longer be an issue. DR> I actually wonder why this has not yet been done. why not... --bg 19-Nov-1999 11:51:29-GMT,8194;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA27024 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 04:51:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA08551; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:44:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA27106; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:43:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445581 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:43:33 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27091 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:43:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA08484 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:43:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from bar.loria.fr (bar.loria.fr [152.81.2.13]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id MAA06959; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:43:45 +0100 (MET) Received: (from roegel@localhost) by bar.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3-client/JCG) id MAA15267; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:43:45 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <199911191143.MAA15267@bar.loria.fr> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:43:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "Denis B. Roegel" Subject: Re: mltex (was: encodings pair, babel 3.7 beta release) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911191057.LAA00355@murnau.idris.fr> from "Bernard GAULLE" at Nov 19, 99 11:57:40 am `Bernard GAULLE' wrote > > >>>>> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:27:12 +0100, "Denis B. Roegel" said: > > DR> To some extent the same goes with encodings, both input and output. > > DR> Given the features of TeX, the choice of the output encoding > > DR> is relevant for hyphenation, > > > > hum, i guess you wanted to say: hyphenation is relevant of the font in use. > DR> No, I meant what I wrote. > > well that wording is inappropriate. We should say: hyphenation depends > of the font in use. I maintain my wording. > > I wrote: > > no, any TeX using mltex option is independent of encodings. You can > > use CM, EC, Times, ... what you want with any related encoding. > > It would be so easy if all formats around the world were done > > with the mltex option. It's free, standard (as an option can be) and > > without any danger. But life is different ;=) > DR> I meant "the brand of TeX you are using is *usually* not > DR> independent of the (font) encoding you use." > > it should. Only few TeX engines don't accept all font encodings, > which ones? It is not what I meant. I meant that there is usually a relationship between the brand of TeX one uses and the font encoding one uses (in a given language context). I never said that most TeX brands do not accept all font encodings. Of course, there is again a problem of definition. What exactly is a brand of TeX? I think of a brand of TeX as what you get when you start creating the format. For me, tex and tex -mltex are two different brands. Even with web2c7, I am convinced most people do not use an mltex format. It doesn't mean they will not use it in the future, I just think that currently it is not the case. If it were the case, it would not have been necessary to write a paper on that subject in the "Cahiers GUTenberg." > DR> Who uses mltex? > DR> Some people, but not everybody. > > so you should come back to Word: everybody use it... > In other words i prefer to have plus than minus, but everybody > is free to use what he wants. The problem is that what seems to be a plus to you has been at times a minus for others. The reason for this is very simple: it is a matter of support. Too few people use MlTeX, so too few people can help you when you have a problem. Of course, I think things have changed, in that MlTeX is now more solid than it used to be, but a few years ago, I switched from MlTeX to TeX exactly because I had a terribly hard time getting help for my problem. And I got no help from GUTenberg who promoted MlTeX. I noticed that some fonts had been kludged in order to circumvent a bug in MlTeX (which has been corrected since). The knowledgeable people from the TeX community were not knowledgeable in MlTeX (except for Bernd Raichle, of course). The comparison with MS Word is not appropriate, because one of the reasons I would not use MS Word now is the same reason I have not been using MlTeX in the past: lack of *appropriate* support. (There may be support for MS Word, but not appropriate for me.) > > DR> Besides, I haven't followed the latest developments of MlTeX, > DR> but it used to be the case that fonts had to have a certain > DR> number of free slots for the "fictitious characters" MlTeX > DR> creates, in case these \charsubdef is used. > > no, they are not "reserved" but "used" e.g. any new glyph defined > by \charsubdef is associated to a slot in the font, as any other > glyph... Did I say "reserved" ? There used to be a constraint that you have to use empty slots. I do not know the current state of things. I know only that one constraint has been lifted, and this was a constraint that caused me the aforementionned trouble, namely that only a continuous tail segment of free slots could be used. Since some PostScript fonts had used a slot in the middle of emptyness, this spoiled a whole range of empty slots and crippled MlTeX at some point. But this problem has been solved. Question: is there an example where MlTeX is used for remapping 8 bit fonts into (differently encoded) 8 bit fonts? (Currently, I know for instance that MlTeX can remap 7 bit OT1 fonts into various 8 bits encodings, but can it do 8 -> 8 ?) If not, then MlTeX still has its limitations with free slots, and not every font encoding can be used with it (and remapped). > DR> Is this no longer true? If it is still true, it means > DR> that some fonts cannot be used in MlTeX and at the same time > DR> remapping/virtualization to occur. > > no, at one time one use 1 input encoding, 1 output encoding and 1 font. > Input encoding let TeX know which glyph is targeted. > Output encoding let TeX associate a slot in the font which is related > to the tageted glyph. > When using MlTeX option you only say to TeX to pick up 2 slots of the font to > produce the glyph inside the dvi (and let on the side the original font slot). > So, encodings should never differ and the only scholar-case for which > a pb could occur is when the 2 basic slots (in case of e-acute, the "e" > and the "acute" slots) are different in the fonts in use. In nearly 14 years > i use MlTeX i never fell on this pb, but you certainly did... No, I didn't fall on this problem, but the problem I had was both related to the bugs in MlTeX and to kludged PostScript fonts. The fonts had been modified to work with the bugs of MlTeX. And at some point, I used *correct* fonts, and then everything broke. Of course, some of this happened when I started using LaTeX2e (I guess I must have been the first person in France to download LaTeX2e in December 1993), hence I was in a non-GUTenberg supported configuration. It took me months to figure out what was wrong. Denis Roegel 19-Nov-1999 12:06:33-GMT,3258;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA27253 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 05:06:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA11257; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:04:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA28670; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:03:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445622 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:03:57 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28663 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:03:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA11234 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:04:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from MAURITIUS (p21.tc9.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.77.22]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8) with ESMTP id HAA06209 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 07:04:13 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: <4.2.2.19991119065942.02a71140@tiac.net> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 07:03:12 -0500 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Y&Y Help Line Subject: Re: mltex (was: encodings pair, babel 3.7 beta release) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199911191057.LAA00355@murnau.idris.fr> At 11:57 AM 11/19/1999 +0100, you wrote: >I wrote: > > no, any TeX using mltex option is independent of encodings. You can > > use CM, EC, Times, ... what you want with any related encoding. > > It would be so easy if all formats around the world were done > > with the mltex option. It's free, standard (as an option can be) and > > without any danger. But life is different ;=) >DR> I meant "the brand of TeX you are using is *usually* not >DR> independent of the (font) encoding you use." > >it should. Only few TeX engines don't accept all font encodings, >which ones? Windows TeX implementations (other than Y&Y TeX) are limited to permutations of Windows ANSI encoding for on screen and non-PS printing. Macintosh TeX implementations are limited to permutations of Macintosh standard encoding for on screen and non-PS printing. (This is for text fonts, non-text fonts like CM have their own hard-wired encoding and are not reencoded). -- Berthold K.P. Horn bkph@YandY.com 23-Nov-1999 16:18:10-GMT,2669;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28372 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:18:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA10956; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:17:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA28865; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:15:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445914 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:15:42 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28856 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:15:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.31]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA10847 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:16:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21403 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:16:03 GMT Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05239 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:15:55 GMT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199911231615.QAA05239@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:15:55 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: James Kilfiger Subject: Re: xfootnote, Document commands. To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <071c107f@corona.oche.de> from Achim Blumensath at "Nov 18, 99 09:24:51 pm" Suppose someone wanted to create a class with an evironment syntax for footnotes, like \begin{note} Text of note \end{note}. How should such a syntax be specified? James 23-Nov-1999 18:44:54-GMT,2959;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02855 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:44:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA04683; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:43:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA20453; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:43:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446030 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:43:03 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20444 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:43:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA04649 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:43:27 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 28997 invoked from network); 23 Nov 1999 19:43:25 +0100 Received: from du139-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.139?) (195.100.226.139) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 23 Nov 1999 19:43:25 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:24:24 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: xparse package: A general parser for LaTeX document commands. To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199909101155.MAA21698@nag.co.uk> Some input on the xparse package: - It seems me that the o and O{...} commands should be unified, if possible. The syntax could perhaps instead be o[...]; if the optional argument is present, it is treated as O{...}. - If using the ideas of objects I presented before in this list, then the s commands would return either of the values \Boolean/true or \Boolean/false, that is ``true'' or ``false'' within the object ``Boolean''. Its syntax could be generalized to be s[_x_], where _x_ is symbol other than *. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 24-Nov-1999 9:54:02-GMT,2990;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA23261 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 02:54:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA25397; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:42:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA02423; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:40:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445333 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:40:17 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02365 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:40:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from knatte.tninet.se (knatte.tninet.se [195.100.94.10]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA25154 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:40:22 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 29071 invoked from network); 24 Nov 1999 10:40:20 +0100 Received: from du147-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.147?) (195.100.226.147) by knatte.tninet.se with SMTP; 24 Nov 1999 10:40:20 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:39:22 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: xparse package To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L A more general variation of the argument specificator o[\x] could be that if the argument is not present, then the command \x is executed. Then \x should be a command declared with \DeclareDocumentCommand, but the argument specificator should have the corresponding o[\x] removed. So, for example, in \DeclareDocumentCommand \Initial {o[\InitialNoLeading]mo[\InitialNoTrailing]} { \MakeInitial {#1}{#2}{#3} } one should also have the declarations \DeclareDocumentCommand \InitialNoLeading {mo} \DeclareDocumentCommand \InitialNoTrailing {om} where the ``o'' argument specificators can have new optional argument if so needed. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 24-Nov-1999 11:50:43-GMT,5468;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA25306 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:50:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA19649; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:49:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA27902; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:49:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445515 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:49:08 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27873 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:49:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp01.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA19577 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:49:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.71.184] ([195.5.71.184]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Nov 4 1999 17:02:49) with SMTP id FLPA5600.J4J for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:48:42 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199911241149.MAA19577@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:48:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Re: xcontents To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L > > It so happens that I'm working in a new release of a package for > > formatting of toc entries which already provides such a kind of > > indexes in the currently available version. However, adapting > >may i (we have a look) at the 2e version of this package? i don't mind it >being in a non-distributable/working state as long as the underlying ideas >can be looked at without too much trouble > >nevertheless i'm eager to see you trying to produce a template or two for it >since only this way we can see where the template concept needs corrections Perhaps the main difference is that both the label and the page are not automatically placed by the corresponding command but they should be given explicitly. I finally became conviced that something like ... { (\textit{\theconstentspage})} ... was easier to understand and modify than two arguments with the pre- and postcode: ... { (\begingroup\itshape} ... {\endgroup)} ... or a command for formatting the page (with an implicit argument): \def\tocpagefmt#1{ (\textit{#1})} ... {\tocpagefmt} ... but no doubt there are other views on that. template provides a more readable version of the latter: number-format = \ (\textit{#1}), but my implementation will follow the first procedure for comparison purposes. Another difference is how the text is shaped: the text and leaders are in a rectangular block, with hanging label and page (provided the usual format is used). The original package provides a single command which only performs code related to how entries are placed in the toc, leaving the format of the entry itself to some hooks where you may use a few extra commands with the page number, the label, the leaders, paragraph format, etc. Of course, this approach has some disavantages, for example the necessity of defining *all* of parameters when redefining a toc entry; but, as I say in the documentation, it is not intended to just readjust the current format by a casual user. Now, here templates can help, because some few templates can provide the basic formats (sharing the same code) and creating new templates could be easier. However implementing new packages could be more complex, because a level of evaluation is added. The following trivial example illustrates what I mean. The usual way is: \def\defineit#1{% \def\it{#1}} The template way is (very, very simplified) \def\defineit#1{% \def\@it{#1} \def\it{\@it}} This extra level has many implications, because we cannot define \it literally (ie, exactly as given by the argument) and protection becomes a critical point: \def\defineit{% \def\@it{#1} \protected@xdef\it{\@it}} Temporary variables also become our daily bread. Will this extra level of complexity pays? How will it affect the memory usage? > > it to the suggested templates is turning out to be more difficult > > as I expected because most of things are handled in a quite > > different way. The same applies to partial tocs. However, > >can you try to explain why or how partial tocs are a problem or handled quite >differently in your approach? (not that they are yet really handled in >xcontents at all Mmmm... Perhaps the main difference is that xcontents doesn't handle them at all! :-) More thoughs when I send the package (probably next week). \bye Javier Bezos 24-Nov-1999 16:07:44-GMT,5323;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00570 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 09:07:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08941; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:06:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA25660; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:05:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445831 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:05:40 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25644 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:05:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from knatte.tninet.se (knatte.tninet.se [195.100.94.10]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA08871 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:05:59 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 13787 invoked from network); 24 Nov 1999 17:05:56 +0100 Received: from du137-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.137?) (195.100.226.137) by knatte.tninet.se with SMTP; 24 Nov 1999 17:05:56 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:05:01 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Declare vs define, objects To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L On the http://www.latex-project.org/talks/tug99.pdf document: LaTeX2e* uses commands such as \DeclareDocumentEnvironment, with the word ``declare''. In C/C++ and other computer languages one distinguishes between a declaration and a definition. Say if I write a declaration int x; then it means that the variable x is of type ``int''. A definition looks like int x = 5; which means that the variable x will be assigned the value 5. Thus, declarations do not have any physical impact on the binary code created, (and can occur several times) whereas definition do have a physical impact on the binary code created (and can only occur once). So LaTeX* departs from this common computer language lingo. Declarations may not have an exact TeX/LaTeX interpreation, but the could be wise reserving the word for some later use. So I think that word ``define'' or ''new'' should be used in these cases. It is also possible to apply object thinking on this: There is an object called ``document'' with subobjects ``command'' and ``environment'', both with subobjects ``new''. Then names of the two ``new'' commands thus becomes document/command/new document/environment/new The way I thought on it when I worked on these ideas is that these are the names that are executed, but normally hidden away by some syntax from the user. The use of the slashes ``/'' in these names are thus just some internal mechanism brought into use in order to avoid name classes while on the same time sorting out different object structures. The point is also that one can use different local syntaxes in order to call these object commands. So for example, in one locality, one may use the old environment commands \begin{_x_} ... \end{_x_} where _x_ is a variable, but in another, newer locality one might use say <_x_| ... |_x_> In both cases the commands document/environment/_x_/begin ... document/environment/_x_/end would be executed. (And my work on environments with hooks showed that the \begingroup \endgroup commands should be put into the begin and end statements of the environment, and not into the environment definition itself, as is the case now in LaTeX.) Such uses could be guided say by that the input code has some kind of special syntax. In the case of the new's above, the user commands could be \new{document}{command} \new{document}{environment} One way to execute this would be that first the command \new picks up an argument {document} and makes sure \document/new is executed. Then the definition of the command named ``document/new'' takes an argument {command} or {environment} and then executes respectively \document/command/new \document/environment/new which each has its own localized definitions. Above, I do not take into account issues such as compilation time and long names and so on, but I merely describe the logical structure of objects that I arrived at. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 25-Nov-1999 15:52:22-GMT,6489;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00269 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:52:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA02086; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:47:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00841; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:46:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445679 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:46:20 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00832 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:46:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from knatte.tninet.se (knatte.tninet.se [195.100.94.10]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA01925 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:46:44 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 1322 invoked from network); 25 Nov 1999 16:46:36 +0100 Received: from du137-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.137?) (195.100.226.137) by knatte.tninet.se with SMTP; 25 Nov 1999 16:46:36 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:45:47 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Templates and objects To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Here is some ideas on how to use objects to describe the templates in the http://www.latex-project.org/talks/tug99.pdf document: First, the idea of a template and its instantiation seems to be the quite similar to that of a class, its derived class, and an instantiation in C++, that is, if one disregards the dynamic aspect of in C++. (In C++, derived classes are used to construct polymorphic data types, or variables that change the data type they hold during runtime.) So the LaTeX template corresponds to a C++ abstract class, the name to a derived class, and the instantiation to an instantiation of this class. Roughly speaking that is, there is no point in pronging into the details here. This is not so strange, because much of the C++ additions originally comes from uses with macros. Perhaps one use this idea to come up with some suitable generalization. However, it is possible to apply object thinking to templates, too. Then it seems me that there is an object named ``template'' which has its own special definitions of ``new'' and ``use''. These commands have the internal names template/new template/use The ``use'' syntax in the example on page 30 \UseTemplate{initial}{std}{...} might instead be \use{template}{initial}{std}{...} The command \use would pick up one argument {template} and execute the command name template/use, which then would make sure the other arguments are executed correctly as templates. The syntax in the example on page 33 \DeclareInstance{initial}{A}{std} could instead be \new{template}{instance}{initial}{std}{A} And \UseInstance{initial}{A}{``}{A}{good initial} would become \use{template}{instance}{initial}{A}{``}{A}{good initial} And on page 47: \DeclareTemplateType{}{} \DeclareTemplate{}{}{}{...}{...} would instead be \new{template}{type}{}{} \new{template}{}{}{}{...}{...} A few remarks: First, why should one accept such a long construction such as \new{template}{instance}{initial}{std}{} The thing is though that if we later decide that the ``template'' object is obsolete and should be replaced by a ``class'' object, then it is easy to change to \new{class}{instance}{initial}{std}{} and there will be no name clashes in the definition mechanism. Such long combinations does not exclude that users in their manuscripts make use of some kind of local, simplified syntax. This could then for example be to use the simplified \new{instance}{initial}{std}{} because it is easy to define an ``instance'' object which calls the correct ``template'' subobject. Another problem, rather technical in nature, is that if one should use both \new{template}{type}{}{} \new{template}{}{}{}{...}{...} side by side, one may cause the command template/new to do some unwanted parsing, as ``new'' would both these two would expand these two to \template/new{type}{}{} \template/new{}{}{}{...}{...} However, it is relatively easy to work around this problem by instead calling \new{template/type}{}{} \new{template}{}{}{}{...}{...} In the first case, one would call \template/type/new{}{} and in the second case one would call \template/new{}{}{}{...}{...} (One idea that comes to my mind when I write this is to use hyphens ``-'' instead of slashes ``/'' for subobjects. Then one would instead call \new{template-type}{}{} But it might be difficult for computer oriented people to think of this as subobjects.) So there are no name clashes here. (Note that there will be some restrictions, such as that one cannot define a template type named ``new'', as this would cause the command named template/type/new to be defined.) So this was some inputs on how to objectify the templates. I think that templates are very interesting in connection with objects, because they have a very different type of ``new'' operator, and one can see here how the object mechanism can easily sort this out. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 26-Nov-1999 11:01:20-GMT,5221;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA20781 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 04:01:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA03645; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:00:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA25798; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:59:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445403 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:59:11 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25785 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:59:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from knatte.tninet.se (knatte.tninet.se [195.100.94.10]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA03484 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:59:32 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 3041 invoked from network); 26 Nov 1999 11:59:25 +0100 Received: from du134-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.134?) (195.100.226.134) by knatte.tninet.se with SMTP; 26 Nov 1999 11:59:25 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:58:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Templates and objects -- modules To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L One might use the idea of modules. I will try to describe it in connection with the templates. One reason to use a module is to collect names of a certain type or characteristic into a common namespace, while on the same time providing orthogonality between namespaces. It means that the user can pick a combination of fragments from different modules, without that the names of the different modules clash. The templates in the http://www.latex-project.org/talks/tug99.pdf document seems to provide some such orthogonality (I am not sure yet on what the exact semantics is), but I will anyhow try to describe the idea of modules in this context. On p 26-27, there are the following examples: Template example (1) Type: hyphenation Args: none Semantics: Sets up hyphenation mechanism Name: TeX Keys: uchyph hyphenpenalty exhyphenpenalty ... Name: std Keys: hyphen-disable-boolean hyphen-uppercase-boolean ... Template example (2) Type: initial Args: 1,3 (\NoValue or string) 2 (string) Semantics: Sets up an initial character at start of paragraph followed by a number of characters formatted in a special font. Handles quotes to the left of the initial if any. Name: std Keys: initial-font initial-format text-font parshape-list v-adjust h-adjust ... Now note that the templates of type ``hyphenation'' and ``initial'' both have the name ``std''. With object thinking, the two objects ``hyphenation'' and ``initial'' both have the subobject std, somehow these objects are created via the template mechanism, and should thus have the object names hyphenation/std initial/std But it seems reasonable to collect together all these standard ``std'' commands in a specially module named ``std''. Thus one gets a global object named ``std'' with the subobjects std/hyphenation std/initial Similarly, the TeX module might have the names TeX/hyphenation TeX/initial One can think of various ways on how the ``std'' module (or object) is used to instantiate the commands hyphenation/std and initial/std that finally are used. Note however that it is possible to use the differences between x/y and y/x to place the commands in a suitable object. Also note that if one later wants to mix features from the ``std'' and the ``TeX'' module, that is now possible. So say that one prefers to use the ``std'' module, but some math spacing from the ``TeX'' module is preferred, then in principle, from the point of view of avoiding name clashes, it is possible to do that. A document can even first load the two modules, and then locally choose from the features loaded. (There are some other technical issues, such as if TeX itself will break by this amass of names or how to provide a mechanism to conveniently choose use from the different modules, but my intent is not to discuss that here.) Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 27-Nov-1999 11:22:23-GMT,9355;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA16400 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 04:22:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA21773; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:17:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24417; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:15:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445377 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:15:07 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24410 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:15:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA21681 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:15:34 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 26477 invoked from network); 27 Nov 1999 12:15:30 +0100 Received: from du138-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.138?) (195.100.226.138) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 27 Nov 1999 12:15:30 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:15:27 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Classes -- a generalization of templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Here is a possible generalization of the templates in the http://www.latex-project.org/talks/tug99.pdf document to classes. The point with the class dogma is that one has data with certain structure that one wants to describe, and that it helps that description (as it lessens programming errors, diminishes the need for repetitive low-level programming, etc). Classes, as used in the C++ paradigm, is a collection of data and functions (also called methods). A derived class D of a class C has the same data and methods as that of C, but one is allowed to add data and new method, and also to override the methods in C by supplying a new definition. There is also the notion of an abstract class, sometimes also called abstract data type (ADT), or interface. This is merely a class which cannot be instantiated. In C++ one creates such an abstract class by indicating that at least one method should not have a definition. The only way to produce runtime code via such a class is to derive a non-abstract class, and then instantiate it. (I skip the C++ polymorphic stuff here, as it seems to have no analog in TeX.) It seems me that the above ideas can be used in TeX. I do not however claim that LaTeX should have it -- I leave it to THEM (the LaTeX gurus) to decide. On page 46 in the document mentioned above, we have the following syntax \DeclareTemplateType{}{} \DeclareTemplate{}{}{}{ = , = , ... } { \DoParameterAssignments } When translating to classes, it seems me that ``templates'' is the same as a root class (one which is not derived from another class), and the LaTeX ``name'' is a derived class. Then the number arguments an instantiation of a class should have is the sum of the arguments indicated in the class definitions of the class itself and the classes it is derived from. A syntax might look like \new{class}{}{}{ = , = , ... } { \DoParameterAssignments } \new{derived-class}{}{}{}{ = , = , ... } [ \DoParameterAssignments ] The meaning of the optional argument in the ``derived-class'' definition is that if it is present, it overrides the definition of the derived class, otherwise the definition of the class it is derived from is used. The parameter part { = , = , ... } is just added to the parameter part of the class it is derived from. The \DoParameterAssignments command just executes them in sequence. One can think of creating abstract classes by merely using a command \AbstractClass command which issues an error in an instantiation unless overridden by a derived class. Then the relation with templates is roughly like this: Instead of \DeclareTemplateType{}{} one might write \new{class}{}{...}{\AbstractClass} This ensures that the class cannot be instantiated, but one can still add parameter in the {...} clause. One variation might be that one writes \new{class}{}{ = \AbstractClass, ... }{...} but one then will have to figure out how to override this in a derived class. Anyway, we see from [loc cit] that the intended LaTeX template types should have a semantics. For example, on p 43, the list type should set up a list environment. By playing around with these ideas, one might be able to get a list abstract class which is doing that setup in actual code which then needs not be repeated in derived classes. By analyzing such cases, one might thus be able to find a good way to introduce abstract classes in LaTeX. The use of a class derivation and instantiation would then in the case of the ``list'' example above be something like \new{class}{list}{3}{...}{...} % with the \AbstractClass command somewhere \new{derived-class}{enumerate}{0} % 0 here, as no more arguments are used. {...}{...} The instantiations would be somewhat different than LaTeX templates if traditional class dogma should be used. So instead of LaTeX \UseInstance{list}{enumerate} \NoValue \NoValue \BooleanFalse} as on p 45, one would write \use{enumerate} \NoValue \NoValue \BooleanFalse With the ideas of objects I posted here, this is not so difficult to implement, as \new{derived-class}{enumerate} will create an ``enumerate'' object which will have a command named ``enumerate/use''. The latter will in its turn be invoked by the command \use{enumerate}. So here is a difference between LaTeX templates and classes: With classes, once one has made a derivation ``enumerate'' from ``list'', it is a new independent entity which do not any longer carry its origin (that is, ``list'') explicitly with it when called. Instead, if the class it is derived from (or base class) is needed, one should add a variable \BaseClass which every class has. It is easier to see the connection between classes and modules than between LaTeX templates and modules: Suppose we have modules ``TeX'' and ``std'' which both have their internal ``enumerate'' classes. The object names should then be TeX/enumerate std/enumerate The normal way to call these would be to write \use{TeX}{enumerate} \use{std}{enumerate} or perhaps \use{TeX/enumerate} \use{std/enumerate} But suppose we agree on using the ``TeX'' module only, then one might have a command \use{module}{TeX} or perhaps \use{TeX} which redefines \use to expand to \use/TeX, so that \use{enumerate} expands to \use/TeX{enumerate} (but if is unwise to redefine \use, one might use something else, say \Use, instead). Suppose now that one has loaded the TeX module, that it does not have the ``enumerate'' class, and that we want to take that only form std. One way would be to use the long name explicitly \use{std}{enumerate} Because the ``TeX'' and ``std'' modules have different namespaces, there is no problem in loading them both. But if one should shorten this name, then one could have command something like \import{std}{enumerate} and henceforth be able to write \use{enumerate} instead of the long command. Again, it is not so difficult to do that with the object model I presented, because \import{std}{enumerate} needs only to define a command \enumerate/use which expands to \std/enumerate/use (besides from checking if the name ``enumerate/use'' is in use). OK. This was an input. I leave it to THEM and YOU to decide if it is useful for LaTeX in some form or another. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 27-Nov-1999 14:27:19-GMT,5496;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19256 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 07:27:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05929; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:26:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA09947; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:25:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445432 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:25:21 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09925 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:25:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA05903 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:25:48 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 17199 invoked from network); 27 Nov 1999 15:25:41 +0100 Received: from du140-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.140?) (195.100.226.140) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 27 Nov 1999 15:25:41 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:24:08 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: Classes -- a generalization of templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Some additions to my last post: I forgot to indicate the object syntax for instantiations. So if one has created the derived-class ``enumerate'', which would normally be directly used as \use{enumerate} \NoValue \NoValue \BooleanFalse but instead want to create an instance ``plain-enumerate'' which is later used, then a syntax could be \new{enumerate}{plain-enumerate} which would later be used as \use{plain-enumerate} This is not so difficult to implement, because when the enumerate command is created by \new{derived-class}{enumerate} \NoValue \NoValue \BooleanFalse one makes sure to create a command \enumerate/new which is called by \new{enumerate}. This illustrates the object principle that it is always the object which knows what it can do. Users of the object thus only need to worry about the interface of the object, and not about global commands by which it should be manipulated with from the outside. One can also note that there is a question of where to put the arguments in instantiations. We could have decided for a mechanism that when we derive ``enumerate'' from the ``list'' class, only say the two first arguments should have been used, the last reserved for the instantiation. The syntax would thus be (say) \new{class}{list}{3}... \new{derived-class}{enumerate}{0} \NoValue \NoValue \new{enumerate}{plain-enumerate} \BooleanFalse Such constructions are possible in C++, and are convenient. (It leave it to the reader to figure out the details of a suitable syntax.) One can also introduce typing of objects if it is considered sufficiently important or useful. The principle I see underneath it is that an object should normally have as type its creator. So the type of ``plain-enumerate'' above is ``enumerate'', and the type of ``enumerate'' is ``class'' or ``derived-class''. One then has a command \type{enumerate} % class \type{plain-enumerate} % enumerate or if one should bother to create a ``type'' object \use{type}{enumerate} % class \use{type}{plain-enumerate} % enumerate Again, I do not know if typing is useful in LaTeX, I only note that it seems possible to add such a feature. In C++, typing becomes necessary when handling dynamic information. So if it becomes common in LaTeX with macros that do a selection based on type, then it might prove useful with typing. Then a simple version of the \type command would be to add a type command to the objects which expands to its creator. So for example \type{plain-enumerate} would expand to plain-enumerate/type which in its turn would expand to ``enumerate''. Note however that it is not necessary to add typing to all objects with this method: Only those that need it. So the behavior of objects is pretty local; they need not be more complicated than is useful. I can also note that the command names do not become very long with the approach above, because they lengthen only when one explicitly calls for the creation of a subobject (like when creating a module or something). So it is still a pretty flat structure. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 27-Nov-1999 22:22:26-GMT,6647;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27504 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:22:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA13077; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:21:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA05116; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:20:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445745 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:20:33 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05102 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:20:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from downtown.oche.de (downtown.oche.de [194.94.253.3]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA13050 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:21:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from corona.oche.de (uucp@localhost) by downtown.oche.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id XAA15267 for urz.uni-heidelberg.de!latex-l; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:20:01 +0100 Received: by corona.oche.de (wUUCP 1.10) id <1ja9@corona.oche.de>; Sat, 27 Nov 99 21:19:21 CET X-Mailer: AmiGate 1.6 (13.11.95) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 21:12:14 CET Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Achim Blumensath Subject: theorem templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hello, I've converted the amsthm style to the template system. The whole process was extremely painless (except for reading the AMS code), and the resulting code is much more readable than the original. Achim ________________________________________________________________________ _ | \_____/ | // Achim Blumensath | \ _ \O/ \___/\ | // blume@corona.oche.de |-< /_\ =o= \ /\ \| \X/ (p^2 - m^2)\psi = 0 |_/ \_ /"\ o----| ____________________________________________________________________\___| === xthm.sty === \RequirePackage{xparse} \RequirePackage{template} \IgnoreWhiteSpace \DeclareTemplateType{theoremstyle}{3} \newdimen\TSpre@skip \newdimen\TSpost@skip \newdimen\TShead@indent \DeclareTemplate{theoremstyle}{AB}{3} { pre-skip =l [\DelayEvaluation{\topsep}] \TSpre@skip, post-skip =l [\DelayEvaluation{\topsep}] \TSpost@skip, body-style =f0 [\itshape] \TSbody@style, head-style =f0 [\bfseries] \TShead@style, note-style =f0 [\normalfont] \TSnote@style, head-punct =f0 [.] \TShead@punct, head-format =f3 [\IfNoValueF{#1}{#1\space} \IfNoValueF{#2}{#2} \IfNoValueF{#3}{\space{\TSnote@style(#3)}}] \TShead@format, head-indent =l [0pt] \TShead@indent, post-head-action =f0 [] \TSpost@head@action } { \DoParameterAssignments \normalfont \trivlist \edef\@restorelabelsep{\labelsep\the\labelsep} \labelsep.5em\relax \let\thmheadnl\relax \@topsep\TSpre@skip \@topsepadd\TSpost@skip \IfNoValueF{#1} {\refstepcounter{#1}} \item[ \normalfont \hskip\labelsep \TShead@style \hskip\TShead@indent \IfNoValueTF{#1} {\TShead@format{#1}{#2}{#3}} {\TShead@format{\csname the#1\endcsname}{#2}{#3}} \TShead@punct] \@restorelabelsep \TSpost@head@action \TSbody@style \ignorespaces } \DeclareInstance{theoremstyle}{plain}{AB}{} \DeclareInstance{theoremstyle}{definition}{AB} { body-style = \normalfont } \DeclareInstance{theoremstyle}{remark}{AB} { pre-skip = \DelayEvaluation{0.5\topsep}, post-skip = \DelayEvaluation{0.5\topsep}, body-style = \normalfont, head-style = \itshape } \def\@endtheorem{\endtrivlist\@endpefalse } % arguments: numbered, style, name, share counter with, label, % counter relative to \DeclareDocumentCommand{\newtheorem}{smmomo} { \expandafter\@ifdefinable\csname #3\endcsname { \global\expandafter\let\csname end#3\endcsname\@endtheorem \IfBooleanTF{#1} { \expandafter\DeclareDocumentCommand\csname #3\endcsname{o} {\UseInstance{theoremstyle}{#2}{\NoValue}{#5}{##1}} } { \IfNoValueTF{#4} { \IfNoValueTF{#6} { \newcounter{#3} } { \newcounter{#3}[#6] \expandafter\xdef\csname the#3\endcsname{ \expandafter\noexpand\csname the#6\endcsname \@thmcountersep\@thmcounter{#3}} } \expandafter\DeclareDocumentCommand\csname #3\endcsname{o} {\UseInstance{theoremstyle}{#2}{#3}{#5}{##1}} } { \@ifundefined{c@#4} { \@nocounterr{#4} } { \expandafter\xdef\csname the#3\endcsname {\expandafter\noexpand\csname the#4\endcsname} \expandafter\DeclareDocumentCommand\csname #3\endcsname{o} {\UseInstance{theoremstyle}{#2}{#4}{#5}{##1}} } } } } } === test-xthm.tex === \documentclass{article} \usepackage{xthm} \newtheorem{plain}{Thm}{Theorem}[section] \newtheorem{plain}{Prop}[Thm]{Proposition} \newtheorem{plain}{Lem}[Thm]{Lemma} \newtheorem{plain}{Cor}[Thm]{Corollary} \newtheorem{definition}{Def}[Thm]{Definition} \newtheorem*{remark}{Rem}{Remark} \newtheorem*{remark}{Exam}{Example} \begin{document} \section{First Section} \begin{Def} \emph{My package} is the \textsf{xthm} package. \end{Def} \begin{Thm} My package works as advertised. \end{Thm} \begin{Cor}[Achim] It can be used. \end{Cor} \begin{Rem} This is good. \end{Rem} \section{Second Section} \begin{Def} \emph{My package} is the \textsf{xthm} package. \end{Def} \begin{Thm} My package works as advertised. \end{Thm} \begin{Cor}[Achim] It can be used. \end{Cor} \begin{Rem} This is good. \end{Rem} \stop 29-Nov-1999 22:03:06-GMT,3041;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22549 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:03:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11880; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:01:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA27781; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446474 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:22 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27757 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11800 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin378.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.78]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03360 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:00:48 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00291; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:01:50 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: Message-ID: <199911292201.XAA00291@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:01:50 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: theorem templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Achim Blumensath writes: > I've converted the amsthm style to the template system. The whole > process was extremely painless (except for reading the AMS code), > and the resulting code is much more readable than the original. nice work. sorry that i've gone silent will try to change that again, but just before the end of this bloddy year my company is requesting all of my time including weekend work and i don't find much energy to even turn on the computer for reading my mail --- this either changes on 1.1.2000 or else the world has gone to /dev/null anyway and typesetting isn't an issue frank 1-Dec-1999 22:23:45-GMT,3062;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00438 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:23:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA25336; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:22:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA14798; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:21:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446707 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:21:19 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14782 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:21:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from downtown.oche.de (downtown.oche.de [194.94.253.3]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA25210 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:21:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from corona.oche.de (uucp@localhost) by downtown.oche.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id XAA23115 for URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE!LATEX-L; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:20:01 +0100 Received: by corona.oche.de (wUUCP 1.10) id <1jd1@corona.oche.de>; Wed, 1 Dec 99 21:29:15 CET X-Mailer: AmiGate 1.6 (13.11.95) Message-ID: <223b6bc0@corona.oche.de> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:10:03 CET Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Achim Blumensath Subject: Re: theorem templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Frank Mittelback wrote: > Achim Blumensath writes: > > > I've converted the amsthm style to the template system. The whole > > process was extremely painless (except for reading the AMS code), > > and the resulting code is much more readable than the original. > > nice work. Of course, it contains an annoying bug: the numbers are printed _before_ the name. The correct code is: \IfNoValueTF{#1} {\TShead@format{#2}{#1}{#3}} {\TShead@format{#2}{\csname the#1\endcsname}{#3}} Achim ________________________________________________________________________ _ | \_____/ | // Achim Blumensath | \ _ \O/ \___/\ | // blume@corona.oche.de |-< /_\ =o= \ /\ \| \X/ (p^2 - m^2)\psi = 0 |_/ \_ /"\ o----| ____________________________________________________________________\___| 5-Dec-1999 22:28:30-GMT,4004;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27252 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:28:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11612; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:23:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA08176; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:22:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445777 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:22:18 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08165 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:22:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from downtown.oche.de (downtown.oche.de [194.94.253.3]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11494 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:22:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from corona.oche.de (uucp@localhost) by downtown.oche.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id XAA27752 for urz.uni-heidelberg.de!latex-l; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:20:00 +0100 Received: by corona.oche.de (wUUCP 1.10) id <1jft@corona.oche.de>; Sun, 5 Dec 99 21:16:29 CET X-Mailer: AmiGate 1.6 (13.11.95) Message-ID: <417f4014@corona.oche.de> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:23:54 CET Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Achim Blumensath Subject: Re: Classes -- a generalization of templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hans Aberg wrote: > Here is a possible generalization of the templates in the > http://www.latex-project.org/talks/tug99.pdf document to classes. The > point with the class dogma is that one has data with certain structure > that one wants to describe, and that it helps that description (as it > lessens programming errors, diminishes the need for repetitive low-level > programming, etc). Even if the template system reminds of object-oriented programming at first glace, it is something completely different. Templates are just commands which are parameterised; an instance provides the actual parameters for the command. It doesn't make sense to subclass a template. You have to write a completely new template if you want to add new parameters. I don't think that an object-oriented approach is appropriate for LaTeX. Objects are entities with an internal state capable of sending and responding to messages. Thus, they are active elements. A text document on the other hand is something static. It consists of text enriched by meta-data describing its layout. LaTeX translates this static description into some lowlevel format. Thus, basically LaTeX is a set of rules determining this translation, i.e., a set of commands to perform this translation. Therefore, IMHO a command-based system like templates is much more appropriate in this context. Some work with the new system has confirmed this impression. Achim ________________________________________________________________________ _ | \_____/ | // Achim Blumensath | \ _ \O/ \___/\ | // blume@corona.oche.de |-< /_\ =o= \ /\ \| \X/ (p^2 - m^2)\psi = 0 |_/ \_ /"\ o----| ____________________________________________________________________\___| 5-Dec-1999 23:11:54-GMT,3679;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28068 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:11:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15124; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:06:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA14117; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:06:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445211 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:06:23 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14103 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:06:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from knatte.tninet.se (knatte.tninet.se [195.100.94.10]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA14211 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:55:30 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 17678 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1999 23:55:39 +0100 Received: from du137-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.137?) (195.100.226.137) by knatte.tninet.se with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 23:55:39 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:54:46 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: Classes -- a generalization of templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <417f4014@corona.oche.de> At 12:23 +0000 1999/12/04, Achim Blumensath wrote: >I don't think that an object-oriented approach is appropriate for LaTeX. >Objects are entities with an internal state capable of sending and >responding to messages. Thus, they are active elements. There are two separate aspects of what is called OOP or object oriented programming, one that the objects are dynamic (as you say), and another that the objects constitute localized namespaces. OOP, which is (originally) just an empirical notion does not require that the two aspects be valid simultaneously. I think I pointed that the dynamic aspect does not appear to make sense in TeX. Therefore I concentrated on the static, namespace, aspect, which just as templates just requires macro expansions. But is not so easy to reject the idea that also the dynamic aspect of OOP might have something corresponding in TeX -- the LaTeX templates already have a notion of computing immediately or later. And selecting commands based on type of an object is surely possible in the object model I presented. Anyway, this is a question of transport of ideas, and not a transport of logical computer structures. Whatever happens in LaTeX will be on the terms of LaTeX and what is possible to do within the TeX program. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 7-Dec-1999 22:27:05-GMT,5273;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02644 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:27:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA17700; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:25:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA17649; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:24:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446392 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:24:16 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17630 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:24:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from duch.mimuw.edu.pl (duch.mimuw.edu.pl [193.0.96.2]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA17567 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:24:52 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 26734 invoked from network); 7 Dec 1999 22:21:50 -0000 Received: from pe7.warszawa.ppp.tpnet.pl (HELO Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl) (marcin@212.160.56.7) by duch.mimuw.edu.pl with SMTP; 7 Dec 1999 22:21:50 -0000 Received: (from marcin@localhost) by Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA00401; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:02:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <417f4014@corona.oche.de> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14413.33805.485658.811893@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:02:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Marcin Wolinski Subject: Re: Classes -- a generalization of templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg wrote: > There are two separate aspects of what is called OOP or object oriented > programming, one that the objects are dynamic (as you say), and another > that the objects constitute localized namespaces. > [...] > I think I pointed that the dynamic aspect does not appear to make sense in > TeX. Therefore I concentrated on the static, namespace, aspect, which just > as templates just requires macro expansions. The problem is you cannot fully implement static namespaces in TeX --- not for all primitive datatypes present. Note that templates do not allocate s. For some types (e.g. macro names) this is not needed. For others (dimension registers, counters) it is. But precisely for those we do not want to allocate registers inside the template code. Moreover assignments done by template code are not local to that piece of code --- no grouping done by the template mechanism itself. Some more perverse templates use for s TeX's internal parameters such as \leftskip, \rightskip or \parindent. And the assignment done has to last past the end of execution of template code. It can be argued whether this is use or abuse, anyway it seems very useful. So the seemingly obvious similarity to objects is in fact rather misleading. A real TeX hacker would probably say that templates are a useless thin wrapper around calc that provides no new interesting features besides the ability to freeze calc computed values. :-) Here is real hacker's implementation of templates: \newskip\barskip % \DeclareTemplate{mytemplate} (two template arguments): \def\mytemplate#1#2#3{% \def\foo##1{##1}% default \foo \barskip=42dd % default \barskip #1% this is DoParametersAssignments % template code here: \vskip\barskip \hbox@to\textwidth{\foo{#2}\hfil #3}% whatever \vskip\barskip } % UseTemplate: % \mycommand accepts two arguments \def\mycommand{% \mytemplate{\def\foo##1{\textbf{##1}}% not sure whether to % quadruple #'s here - i'm % not a real TeX hacker }} % we use the default value for \barskip here % And in the document: \mycommand{real hacker}{13} And an optimizing hacker with syntactic sugar would provide this implementation instead: \def\mytemplate#1#2#3{{% \def\foo##1{##1}% \let\barskip\@tempskipa \@tempskipa=42dd #1% this is DoParametersAssignments % template code here: \vskip\barskip \hbox@to\textwidth{\foo{#2}\hfil #3}% whatever \vskip\barskip }} (with instantiation as above) So maybe we should abandon all this strange template stuff and start real programming? Just kidding. Marcin 7-Dec-1999 23:03:12-GMT,4608;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03556 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:03:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA21581; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:01:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA23543; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:00:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445208 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:00:50 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23521 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:00:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA21535 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:01:26 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 24102 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 00:01:24 +0100 Received: from du130-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.162?) (195.100.226.130) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 00:01:24 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se References: <417f4014@corona.oche.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:56:14 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: Classes -- a generalization of templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <14413.33805.485658.811893@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> At 23:02 +0100 1999/12/07, Marcin Wolinski wrote: >> I think I pointed that the dynamic aspect does not appear to make sense in >> TeX. Therefore I concentrated on the static, namespace, aspect, which just >> as templates just requires macro expansions. > >The problem is you cannot fully implement static namespaces in TeX --- >not for all primitive datatypes present. With much of the development of computer languages, there is the idea that the user should be forced to program in certain ways. TeX does not have such a mechanism that could put restraints of usage in say LaTeX. It would be great if TeX had such a capacity, but there is no point in taking up that aspect with TeX as it now is. >So the seemingly obvious similarity to objects is in fact rather >misleading. I should said that what I called an ``object'' in my TeX description is not say a C++ class or anything similar. Another comment though is that even though that the final TeX output is a static DVI page, the processes at arriving there are fairly dynamic: One can after all use \def to define a new operator. The difference between say \newenvironment and \new{environment} is that the latter can be used ``dynamically'' with a parameter \new #1 The fact that the use of \csname..\endcsname makes this slow is then just a variation of a general fact that programming with dynamic structures is slow. One can even do something that is similar to polymorphism in TeX by the use of the \let operator: \let\a\b ``mutates'' the \a macro into the value of the \b macro. I just mention this as an input of ideas: If one has the ideas of OOP in ones mind, then one might make use of this in LaTeX somehow. I think that LaTeX will require OOP at least in the form of localization of macro names into different namespaces, due to the fact that LaTeX has grown so wast, and this will be needed in order to avoid name clashes, and so that one program against interfaces without really having to know about the interior of the objects one is manipulating. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 8-Dec-1999 17:12:53-GMT,3645;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26497 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:12:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA09816; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:03:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA25067; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:55:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445857 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:55:09 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16830 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:10:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from abel.math.umu.se (abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA01519 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:10:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by abel.math.umu.se (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA08676 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:07:43 +0100 (CET) X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se References: <14413.33805.485658.811893@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> <417f4014@corona.oche.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id RAA16961 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:10:54 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Classes -- a generalization of templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg wrote: >With much of the development of computer languages, there is the idea that >the user should be forced to program in certain ways. > >TeX does not have such a mechanism that could put restraints of usage in >say LaTeX. It would be great if TeX had such a capacity, but there is no >point in taking up that aspect with TeX as it now is. At the risk of sounding like I would want to expel you Hans, I would like to say that it seems to me that your energy would be better spent on writing an alternative TeX front end within the framework of the NTS project. :-) Not only is the creation of a completely new front end the natural framework for introducing such ideas as lambda calculus and probably also a more throrough implementation of namespaces, but it is also the case that the modularity that the NTS project strive to achieve is most likely helped if there are complete alternatives to each module. Considering your predilection for OOP, it seems to me that you should find the NTS project nice; as I understand it, they do OOP throughout. Lars Hellström 8-Dec-1999 18:37:34-GMT,4949;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28733 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:37:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA23453; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:36:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA09352; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:29:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445984 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:29:06 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08121 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:15:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA20597 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:15:33 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 6911 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 19:15:42 +0100 Received: from du167-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.167?) (195.100.226.167) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 19:15:42 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se References: <14413.33805.485658.811893@Wincenty.nowhere.edu.pl> <417f4014@corona.oche.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id TAA08150 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:14:53 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: Classes -- a generalization of templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: At 17:10 +0100 1999/12/08, Lars Hellström wrote: >>With much of the development of computer languages, there is the idea that >>the user should be forced to program in certain ways. >> >>TeX does not have such a mechanism that could put restraints of usage in >>say LaTeX. It would be great if TeX had such a capacity, but there is no >>point in taking up that aspect with TeX as it now is. > >At the risk of sounding like I would want to expel you Hans, I would like >to say that it seems to me that your energy would be better spent on >writing an alternative TeX front end within the framework of the NTS >project. :-) Not only is the creation of a completely new front end the >natural framework for introducing such ideas as lambda calculus and >probably also a more throrough implementation of namespaces, but it is also >the case that the modularity that the NTS project strive to achieve is most >likely helped if there are complete alternatives to each module. >Considering your predilection for OOP, it seems to me that you should find >the NTS project nice; as I understand it, they do OOP throughout. My guess is that when NFS arrives and becomes a standard replacing TeX, then the stuff developed within LaTeX can be done in a way that the input syntax is checked. (I am no longer on the NTS list I think, because I did not get any mail there for a long time.) But my guess is that LaTeX will need to make use of such ideas before that. Then one does ``objects'' which are simply not checked by TeX, but which has the capacity of carrying some of the structure that one wants to describe -- such as names localized into various kinds of namespaces (like classes) and programming with respect to interfaces. As for myself, I already decided to make my own computer program of a runtime model which understands lambda calculus. So I do not need any computer language in order to express my ideas (other than the language it is written in, currently C++). It is possible to download ideas from this runtime model to other contexts: For example, the idea with typed TeX ``objects'' comes from my model rather than from C++. If one uses dynamic objects, then the object which is considered the constructor of an object x can be identified with the (static) type of x. (Perhaps this idea is prevalent in Object C.) Hans Aberg 13-Dec-1999 6:37:30-GMT,2756;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11536 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 23:37:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA04199; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:36:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA20559; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:34:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445389 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:34:34 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA20539 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:34:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (ausmtp02.au.ibm.COM [202.135.136.105]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA04115 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:35:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from f03n05e.au.ibm.com by ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (IBM AP 1.0) with ESMTP id RAA42746 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:26:57 +1100 Received: from d73mta05.au.ibm.com (f06n05s [9.185.166.67]) by f03n05e.au.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA45938 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:34:59 +1100 Received: by d73mta05.au.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id CA256846.002428D2 ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:34:57 +1100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMIN@IBMAU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:39:47 +0530 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Johara Shahabuddin Subject: TEX on Win 9x To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L hi, the only freeware i found on the net for using tex on windows 9x, was miktex. how good is it? what else do i need to download for everything to work: figures, ghostscript, spellcheck, dvi type command, etc? how good is it: i.e., do you recommend using it or trying to buy vtex? thanks, jo. 13-Dec-1999 7:26:49-GMT,3174;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12782 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 00:26:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA06676; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:25:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA25352; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:25:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445404 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:25:09 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25345 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:25:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from linpwd (linpwd.mpae.gwdg.de [134.76.28.202]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA06658 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:25:39 +0100 (MET) X-VMS-To: SMTP%"LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de" X-VMS-Cc: DALY Message-ID: <99121308255106@linpwd.mpae.gwdg.de> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:25:51 +0200 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: "P.W.Daly, MPAe, Lindau, Germany" Subject: Re: TEX on Win 9x To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Freeware for tex under win32? MikTeX is not the only one. I use fptex which is Fabrice Popineau's WIN32 installation of Karl Berry's web2c tex system. For unix freaks, this means fptex is tetex for windows. I used MikTeX a few years ago when it was new and found it acceptable, although there were a few minor things that bothered me. Fptex did not have these, so I switched. Fptex supports all the extra software that one expects of a full tex installation, including pdftex, tex4ht, and many others that I do not use. I can only recommend it heartily. Available on ctan under systems/win32/fptex or from the source ftp.ese-metz.fr/pub/tex/win32 By the way, I have only heard good things about MikTeX so I do not want to criticise it at all. I just do not have any more experience with it myself and the things that bothered me long ago were really minor and may even no longer be there. Regards, Patrick ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Patrick W. Daly Tel. [+49] 5556-979-279 Max-Planck-Institut fuer Aeronomie Fax. [+49] 5556-979-240 Max-Planck-Str. 2 D-37191 Katlenburg-Lindau Internet: daly@linmpi.mpg.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15-Dec-1999 4:30:15-GMT,2859;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA13036 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:30:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA14035; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 05:28:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA07125; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 05:27:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445338 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 05:27:16 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA07118 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 05:27:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from jumping-spider.aracnet.com (jumping-spider.aracnet.com [205.159.88.14]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA14009 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 05:27:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from salmo.appl-ecosys.com (216-99-206-23.cust.aracnet.com [216.99.206.23]) by jumping-spider.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20152 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:28:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:27:48 -0800 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Rich Shepard Subject: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L I'm starting to migrate to LaTeX. I've read several books (the most useful -- for me -- is Bernice Lipkin's "LaTeX for Linux") and now I need some help making our font families usable for LaTeX. If this is not the right place to get such help, please tell me what mail list or newsgroup is appropriate. TIA, Rich Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM) Making environmentally-responsible mining happen. (SM) -------------------------------- 2404 SW 22nd Street | Troutdale, OR 97060-1247 | U.S.A. + 1 503-667-4517 (voice) | + 1 503-667-8863 (fax) | rshepard@appl-ecosys.com 15-Dec-1999 6:53:28-GMT,2637;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15899 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:53:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA17765; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:27:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA11516; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:26:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445397 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:26:23 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11505 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:26:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (ausmtp02.au.ibm.COM [202.135.136.105]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA17734 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:26:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from f03n05e.au.ibm.com by ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (IBM AP 1.0) with ESMTP id RAA122374 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:18:52 +1100 Received: from d73mta05.au.ibm.com (f06n05s [9.185.166.67]) by f03n05e.au.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA48184 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:26:52 +1100 Received: by d73mta05.au.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id CA256848.00236427 ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:26:33 +1100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMIN@IBMAU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:31:22 +0530 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Johara Shahabuddin Subject: Re: TEX on Win 9x To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hi, Thanks....so I have a generally its-not-so-good response on MiKTeX, and some people who prefer fptex. Now fptex is for win32. Can I use it for windows 98? How? Johara. 15-Dec-1999 7:46:50-GMT,2941;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17277 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:46:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA20994; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:30:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA14384; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:29:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445408 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:29:28 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA14377 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:29:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from wisbech.cl.cam.ac.uk (mta1.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.0.15]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA20956 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:29:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk ([128.232.1.34] helo=cl.cam.ac.uk ident=rf) by wisbech.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.092 #1) id 11y8sy-00060V-00; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:30:08 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:30:06 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:27:48 PST." this mailing list is dedicated to discussing the future development of latex; it isn't therefore really suitable as a `help' address. the most suitable place to ask for help is the usenet group comp.text.tex; however, i would recommend some background reading before you start there. `tex unbound' by alan hoenig has a lot of detail of the process of integrating new font families. `the latex graphics companion' also has a good chapter on the subject and is highly recommended for graphics work (proceeds from its sales also contribute to the latex project...). the publisher, isbn, and other details are available from the question on books in http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?introduction=yes (adding details of lipkin's book is on my `to do' list...) r 15-Dec-1999 7:53:47-GMT,2762;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17406 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:53:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA21381; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:34:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA14731; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:34:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445411 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:34:01 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA14720 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:34:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from wisbech.cl.cam.ac.uk (mta1.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.0.15]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA21367 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:34:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk ([128.232.1.34] helo=cl.cam.ac.uk ident=rf) by wisbech.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.092 #1) id 11y8xR-000629-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:34:45 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:34:44 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: TEX on Win 9x To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:31:22 +0530." > Thanks....so I have a generally its-not-so-good response on MiKTeX, and > some people who prefer fptex. Now fptex is for win32. Can I use it for > windows 98? How? this is in fact a mailing list for discussing the future development of latex; please don't fill it with queries such as this: the usenet group comp.text.tex is a far better place for non-latex discussion. in answer to your question -- win32 is the name of the interface; 'doze nt offers rather more functionality than either 95 or 98, but both miktex and fptex will work under all three `operating systems'. r 15-Dec-1999 11:07:24-GMT,2868;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA20736 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 04:07:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA20658; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:55:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA06423; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:54:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445743 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:54:14 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06405 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:54:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail4.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.33]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA20591 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:54:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11yC5C-0004dL-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:54:58 +0000 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17]) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11yC5C-0005Vx-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:54:58 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: X-Mailer: VM 6.73 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14423.29569.546231.686700@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:54:57 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Robin Fairbairns writes: > `the latex graphics companion' also has a good chapter on the subject > and is highly recommended for graphics work (proceeds from its sales > also contribute to the latex project...). Not true, I am afraid. The royalties are split between the 3 authors only. Sebastian 15-Dec-1999 11:26:28-GMT,2455;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21023 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 04:26:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA21642; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:00:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA07146; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:59:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445762 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:59:50 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07135 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:59:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from thales.astro.rug.nl (thales.astro.rug.nl [129.125.6.224]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA21586 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:00:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from gladia.astro.rug.nl (gladia.astro.rug.nl [129.125.6.17]) by thales.astro.rug.nl with SMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.7.1) id MAA25307 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:01:51 +0100 (MET) X-VMS-To: LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE X-VMS-Cc: HELBIG Message-ID: <99121512020372@man.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:02:03 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Phillip Helbig Subject: Re: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L > Robin Fairbairns writes: > > `the latex graphics companion' also has a good chapter on the subject > > and is highly recommended for graphics work (proceeds from its sales > > also contribute to the latex project...). > > Not true, I am afraid. The royalties are split between the 3 authors only. > > Sebastian Is that necessarily a contradiction? 15-Dec-1999 11:26:36-GMT,3357;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21027 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 04:26:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA23473; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:11:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA08369; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:10:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445780 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:10:56 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08358 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:10:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA23300 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:10:50 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 5851 invoked from network); 15 Dec 1999 12:10:45 +0100 Received: from du137-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se (HELO ?195.100.226.143?) (195.100.226.137) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 15 Dec 1999 12:10:45 +0100 X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:09:58 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Hans Aberg Subject: Re: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <99121512020372@man.ac.uk> (Sorry for answering this thread.) At 12:02 +0100 1999/12/15, Phillip Helbig wrote: >> Robin Fairbairns writes: >> > `the latex graphics companion' also has a good chapter on the subject >> > and is highly recommended for graphics work (proceeds from its sales >> > also contribute to the latex project...). >> >> Not true, I am afraid. The royalties are split between the 3 authors only. >> >> Sebastian > >Is that necessarily a contradiction? It depends on whether one is deceptive or not: If the money for the proceeds goes directly to a person which happens to work at the LaTeX project, then most would think that it is not in the support of the LaTeX project specifically, as the person getting the money can do whatever she pleases with it. Only if the money is specifically earmarked as belonging in support of the LaTeX project would one expect it to be so. But a deceptive person would surely label the former case as being the latter case. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: 15-Dec-1999 11:28:36-GMT,2942;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21073 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 04:28:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA24075; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:15:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA08801; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:14:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445787 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:14:36 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08792 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:14:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from thales.astro.rug.nl (thales.astro.rug.nl [129.125.6.224]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA24037 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:15:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from gladia.astro.rug.nl (gladia.astro.rug.nl [129.125.6.17]) by thales.astro.rug.nl with SMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.7.1) id MAA25937 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:16:37 +0100 (MET) X-VMS-To: SMTP%"LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de" X-VMS-Cc: HELBIG Message-ID: <99121512151928@man.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:15:19 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Phillip Helbig Subject: Re: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L > It depends on whether one is deceptive or not: If the money for the > proceeds goes directly to a person which happens to work at the LaTeX > project, then most would think that it is not in the support of the LaTeX > project specifically, as the person getting the money can do whatever she > pleases with it. Only if the money is specifically earmarked as belonging > in support of the LaTeX project would one expect it to be so. But a > deceptive person would surely label the former case as being the latter > case. Do the `people in the LaTeX 3 project' get paid directly for their work? Or is it a `spare-time' effort? If the latter, the fact that they get royalties keeps them from having to work more elsewhere (assuming that they are not independently wealthy) presumably aids the project by allowing them to work on it. 15-Dec-1999 11:33:03-GMT,2687;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21137 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 04:33:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA25818; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:26:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA09904; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:25:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445792 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:25:35 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09887 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:25:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from wisbech.cl.cam.ac.uk (mta1.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.0.15]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA25763 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:26:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from dorceus.cl.cam.ac.uk ([128.232.1.34] helo=cl.cam.ac.uk ident=rf) by wisbech.cl.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.092 #1) id 11yCZW-0007FG-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:26:18 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:26:15 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:09:58 +0100." > (Sorry for answering this thread.) hah! > >> Not true, I am afraid. The royalties are split between the 3 authors only. > > >Is that necessarily a contradiction? > > It depends on whether one is deceptive or not: [...] oh for goodness' sake -- i made a simple mistake, that's all. please let's drop it. pseudo-philosophical discussions of my mental state at the time i made the mistake are wildly off-topic for this list -- try usenet alt.psychology.mistake-theory, or some such place. r 15-Dec-1999 11:49:46-GMT,2333;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21283 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 04:49:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA26310; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:30:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA10281; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:29:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445797 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:29:32 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10261 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:29:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from nag.co.uk (openmath.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.16]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA26254 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:29:51 +0100 (MET) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by nag.co.uk (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id LAA24720; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:26:06 GMT References: <99121512151928@man.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199912151126.LAA24720@nag.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:26:06 GMT Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: David Carlisle Subject: Re: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <99121512151928@man.ac.uk> (message from Phillip Helbig on Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:15:19 +0100) > Do the `people in the LaTeX 3 project' get paid directly for their > work? No. They get the occasional air fair paid so we get to see each other a couple of times a year. And very occasionally help with equipment purchases. LaTeX support is a hobby. David 15-Dec-1999 11:53:11-GMT,3139;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21337 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 04:53:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA28889; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:45:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12612; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:44:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446024 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:44:17 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12599 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:44:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail4.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.33]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA28859 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:44:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11yCrc-0005tu-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:45:00 +0000 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17]) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11yCrc-0004fK-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:45:00 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <99121512020372@man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.73 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14423.32571.680545.937865@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:44:59 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: Hans Aberg writes: > It depends on whether one is deceptive or not: ... >If the money for the > pleases with it. Only if the money is specifically earmarked as belonging > in support of the LaTeX project would one expect it to be so. But a > deceptive person would surely label the former case as being the latter > case. I have no wish to deceive anyone. The agreement for the original LaTeX Companion split the royalties 50/50 between the LaTeX project and the authors. The other two LaTeX Companions simply give royalties to the authors. Speaking for myself, I have no idea where the money goes.... Sebastian 15-Dec-1999 12:03:43-GMT,2632;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA21525 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 05:03:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29536; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:49:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA13159; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:48:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446043 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:48:42 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13140 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:48:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail1.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.1]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29498 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:49:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11yCve-0003pU-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:49:10 +0000 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17]) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11yCvo-00071B-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:49:20 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <99121512151928@man.ac.uk> <199912151126.LAA24720@nag.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.73 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14423.32831.619991.307725@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:49:19 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199912151126.LAA24720@nag.co.uk> David Carlisle writes: > LaTeX support is a hobby. "cross one has to bear" is another phrase that comes to mind.... Sebastian 15-Dec-1999 21:57:37-GMT,4188;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05627 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:57:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA25107; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:55:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17929; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:54:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446511 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:54:10 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17922 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:54:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA25045 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:54:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin408.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.108]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21733 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:54:51 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00435; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:25:26 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <99121512151928@man.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199912152125.WAA00435@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:25:26 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <99121512151928@man.ac.uk> Phillip Helbig writes: > Do the `people in the LaTeX 3 project' get paid directly for their work? > Or is it a `spare-time' effort? If the latter, the fact that they get > royalties keeps them from having to work more elsewhere (assuming that > they are not independently wealthy) presumably aids the project by > allowing them to work on it. for the record: half of the LaTeX Companion royalties (and half of the royalties of its translations in German, Japanese, and Russian) are contributed by the authors (i.e. Michel Goossens, Alexander Samarin and me) to the LaTeX3 fund a substancial amount of the royalties of the LaTeX Manual by Leslie Lamport are contributed to that fund. the other books in the ttct series, eg the LaTeX Graphics Companion and the LaTeX Web Companion do not directly contribute to the fund (this was a plain honnest mistake on Robin's end and i'm sure that there was no intention whatsoever to be deceptive) --- as an aside my work as an editor for the series also benefited the fund as Addison-Wesley contributed a substancial amount to it after me taking on this work. people on the project do not get paid for their work other than indicated by David, e.g., by getting some of their direct expenses for travelling payed. As for myself, I'm working 4 days in industry (i.e on a payed job) having dedicated the fifth day (as well as many nights and weekends) to an "expensive hobby" called supporting and developing LaTeX. The royalties for the books that directly go to me do not cover the expenses but the smooth the gap between a five and a four day contract so that i could make that decision. So in that sense the royalties for the Graphics Companion do indeed support the LaTeX3 development. frank 16-Dec-1999 23:05:14-GMT,2816;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05996 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:05:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA07503; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:02:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA26062; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:00:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445265 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:00:47 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA26052 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:00:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.1]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA07422 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:01:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from hamble.maths.uq.edu.au (hamble.maths.uq.edu.au [130.102.160.20]) by bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18174 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:00:50 +1000 (GMT+1000) Received: (from kgs@localhost) by hamble.maths.uq.edu.au (8.8.6/0.0.0) id JAA00813 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:00:48 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <199912162300.JAA00813@hamble.maths.uq.edu.au> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:00:48 +1000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Ken Smith Subject: Re: Is help available here? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L This is getting off-topic for the list, but ... > > Do the `people in the LaTeX 3 project' get paid directly for their > > work? > No. > They get the occasional air fair paid so we get to see each other a > couple of times a year. And very occasionally help with equipment > purchases. > LaTeX support is a hobby. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I suspect that most people (like me) who find themselves in a position where people yell for help about solving some LaTeX problem, also do it as a hobby - or, at least, like me, do it for love rather than money. > David Ken Smith 18-Dec-1999 14:55:40-GMT,2486;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19361 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:55:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05207; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:54:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA24184; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:52:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445581 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:52:52 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA24173 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:52:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp02.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05160 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:53:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.72.79] ([195.5.72.79]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FMXYNM06.92C for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:52:34 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199912181453.PAA05160@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:52:36 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Missing messages? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Some days ago I sent a couple of messages with the subject "A couple of TOC templates", but I've not received them yet. My subscription is configured to receive my own messages (with SET LATEX-L REPRO) and I received all of my messages except those. Does anybody received them? If not I will repost them. \bye Javier 18-Dec-1999 17:54:51-GMT,2827;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22276 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:54:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA15625; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:50:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA04214; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:49:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445678 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:49:44 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04199 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:49:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA15552 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:50:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin391.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.91]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11823; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:50:27 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA00477; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:17:45 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199912181453.PAA05160@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <199912181617.RAA00477@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:17:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: Missing messages? To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199912181453.PAA05160@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Javier, > Some days ago I sent a couple of messages with the subject > "A couple of TOC templates", but I've not received them yet. neither have I not here nor at my work account. so it probably failed for some reason. > except those. Does anybody received them? If not I will > repost them. please do. if the message was very large consider splitting perhaps there is a limit set. frank 20-Dec-1999 13:12:02-GMT,4793;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA04125 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:12:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA10149; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:51:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA13838; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:50:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445982 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:50:32 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13816 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:50:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp01.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA10021 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:51:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.78.82] ([195.5.78.82]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Nov 19 1999 19:47:43) with SMTP id FN1IBF03.32F for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:50:03 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199912201251.NAA10021@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:50:04 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: A couple of TOC templates (3) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L ========================== xtitletoc.tex begins \documentclass{article} \usepackage{xtitletoc} \IgnoreWhiteSpace \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{section}{JB1}{ pre-action = \DelayEvaluation{\addvspace{1pc plus 1pt}}, right-adjust = 3pt, title-format = \textbf{#1}, label-format = \textbf{\thecontentslabel}, left-margin = \DelayEvaluation{1.5em}, label-width = \DelayEvaluation{1.5em}, page-format = \textbf{\hfil#1}, leaders-text = .} % current left-margin = previous left-margin + label-width \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{subsection}{JB1}{ right-adjust = 3pt, left-margin = \DelayEvaluation{3.8em}, label-width = \DelayEvaluation{2.3em}} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{subsubsection}{JB1}{ right-adjust = 3pt, left-margin = \DelayEvaluation{7em}, label-width = \DelayEvaluation{3.2em}} %======================== \DeclareCollectionInstance{runin}{contentsobject}{section}{JB2} { pre-action = \addvspace{3pt plus .2pt}, decls = \itshape, right-margin = 0pt, punct-sub = \ (, punct-end = . } \DeclareCollectionInstance{runin}{contentsobject}{subsection}{JB2} { decls = \itshape, right-margin = 0pt, punct-sup = );\ , punct-end = ). } \begin{document} \newcommand\testtoc[1]{ \section*{THE TEST: #1} \contentsobject {1}{1}{section}{1}{A first section}{}{1} \contentsobject {2}{2}{subsection}{1.1}{A first subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {3}{2}{subsection}{1.2}{A second subsection with an awful long title: some text or other to get us going right?}{}{1} \contentsobject {4}{3}{subsubsection}{1.2.1}{A direct subsubsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {5}{1}{section}{\NoValue }{Heading two as section}{}{1} \contentsobject {6}{2}{subsection}{1.3}{With a direct subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {7}{3}{subsubsection}{1.3.1}{And some subsubsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {13}{1}{section}{2}{And another section}{}{1}\tracingcode \contentsobject {14}{2}{subsection}{2.1}{that has a subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {15}{1}{section}{3}{A test}{}{2} \contentsobject {16}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue }{with an unnumbered subsection}{}{2} \csname ttl@finish\endcsname %% Added by titletoc to the toc file } \testtoc{1} \setcounter{tocdepth}{2} \UseCollection{contentsobject}{runin} \testtoc{2} % to add another toc example (chose a collection name FOO) % add some CollectionInstances above and do: %\UseCollection{contentsobject}{FOO} %\testtoc{3} \stop ============================ xtitletoc.tex ends 20-Dec-1999 13:13:14-GMT,7226;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA04129 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:13:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA10172; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:51:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA13920; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:50:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445985 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:50:56 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13839 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:50:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp01.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA09941 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:51:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.78.82] ([195.5.78.82]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Nov 19 1999 19:47:43) with SMTP id FN1IAY03.R29 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:49:46 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199912201251.NAA09941@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:49:45 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: A couple of TOC templates (1) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L (Message in three parts, because LaTeX-L rejects long messages) Below there are two enclosed files corresponding to titletoc with templates added, and a trial file. The main goal is to show a different approach to TOC attributes and how entries could be grouped in a single paragraph. I'm currently working in some improvements and many bugs remain to be fixed, but it provides a mock-up of the main ideas. I have not finished yet partial tocs and hence I removed the code from the sent files; the processcontents is just a copy of the code by James Kilfiger. The attributes of standard toc entries (JB1) are: pre-action: Code to be executed before the entry, post-action: Code to be executed after the entry, decls: declarations (usually paragraph format ones), left-margin: the left margin related to the entry text (*not* the label), right-margin: the right margin related to the entry text, right-adjust: a correction for leaders (the leader chars are not centered in the enclosing box, but aligned to right), this parametes adjusts the entry text so that its right margin and the leaders are algned, label-format: It should include code for making the label hangs, label-width: title-format: self-explanatories title-format-nolabel: if present, overrides the title format in unlabeled entries, page-format: It should include code for making the page hangs, leaders-text: leaders-width: self-explanatories The attributes of "paragraphed" toc entries (JB2) are: pre-action: Only that of the very first grouped entry is executed, decls: left-margin: right-margin: label-format: title-format: title-format-nolabel: page-format: As before, except that neither the label nor the page hang, punct-sep: Default separator, punct-end: Ending puntuation, only that of the very last grouped entry is executed. =f0 [.] \COpunct@end, punct-sup: Separator when the following entry is one level above (eg, subsection section) punct-sup-sup: Id. two levels above (eg subsubsection section) punct-sub: Id. one level below (eg, section subsection) Since the right-margin is usually set for all of entries, the command \contentsmargin[correction]{right} is provided. The default values for the corresponding attributes are taken from a couple of internal macros set by it. \bye \bye Javier ps. As I'm gettting more and more involved in an Omega project, I'm not sure if I can continue with this discussion. I will try it, anyway. =========================== xtitlesec.sty begins \ProvidesPackage{xtitletoc} \RequirePackage{xparse} \RequirePackage{template} % The following tags are used: % ttl@ : the generic one, shared with titlesec % ttle@ : ending puntuation for block format % ttll@ : section level % ttlx@ : file extension \newif\ifttl@numsec \newif\ifttl@fromblock \providecommand\titleline{% \@ifnextchar[{\ttl@line}{\ttl@line[s]}} \def\ttl@line[#1]#2{% \vskip\topskip \hrule \@height \z@ \nobreak \vskip-\topskip \begingroup \parindent\z@ \everypar{}% \leftskip\z@ \rightskip\z@ \@makebox[\hsize][#1]{\ttl@makeline{#2}}% \par \endgroup \hrule height \z@ \nobreak} % Fillers: \providecommand\titlerule{\@ifstar{\ttl@row}{\ttl@rule}} \let\ttl@leaders\xleaders \def\ttl@row{\@ifnextchar[{\ttl@row@i}{\ttl@row@i[\wd\z@]}} \def\ttl@row@i[#1]#2{% \ifvmode\expandafter\titleline\fi {\sbox\z@{#2}% \hspace{-#1}% \hskip\wd\z@ \ttl@leaders\hb@xt@#1{\hss\box\z@}% \hfill\kern\z@}} \def\ttl@rule{\@ifnextchar[{\ttl@rule@i}{\ttl@rule@i[.4pt]}} \def\ttl@rule@i[#1]{% \ifvmode\expandafter\titleline\fi {\leaders\hrule height #1\hfill\kern\z@}} \providecommand\filright{% \gdef\es@filleft##1{\hskip##1}% \gdef\es@filright##1{\hfill}% \let\\\@centercr \advance\rightskip\z@ \@plus 1fil\relax} \providecommand\filleft{% \gdef\es@filleft##1{\hfill}% \gdef\es@filright##1{\hskip##1}% \let\\\@centercr \advance\leftskip\z@ \@plus 1fil \parfillskip\z@} \providecommand\filcenter{\filleft\filright \gdef\es@filleft##1{\hfill}} \providecommand\fillast{% \gdef\es@filleft##1{\hfill}% \gdef\es@filright##1{\hfill}% \let\\\@centercr \filleft\advance\rightskip\z@ \@plus -1fil \parfillskip\z@ \@plus 2fil\relax} % User interface % ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ % Tools: \DeclareOption{dotinlabels}{\def\ttl@idot{.}} \DeclareOption{nodotinlabels}{\let\ttl@idot\@empty} \DeclareOption{leftlabels}{% \renewcommand\numberline[1]{\hb@xt@\@tempdima{#1\ttl@idot\hfil}}% \newcommand\contentslabel[2][\thecontentslabel\ttl@idot]{% \hspace*{-#2}\hb@xt@#2{#1\hfil}}} \DeclareOption{rightlabels}{% \renewcommand\numberline[1]{\hb@xt@\@tempdima{\hss#1\ttl@idot\enspace}}% \let\contentslabel\relax \newcommand\contentslabel[2][\thecontentslabel\ttl@idot\enspace]{% \hspace*{-#2}\hb@xt@#2{\hfil#1}}} \newcommand\contentspage[1][\thecontentspage]{% \hb@xt@\@pnumwidth{\hfil#1}% \hspace*{-\@pnumwidth}} \newcommand\contentspush[1]{% \sbox\z@{#1}% \advance\leftskip\wd\z@ \leavevmode\llap{\box\z@}} 20-Dec-1999 19:33:06-GMT,7745;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12740 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:33:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13360; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:32:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA02951; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:30:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446728 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:30:39 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02944 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:30:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp01.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13288 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:31:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.71.197] ([195.5.71.197]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Nov 19 1999 19:47:43) with SMTP id FN20UO03.913 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:30:24 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199912201931.UAA13288@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:30:25 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: TOC templates (part 1 of part 2) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L % General commands % A level register. Explicit numbers because they are % used in csnames. \let\ttl@prefix\@empty \def\ttl@setlevels#1#2{% \count@=#1 \@for\ttl@a:=#2\do{% \expandafter\edef\csname ttll@\ttl@prefix\ttl@a\endcsname {\the\count@}% \advance\count@\@ne}} \def\ttl@levels{{-1}{part,chapter,section,subsection,subsubsection,% paragraph,subparagraph}} \@ifundefined{chapter} {\def\ttl@levels{{\z@}{part,section,subsection,% subsubsection,paragraph,subparagraph}}} {\def\ttl@levels{{\m@ne}{part,chapter,section,subsection, subsubsection,paragraph,subparagraph}}} \expandafter\ttl@setlevels\ttl@levels % We make sure that a series of * entries are finished and % that a \titlecontents in the middle of a document is % written to the right file. \newcommand\contentsuse[2]{% \expandafter\def\csname ttlx@#1\endcsname{#2}% \expandafter\def\csname ttll@#1\endcsname{-1000}% \AtEndDocument{\addtocontents{#2}{\protect\ttl@finish}}} \contentsuse{figure}{lof} \contentsuse{table}{lot} \AtEndDocument{\addtocontents{toc}{\protect\ttl@finish}} \def\ttl@finish{% \ifttl@fromblock \csname ttle@\ttl@lasttoc\endcsname \@@par \endgroup \global\ttl@fromblockfalse \fi} % There is a further tag % ttle@: ending punctuacion % % The two basic commands: \newcommand\contentsmargin[1][\z@]{% \def\ttl@corr{#1}\def\@pnumwidth} \newcommand\ttl@margin[2][\z@]{% \def\ttl@corr{#1}% \advance\rightskip-\@pnumwidth\relax \advance\rightskip#1\relax \def\@pnumwidth{#2}} %% titlecontents deals with concepts, not commands; hence no escape \newcommand\titlecontents{% \@ifstar{\ttl@contents{\z@}} {\ttl@contents{\@ne}}} \def\ttl@contents#1#2{% \@ifnextchar[{\ttl@contents@x{#1}{#2}} {\PackageError{titletoc}{Unimplemented}% {The optional argument is currently mandatory}}}% \def\ttl@contents@x#1#2[#3]#4#5#6#7{% \@ifnextchar[{\ttl@contents@i{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}}% {\ttl@contents@i{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}[]}} \def\ttl@contents@i#1#2#3#4#5#6#7[#8]{% \ifcase#1 \expandafter\@firstoftwo \else \expandafter\@secondoftwo \fi {\@ifnextchar[{\ttl@contents@ii{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}{#8}} {\ttl@contents@ii{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}{#8}[]}} {\ttl@contents@ii{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}{#8}[]}} \def\ttl@contents@ii#1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8[#9]{% \expandafter\def\csname l@#2\endcsname {\ttl@tocentry{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{{#5}{#6}}{#7}{#8}} \expandafter\def\csname ttle@#2\endcsname{#9}} \begingroup \catcode`\-=12\catcode`\>=12 \gdef\ttl@strip#1->#2\@@#3{\def#3{#2}} \endgroup \AtBeginDocument{% \let\ttl@change\ttl@contents@ii \def\ttl@contents@ii#1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8[#9]{% \def\ttl@a{\ttl@change{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}{#8}[#9]} \expandafter\ttl@strip\meaning\ttl@a\@@\ttl@a \addtocontents {\expandafter\ifx\csname ttlx@#2\endcsname\relax toc% \else \csname ttlx@#2\endcsname \fi}% {\ttl@a}}} % Printing the toc entry % ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \def\ttl@lasttoc{figure} % An inital dummy assignment % When \contentsafter is called \ttl@b is the current level and % \ttl@a the previous level. \newcommand\contentsafter[4]{% \count@\ttl@a \advance\count@-\ttl@b \advance\count@\@ne \ifcase\count@#1\or#2\or#3\or#4\else \PackageError{titletoc}{Unknown separation punctuation} {Punctuation for separating levels in blocked\MessageBreak toc entries are defined for the most important\MessageBreak cases only. See manual for further information}% \fi} % 1 ifblock, 2 sect name, 3 left, 4 before, % 5 {with}{without}, 6 filler/page, 7 after 8 title 9 pageno \def\ttl@tocentry#1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{% \edef\ttl@b{\csname ttll@#2\endcsname}% \ifnum\ttl@b>\c@tocdepth\else \ifnum\ttl@b<\ttl@toctop\else \edef\ttl@a{\csname ttll@\ttl@lasttoc\endcsname}% % \gdef\thecontentspage{#9}% Moved to templates % \global\let\thecontentslabel\@empty % \ttl@numsecfalse % \sbox\z@{% Unused box. It just catch the numberline % \def\numberline##1{\global\ttl@numsectrue\gdef\thecontentslabel{##1}}% % #8}% \ifttl@fromblock \ifcase#1\relax {\ttl@lastafter}% \else {\csname ttle@\ttl@lasttoc\endcsname}% \@@par \endgroup \@firstoftwo \fi \else \begingroup \ifnum\ttl@b>\ttl@a \nobreak \else\ifnum\ttl@b<\ttl@a \addpenalty{\@secpenalty}% \else \addpenalty{\z@}% \fi\fi \ifcase#1\relax\else\interlinepenalty\@M\fi \parindent\z@ \setlength\leftskip{#3}% \let\contentsmargin\ttl@margin \def\ttl@makeline##1{##1}% #4% \setlength\rightskip{\@pnumwidth}% \addtolength{\parfillskip}{-\ttl@corr}% \addtolength{\rightskip}{\ttl@corr}% \vskip \z@ \@plus .1\p@ \nobreak \let\ttl@leaders\leaders \fi \def\numberline##1{\ignorespaces}% \ifttl@numsec {\leavevmode\strut\@firstoftwo#5{#8}\strut\kern\z@}% \else {\leavevmode\strut\@secondoftwo#5{#8}\strut\kern\z@}% \fi {#6}% \ifcase#1\relax \global\ttl@fromblocktrue \protected@xdef\ttl@lastafter{#7}% \else \@@par \nobreak #7% \endgroup \global\ttl@fromblockfalse \fi \xdef\ttl@lasttoc{#2}% \fi \fi \ignorespaces} 20-Dec-1999 19:33:19-GMT,6886;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12750 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:33:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13357; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:32:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA03014; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:31:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446731 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:31:23 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02953 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:30:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp01.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13296 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:31:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.71.197] ([195.5.71.197]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Nov 19 1999 19:47:43) with SMTP id FN20US02.P0S for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:30:28 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199912201931.UAA13296@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:30:29 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: TOC templates (part 2 of part 2) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L \ExecuteOptions{leftlabels,nodotinlabels} \ProcessOptions % [...] \def\ttl@toctop{-1000} %[...] \@tempskipa\@pnumwidth \edef\@pnumwidth{\the\@tempskipa} \advance\@tempskipa-\@tocrmarg \edef\ttl@corr{-\the\@tempskipa} % Now the templates: \IgnoreWhiteSpace \newdimen\@tempdimd \newdimen\@tempdime \DeclareTemplateType{contentsobject}{7} \DeclareTemplateType{processcontents}{0} \def\comma{,} \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{JB1}{7}{ pre-action =f0 [] \COpre@action, post-action =f0 [] \COpost@action, decls =f0 [] \COobject@decl, left-margin =l [15pt] \@tempdimd, right-margin =l [\@pnumwidth] \@tempdime, right-adjust =l [\ttl@corr] \@tempdimb, label-format =f0 [\thecontentslabel] \COnumber@format, label-width =l [15pt] \@tempdima, title-format =f1 [#1] \COtitle@format, title-format-nolabel =f1 [\COtitle@format{#1}] \COtitle@format@nolbl, page-format =f1 [#1] \COpnum@format, leaders-text =f0 [.] \COleaders@action, leaders-width =l [1pc] \@tempdimc } {\IfNoValueTF{#4} {\let\thecontentslabel\@empty \ttl@numsecfalse} {\gdef\thecontentslabel{#4} \ttl@numsectrue} \gdef\thecontentspage{#7} \DoParameterAssignments \ttl@tocentry {\@ne} {#3} {\@tempdimd} {\contentsmargin[\@tempdimb]{\@tempdime} \COpre@action \COobject@decl} { {\contentslabel[\COnumber@format]{\@tempdima}\COtitle@format} {\hspace*{-\@tempdima}\COtitle@format@nolbl} } {\titlerule*[\@tempdimc]{\COleaders@action} \contentspage[\COpnum@format{\thecontentspage}]} {\COpost@action} {#5} {}} \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{JB2}{7}{ pre-action =f0 [] \COpre@action, post-action =f0 [] \COpost@action, decls =f0 [] \COobject@decl, left-margin =l [15pt] \@tempdimd, right-margin =l [\@pnumwidth] \@tempdime, label-format =f0 [\thecontentslabel.\ ] \COnumber@format, title-format =f1 [#1] \COtitle@format, title-format-nolabel =f1 [\COtitle@format{#1}] \COtitle@format@nolbl, page-format =f1 [{,~#1}] \COpnum@format, punct-sep =f0 [;\ ] \COpunct@sep, punct-end =f0 [.] \COpunct@end, punct-sup =f0 [;\ ] \COpunct@sup, punct-sup-sup =f0 [;\ ] \COpunct@supsup, punct-sub =f0 [;\ ] \COpunct@sub } {\IfNoValueTF{#4} {\let\thecontentslabel\@empty \ttl@numsecfalse} {\gdef\thecontentslabel{#4} \ttl@numsectrue} \gdef\thecontentspage{#7} \DoParameterAssignments \expandafter\protected@xdef\csname ttle@#3\endcsname{\COpunct@end} \ttl@tocentry {\z@} {#3} {\@tempdimd} {\contentsmargin[\@tempdimb]{\@tempdime} \COpre@action \COobject@decl} { {\COnumber@format\COtitle@format} {\COtitle@format@nolbl} } {\COpnum@format{\thecontentspage}} {\protect\contentsafter{\COpunct@sub}{\COpunct@sep} {\COpunct@sup}{\COpunct@supsup}} {#5} {}} \DeclareTemplate{processcontents}{JK}{0}{ start-action =f0 [\relax] \COstart@action, end-action =f0 [\relax] \COend@action, file-name =n [\jobname] \COfile@name, file-extension =n \COextension, contents-depth =c [2] \c@tocdepth, collection-id =n [] \COcollection@id, heading =f0 [\section*]\COheading, %actully use some instance name =n [\contentsname] \COname, header-format =f0 [\MakeUpperCase] \COheader@format } { \DoParameterAssignments \COheading{\COname \@mkboth{\CO@header@format\COname}{\CO@header@format\COname}} \begingroup \UseCollection{contentsobject}{\COcollection@id} %Is this wrong? \makeatletter \COstart@action \@input{\COfile@name.\COextension} \if@filesw \expandafter\newwrite\csname tf@\COextension\endcsname \immediate\openout \csname tf@\COextension\endcsname \COfile@name.\COextension\relax \fi \@nobreakfalse \endgroup } \DeclareInstance{processcontents}{tableofcontents}{JK}{ file-extension = toc } \DeclareDocumentCommand{\contentsobject}{mmmmmmm} {\UseInstance{contentsobject}{#3}{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}} \DeclareDocumentCommand{\JKtableofcontents}{}{ \UseInstance{processcontents}{tableofcontents} } \newcounter{contentscounter} \DeclareDocumentCommand{\addcontentsobject}{mmmm}{ \stepcounter{contentscounter} %or refstep? \addtocontents{toc}{ \contentsobject{\number\c@contentscounter}{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{}{\thepage}}} \endinput ============================== xtitletoc.sty ends 20-Dec-1999 21:28:05-GMT,3140;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16013 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:28:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA27689; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:27:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA13741; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:26:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446958 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:26:20 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13732 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:26:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (trudi.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.159]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA27654 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:27:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin412.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.112]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11770 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:27:06 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00573; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:51:52 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199912201251.NAA09941@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <199912202051.VAA00573@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:51:52 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: A couple of TOC templates (1) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199912201251.NAA09941@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Javier Bezos writes: > ps. As I'm gettting more and more involved in an Omega project, > I'm not sure if I can continue with this discussion. I will try it, > anyway. hope you will be able to. i managed to put your files together again and except for \tracingcode being undefined they run well. have to sudy them a bit further but i was wondering about the paragraph action which seems to be intended to run the whole set of all entries in a single paragraph. now in my (unfinshed implementation i tried to allow for mixing both style, e.g. chapter vertical and all things below it in a paragraph). have you considered this as an option? frank 21-Dec-1999 1:55:14-GMT,12411;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21868 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:55:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA19217; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 02:54:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA02669; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 02:53:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445381 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 02:53:24 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA02658 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 02:53:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp01.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA19197 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 02:54:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.78.82] ([195.5.78.82]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Nov 19 1999 19:47:43) with SMTP id FN1IB701.Y2T for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:49:55 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199912210154.CAA19197@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:49:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: A couple of TOC templates (2) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L % General commands % A level register. Explicit numbers because they are % used in csnames. \let\ttl@prefix\@empty \def\ttl@setlevels#1#2{% \count@=#1 \@for\ttl@a:=#2\do{% \expandafter\edef\csname ttll@\ttl@prefix\ttl@a\endcsname {\the\count@}% \advance\count@\@ne}} \def\ttl@levels{{-1}{part,chapter,section,subsection,subsubsection,% paragraph,subparagraph}} \@ifundefined{chapter} {\def\ttl@levels{{\z@}{part,section,subsection,% subsubsection,paragraph,subparagraph}}} {\def\ttl@levels{{\m@ne}{part,chapter,section,subsection, subsubsection,paragraph,subparagraph}}} \expandafter\ttl@setlevels\ttl@levels % We make sure that a series of * entries are finished and % that a \titlecontents in the middle of a document is % written to the right file. \newcommand\contentsuse[2]{% \expandafter\def\csname ttlx@#1\endcsname{#2}% \expandafter\def\csname ttll@#1\endcsname{-1000}% \AtEndDocument{\addtocontents{#2}{\protect\ttl@finish}}} \contentsuse{figure}{lof} \contentsuse{table}{lot} \AtEndDocument{\addtocontents{toc}{\protect\ttl@finish}} \def\ttl@finish{% \ifttl@fromblock \csname ttle@\ttl@lasttoc\endcsname \@@par \endgroup \global\ttl@fromblockfalse \fi} % There is a further tag % ttle@: ending punctuacion % % The two basic commands: \newcommand\contentsmargin[1][\z@]{% \def\ttl@corr{#1}\def\@pnumwidth} \newcommand\ttl@margin[2][\z@]{% \def\ttl@corr{#1}% \advance\rightskip-\@pnumwidth\relax \advance\rightskip#1\relax \def\@pnumwidth{#2}} %% titlecontents deals with concepts, not commands; hence no escape \newcommand\titlecontents{% \@ifstar{\ttl@contents{\z@}} {\ttl@contents{\@ne}}} \def\ttl@contents#1#2{% \@ifnextchar[{\ttl@contents@x{#1}{#2}} {\PackageError{titletoc}{Unimplemented}% {The optional argument is currently mandatory}}}% \def\ttl@contents@x#1#2[#3]#4#5#6#7{% \@ifnextchar[{\ttl@contents@i{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}}% {\ttl@contents@i{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}[]}} \def\ttl@contents@i#1#2#3#4#5#6#7[#8]{% \ifcase#1 \expandafter\@firstoftwo \else \expandafter\@secondoftwo \fi {\@ifnextchar[{\ttl@contents@ii{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}{#8}} {\ttl@contents@ii{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}{#8}[]}} {\ttl@contents@ii{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}{#8}[]}} \def\ttl@contents@ii#1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8[#9]{% \expandafter\def\csname l@#2\endcsname {\ttl@tocentry{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{{#5}{#6}}{#7}{#8}} \expandafter\def\csname ttle@#2\endcsname{#9}} \begingroup \catcode`\-=12\catcode`\>=12 \gdef\ttl@strip#1->#2\@@#3{\def#3{#2}} \endgroup \AtBeginDocument{% \let\ttl@change\ttl@contents@ii \def\ttl@contents@ii#1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8[#9]{% \def\ttl@a{\ttl@change{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}{#8}[#9]} \expandafter\ttl@strip\meaning\ttl@a\@@\ttl@a \addtocontents {\expandafter\ifx\csname ttlx@#2\endcsname\relax toc% \else \csname ttlx@#2\endcsname \fi}% {\ttl@a}}} % Printing the toc entry % ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \def\ttl@lasttoc{figure} % An inital dummy assignment % When \contentsafter is called \ttl@b is the current level and % \ttl@a the previous level. \newcommand\contentsafter[4]{% \count@\ttl@a \advance\count@-\ttl@b \advance\count@\@ne \ifcase\count@#1\or#2\or#3\or#4\else \PackageError{titletoc}{Unknown separation punctuation} {Punctuation for separating levels in blocked\MessageBreak toc entries are defined for the most important\MessageBreak cases only. See manual for further information}% \fi} % 1 ifblock, 2 sect name, 3 left, 4 before, % 5 {with}{without}, 6 filler/page, 7 after 8 title 9 pageno \def\ttl@tocentry#1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{% \edef\ttl@b{\csname ttll@#2\endcsname}% \ifnum\ttl@b>\c@tocdepth\else \ifnum\ttl@b<\ttl@toctop\else \edef\ttl@a{\csname ttll@\ttl@lasttoc\endcsname}% % \gdef\thecontentspage{#9}% Moved to templates % \global\let\thecontentslabel\@empty % \ttl@numsecfalse % \sbox\z@{% Unused box. It just catch the numberline % \def\numberline##1{\global\ttl@numsectrue\gdef\thecontentslabel{##1}}% % #8}% \ifttl@fromblock \ifcase#1\relax {\ttl@lastafter}% \else {\csname ttle@\ttl@lasttoc\endcsname}% \@@par \endgroup \@firstoftwo \fi \else \begingroup \ifnum\ttl@b>\ttl@a \nobreak \else\ifnum\ttl@b<\ttl@a \addpenalty{\@secpenalty}% \else \addpenalty{\z@}% \fi\fi \ifcase#1\relax\else\interlinepenalty\@M\fi \parindent\z@ \setlength\leftskip{#3}% \let\contentsmargin\ttl@margin \def\ttl@makeline##1{##1}% #4% \setlength\rightskip{\@pnumwidth}% \addtolength{\parfillskip}{-\ttl@corr}% \addtolength{\rightskip}{\ttl@corr}% \vskip \z@ \@plus .1\p@ \nobreak \let\ttl@leaders\leaders \fi \def\numberline##1{\ignorespaces}% \ifttl@numsec {\leavevmode\strut\@firstoftwo#5{#8}\strut\kern\z@}% \else {\leavevmode\strut\@secondoftwo#5{#8}\strut\kern\z@}% \fi {#6}% \ifcase#1\relax \global\ttl@fromblocktrue \protected@xdef\ttl@lastafter{#7}% \else \@@par \nobreak #7% \endgroup \global\ttl@fromblockfalse \fi \xdef\ttl@lasttoc{#2}% \fi \fi \ignorespaces} \ExecuteOptions{leftlabels,nodotinlabels} \ProcessOptions % [...] \def\ttl@toctop{-1000} %[...] \@tempskipa\@pnumwidth \edef\@pnumwidth{\the\@tempskipa} \advance\@tempskipa-\@tocrmarg \edef\ttl@corr{-\the\@tempskipa} % Now the templates: \IgnoreWhiteSpace \newdimen\@tempdimd \newdimen\@tempdime \DeclareTemplateType{contentsobject}{7} \DeclareTemplateType{processcontents}{0} \def\comma{,} \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{JB1}{7}{ pre-action =f0 [] \COpre@action, post-action =f0 [] \COpost@action, decls =f0 [] \COobject@decl, left-margin =l [15pt] \@tempdimd, right-margin =l [\@pnumwidth] \@tempdime, right-adjust =l [\ttl@corr] \@tempdimb, label-format =f0 [\thecontentslabel] \COnumber@format, label-width =l [15pt] \@tempdima, title-format =f1 [#1] \COtitle@format, title-format-nolabel =f1 [\COtitle@format{#1}] \COtitle@format@nolbl, page-format =f1 [#1] \COpnum@format, leaders-text =f0 [.] \COleaders@action, leaders-width =l [1pc] \@tempdimc } {\IfNoValueTF{#4} {\let\thecontentslabel\@empty \ttl@numsecfalse} {\gdef\thecontentslabel{#4} \ttl@numsectrue} \gdef\thecontentspage{#7} \DoParameterAssignments \ttl@tocentry {\@ne} {#3} {\@tempdimd} {\contentsmargin[\@tempdimb]{\@tempdime} \COpre@action \COobject@decl} { {\contentslabel[\COnumber@format]{\@tempdima}\COtitle@format} {\hspace*{-\@tempdima}\COtitle@format@nolbl} } {\titlerule*[\@tempdimc]{\COleaders@action} \contentspage[\COpnum@format{\thecontentspage}]} {\COpost@action} {#5} {}} \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{JB2}{7}{ pre-action =f0 [] \COpre@action, post-action =f0 [] \COpost@action, decls =f0 [] \COobject@decl, left-margin =l [15pt] \@tempdimd, right-margin =l [\@pnumwidth] \@tempdime, label-format =f0 [\thecontentslabel.\ ] \COnumber@format, title-format =f1 [#1] \COtitle@format, title-format-nolabel =f1 [\COtitle@format{#1}] \COtitle@format@nolbl, page-format =f1 [{,~#1}] \COpnum@format, punct-sep =f0 [;\ ] \COpunct@sep, punct-end =f0 [.] \COpunct@end, punct-sup =f0 [;\ ] \COpunct@sup, punct-sup-sup =f0 [;\ ] \COpunct@supsup, punct-sub =f0 [;\ ] \COpunct@sub } {\IfNoValueTF{#4} {\let\thecontentslabel\@empty \ttl@numsecfalse} {\gdef\thecontentslabel{#4} \ttl@numsectrue} \gdef\thecontentspage{#7} \DoParameterAssignments \expandafter\protected@xdef\csname ttle@#3\endcsname{\COpunct@end} \ttl@tocentry {\z@} {#3} {\@tempdimd} {\contentsmargin[\@tempdimb]{\@tempdime} \COpre@action \COobject@decl} { {\COnumber@format\COtitle@format} {\COtitle@format@nolbl} } {\COpnum@format{\thecontentspage}} {\protect\contentsafter{\COpunct@sub}{\COpunct@sep} {\COpunct@sup}{\COpunct@supsup}} {#5} {}} \DeclareTemplate{processcontents}{JK}{0}{ start-action =f0 [\relax] \COstart@action, end-action =f0 [\relax] \COend@action, file-name =n [\jobname] \COfile@name, file-extension =n \COextension, contents-depth =c [2] \c@tocdepth, collection-id =n [] \COcollection@id, heading =f0 [\section*]\COheading, %actully use some instance name =n [\contentsname] \COname, header-format =f0 [\MakeUpperCase] \COheader@format } { \DoParameterAssignments \COheading{\COname \@mkboth{\CO@header@format\COname}{\CO@header@format\COname}} \begingroup \UseCollection{contentsobject}{\COcollection@id} %Is this wrong? \makeatletter \COstart@action \@input{\COfile@name.\COextension} \if@filesw \expandafter\newwrite\csname tf@\COextension\endcsname \immediate\openout \csname tf@\COextension\endcsname \COfile@name.\COextension\relax \fi \@nobreakfalse \endgroup } \DeclareInstance{processcontents}{tableofcontents}{JK}{ file-extension = toc } \DeclareDocumentCommand{\contentsobject}{mmmmmmm} {\UseInstance{contentsobject}{#3}{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{#5}{#6}{#7}} \DeclareDocumentCommand{\JKtableofcontents}{}{ \UseInstance{processcontents}{tableofcontents} } \newcounter{contentscounter} \DeclareDocumentCommand{\addcontentsobject}{mmmm}{ \stepcounter{contentscounter} %or refstep? \addtocontents{toc}{ \contentsobject{\number\c@contentscounter}{#1}{#2}{#3}{#4}{}{\thepage}}} \endinput ============================== xtitletoc.sty ends 21-Dec-1999 8:04:40-GMT,2701;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA28411 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 01:04:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA06657; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:59:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA22035; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:56:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 445458 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:56:36 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22018 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:56:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp02.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA06436 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:57:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.71.195] ([195.5.71.195]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FN2ZDU00.Z0L for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:56:18 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199912210757.IAA06436@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:56:18 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Re: A couple of TOC templates (1) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L (At last...) >hope you will be able to. i managed to put your files together again and >except for \tracingcode being undefined they run well. Ooops... That's a macro of my own for debugging. Remove it, please. >have to sudy them a bit further but i was wondering about the paragraph >action >which seems to be intended to run the whole set of all entries in a single >paragraph. Not necessary. Just define, say, section to be of style JB1, and subsection of style JB2. That's all. If there are no new bugs, that should work. \bye Javier 27-Dec-1999 21:32:12-GMT,3896;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05510 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 14:32:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28668; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:26:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA01466; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:24:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 447299 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:24:57 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01455 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:24:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.57]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28609 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:25:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29611 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:25:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (dialin412.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.112]) by mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA12900 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:25:47 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00349; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:49:16 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199912210757.IAA06436@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <199912272049.VAA00349@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:49:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: A couple of TOC templates (1) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199912210757.IAA06436@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Javier, > >have to study them a bit further but i was wondering about the paragraph > >action > >which seems to be intended to run the whole set of all entries in a single > >paragraph. > > Not necessary. Just define, say, section to be of style JB1, and > subsection of style JB2. That's all. If there are no new bugs, that > should work. I tried that after Xmas but not with much success. would you care to provide us with a (working:-) example? perhaps i'm simply to stupid to get it right. what i'm looking for is something like this 1 Historical outline 12 origins 12 the first printed book in the west 14 from platin to bodoni 18 the nineteenth centrury 22 the twentieth century 28 2 Studio and equipment 34 furniture 36 lightning 37 basic equipment 37 stationary 38 special equipment 39 reference material 40 3 Legibility 42 ... and so forth (the above is from the The Thames and Hudson Manual of typography by Ruari McLean) best frank 28-Dec-1999 20:32:33-GMT,4101;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29357 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:32:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA20735; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:25:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA04845; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:23:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 447308 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:23:58 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04838 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:23:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp02.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA20668 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:24:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.72.128] ([195.5.72.128]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Nov 19 1999 19:47:43) with SMTP id FNGWNO05.JD3 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:23:48 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199912282024.VAA20668@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:23:46 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Re: A couple of TOC templates (1) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L >Javier, > > > >have to study them a bit further but i was wondering about the paragraph > > >action > > >which seems to be intended to run the whole set of all entries in a >single > > >paragraph. > > > > Not necessary. Just define, say, section to be of style JB1, and > > subsection of style JB2. That's all. If there are no new bugs, that > > should work. > >I tried that after Xmas but not with much success. would you care to provide >us with a (working:-) example? perhaps i'm simply to stupid to get it right. !Ah! The sychronizations problems which I thought I solved. :-( That's closely related to a problem with templates which I explained in a previous message-- the fact that the parameters are used with an intermediate: I then said: >The template way is (very, very simplified) > >\def\defineit#1{% > \def\@it{#1} > \def\it{\@it}} > >This extra level has many implications, because we cannot >define \it literally (ie, exactly as given by the argument) Take the following declarations: \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{section}{JB1}{ % the usual way ... irrelevant} \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{subsection}{JB2}{ % grouped ... irrelevant } The very first subsection after a section begins a group, which is not ended until the very first section after a series of sections comes--the \endgroup is *in the section code* and the attributes for it are deleted! That does not happen in the original implementation because parameters are used literally (and hence never deleted). In its very, very simplified equivalent: \def\defineit#1{% \def\@it{#1} \endgroup \def\it{\@it}} I cannot figure out how to fix that with reworking a lot of code, but perhaps redefining all of parameters to itself but globally could work. (I mean \global\let\COtitle@format\COtitle@format \global\let\COobject@decl\COobject@decl and so on.) May attributes be assigned globally in templates? \bye Javier 29-Dec-1999 4:30:31-GMT,13497;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA07696 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:30:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA10292; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 04:52:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA22160; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 04:49:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446488 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 04:49:46 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA22152 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 04:49:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from downtown.oche.de (downtown.oche.de [194.94.253.3]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA10245 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 04:50:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from corona.oche.de (uucp@localhost) by downtown.oche.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id EAA13371 for urz.uni-heidelberg.de!LaTeX-L; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 04:42:01 +0100 Received: by corona.oche.de (wUUCP 1.10) id <1k21@corona.oche.de>; Tue, 28 Dec 99 21:34:00 CET X-Mailer: AmiGate 1.6 (13.11.95) Message-ID: <87a2301a@corona.oche.de> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:09:43 CET Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Achim Blumensath Subject: theorem templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L Hello, I've updated my templates to the latest AMS-LaTeX release and wrote some documentation. Achim ________________________________________________________________________ _ | \_____/ | // Achim Blumensath | \ _ \O/ \___/\ | // blume@corona.oche.de |-< /_\ =o= \ /\ \| \X/ (p^2 - m^2)\psi = 0 |_/ \_ /"\ o----| ____________________________________________________________________\___| === xtheorem.dtx === % \iffalse %% %% (C) Copyright 1999 Achim Blumensath %% All rights reserved. %% %% Not for general distribution. In its present form it is not allowed %% to put this package onto CD or an archive without consulting the %% the authors. %% %<*dtx> \ProvidesFile{xtheorem.dtx} % %\NeedsTeXFormat{LaTeX2e} %\ProvidesPackage{xtheorem} %\ProvidesFile{xtheorem.drv} % \fi % \ProvidesFile{xtheorem.dtx} [1999/12/19 v0.1 theorem styles] % % \iffalse %<*driver> \documentclass{ltxdoc} \usepackage{textcomp} % \usepackage{xparse,xlists,xlists-samples} % \usepackage{ldcdoc} % next three definitions are big hacks to run the file % without the above packages % \newcommand\NoValue{\texttt{\textbackslash NoValue}} \newenvironment{TemplateInterfaceDescription}[1] {\subsection{The Template Type `#1'}% \begingroup\description \def\TemplateArgument##1##2{\item[Arg: ##1]##2\par}% \def\TemplateSemantics{\enddescription\endgroup \subsubsection*{Semantics:}}% } {\par\bigskip} \newenvironment{TemplateDescription}[2] {\subsection{The Template `#2' (type #1)}% \subsubsection*{Attributes:}% \begingroup\description \def\TemplateKey##1##2##3##4{\item[##1 (##2)]##3% \ifx\TemplateKey##4\TemplateKey\else % \hskip0ptplus3em\penalty-500\hskip 0pt plus 1filll Default:~##4% \hfill\penalty500\hbox{}\hfill Default:~##4% \nobreak\hskip-\parfillskip\hskip0pt\relax \fi \par}% \def\TemplateSemantics{\enddescription\endgroup \subsubsection*{Semantics \& Comments:}}% } {\par\bigskip} \begin{document} \DocInput{xtheorem.dtx} \end{document} % % \fi % % % \GetFileInfo{xtheorem.dtx} % % \title{The \textsf{xtheorem} package\thanks{This file % has version number \fileversion, last % revised \filedate.}} % \author{AB} % \date{\filedate} % % \maketitle % % \tableofcontents % % \begin{abstract} % This is a conversion of the AMS theorem classes to the template % system. Only the interface was changed, the internals still use % \LaTeXe\ commands. % \end{abstract} % % \section{Interfaces} % % \begin{TemplateInterfaceDescription}{theoremstyle} % % \TemplateArgument{1} % {Text of the number of the theorem (e.g., \verb|A.1|), or % \NoValue\ to indicate that the theorem is unnumbered.} % % \TemplateArgument{2} % {Name of the theorem (e.g. \verb|Theorem|, \verb|Lemma|).} % % \TemplateArgument{3} % {Additional note (e.g. \verb|see [12]|), or \NoValue.} % % \TemplateSemantics % % This template starts a new environment, typesets the head of a % theorem, and sets fonts for the body of the theorem. The % environment is ended by an \verb|\@endtheorem| command. % % If the first argument is given, it is printed as the number part. % The second argument contains the name of the theorem, and the % third one may contain an additional note. % % For instance, the arguments \verb|2.1|, \verb|Lemma|, and % \verb|Rabin~1960| could produce the output % % \medskip % \noindent\textbf{Lemma 2.1 }(Rabin 1960)\textbf. % % \medskip\noindent % where the following text is set in italic. % % \end{TemplateInterfaceDescription} % % % \begin{TemplateDescription}{theoremstyle}{std} % % \TemplateKey{pre-skip}{l} % {Skip above the theorem.} % {|topsep|} % \TemplateKey{post-skip}{l} % {Skip below the theorem.} % {|topsep|} % \TemplateKey{body-style}{f0} % {Commands to be executed before the body of the theorem in % order to set fonts, etc.} % {italic} % \TemplateKey{head-style}{f0} % {Commands to set the font of the head.} % {bold} % \TemplateKey{note-style}{f0} % {Commands to set the font of the note.} % {medium upright font} % \TemplateKey{head-punct}{f0} % {Text after the head.} % {|.|} % \TemplateKey{head-format}{f3} % {Format of the head.} % {Name Number (Note)} % \TemplateKey{head-indent}{l} % {Indent of the head.} % {none} % \TemplateKey{head-sep}{l} % {Space after the head.} % {5pt $\pm$ 1pt} % \TemplateKey{post-head-action}{f0} % {Command to be executed after the head (e.g., a line break).} % {none} % % \TemplateSemantics % This are all parameters provided by the AMS package, except `swaphead' % which can be simulated by \verb|head-format|. % % \end{TemplateDescription} % % \paragraph{Problem.} % The current solution for `head-format' is very clumsy. Perhaps it would % be better to pass just the name of a template which does the layout % instead of the actual code. % % \medskip % \DescribeMacro\newtheorem % The \verb|\newtheorem| command defines a new type of theorem. It takes % the following arguments: % % \medskip % \verb|\newtheorem|[|*|]$\langle$style$\rangle$\relax % $\langle$name$\rangle$[share counter]$\langle$label$\rangle$\relax % [count relative] % % \medskip\noindent % and defines an environment named `name'. The arguments have the % following meanings: % \begin{description} % \item[|*|] If present the theorem is unnumbered, otherwise it is % numbered. % \item[style] The name of an instace of the `theoremstyle' template % which is used to typeset the theorem. % \item[name] The name of the new environment. % \item[share counter] (optional) The label of another defined theorem. % If present both kinds of theorem share a common counter. % \item[label] The name of the theorem which should appear in its head. % \item[count relative] If present the counter is reset to 1 everything % the counter with this name is changed (e.g., |section| or |chapter|). % \end{description} % % For instance, the following definitions create environments named % |Thm|, |Prop|, |Lem|, |Cor|, |Def|, |Rem|, and |Exam|. The first % five share a common counter which is relative to the current % section, the last two are unnumbered. % \begin{verbatim} % \newtheorem{plain}{Thm}{Theorem}[section] % \newtheorem{plain}{Prop}[Thm]{Proposition} % \newtheorem{plain}{Lem}[Thm]{Lemma} % \newtheorem{plain}{Cor}[Thm]{Corollary} % \newtheorem{definition}{Def}[Thm]{Definition} % \newtheorem*{remark}{Rem}{Remark} % \newtheorem*{remark}{Exam}{Example} % \end{verbatim} % % \section{Implementation} % % \begin{macrocode} %<*package> \RequirePackage{xparse} \RequirePackage{template} \IgnoreWhiteSpace % \end{macrocode} % % \begin{macrocode} \DeclareTemplateType{theoremstyle}{3} \newskip\TSpre@skip \newskip\TSpost@skip \newdimen\TShead@indent \newskip\TShead@sep \DeclareTemplate{theoremstyle}{std}{3} { pre-skip =l [\DelayEvaluation{\topsep}] \TSpre@skip, post-skip =l [\DelayEvaluation{\topsep}] \TSpost@skip, body-style =f0 [\itshape] \TSbody@style, head-style =f0 [\bfseries] \TShead@style, note-style =f0 [\fontseries\mddefault\upshape] \TSnote@style, head-punct =f0 [.] \TShead@punct, head-format =f3 [\IfNoValueF{#1}{#1\IfNoValueF{#2}{\space}} \IfNoValueF{#2}{\textup{#2}} \IfNoValueF{#3}{\space{\TSnote@style(#3)}}] \TShead@format, head-indent =l [0pt] \TShead@indent, head-sep =l [5pt plus 1pt minus 1pt] \TShead@sep, post-head-action =f0 [] \TSpost@head@action } { \DoParameterAssignments \ifhmode\unskip\unskip\par\fi \normalfont \trivlist \let\thmheadnl\relax \@topsep\TSpre@skip \@topsepadd\TSpost@skip \IfNoValueF{#1} {\refstepcounter{#1}} \deferred@thm@head{ \TShead@style \hskip\TShead@indent \IfNoValueTF{#1} {\TShead@format{#2}{#1}{#3}} {\TShead@format{#2}{\csname the#1\endcsname}{#3}} \TShead@punct \TSpost@head@action \hskip\TShead@sep } \TSbody@style \ignorespaces } % \end{macrocode} % These functions are used by the template above. They are copied % straight away from amsclass.dtx. % \begin{macrocode} \let\adjust@parskip@nobreak=\@nbitem % \end{macrocode} % % \begin{macrocode} \newtoks\dth@everypar \dth@everypar={ \@minipagefalse \global\@newlistfalse \if@inlabel \global\@inlabelfalse \begingroup \setbox\z@\lastbox \ifvoid\z@ \kern-\itemindent \fi \endgroup \unhbox\@labels \fi \if@nobreak \@nobreakfalse \clubpenalty\@M \else \clubpenalty\@clubpenalty \everypar{} \fi } % \end{macrocode} % % \begin{macrocode} \def\deferred@thm@head#1{% \if@inlabel \indent \par \fi % eject a section head if one is pending \if@nobreak \adjust@parskip@nobreak \else \addpenalty\@beginparpenalty \addvspace\@topsep \addvspace{-\parskip}% \fi \global\@inlabeltrue \everypar\dth@everypar \sbox\@labels{\normalfont#1}% \ignorespaces } % \end{macrocode} % The usual styles `plain', `definition', and `remark'. % \begin{macrocode} \DeclareInstance{theoremstyle}{plain}{std}{} \DeclareInstance{theoremstyle}{definition}{std} { body-style = \normalfont } \DeclareInstance{theoremstyle}{remark}{std} { pre-skip = \DelayEvaluation{0.5\topsep}, post-skip = \DelayEvaluation{0.5\topsep}, body-style = \normalfont, head-style = \itshape } % \end{macrocode} % The command to end a theorem. % \begin{macrocode} \def\@endtheorem{\endtrivlist\@endpefalse } % \end{macrocode} % % |newtheorem| just checks all cases and defines the appropriate % environment. % \begin{macrocode} \DeclareDocumentCommand{\newtheorem}{smmomo} { \expandafter\@ifdefinable\csname #3\endcsname { \global\expandafter\let\csname end#3\endcsname\@endtheorem \IfBooleanTF{#1} { \expandafter\DeclareDocumentCommand\csname #3\endcsname{o} {\UseInstance{theoremstyle}{#2}{\NoValue}{#5}{##1}} } { \IfNoValueTF{#4} { \IfNoValueTF{#6} { \newcounter{#3} } { \newcounter{#3}[#6] \expandafter\xdef\csname the#3\endcsname{ \expandafter\noexpand\csname the#6\endcsname \@thmcountersep\@thmcounter{#3}} } \expandafter\DeclareDocumentCommand\csname #3\endcsname{o} {\UseInstance{theoremstyle}{#2}{#3}{#5}{##1}} } { \@ifundefined{c@#4} { \@nocounterr{#4} } { \expandafter\xdef\csname the#3\endcsname{ \expandafter\noexpand\csname the#4\endcsname} \expandafter\DeclareDocumentCommand\csname #3\endcsname{o} {\UseInstance{theoremstyle}{#2}{#4}{#5}{##1}} } } } } } % \end{macrocode} % % \begin{macrocode} \endinput % \end{macrocode} % % \begin{macrocode} % % \end{macrocode} % % % \Finale % \endinput 29-Dec-1999 11:24:45-GMT,4060;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA14476 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 04:24:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA00902; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:57:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA07234; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:56:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446638 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:56:12 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07227 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:56:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp02.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA00842 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:57:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from [212.59.206.64] ([212.59.206.64]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Nov 19 1999 19:47:43) with SMTP id FNI11G05.JGY for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:56:04 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199912291057.LAA00842@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:56:02 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Re: A couple of TOC templates (1) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L (Continues.) Replace the body code in JB1 (but not in JB2) by: {\IfNoValueTF{#4} {\let\thecontentslabel\@empty \ttl@numsecfalse} {\gdef\thecontentslabel{#4} \ttl@numsectrue} \gdef\thecontentspage{#7} \DoParameterAssignments \global\let\COpost@action\COpost@action \global\let\COobject@decl\COobject@decl \global\@tempdimd\@tempdimd \global\@tempdime\@tempdime \global\@tempdimb\@tempdimb \global\let\COnumber@format\COnumber@format \global\@tempdima\@tempdima \global\let\COtitle@format\COtitle@format \global\let\COtitle@format@nolbl\COtitle@format@nolbl \global\let\COpnum@format\COpnum@format \global\let\COleaders@action\COleaders@action \global\@tempdimc\@tempdimc \ttl@tocentry {\@ne} {#3} {\@tempdimd} {\contentsmargin[\@tempdimb]{\@tempdime} \COpre@action \COobject@decl} { {\contentslabel[\COnumber@format]{\@tempdima}\COtitle@format} {\hspace*{-\@tempdima}\COtitle@format@nolbl} } {\titlerule*[\@tempdimc]{\COleaders@action} \contentspage[\COpnum@format{\thecontentspage}]} {\COpost@action} {#5} {}} As you can see, the code is the same but with a series of global assignments right after \DoParameterAssignments. Here is an example: \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{section}{JB1}{ pre-action = \DelayEvaluation{\addvspace{1pc plus 1pt}}, right-adjust = 3pt, title-format = \textbf{#1}, label-format = \textbf{\thecontentslabel}, left-margin = \DelayEvaluation{2.5em}, label-width = \DelayEvaluation{2.5em}, page-format = \textbf{\hfil#1}, leaders-text = } \DeclareInstance{contentsobject}{subsection}{JB2}{ pre-action = \addvspace{3pt plus .2pt}, decls = \itshape, left-margin = \DelayEvaluation{2.5em}, punct-sep = {;\ }, punct-end = . } \bye Javier 29-Dec-1999 15:30:49-GMT,3234;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18412 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:30:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA21341; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:56:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA20693; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:55:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446884 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:55:23 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20681 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:55:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from gate.eds.de (gate.eds.de [205.191.194.5]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA21290 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:56:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com by gate.eds.de with SMTP id PAA13774 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for ); Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:55:59 +0100 Received: by n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA014229381; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:56:21 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199912282024.VAA20668@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14442.8468.706360.623515@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:56:20 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: A couple of TOC templates (1) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199912282024.VAA20668@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> > I cannot figure out how to fix that with reworking a lot of code, > but perhaps redefining all of parameters to itself but globally > could work. (I mean > > \global\let\COtitle@format\COtitle@format > \global\let\COobject@decl\COobject@decl > > and so on.) May attributes be assigned globally in templates? attributes may be assigned globally in template. one of the last additions to the inferface before we made it publically available for testing was the + sytnax: foo =+l \foovar sets the variable \foobar (which should be a register in the above case) globally a separate question is whether or not one should have such global assignments in the first place. they have their dangers as we all know. but on the other hand it is sometimes needed. guess we should keep in mind that some further thoughts might be in order. frank 29-Dec-1999 22:47:04-GMT,3588;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26837 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:47:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA24924; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:36:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA16471; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:35:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 447178 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:35:19 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16464 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:35:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.56]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA24831 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:36:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07155 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:36:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (dialin368.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.68]) by mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA28713 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:36:16 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00362; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:03:31 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199912291644.RAA00909@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <199912292203.XAA00362@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:03:31 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: A couple of TOC templates (1) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199912291644.RAA00909@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> > [It is surprising how one is unable to find something, except when > one has got already the answer. :-) ] yes, isn't it? and this after all the nights i spend on writing that .dtx file docu :-) > Well, forget my previous message, and change istead the attribute > declaratios: > > \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{JB1}{7}{ > pre-action =+f0 [] \COpre@action, > ... tried that and will send sample instance file in a separate message. it does work now but i'm still a bit worried about the mixture of global and local settings. especially code like > label-width =+l [15pt] \@tempdima, seems dangerous since other code might rely on the fact that \@tempdima is a local register (bad coding but ...) anyway with a few exceptions it does now seem to work. frank 29-Dec-1999 22:47:25-GMT,9616;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26860 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:47:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA24950; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:36:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA16549; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:35:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 447182 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:35:43 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16479 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:35:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.56]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA24843 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:36:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07160 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:36:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (dialin368.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.68]) by mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA28717 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:36:17 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00366; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:07:16 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f References: <199912291644.RAA00909@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: <199912292207.XAA00366@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:07:16 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: A new set of instances for Javier's toc templates To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199912291644.RAA00909@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> \iffalse This file can be run straight through TeX (with some preconditions :-) The example below assumes that xtitletoc.sty has been updated as suggested by Javier, i.e., all keys in JB1 are assigned using + syntax (sorry about the syntax it was added after the rest and in a way guided by the coding: i know that =+ has some meaning in other diciplines (and i don't like it either too much); so any body having a better suggestion for a expressing global assignment ...) comments on the templates: - i was unable to make the runin paragraph part being ragged right (haven't looked too closely at the macros but i guess this is due to using a main body macro which always sets special paragraph values (like good old \@dottedcontentsline)) - the unnumbered section "Heading two as section" suddenly does get a number (more exactly it gets the number of the last numbered contentsline) --- bug due to the (sometimes) global assignments? - also the section "Studio and equipment" lost its number for probably the same reason --- to late tonight for me to debug that - i had some trouble getting the punct-... keys right the first time. this might mean i'm stupid, but perhaps some other names might help. - would it be necessary/helpful to have something comparable to punct-end but for the very first entry? - what about post-action for a paragraph group? - it is a bit of a nuisance that one can't say decls = \itshape but rather has to repeat this for title/label/page formatting - how would one specify different vertical spacing between a) section, , section b) section, para-block with subsections, , section as far as i can see there is no way, unless one extends something like pre-action to get access to the level information (like it is currently hidden in \contentsafter) - the file contains a lot of bells and wistles which are most likely a direct copy from the original package (including options to set certain things). question: is a mixture of such layout facilities good or bad? or in other words how much modification of template code via external settings should be provided (normally/always/...)? is it something that should get a suggestion, or is this something really up to template writers? for example the line label-format = \textsc{\thecontentslabel}\ , below seems rather strange to me (after having written a lot of templates in one style) as i would expect to get the label in #1 rather than having to provide a fixed name --- why then #1 in the page-format? I'm not saying that i'm right here, but i would like to invite comments (perhaps that particular example is bad as counters in LaTeX are sort of strange beasts anyway with their internal repesentation forms etc) anyway enjoy --- playing with the templates was fun, thanks Javier frank \fi %========================== xtitletoc-test2.tex begins \documentclass{article} \usepackage{xtitletoc} \IgnoreWhiteSpace %======================== \DeclareCollectionInstance{mixed}{contentsobject}{section}{JB1} { pre-action = \addvspace{1pc plus 1pt}, right-adjust = 3pt, title-format = \textbf{#1}, label-format = \llap{\textbf{\thecontentslabel}\qquad}, left-margin = 0pt, label-width = 0pt, page-format = \textbf{\hfil#1}, leaders-text = } \DeclareCollectionInstance{mixed}{contentsobject}{subsection}{JB2} { pre-action = \vspace*{3pt}, decls = \raggedright, right-margin = 60pt, title-format = \textsc{#1}, label-format = \textsc{\thecontentslabel}\ , page-format = {,\nobreakspace#1}, % default is % wrong! ~ is % space after \IgnoreWhiteSpace punct-sub = \ (, punct-sep = \quad\textbullet\quad, punct-end = } \DeclareCollectionInstance{mixed}{contentsobject}{subsubsection}{JB2} { title-format = \textit{#1}, label-format = , page-format = \nobreakspace\textit{#1}, punct-sup = )\quad\textbullet\quad , punct-sep = ;\ , punct-end = ) } \begin{document} \newcommand\testtoc[1]{ \section*{THE TEST: #1} \contentsobject {1}{1}{section}{1}{Historical outline}{}{12} \contentsobject {2}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue}{origins}{}{12} \contentsobject {3}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue}{the first printed book in the west}{}{14} \contentsobject {4}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue}{from platin to bodoni}{}{18} \contentsobject {5}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue}{the nineteenth centrury}{}{22} \contentsobject {7}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue}{the twentieth century}{}{28} \contentsobject {8}{1}{section}{2}{Studio and equipment}{}{34} \contentsobject {9}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue}{furniture}{}{36} \contentsobject {10}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue}{lightning}{}{37} \contentsobject {11}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue}{basic equipment}{}{37} \contentsobject {12}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue}{stationary}{}{38} \contentsobject {13}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue}{special equipment}{}{39} \contentsobject {14}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue}{reference material}{}{40} %% some old stuff \contentsobject {1}{1}{section}{1}{A first section}{}{1} \contentsobject {2}{2}{subsection}{1.1}{A first subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {3}{2}{subsection}{1.2}{A second subsection with an awful long title: some text or other to get us going right? awful long title: some text or other to get us going right? awful long title: some text or other to get us going right? awful long title: some text or other to get us going right?}{}{1} \contentsobject {4}{3}{subsubsection}{1.2.1}{A direct subsubsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {2}{2}{subsection}{1.3}{A final subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {5}{1}{section}{\NoValue }{Heading two as section}{}{1} \contentsobject {6}{2}{subsection}{1.3}{With a direct subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {7}{3}{subsubsection}{1.3.1}{And some subsubsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {8}{3}{subsubsection}{1.3.2}{And some subsubsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {13}{1}{section}{2}{And another section}{}{1} \contentsobject {14}{2}{subsection}{2.1}{that has a subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {14}{2}{subsection}{2.1}{that has a subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {14}{2}{subsection}{2.1}{that has a subsection}{}{1} \contentsobject {15}{1}{section}{3}{A test}{}{2} \contentsobject {16}{2}{subsection}{\NoValue }{with an unnumbered subsection}{}{2} \csname ttl@finish\endcsname %% Added by titletoc to the toc file } \setcounter{tocdepth}{3} \UseCollection{contentsobject}{mixed} \testtoc{3} % to add another toc example (chose a collection name FOO) % add some CollectionInstances above and do: %\UseCollection{contentsobject}{FOO} %\testtoc{3} \stop ============================ xtitletoc-test2.tex ends 29-Dec-1999 17:17:56-GMT,3385;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20621 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:17:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA00927; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:45:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA27663; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:44:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446975 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:44:09 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27656 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:44:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp02.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA00909 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:44:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.71.59] ([195.5.71.59]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Nov 19 1999 19:47:43) with SMTP id FNIH5A05.AJ8 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:43:58 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199912291644.RAA00909@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:43:56 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Re: A couple of TOC templates (1) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L >attributes may be assigned globally in template. one of the last >additions to the inferface before we made it publically available for >testing was the + sytnax: > > foo =+l \foovar > >sets the variable \foobar (which should be a register in the above >case) globally [It is surprising how one is unable to find something, except when one has got already the answer. :-) ] Well, forget my previous message, and change istead the attribute declaratios: \DeclareTemplate{contentsobject}{JB1}{7}{ pre-action =+f0 [] \COpre@action, post-action =+f0 [] \COpost@action, decls =+f0 [] \COobject@decl, left-margin =+l [15pt] \@tempdimd, right-margin =+l [\@pnumwidth] \@tempdime, right-adjust =+l [\ttl@corr] \@tempdimb, label-format =+f0 [\thecontentslabel] \COnumber@format, label-width =+l [15pt] \@tempdima, title-format =+f1 [#1] \COtitle@format, title-format-nolabel =+f1 [\COtitle@format{#1}] \COtitle@format@nolbl, page-format =+f1 [#1] \COpnum@format, leaders-text =+f0 [.] \COleaders@action, leaders-width =+l [1pc] \@tempdimc } etc. \bye Javier 30-Dec-1999 19:41:46-GMT,4063;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03722 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 12:41:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA12313; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:41:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA18717; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:39:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446823 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:39:21 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA18695 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:39:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from ssmtp02.arrakis.isp ([212.59.199.83]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA12252 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:40:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.5.74.2] ([195.5.74.2]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Nov 19 1999 19:47:43) with SMTP id FNKJX400.F0R for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:39:04 +0100 x-sender: jbezos@pop.arrakis.es x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <199912301940.UAA12252@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:39:03 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Javier Bezos Subject: Re: A couple of TOC templates (1) To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L >tried that and will send sample instance file in a separate message. it does >work now but i'm still a bit worried about the mixture of global and local >settings. Me too. That's a very, very bad coding. Pehaps a solution could be an one-level expansion before passing the attributes as arguments, ie, something similar to the o specifier in the latex3 macros. Or maybe a protected full expansion... >anyway with a few exceptions it does now seem to work. As I said in my first message, I'm still working in the package and there are bugs to be fixed. And yes, bad flushing is one of the bugs. My main goal was to show the basic ideas of a different approach, even if the current bugs and those added to the templates version produce a wrong behaviour at some places. Anyway, the package provides \filright which _adds_ the filling to the current margin (\raggedright ignores any previous value), but it does not work correctly yet. >is it >something that should get a suggestion, or is this something really up >to template writers? for example the line > label-format = \textsc{\thecontentslabel}\ , >below seems rather strange to me (after having written a lot of >templates in one style) as i would expect to get the label in #1 >rather than having to provide a fixed name --- why then #1 in the >page-format? I'm not saying that i'm right here, but i would like to >invite comments (perhaps that particular example is bad as counters in >LaTeX are sort of strange beasts anyway with their internal >repesentation forms etc) I would, too. This is another way of doing things which (to me) makes sense in the original package, but perhaps not in templates. But as I said (Nov. 24): >template >provides a more readable version of the latter: > >number-format = \ (\textit{#1}), > >but my implementation will follow the first procedure for >comparison purposes. \bye Javier 31-Dec-1999 22:41:36-GMT,2530;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26764 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:41:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (relay-eth.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.201]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA26625; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:33:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay (relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.201]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA26398; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:28:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 446993 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:28:58 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26389 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:28:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from gate.eds.de (gate.eds.de [205.191.194.5]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA26508 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:29:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com by gate.eds.de with SMTP id XAA02536 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for ); Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:29:37 +0100 Received: by n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA134069397; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:29:57 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199912301940.UAA12252@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14445.11877.401145.120147@n15ux24.nets.de.eds.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:29:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Greetings To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L In-Reply-To: <199912301940.UAA12252@relay.uni-heidelberg.de> Hallo everybody, a peaceful and successful 2000 to all of you. best frank ps half an hour too early but who knows whether or not listserv software is Y2K complient :-)