Archive-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1993 09:08:25 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 1 Sep 93 09:06:30 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9309011406.AA05517@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: indexing and language-independence Koopman writes: >A brief retrace to pretty printing. Language sensitivity is a boon to >the programmer in automagically generating an index and cross >references. Language independence is valuable, also. The two are not >mutually exclusive. However, the complexity of the LP tool that >generates index entries by parsing code is greater than one which >requires the author's interjection of 'escaped sequences' to >accomplish the same. The only new idea in nuweb was a way to semi-automatically generate an index for a language-independent LP system. Works fine and requires no escape sequences. IMHO, the results are more useful than the automatically generated variety produced by weave and cweave. Norman Ramsey has adapted the same approach to noweb and it could also be adapted to funnelweb (or weave and cweave, for that matter). Preston Briggs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1993 11:06:58 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 15:20:48 MET DST Message-ID: <9309061320.AA12676@gallium.chem.vu.nl> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dentato@MINERVA.ING.UNIROMA1.IT From: ravenek@chem.vu.nl (Walter Ravenek) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ravenek@CHEM.VU.NL Subject: Re: Nuweb for Mac > A friend of mine is intersted about nuweb for Macintosh after I showed him >the Unix version. I remember someone ported nuweb on Mac, is it possible to >have a copy of it? > > Thanks. > > ___ __ Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" > //_/// \ Dipartimento di Informatica e Sistemistica > // \//__/ Via Buonarroti 12 00184 Roma (Italy) > Remo Dentato tel: +39-6-4873689 fax: +39-6-4873628 > email: dentato@cadgroup.ing.uniroma1.it Hi, I was away for some time, hence the delay. I have ported nuweb to the Mac. It runs with THINK C. Do you want my changes to the source or the apllication I generated? Walter Ravenek Dept. of Chemistry Vrije Universiteit De Boelelaan 1083 1081 HV Amsterdam The Netherlands e-mail: ravenek@chem.vu.nl ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1993 13:55:55 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 18:04:37 GMT Message-ID: <22143.9309091804@dlpx1.dl.ac.uk> From: Dave Love Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, d.love@DARESBURY.AC.UK To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: TeX and literate programming References: <9308280317.AA18082@flaubert.bellcore.com> <9308301654.AA11069@porkface.mentorg.com> >>>>> On Mon, 30 Aug 93 09:54:51 -0700, sboyle@COM.MENTORG.wv (Sean Boyle x1542) said: Sean> Yes, I know about Sean> dvi2tty and such utilities. Theoutput fromthese isunacceptable, Sean> probably dueto kerningit lookslike this... Without a *lot* of mucking Sean> around with the text, it looks terrible. Nroff does a fair job of Sean> coming up with a straight text representation. If this sort of thing is important, I think you *can* do a reasonable job with (La)TeX, but you have to use an appropriate style and fonts to produce the dvi file, although I don't know of an entirely satisfactory solution at present. I may end up doing some work on this in the near future as a means of avoiding TeXinfo. If anyone really feels a need for it, let me know. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1993 15:44:02 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309092013.AA20159@shaddam.usb.ve> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1993 16:08:26 -500 To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kcousins@RP.CSIRO.AU From: mpalma@usb.ve (Prof. Marcos E. Palma Marin) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mpalma@USB.VE Subject: Re: Internet Survey > INTERNET SURVEY > > Adele F. Bane > William D. Milheim > The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley >_______________________________________________________________________________ >_ >This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of the >Internet that are most used by the academic community. You have been chosen as >a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate. >Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be published >later this year. Please answer all survey questions. >_______________________________________________________________________________ >_ > >INTERNET INSIGHTS: A Survey > >We will begin by asking a few questions about yourself: > > How many years of computer experience do you have? _15____ 5 year > How long have you used e-mail of any type? _8____ 1 year > How long have you been an Internet user? _2____ 1 year > >Three primary functions of the Internet have been identified. They are >electronic mail, Telnet or remote log-in, and FTP or file transfer. An >estimated 15 million users take advantage of these functions daily. >This survey explores the use of each of these services. > >1. E-Mail Use: How often do you make these connections? > > (Insert the appropriate number beside items below:) > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > Private Email: _6____ 2 > > Discussion group(s): _6____ 2 > (Specify) > Literate Programming, 'LitProg' > Mathematica 'MathGroup' > > Usenet (or Netnews) _6____ 1 > > Electronic journal(s)/newsletters(s): _2____ 1 > (Specify) > DECnews > > > >2. Telnet Use: How often do you connect to remote databases? > > (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > Games/Simulations: _3____1 > Library Catalogs: _4____1 > . Specialized Databases: _2____1 > > >2a. How frequently do you connect these Internet sources: > > (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > American Mathematical Society BBS _1____1 > American Psychological Assn. _1____1 > CARL _1____1 > CITADEL _1____1 > Cleveland FreeNet _1____1 > Dartmouth Dante _1____1 > Dialog _1____1 > Dow-Jones News Retrieval _1____1 > Dranet _1____1 > EDIN _1____1 > EPA _1____1 > ERIC _1____1 > FEDIX/MOLIS _1____1 > GenBank _1____1 > Geographic Name Server _1____1 > International Centre for Distance Learning _1____1 > ISAAC _1____1 > Lexis _1____1 > Market/Business Report _1____1 > National Education BBS _1____1 > Netfind _2____1 > Nexis _1____1 > Oceanic Information Center _1____1 > OCLC _1____1 > PENpages _1____1 > RLIN _1____1 > SpaceLink _1____1 > STIS _1____1 > TC Forum _1____1 > Weather Underground _1____1 > Webster Dictionary _1____1 > > Other (Please specify): > > > >3. FTP Use: How often do you download files from FTP archive sites? > > (Insert appropriate number beside each item) > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > Computers and Academic Freedom _1____1 > EASI _1____1 > History _1____1 > LIBSOFT _1____1 > Lyric and Discography _1____1 > NASA _3____1 > Online Libraries Directory _1____1 > Science Education _1____1 > SIMTEL20 _2____1 > SUMEX-AIM _1____1 > U.S. Supreme Court Decisions _1____1 > Washington Uni. Public Domain Archives _2____ > > Other (Please Specify): > > > >4. Several navigational aids have been developed for the Internet. > How often do you use these network guides? > > (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > Archie _4____3 > Campus-wide Information Systems _2____1 > Gopher _2____1 > WAIS (Wide-area information servers) _2____1 > WWW (WorldWideWeb) _6____1 > Veronica _1____1 > HYTELNET _2____ > Other (Please specify): > > >Personal experiences can be the most helpful to other users. Please comment on >the following: > >5. The importance of the Internet to your work? > > Very important, both as a communication tool and as an information > source. > > > >6. Advantages the Internet offers over other resources? > > (Relative) ease of use, fast turnaround, low cost, high bandwidth > > >7. Barriers to using the Internet? > > I feel that the access to Internet resources has been hampered by > a lack of comprehensive tools. It is one thing to expect hardened > programmers and scientists to fiddle with the intricacies of some > utilities (ftp, X11 protocols, network addressing stuff, etc.)... > quite another to hand these things to the sorts of people who > would baulk at a UNIX command line (doctors, artists, perhaps > historians, etc.). > >8. Your most memorable use of the Internet? > > > >9 These questions will help us interpret the results of this study: > > Title: _Experimental Scientist_________________ > Affiliation: __________________________________ > Discipline: _Electrical Engineering____________ > Research Interest(s):_High speed wireless local area_____ > networking_______________________________________________ > >Please return the completed survey to: WMILHEIM@PSUGV.EDU >by September 3, 1993. > >If you would like a summary of the survey results, please place your >e-mail address here: _kcousins@rp.csiro.au____________________. > > > :) Thank you for taking the time to participate :) > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof. Marcos E. Palma M. | Eng. Marcos E. Palma M. Dpto.Procesos y Sistemas | Centro de Informatica y Comunicaciones Universidad Simon Bolivar | Universidad Simon Bolivar Valle de Sartenejas | Valle de Sartenejas CARACAS-VENEZUELA | CARACAS-VENEZUELA Apto. Postal 89000 | Apto. Postal 89000 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone: (58) (2) 963-3022 | e-mail: mpalma@usb.ve Ext 3920, 3922 | FAX: (58) (2) 93-8420 | --------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1993 16:13:04 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 23:07:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: Richard Kooijman Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, R.Kooijman@ET.TUDELFT.NL Subject: Re: TeX and literate programming To: d.love@daresbury.ac.uk CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 9 Sep 1993, Dave Love wrote: > >>>>> On Mon, 30 Aug 93 09:54:51 -0700, sboyle@COM.MENTORG.wv (Sean Boyle x1542) said: > > Sean> Yes, I know about > Sean> dvi2tty and such utilities. Theoutput fromthese isunacceptable, > Sean> probably dueto kerningit lookslike this... Without a *lot* of mucking > Sean> around with the text, it looks terrible. Nroff does a fair job of > Sean> coming up with a straight text representation. > > If this sort of thing is important, I think you *can* do a reasonable > job with (La)TeX, but you have to use an appropriate style and fonts > to produce the dvi file, although I don't know of an entirely > satisfactory solution at present. I may end up doing some work on > this in the near future as a means of avoiding TeXinfo. If anyone > really feels a need for it, let me know. I use dvidoc myself and I am very satisfied. As long as you need ASCII output, you put in a style called 'dvidoc', run LaTeX and use dvidoc to display the material. For final output you remove 'dvidoc' style and use your regular dvi2something. Richard. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1993 16:55:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Vince Mehringer Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, vince@EYE.COM Message-ID: <9309092150.AA10445@magnolia> Subject: Re: Internet Survey To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mpalma@usb.ve Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 17:50:30 EDT Your mailer is off!! I received this completed survey -- but it was not mine. I can only hope that MY completed survey is not being mailed around the world to somebody else. Vince > > > INTERNET SURVEY > > > > Adele F. Bane > > William D. Milheim > > The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley > >_______________________________________________________________________________ > >_ > >This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of > the > >Internet that are most used by the academic community. You have been > chosen as > >a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate. > >Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be > published > >later this year. Please answer all survey questions. > >_______________________________________________________________________________ > >_ > > > >INTERNET INSIGHTS: A Survey > > > >We will begin by asking a few questions about yourself: > > > > How many years of computer experience do you have? _15____ 5 year > > How long have you used e-mail of any type? _8____ 1 year > > How long have you been an Internet user? _2____ 1 year > > > >Three primary functions of the Internet have been identified. They are > >electronic mail, Telnet or remote log-in, and FTP or file transfer. An > >estimated 15 million users take advantage of these functions daily. > >This survey explores the use of each of these services. > > > >1. E-Mail Use: How often do you make these connections? > > > > (Insert the appropriate number beside items below:) > > > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > > > Private Email: _6____ 2 > > > > Discussion group(s): _6____ 2 > > (Specify) > > Literate Programming, 'LitProg' > > Mathematica 'MathGroup' > > > > Usenet (or Netnews) _6____ 1 > > > > Electronic journal(s)/newsletters(s): _2____ 1 > > (Specify) > > DECnews > > > > > > > >2. Telnet Use: How often do you connect to remote databases? > > > > (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) > > > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > > > Games/Simulations: _3____1 > > Library Catalogs: _4____1 > > . Specialized Databases: _2____1 > > > > > >2a. How frequently do you connect these Internet sources: > > > > (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) > > > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > > > American Mathematical Society BBS _1____1 > > American Psychological Assn. _1____1 > > CARL _1____1 > > CITADEL _1____1 > > Cleveland FreeNet _1____1 > > Dartmouth Dante _1____1 > > Dialog _1____1 > > Dow-Jones News Retrieval _1____1 > > Dranet _1____1 > > EDIN _1____1 > > EPA _1____1 > > ERIC _1____1 > > FEDIX/MOLIS _1____1 > > GenBank _1____1 > > Geographic Name Server _1____1 > > International Centre for Distance Learning _1____1 > > ISAAC _1____1 > > Lexis _1____1 > > Market/Business Report _1____1 > > National Education BBS _1____1 > > Netfind _2____1 > > Nexis _1____1 > > Oceanic Information Center _1____1 > > OCLC _1____1 > > PENpages _1____1 > > RLIN _1____1 > > SpaceLink _1____1 > > STIS _1____1 > > TC Forum _1____1 > > Weather Underground _1____1 > > Webster Dictionary _1____1 > > > > Other (Please specify): > > > > > > > >3. FTP Use: How often do you download files from FTP archive sites? > > > > (Insert appropriate number beside each item) > > > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > > > Computers and Academic Freedom _1____1 > > EASI _1____1 > > History _1____1 > > LIBSOFT _1____1 > > Lyric and Discography _1____1 > > NASA _3____1 > > Online Libraries Directory _1____1 > > Science Education _1____1 > > SIMTEL20 _2____1 > > SUMEX-AIM _1____1 > > U.S. Supreme Court Decisions _1____1 > > Washington Uni. Public Domain Archives _2____ > > > > Other (Please Specify): > > > > > > > >4. Several navigational aids have been developed for the Internet. > > How often do you use these network guides? > > > > (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) > > > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > > > Archie _4____3 > > Campus-wide Information Systems _2____1 > > Gopher _2____1 > > WAIS (Wide-area information servers) _2____1 > > WWW (WorldWideWeb) _6____1 > > Veronica _1____1 > > HYTELNET _2____ > > Other (Please specify): > > > > > >Personal experiences can be the most helpful to other users. Please > comment on > >the following: > > > >5. The importance of the Internet to your work? > > > > Very important, both as a communication tool and as an information > > source. > > > > > > > >6. Advantages the Internet offers over other resources? > > > > (Relative) ease of use, fast turnaround, low cost, high bandwidth > > > > > >7. Barriers to using the Internet? > > > > I feel that the access to Internet resources has been hampered by > > a lack of comprehensive tools. It is one thing to expect hardened > > programmers and scientists to fiddle with the intricacies of some > > utilities (ftp, X11 protocols, network addressing stuff, etc.)... > > quite another to hand these things to the sorts of people who > > would baulk at a UNIX command line (doctors, artists, perhaps > > historians, etc.). > > > >8. Your most memorable use of the Internet? > > > > > > > >9 These questions will help us interpret the results of this study: > > > > Title: _Experimental Scientist_________________ > > Affiliation: __________________________________ > > Discipline: _Electrical Engineering____________ > > Research Interest(s):_High speed wireless local area_____ > > networking_______________________________________________ > > > >Please return the completed survey to: WMILHEIM@PSUGV.EDU > >by September 3, 1993. > > > >If you would like a summary of the survey results, please place your > >e-mail address here: _kcousins@rp.csiro.au____________________. > > > > > > :) Thank you for taking the time to participate :) > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Prof. Marcos E. Palma M. | Eng. Marcos E. Palma M. > Dpto.Procesos y Sistemas | Centro de Informatica y Comunicaciones > Universidad Simon Bolivar | Universidad Simon Bolivar > Valle de Sartenejas | Valle de Sartenejas > CARACAS-VENEZUELA | CARACAS-VENEZUELA > Apto. Postal 89000 | Apto. Postal 89000 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Phone: (58) (2) 963-3022 | e-mail: mpalma@usb.ve > Ext 3920, 3922 | > FAX: (58) (2) 93-8420 | > --------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 03:37:00 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 10:31:28 +0200 From: coates@spectro.jussieu.fr Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, coates@SPECTRO.JUSSIEU.FR Message-ID: <9309100831.AA17918@lutidine.spectro.jussieu.fr> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: Internet Survey Dear Litproggers, > Your mailer is off!! I received this completed survey -- but it was > not mine. I can only hope that MY completed survey is not being > mailed around the world to somebody else. > > Vince > > > > > > > INTERNET SURVEY > > > > > > Adele F. Bane > > > William D. Milheim > > > The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley We had this discussion once before. To summarise, such is the way LitProg works that if you just *reply* to such a survey, a copy goes to LitProg as well. And, well, we don't want to read your survey, do we?? ;-) So, please, when answering this or any other such thing that arrives in the future, please try to check whether your mailer is sending the reply just to the author, or to LitProg as well. Otherwise, have fun! Cheers, Tony. ________________________________________________________________________________ A.B.Coates (Tony) Laboratoire de Spectroscopie Hertzienne de l'ENS Universite Pierre et Marie Curie Case 74, 4 place Jussieu Email: coates@spectro.jussieu.fr F-75252 Paris CEDEX 05 Telephone: +33 1 44 27 44 09 France Fax: +33 1 44 27 38 45 "J'ai mes opinions. L'universite a ses opinions. L'intersection de ces deux ensembles est probablement vide." "I have my opinions. The university has its opinions. The intersection of these two sets is probably empty." ________________________________________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 09:59:54 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199309101457.AA00424@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, vote@dogwood.com Subject: 2nd CFV: comp.programming.literate Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 16:57:23 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher [The above article contains Instructions on how to vote for or against the creation of a newsgroup mirrored to this mailing list. Note that your vote should be sent to vote@dogwood.com and *ONLY* to vote@dogwood.com. Due to the way mailing lists work, it is highly unlikely that simply replying to this article without manually editing the address will do the right thing -- Matthias] SECOND CALL FOR VOTES (this is the last Call For Votes) Unmoderated group comp.programming.literate Newsgroups line: comp.programming.literate Literate programs and programming tools. Votes must be received by 14 Sep 1993 23:59:59 GMT SPECIAL NOTE: Due to technical problems, dogwood.com was off the net from Thursday morning through Saturday afternoon. Some votes may have been returned by your local system, please resend them! This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting questions only, contact dave@dogwood.com. For questions about the proposed group, contact Matthias Neeracher . A copy of this Call For Votes will be sent to LitProg@shsu.edu after the original Call For Votes appears in news.announce.newgroups. STANDARD VOTING INFO You should send MAIL (posts to a group are invalid) to vote@dogwood.com (just replying by MAIL to this message should work). Your mail message should contain one and only one of the following statements: I vote YES on comp.programming.literate or I vote NO on comp.programming.literate You may add a comment, but anything other than a definite statement involving the group name and "yes", "no", "for", or "against" on a single line may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. If you later change your mind you may also use send in an "abstain" vote in the same manner, using "abstain" in place of "yes" or "no". Standard Guidelines for voting apply - one vote per person (not per account). 100 more YES votes than NO votes and 2/3 of all votes being YES are the requirements for group creation. Votes will be acknowledged by email; a list of bounced acknowledgements will be posted with the second Call For Votes. A mass acknowledgement will NOT be posted. You may inquire about the status of your vote by emailing the vote-taker (dave@dogwood.com). After the results have been announced a complete list of the votes will be posted in news.groups and will be mailed on request (email requests to dave@dogwood.com). The vote-taker can accept no responsibility for improperly configured mailers. CHARTER Charter: A forum for the discussion of issues related to literate programming. (1) To share ideas, questions, experiences, and knowledge about the reading and writing of literate programs. (2) To discuss the merits of the currently existing literate programming tools. (3) To discuss the design of new literate programming tools. If a newsgroup is created, it will be mirrored to the existing mailing list LitProg@shsu.edu. For reference purposes, the newsgroup will be fully archived by the host sponsoring the mailing list. Background: What is Literate Programming? Literate programming is a programming technique invented by Donald. E. Knuth. A literate programming system can be characterized by the following properties: - The compilable program and the publishable documentation should be generated *automatically* from a *single* document. - The program can be presented in the order that is best for human understanding, regardless of any requirements of the programming language. - The program should be automatically indexed and cross-referenced. Knuth's original system, called WEB, generated Pascal code and a TeX documentation. Most tools relating to the TeX system have been written using WEB, and the TeX and Metafont programs have been published in book form. Today, there are Literate Programming systems for a wide range of programming languages and documentation systems. Specialized Literate Programming tools have been written for Ada, Awk, C, C++, Fortran, Modula-2, Modula-3, Pascal and Scheme, and generic tools exist that can generate almost any programming language (including Perl and sh). Documentation systems supported include TeX, Troff, and Word for Windows. "BOUNCED" ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS: none -- Dave Cornejo There is nothing so subtle Dogwood Media as the obvious Fremont, California ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 07:48:17 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Thorbjoern Ravn Andersen Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ravn@IMADA.OU.DK Message-ID: <199309131246.AA24717@imada.ou.dk> Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: comp.programming.literate To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, vote@dogwood.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 14:47:05 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Matthias Ulrich Neeracher | | [The above article contains Instructions on how to vote for or against the | creation of a newsgroup mirrored to this mailing list. Note that your | vote should be sent to vote@dogwood.com and *ONLY* to vote@dogwood.com. | Due to the way mailing lists work, it is highly unlikely that simply replying | to this article without manually editing the address will do the right | thing -- Matthias] | | SECOND CALL FOR VOTES | (this is the last Call For Votes) | | Unmoderated group comp.programming.literate | | Newsgroups line: | comp.programming.literate Literate programs and programming tools. | | Votes must be received by 14 Sep 1993 23:59:59 GMT | | SPECIAL NOTE: Due to technical problems, dogwood.com was off the net | from Thursday morning through Saturday afternoon. Some votes may have | been returned by your local system, please resend them! | | This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting | questions only, contact dave@dogwood.com. For questions about the | proposed group, contact Matthias Neeracher . | | A copy of this Call For Votes will be sent to LitProg@shsu.edu after | the original Call For Votes appears in news.announce.newgroups. | | | STANDARD VOTING INFO | | You should send MAIL (posts to a group are invalid) to | vote@dogwood.com | (just replying by MAIL to this message should work). Your mail | message should contain one and only one of the following statements: | | I vote YES on comp.programming.literate | or | I vote NO on comp.programming.literate | | You may add a comment, but anything other than a definite statement | involving the group name and "yes", "no", "for", or "against" on a | single line may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. | If you later change your mind you may also use send in an "abstain" | vote in the same manner, using "abstain" in place of "yes" or "no". | | Standard Guidelines for voting apply - one vote per person (not per | account). 100 more YES votes than NO votes and 2/3 of all votes being | YES are the requirements for group creation. | | Votes will be acknowledged by email; a list of bounced acknowledgements | will be posted with the second Call For Votes. A mass acknowledgement | will NOT be posted. You may inquire about the status of your vote by | emailing the vote-taker (dave@dogwood.com). | | After the results have been announced a complete list of the votes | will be posted in news.groups and will be mailed on request (email | requests to dave@dogwood.com). | | The vote-taker can accept no responsibility for improperly configured | mailers. | | CHARTER | | Charter: A forum for the discussion of issues related | to literate programming. | | (1) To share ideas, questions, experiences, and knowledge about the | reading and writing of literate programs. | | (2) To discuss the merits of the currently existing literate | programming tools. | | (3) To discuss the design of new literate programming tools. | | If a newsgroup is created, it will be mirrored to the existing mailing list | LitProg@shsu.edu. For reference purposes, the newsgroup will be fully archived | by the host sponsoring the mailing list. | | Background: What is Literate Programming? | | Literate programming is a programming technique invented by Donald. E. Knuth. | A literate programming system can be characterized by the following properties: | | - The compilable program and the publishable documentation should be | generated *automatically* from a *single* document. | | - The program can be presented in the order that is best for human | understanding, regardless of any requirements of the programming | language. | | - The program should be automatically indexed and cross-referenced. | | Knuth's original system, called WEB, generated Pascal code and a TeX | documentation. Most tools relating to the TeX system have been written | using WEB, and the TeX and Metafont programs have been published in book | form. | | Today, there are Literate Programming systems for a wide range of | programming languages and documentation systems. Specialized Literate | Programming tools have been written for Ada, Awk, C, C++, Fortran, | Modula-2, Modula-3, Pascal and Scheme, and generic tools exist that | can generate almost any programming language (including Perl and sh). | | Documentation systems supported include TeX, Troff, and Word for | Windows. | | "BOUNCED" ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS: | | none | -- | Dave Cornejo There is nothing so subtle | Dogwood Media as the obvious | Fremont, California | | -- Thorbj{\o}rn Andersen ravn@imada.ou.dk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 09:18:44 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 09:14:30 CDT From: bart@cs.tamu.edu (Bart Childs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bart@CS.TAMU.EDU Message-ID: <9309131414.AA26653@clavin> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, ravn@imada.ou.dk Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: comp.programming.literate I vote YES on comp.programming.literate ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 09:42:27 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 16:39:48 MET DST Message-ID: <9309131439.AA23435@gallium.chem.vu.nl> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu From: ravenek@chem.vu.nl (Walter Ravenek) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ravenek@CHEM.VU.NL Subject: Nuweb for Macintosh I have received some requests for the changes for porting nuweb to the Macintosh. Since the changes are so few, I think it is overkill to give the full source code. I am using the THINK C development system; the nuweb version I am using is 0.85 (available from cs.rice.edu in directory /public/preston). The 3 changes required are: - file main.c - add after line 1: #include - file main.c - replace line 6: int arg = 1; - by int arg; argc = ccommand(&argv); arg = 1; - file output.c - replace line 10: char *temp_name = tempnam(".", 0); - by char *temp_name = tmpnam(NULL); That's all. Walter Ravenek Dept. of Chemistry Vrije Universiteit De Boelelaan 1083 1081 HV Amsterdam The Netherlands e-mail: ravenek@chem.vu.nl ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 11:03:57 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Thorbjoern Ravn Andersen Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ravn@IMADA.OU.DK Message-ID: <199309131600.AA26985@imada.ou.dk> Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: comp.programming.literate To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ravn@imada.ou.dk Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 18:01:19 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thorbjoern Ravn Andersen I apologize for my posting which included the CFV instructions. My intent was to "forget" the letter, but I mistyped. Hopefully this hasn't been too much of an inconvenience Regards, -- Thorbj{\o}rn Andersen ravn@imada.ou.dk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 12:54:17 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 19:50:42 +0200 From: dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE Message-ID: <9309131750.AA08556@messua> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: CWEB for LaTeX? I guess I habe read about a webmac for LaTeX, but cannot seem to find it. And, what is the newest version of CWEB? (Need C++, need LaTeX support.) Thanks, David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 13:18:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 20:14:57 +0200 From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Message-ID: <9309131814.AA13598@x4u.desy.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Subject: CWEB for LaTeX? References: <9309131750.AA08556@messua> >>>>> On Mon, 13 Sep 93 19:50:42 +0200, dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE said: |> I guess I habe read about a webmac for LaTeX, but cannot seem to find |> it. And, what is the newest version of CWEB? (Need C++, need LaTeX |> support.) Do I understand correctly that we need a (minimal) FAQ for CWEB... :-) ->> CWEB 3.0 (labrea.stanford.edu:/pub/cweb/), and it has C++ cupport. ->> cweb-sty-0.4 from ftp.th-darmstadt.de:/programming/literate-programming/ But, again, FWEB has both as well. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Marcus Speh, II.Inst.Theor.Physik,Luruper Chaussee 149, 22761 Hamburg,Germany Phone: +49-40 8998 2178, Fax: +49-40 8998 2267, Private: +49-40 801392 Internet: BITNET: DECnet:<13313::SPEH> ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 13:56:12 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: psych!big_ben!db@psych.toronto.edu Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, psych!big_ben!db@PSYCH.TORONTO.EDU Date: Mon, 13 Sep 14:51:16 1993 To: litprog@shsu.edu Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 14:56:00 EDT From: db@big_ben (Derek Bradley) Message-ID: <9309131856.AA18051@big_ben.toronto.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: comp.programming.literate I vote YES on comp.programming.literate ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 13:58:53 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 11:54:26 -0800 To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE From: beezer@ups.edu (Rob Beezer) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, beezer@UPS.EDU Subject: Re: CWEB for LaTeX? C++ and LaTeX both work with FWEB without doing anything special. You need only avoid the \\ of LaTeX. If you need the \\, a command line switch will make it possible. Rob Beezer >I guess I habe read about a webmac for LaTeX, but cannot seem to find >it. And, what is the newest version of CWEB? (Need C++, need LaTeX >support.) >Thanks, > David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de > Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 > Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 15:29:32 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, wald@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 16:21:51 EDT Message-ID: <199309132021.AA14420@moa.lcs.mit.edu> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: comp.programming.literate This obviously bears repeating. From Matthias's original posting of the call for votes to this list: >[The above article contains Instructions on how to vote for or against > the creation of a newsgroup mirrored to this mailing list. Note that > your vote should be sent to vote@dogwood.com and *ONLY* to > vote@dogwood.com. Due to the way mailing lists work, it is highly > unlikely that simply replying to this article without manually > editing the address will do the right thing -- Matthias] By the rules for USENET votes, votes which are not sent to vote@dogwood.com cannot be counted. Please be careful to check the addresses when you mail your votes. -David ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 16:20:34 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199309132115.AA07682@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, psych!big_ben!db@PSYCH.TORONTO.EDU Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: comp.programming.literate Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 23:15:12 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH In message <9309131856.AA18051@big_ben.toronto.edu> you write: > > I vote YES on comp.programming.literate Thanks, but votes to the mailing list cannot be counted. Please send your vote to vote@dogwood.com. Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "And that's why I am going to turn this world upside down, and make of it a fire so *bright* that someone real will notice" -- Vernor Vinge, _Tatja Grimm's World_ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 04:16:47 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 11:09:24 MET From: Zdenek Wagner Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, WAGNER%CSEARN.BITNET@SHSU.EDU Subject: Re: CWEB for LaTeX? To: Literate Progaramming list , dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE On Mon, 13 Sep 93 19:50:42 +0200 said: >I guess I habe read about a webmac for LaTeX, but cannot seem to find >it. And, what is the newest version of CWEB? (Need C++, need LaTeX >support.) >Thanks, > David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de > Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 > Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen The latest version of CWEB is 3.0 and it supports also C++. Joachim Schrod made a style ``cweb.sty'' which enables the use of CWEB with LaTeX. Everything is available from Darmstadt. If I remember it well, the site is ftp.th-darmstadt.de, directory: pub/programming/literate-programming/c.c++ Regards ,~~~/ /` / /| /~~~ / / |_/ /__/ ' | / / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /\ | /| / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~~ / , / / /~~~ / / /~~~ / \ |/ |/ / /_/ / / / /~~~ / ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ' ' ~~~ ' ` ' ' ~~~ ~~/ ' ' ~~~ ' Zdenek Wagner______/ Some gateway between me and you may garble backslash. It will appear on your screen as ã due to problems with EBCDIC <--> ASCII conversion. It has already been corrected on SOME gateways. The address is obsolete. Valid addresses are: ^^ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 04:20:47 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 11:15:14 MET From: Zdenek Wagner Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, WAGNER%CSEARN.BITNET@SHSU.EDU Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: comp.programming.literate To: Literate Progaramming list , wald@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU On Mon, 13 Sep 93 16:21:51 EDT said: >This obviously bears repeating. From Matthias's original posting of >the call for votes to this list: > >>[The above article contains Instructions on how to vote for or against >> the creation of a newsgroup mirrored to this mailing list. Note that >> your vote should be sent to vote@dogwood.com and *ONLY* to >> vote@dogwood.com. Due to the way mailing lists work, it is highly >> unlikely that simply replying to this article without manually >> editing the address will do the right thing -- Matthias] > Our system has the command ``reply from'' for this purpose. Something similar may work for you - ask your system manager. >By the rules for USENET votes, votes which are not sent to >vote@dogwood.com cannot be counted. Please be careful to check the >addresses when you mail your votes. > >-David Sorry for bothering all of you with remarks not connected with LP. ,~~~/ /` / /| /~~~ / / |_/ /__/ ' | / / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /\ | /| / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~~ / , / / /~~~ / / /~~~ / \ |/ |/ / /_/ / / / /~~~ / ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ' ' ~~~ ' ` ' ' ~~~ ~~/ ' ' ~~~ ' Zdenek Wagner______/ Some gateway between me and you may garble backslash. It will appear on your screen as ã due to problems with EBCDIC <--> ASCII conversion. It has already been corrected on SOME gateways. The address is obsolete. Valid addresses are: ^^ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 13:07:05 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 18:03:44 +0000 (GMT) From: ZABOROWSKY_BENJAMIN_R@Lilly.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ZABOROWSKY_BENJAMIN_R@LILLY.COM Subject: nuweb for c-shell scripts To: litprog@shsu.edu Message-ID: <6244031314091993/A07191/CORP02/117973421300*@MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Has anyone used nuweb to write c-shell scripts? I find my self putting a lot of comments inline with the script code to explain not only the script, but to add additional information that is necessary to understand and appreciate why the script exists in the first place. I can envision a document with many, many lines of prose for each line of "code" (100:1 ?). The information has to exist (should exist!) some where, so why not in the same file as the script? Any guidance, suggestions, or examples will be appreciated. Thanks, --Ben Zaborowsky benz@lilly.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 09:01:00 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 9:58:33 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, ZABOROWSKY_BENJAMIN_R@lilly.com Subject: Re: nuweb for c-shell scripts Message-ID: Ben Zaborowsky asks: > Has anyone used nuweb to write c-shell scripts? I find my self putting > a lot of comments inline with the script code to explain not only the > script, but to add additional information that is necessary to understand > and appreciate why the script exists in the first place. I can envision > a document with many, many lines of prose for each line of "code" (100:1 ?). > > The information has to exist (should exist!) some where, so why not in the > same file as the script? > > Any guidance, suggestions, or examples will be appreciated. Thanks, I don't know about nuweb, but I do know that noweb can be used (and has been) for shell scripts, and just about everything else. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 11:23:27 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 12:18:47 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9309151618.AA11776@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET CC: LitProg@shsu.edu, ZABOROWSKY_BENJAMIN_R@lilly.com Subject: Re: nuweb for c-shell scripts Yes I have used nuweb for all kinds of scripts. You just have to run nuweb first to obtain the script (from the nuweb file which contains the docs, etc). nuweb has one page info sheet (only 3-4 commands to know), and is easy to learn. Osman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 11:36:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 17:32:39 BST From: Manuel Carriba Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, M.Carriba@DCS.SHEFFIELD.AC.UK Message-ID: <9309151632.AA10662@dcs.shef.ac.uk> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, ZABOROWSKY_BENJAMIN_R@lilly.com, LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET Subject: Re: nuweb for c-shell scripts Lee Wittenberg writes: > > Ben Zaborowsky asks: > > > Has anyone used nuweb to write c-shell scripts? I find my self putting > > a lot of comments inline with the script code to explain not only the > > script, but to add additional information that is necessary to understand > > and appreciate why the script exists in the first place. I can envision > > a document with many, many lines of prose for each line of "code" (100:1 ?). > > > > The information has to exist (should exist!) some where, so why not in the > > same file as the script? > > > > Any guidance, suggestions, or examples will be appreciated. Thanks, > > I don't know about nuweb, but I do know that noweb can be used (and has > been) for shell scripts, and just about everything else. nuweb is language independent and can be used with any programming language. I'm currently using it with a multi-tasking programming language and an assembler language for hardware devices. It makes it also easy to combine several threats of different languages, and it looks pretty good on its documentation with LaTeX (nuweb weaves its source to a LaTeX document). Anyway I don't see any problems to tangle c-shell scripts, but I don't have an example here at the moment :-) Have fun, Manuel Carriba (M.Carriba@dcs.shef.ac.uk) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 11:46:31 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 17:32:39 BST From: Manuel Carriba Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, M.Carriba@DCS.SHEFFIELD.AC.UK Message-ID: <9309151632.AA10662@dcs.shef.ac.uk> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, ZABOROWSKY_BENJAMIN_R@lilly.com, LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET Subject: Re: nuweb for c-shell scripts Lee Wittenberg writes: > > Ben Zaborowsky asks: > > > Has anyone used nuweb to write c-shell scripts? I find my self putting > > a lot of comments inline with the script code to explain not only the > > script, but to add additional information that is necessary to understand > > and appreciate why the script exists in the first place. I can envision > > a document with many, many lines of prose for each line of "code" (100:1 ?). > > > > The information has to exist (should exist!) some where, so why not in the > > same file as the script? > > > > Any guidance, suggestions, or examples will be appreciated. Thanks, > > I don't know about nuweb, but I do know that noweb can be used (and has > been) for shell scripts, and just about everything else. nuweb is language independent and can be used with any programming language. I'm currently using it with a multi-tasking programming language and an assembler language for hardware devices. It makes it also easy to combine several threats of different languages, and it looks pretty good on its documentation with LaTeX (nuweb weaves its source to a LaTeX document). Anyway I don't see any problems to tangle c-shell scripts, but I don't have an example here at the moment :-) Have fun, Manuel Carriba (M.Carriba@dcs.shef.ac.uk) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 14:24:06 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 12:18:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Tucker Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, a_tucker@PAUL.SPU.EDU Subject: Knuth's original WEB report To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am trying to obtain Knuth's original WEB report (Stanford TR 980) form Sept. 1983. I wrote to Stanford and they say it is only available on microfiche. Does anyone have a copy of this report that they could photocopy and mail me? I would really appreciate it. BTW, I do know that I could probably get a very similar thing by printing out a current copy of WEB but, for reasons I won't go into, I do need/want Knuth's original. Thanks. /* Andrew */ "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot, C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg" -- Bjarne Stroustrup ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 10:01:04 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 09:58:26 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9309161458.AA08330@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, ZABOROWSKY_BENJAMIN_R@lilly.com Subject: Re: nuweb for c-shell scripts We've used nuweb for shell scripts, make files, C, Fortran, and ML. You ought to be able to use it for any other language you can dream up. Same goes for noweb and FunnelWeb. Preston ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 14:12:18 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 12:13:44 PDT Message-ID: <9309161913.AA25961@freenet.victoria.bc.ca> From: ub359@freenet.victoria.bc.ca (Brent D. Beach) To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: none Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ub359@freenet.victoria.bc.ca help ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 15:52:26 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 22:49:24 +0200 From: Matthias Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Message-ID: <199309162049.AA04352@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: RESULT: comp.programming.literate passes 354:31 [I'm very happy about this result and from the vote result, I assume that I'm not the only one :-) Unless anybody posts a serious objection to news.groups within the next days, comp.programming.literate will be created in about 5 days. For bandwidth reasons, I omitted the full list of votes. Those interested may retrieve it by ftp from ftp.uu.net in the file usenet/news.announce.newgroups/comp/comp.programming.literate or by asking me for a copy by email. Hope to see you soon on USENET -- Matthias] comp.programming.literate group vote results - 385 votes Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group ---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : ------------------------------------------- 354 31 : Yes Yes : Yes : comp.programming.literate CHARTER Charter: A forum for the discussion of issues related to literate programming. (1) To share ideas, questions, experiences, and knowledge about the reading and writing of literate programs. (2) To discuss the merits of the currently existing literate programming tools. (3) To discuss the design of new literate programming tools. If a newsgroup is created, it will be mirrored to the existing mailing list LitProg@shsu.edu. For reference purposes, the newsgroup will be fully archived by the host sponsoring the mailing list. [Full text available by ftp or email request to me] Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "Paranotions, which designate constructs, may now contain metanotions and ``hypernotions'' have been introduced in order to designate protonotions" -- A. van Wijngaarden et al., _ALGOL 68 Revised Report_ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 16:10:42 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 17:24:03 GMT Message-ID: <13679@apusapus.demon.co.uk> From: Trevor Jenkins Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tfj@APUSAPUS.DEMON.CO.UK To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: MS-DOS cweb v3 executable wanted I've looked through the cweb directories of both pip.shsu.edu and tex.ac.uk and cannot find any (MS-DOS) executables for cweb v3. I can find the sources okay (at least on pip) but I'm after the EXEs. Anyone know of an FTP site that has said thingies? Regards, Trevor. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trevor Jenkins Re: "deemed!" 134 Frankland Rd, Croxley Green, RICKMANSWORTH, WD3 3AU, England email: tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk phone: +44 (0)923 776436 radio: G6AJG "We need bigger and better books", Jimmy Tingle (Damned in the USA) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1993 10:42:50 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 19 Sep 93 17:27:09 MEZ From: Hans-Hermann Bode Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, HHBODE@DOSUNI1.RZ.UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE Subject: Re: MS-DOS cweb v3 executable wanted To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tfj@APUSAPUS.DEMON.CO.UK Trevor Jenkins wrote: >I've looked through the cweb directories of both pip.shsu.edu and tex.ac.uk >and cannot find any (MS-DOS) executables for cweb v3. I can find the >sources okay (at least on pip) but I'm after the EXEs. Anyone know of an >FTP site that has said thingies? Get the file pub/msdos/tex/web/cwb30p8c.zip from ftp.rz.uni-osnabrueck.de. On pip.shsu.edu it's in the directory tex-archive/web/c_cpp/cwb30p8c. On tex.ac.uk I couldn't find it, too. Incidentally, I'm sorry for the somewhat cryptic identifier, but I thought it should contain the version numbers both of the original CWEB and of the port and---since it's dedicated for MS-DOS---it should be a legal MS-DOS file name. Hermann ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 09:54:31 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: David Thompson Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dthompson@COE2.COE.TTU.EDU To: LitProg Subject: FW: request for signature lines... Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 09:46:00 PDT Message-ID: <2C9DDE84@cpds01.coe.ttu.edu> I apologize right up front and have put on my flame-proof suit (so flame away about being off-topic), but is it out of line for me to ask posters to please include an email address in their signature line? In the wisdom of my network administrator, all internet headers are stripped before mail is forwarded to our individual mailboxes. (Yes, I'm using MSMail on my pc and it's an all-or-none setting. Instead of all users receiving the header, none of us do. Go figure.) I often would like to respond privately to a message read here, but cannot because I have no address. So, rather than clutter the mailing list, I hold my tongue (so to speak). So, if it isn't too much trouble, will posters please attach an email address as part of their signature? -=d ======================================================================= David B. Thompson internet: wqdbt@ttacs1.ttu.edu Civil Engineering Dept. internet: dthompson@coe2.coe.ttu.edu Texas Tech University internet: thompson@sun1.coe.ttu.edu P.O. Box 41023 Lubbock, Texas 79409-1023 USA ======================================================================= ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 11:43:08 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 12:40:49 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, a_tucker@paul.spu.edu Subject: Re: Knuth's original WEB report Message-ID: Andrew Tucker(?) asks: > > I am trying to obtain Knuth's original WEB report (Stanford TR 980) form > Sept. 1983. I wrote to Stanford and they say it is only available on > microfiche. Does anyone have a copy of this report that they could > photocopy and mail me? I would really appreciate it. I believe that the report is available via anonymous ftp from labrea.stanford.edu with the original WEB distribution. Unfortunately, I don't know the directory, but it can't be hard to find, since I found it once, myself :-). If you need a hardcopy, I have a copy somewhere I could xerox and send to you via snail mail, if you'll send me your address. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 12:15:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 13:12:46 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: MS-DOS cweb v3 executable wanted Message-ID: Trevor Jenkins asks: > I've looked through the cweb directories of both pip.shsu.edu and tex.ac.uk > and cannot find any (MS-DOS) executables for cweb v3. I can find the > sources okay (at least on pip) but I'm after the EXEs. Anyone know of an > FTP site that has said thingies? The official distribution at labrea.stanford.edu has a set of change files for compiling under the Borland compilers (and should be easy to modify for other PC compilers), but I don't think there are any DOS executables floating around on the net. I have a set of executables that I compiled (using said change files). If you like, contact me directly, and we'll see about sending you copies. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 14:20:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 14:19:53 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: litprog@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <00972D49.AD3B0D60.27768@SHSU.edu> Subject: About signing off LitProg !!!PLEASE READ THIS ADMINISTRIVIA POSTING!!! Given that the comp.programming.literate newsgroup has been (or, more precisely, will soon be) created and given that I am sure that more than a few of you will elect to drop your mail subscription to LitProg in favor of the newsgroup, please accept this message as merely pre-emptory in nature. It is my understanding that the newsgroup will come into existence sometime within the next week or two. I have already made arrangements so that as soon as the newsgroup is created at my gateway host site, the bidirectional gateway between LitProg and comp.programming.literate will be made operational. There {\em may} be a brief window when duality is not present, but it will be brief (if at all). To avoid misdirected (read "junk", "noise", "impertinent", "dumb user error", or whatever) posts to either the list or the newsgroup in your attempts to unsubscribe, please send a MAIL message to: LISTSERV@SHSU.BITNET (LISTSERV@SHSU.edu) -- or -- LitProg-Request@SHSU.edu stating in the body of the MAIL message: SIGNOFF LitProg %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% % Please do NOT send the SIGNOFF message to the list address, % % LitProg@SHSU.BITNET (LitProg@SHSU.edu), as this is the % % redistribution address for the list. All posting to LitProg % % are distributed to its worldwide list of subscribers, as % % well as to the comp.programming.literate newsgroup, once it % % is activated. % % % % Please note that the LISTSERV which serves LitProg is MAIL % % oriented only and is not conventional interactive LISTSERV. % %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% If, for some reason, LISTSERV cannot handle your request automagically, it will be forwarded to me (promise!!) for my manual attention. Also, any mail enqueued to LitProg prior to your signing off which is still enqueued for you will continue to be delivered until the queue clears (generally, you should receive nothing more within three days (if at all), give or take, once you receive confirmation that you have been removed). If you have any questions, are in need of specific assistance, etc., please contact {\em me} directly rather than the list address. I will make every honest effort to migrate users out of LitProg as can be made. My main concern, though, is that you not get hot and bothered and waste valuable bandwidth posting administrative requests to the list nor that you report to everyone that automatic handling didn't occur here in the middle of the night (my time) and you "can't get off the list" or other diatribe. As always, I thank each of you for your interest in our services and retain my open offer to discuss any and all ideas you might have for enhancing them. Regards, George %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% George D. Greenwade, Ph.D. Bitnet: BED_GDG@SHSU Department of Economics and Business Analysis THEnet: SHSU::BED_GDG College of Business Administration Voice: (409) 294-1266 P. O. Box 2118 FAX: (409) 294-3612 Sam Houston State University Internet: bed_gdg@SHSU.edu Huntsville, TX 77341 bed_gdg%SHSU.decnet@relay.the.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% LitProg data: Announced -- July 19, 1992 Subscribers -- September 20, 1993: 423 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 17:37:29 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: craig@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca (Craig Hubley) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, craig@GPU.UTCC.UTORONTO.CA Subject: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 20:33:37 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Of course I am familiar with the original idea but to me it seems like an evocative term so I wonder what other definitions it suggests. To me, "literate programming" implies that all information relevant to the construction of the system is embedded within it. Ideally this would work in a hypertext fashion, so that I can easily trace requirements, find descriptions of limitations where they are imposed (i.e. in design, or in a particular implementation). It makes it simple to answer questions posed at any point in the code like "why is this here?" or "what is this doing?" or "what else is affected by this?". In other words, perhaps to me the most important thing about literate programming is the glossary and the index... :) Craig -- Craig Hubley -- Consultants in object-oriented technology & techniques, -- Craig Hubley & Associates -- user interface design & user productivity -- craig@gpu.utcs.Utoronto.CA UUNET!utai!utgpu!craig craig@utorgpu.BITNET Toronto 416-969-2826 24hr, 416-469-4825, 463-2284 FAX Boston 617-322-2481 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 18:07:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: freeland@harlequin.com (Freeland Abbott) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, freeland@HARLEQUIN.COM Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 22:08:16 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article craig@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca (Craig Hubley) writes: In other words, perhaps to me the most important thing about literate programming is the glossary and the index... :) You forgot the guarantee. ``What guarantee?'' you ask... I mean the guarantee that the information is up-to-date and therefore likely to be correct; it's the difficultly of providing that which makes the job hard. -- -fka3 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 19:22:09 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, eugene@WILBUR.NAS.NASA.GOV Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 22:39:33 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU I just visited the newly moved Comp. Lit Bookshop now at the Apple R&D Center. I picked up DEK's book based on a discussion we had over dinner a couple months ago. Literate Programming means (to me) Don's book on the subject. It's a "Fabrege egg" to quote Doug McIlroy in my Favorite Programming Pearl with Don, Doug, and Jon Bentley. It's an unfinished Art of Computer Programming with a highly acclaimed text processing system which makes documents look like assembly language. It's The Errors of TeX. It lacks the empirical study of Fortran programs. It avoids the hype of topics like AI and virtual reality. It requires an informed, well-read readership. --eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews Scientific Programming {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene Seeking Books to buy: Bongard, Pattern Recognition 3 down 1 to go. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 19:22:19 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Subject: Literate Programming on the World Wide Web Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 22:35:08 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Literate Programming on the World Wide Web ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- FYI, there is a wealth of information on Literate Programming, the art of structured programming and documentation [especially using WEB-like systems with TeX formatting] available on the World Wide Web [WWW], a distributed HyperText system, a network of documents connected by links which can be activated electronically. Examples for LitProg environments are WEB for Pascal (DEK), CWEB for C/C++ (Levy/Knuth), FWEB for C/C++/Fortran/ratfor/TeX (Krommes)...and many more. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- * How to get to the Web ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have a WWW browser up and running, try going to http://info.desy.de:80/ (this brings you to the DESY home page), and look for "User Documents" in the panel which appears. The precise URL is http://info.desy.de:80/gnu/ftp/pub/www/projects/LitProg.html If you have no clue what WWW is, you can go over the Internet with telnet info.cern.ch which brings you to the WWW Home Page at CERN. You are now using the simple line mode browser. To move around the Web, enter the numbers given after an item. To go to the Literate Programming documents, enter go http://info.desy.de:80/gnu/ftp/pub/www/projects/LitProg.html [If you haven't telnet either, see below.] This is what you should see now: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- * What you will see here ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- LITERATE PROGRAMMING Recent changes [1]--Mail additions to this list to __________________________________________________________________ Getting Started[2] A first look into Literate Programming with WEB Editing[3] GNU Emacs mode for WEB programming Tools[4] Common, freely available Literate Programming environments Examples[5] Literate Programming archives and selected examples LitProg Library[6] George D. Greenwade's Literate Programming Library at Niord.shsu.edu LITPROG Discussion List[7] Information on the Literate Programming Mailing List. Now, there is also comp.literate.programming FAQs[8] Lists of Frequently Asked Questions for WEB systems Further Reading Nelson Beebe's Literate Programming bibliography at ftp.math.utah.edu in directory /pub/tex/bib[9] (files litprog.*) HyperLitProg[10] Literate Programming using HyperText[11] Techniques OO-LitProg[12] Thoughts on Object-Oriented[13] Literate Programming [[Now you can continue climbing down the documentation tree by entering numbers 1-13 and follow your own interests]] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- * More on Browsing the Web ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The by far nicest way of "browsing" through WWW uses the X-Terminal based tool "NCSA Mosaic". Binaries for many platforms (ready for use) and sources are available via anonymous FTP from ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu in directory Web/xmosaic. The general FTP repository for browser software is info.cern.ch (including a hypertext browser/editor for NeXTStep 3.0) If you cannot go through TELNET, you can still retrieve WWW documents by e-mail: send a mail to listserv@info.cern.ch with a line in it saying just HELP to get back detailed instructions. Your mail system must have a mail gateway to the internet mail. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Contact for Further Information ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please feel free to contact me for questions, suggestions and further contributions, or just to tell me whether you found this information useful in any way. For questions related to WWW, consult the WWW-FAQ: available via anonymous FTP from rtfm.mit.edu in directory pub/usenet/news.answers/www/faq, or on WWW at URL http://www.vuw.ac.nz:80/who/Nathan.Torkington/ideas/www-faq.html Enjoy. Sept 22-93 -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Marcus Speh, II.Inst.Theor.Physik,Luruper Chaussee 149, 22761 Hamburg,Germany Phone: +49-40 8998 2178, Fax: +49-40 8998 2267, Private: +49-40 801392 Internet: BITNET: DECnet:<13313::SPEH> ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 23:08:19 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: evan@hplerk.hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum) Subject: Tools for multi(programming)lingual literate programming? Message-ID: <1993Sep22.013936.1493@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 01:39:36 GMT Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU I would very much like to experiment with WEB-style (or otherwise) literate programming. Unfortunately, my programs tend to be written in several languages at once. As an example, my most likely first candidate is a second generation of a document formatting tool, and will include: o The formatter, written in C++, o A set of PostScript functions used by the PostScript code output by the formatter, o Emacs-lisp functions to allow easy specification of the formatter input, o A (default) configuration file in a format to be specified by me, o A man page written in (ugh!) nroff, and o (probably) a few perl scripts One of the attractions of programming in expositional order is the ability to have a section on, say, line breaking, in which I can include the code to process relevant arguments, the code to break the lines, the PostScript support routines that deal with continuation lines, and the man page entry documenting these arguments. As it stands now, the code is distributed throughout several files. I know that there are WEB-like tools that allow you to customize the programming language, but does anyone know of a tool in which each different code fragments can be in different languages? Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories | It is a popular delusion that the 3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U | government wastes vast amounts of Palo Alto, CA 94304 | money through inefficiency and sloth. | Enormous effort and elaborate kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | planning are required to waste this (415)857-7572 | much money | P.J. O'Rourke ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 03:08:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: cgra@btma74.nohost.nodomain (Chris Gray) Subject: Re: Subscription to mailing list LitProg Message-ID: <2006@se.alcbel.be> Date: 22 Sep 93 06:31:27 GMT Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, cgra@se.alcbel.be To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU I am a little confused by this posting --- are comp.programming.literate subscribers being invited to join the LitProg list, or is the newsgroup a mutation of the list, or what? Or maybe this LitProg document is intended to serve as a FAQ for comp.prog.lit? (Are abbreviations allowed on this group or are they ``considered illiterate'')? In any case it's good to see this group --- I first read about DEK's work in this area ooh, must be nearly ten years ago, and I'm still living in an illiterate environment. Anecdote: a few years ago the company introduced a rule that each (CHILL) procedure should be accompanied by an SDL.pr representation (a verbal flowchart). The programmers demanded, and got, a tool which would auto- matically generate the SDLs from the code, thereby ensuring that the SDLs were always up-to-date. :] __________________________________________________________________________ Chris Gray cgra@se.alcbel.be Compu$erve: 100065.2102 Ignore my broken mailer - the addresses above are the only truth __________________________________________________________________________ Alle menschen sind Auslaender. Fast ueberall. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 04:40:18 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309220938.AA02048@petrus.grenoble.hp.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, cgra@se.alcbel.be Subject: Re: Subscription to mailing list LitProg Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 11:38:10 +0200 From: Dominique Dumont / GND Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, domi@PETRUS.GRENOBLE.HP.COM In message <2006@se.alcbel.be> you write: > > Anecdote: a few years ago the company introduced a rule that each (CHILL) > procedure should be accompanied by an SDL.pr representation (a verbal > flowchart). The programmers demanded, and got, a tool which would auto- > matically generate the SDLs from the code, thereby ensuring that the SDLs > were always up-to-date. :] Shouldn't it be the other way ? From SDL to code . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Dominique Dumont ^^^^^^ Email: Dominique_Dumont@grenoble.hp.com / O O \ HP Desk: Dominique DUMONT / HP6300/UM ( \____/ ) Address : HEWLETT PACKARD, 38053 Grenoble Cedex 09 FRANCE \______/ Tel,Telnet: (33) 76 62 57 24 - 7 779 5724 Telex,Fax: 980 124 - (33) 76 62 53 20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 07:05:57 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 08:00:47 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9309221200.AA06614@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com CC: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Subject: Re: Tools for multi(programming)lingual literate programming? Try nuweb, noweb. The first is one executable. noweb consists of a number of programs. I think for a beginner nuweb is easier to learn (just a few commands ). In either case you need to know a little LaTex or TeX. Yeah, Funnelweb is also another choice but a few more commands (an TeX only I think), and wit ha much bigger manual than the either of the first two. I think all can or already are ported to quite a few platforms including DOS. Hope this helps. Osman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 08:28:33 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: krommes@theory.pppl.gov (John Krommes) Subject: Re: Tools for multi(programming)lingual literate programming? Date: 22 Sep 1993 12:30:35 GMT Message-ID: Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Krommes@Princeton.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Evan Kirshenbaum writes: >> I know that there are WEB-like tools that allow you to customize the >> programming language, but does anyone know of a tool in which each >> different code fragments can be in different languages? FWEB features multiple language support, and one can easily switch between languages within a single web source file. Presently the supported languages are C C++ Fortran-77 and Fortran-90 Ratfor-77 and Ratfor-90 TeX I am completing work on a language-independent mode. If you are very interested in that feature, please correspond with me privately; the speed with which that project is completed will depend on the number of requests. FWEB is available from lyman.pppl.gov:/pub/fweb A new release with a few bug fixes and substantially improved LaTeX support should be available sometime in the next two weeks. -- --- John (Mail to krommes@princeton.edu is forwarded to krommes@lyman.pppl.gov == 198.35.4.70. krommes@princeton.edu Ftp files to/from ftp.pppl.gov, NOT princeton.edu or lyman.pppl.gov.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 08:28:36 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Subject: Re: Tools for multi(programming)lingual literate programming? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 12:40:58 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU [This is copied from World Wide Web pages on Literate Programming-- I'd like to get more doc on litprog systems here. The easiest way to get a document, is to look up (from the number) the doc REFERENCE at the end, and send mail to listserv@info.cern.ch with the message send REFERENCE e.g. "send file://desy.de/pub/www/projects/Announce/LitProg.txt" for info on accessing these pages -- Marcus Speh] -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: postmaster@nxoc01.cern.ch (Mail robot) To: marcus Subject: Re: send http://info.desy.de:80/pub/www/projects/LitProg/Tools.html Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 13:59:29 MET DST The requested document follows. Linked documents may be obtained using SEND
where the addresses are listed at the end. ________________________________________________________________________ List of Literate Programming Tools LIST OF LITERATE PROGRAMMING TOOLS Have a look at the LitProg Library[1] for a more complete overview and sources. CLiP (PostScript[2], plain[3]) A universal (language-independent) literate programming tool, currently ported to VAX/VMS and MS-DOS only. See also: CLiP Style[4] and Manual[5] (PostScript) CWEB[6] WEB System of Structured Documentation for C and C++. References [v3.0, all PostScript]: User's Manual[7], common[8], cweave[9], ctangle[10] FunnelWEB[11] Features and comparison with FWEB, by P. Lyon (original message to LitProg[12] mailing list). FWEB[13] WEB System of Structured Software Design and Documentation for Fortran-77, Fortran-90, Ratfor, C, C++ and TeX. References [v1.30, all PostScript]: fwebmac[14] [40p.], User's Manual [body[15], index[16], 200 p.], guide[17] [20p.] Glasgow LitProg Tools A GNU Texinfo-based suite of literate programming tools from Glasgow, at ftp.dcs.glasgow.ac.uk:/pub/haskell/glasgow/. Here is the documentation[18] [PostScript[19]]. NOWEB (plain[20], PostScript[21]) "Literate-Programming Tools Need Not Be Complex", by N. Ramsey. NUWEB[22] (PostScript) Yet another simple Literate Programming tool for arbitrary programming languages, with LaTeX as formatter. Command Summary[23] (ps) WinWordWEB[24] A WORDWEB (HyperText literate programming[25]) Last updated August 31, 1993 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ References from this document:- [1] gopher://Niord.shsu.edu:70/11gopher_root%3a%5b_DATA.LITPROG%5d [2] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/faq/web/clip/clip_ann.ps [3] http://info.desy.de:80/gnu/ftp/pub/faq/web/clip/clip_ann.plain [4] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/faq/web/clip/clip_ann.ps [5] file://sun01.info.wau.nl/clip/ms_dos/clip_man.ps [6] http://heplibw3.slac.stanford.edu:80/FIND/FREEHEP/NAME/CWEB/FULL [7] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/web/DOCUMENTS/cweb/cwebman.ps [8] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/web/DOCUMENTS/cweb/common.ps [9] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/web/DOCUMENTS/cweave.ps [10] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/web/DOCUMENTS/cweb/ctangle.ps [11] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/faq/web/funnelWEB/funnelWEB.html [12] http://info.desy.de:80/gnu/ftp/pub/www/projects/LitProg/Mailing.html [13] http://heplibw3.slac.stanford.edu:80/FIND/FREEHEP/NAME/FWEB/FULL [14] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/web/DOCUMENTS/fweb-manual/macros.ps [15] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/web/DOCUMENTS/fweb-manual/manual.ps [16] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/web/DOCUMENTS/fweb-manual/index.ps [17] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/web/DOCUMENTS/fweb-manual/guide.ps [18] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/www/projects/LitProg/glasgow/top.html [19] http://info.desy.de:80/gnu/doc/litprog/lit2x-0.16-literate.ps [20] http://info.desy.de:80/gnu/ftp/pub/faq/web/noweb/noweb.html [21] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/faq/web/noweb/noweb.ps [22] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/web/nuweb/nuweb.ps [23] file://ftp.shsu.edu/tex-archive/web/nuweb/nuweb-summary.ps [24] gopher://Niord.shsu.edu:70/11gopher_root%3a%5b_DATA.FILESERV.WORDWEB%5d [25] http://info.desy.de:80/pub/www/projects/LitProg/HTML.html -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Marcus Speh, II.Inst.Theor.Physik,Luruper Chaussee 149, 22761 Hamburg,Germany Phone: +49-40 8998 2178, Fax: +49-40 8998 2267, Private: +49-40 801392 Internet: BITNET: DECnet:<13313::SPEH> ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 08:33:05 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 08:32:38 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: litprog@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <00972EAB.7ED850A0.3008@SHSU.edu> Subject: For the news distribution.......... Unbelievable. In just the first few hours of its existence, comp.programming.literate (c.p.l) has been at least as active as LitProg when it first fired up and virtually all of the posts are from "newbies" (defined as not prior LitProg subscribers). As owner of LitProg, please allow me to intervene on a few topics which have already arisen. On 22 Sep 93 06:31:27 GMT, cgra@btma74.nohost.nodomain (Chris Gray) asked about the "Subscription to mailing list LitProg" post: > I am a little confused by this posting --- are comp.programming.literate > subscribers being invited to join the LitProg list, or is the newsgroup a > mutation of the list, or what? Or maybe this LitProg document is intended > to serve as a FAQ for comp.prog.lit? (Are abbreviations allowed on this > group or are they ``considered illiterate'')? LitProg was begun July 19, 1992, as the sole (as far as anyone involved in its initiation knew, anyway) source of discussion focused exclusively on literate programming. I don't believe that anyone involved expected that the list would grow as it did, nor that its subscribership or activity would get anywhere close to where it did as quickly as it did. To give credit where it's due, Cameron Smith was the original proponent of the list, followed closely by Don Hosek . The core group (who are too numerous to list, but are very appreciated) created one of the better lists, IMO, on the nets. Due to the growth of LitProg and a few side discussions on the list, Matthias Ulrich Neeracher posted the RFD and CFV for c.p.l, which is completely gatewayed with LitProg. Anything posted to LitProg@SHSU.edu (LitProg@SHSU.BITNET) will get to c.p.l (so those who wish to use news in lieu of mail may do so) and anything posted to c.p.l will get to LitProg (so those who wish to use mail instead of news or because they lack access to news may do so). Next, the thread of "What does literate programming mean to you?" has already arisen (which I sort of expected). Please allow me to point out to news users (especially those with no prior contact with LitProg!) that this has been thrashed out previously on LitProg (not that it doesn't deserve rethrashing -- the *concept* of literate programing may be one of the more important items in gaining wider acceptance to literate programming as a real life production vehicle for programmers). For reference, LitProg is fully archived (and I may soon begin a complete Gopher-based index-searchable archive -- this will require a little more time than I have at present, but I have the tools available to do so). You can retrieve the LitProg archives via ftp from Niord.SHSU.edu (192.92.15.8) in the directory [FILESERV.LITPROG] (Niord is a VMS machine). The files LITPROG.yyyy-mm are the archives, with "yyyy" being the year and "mm" the month (i.e., this post will be included in LITPROG.1993-09 since it's now September, 1993). Next, Marcus Speh has already pointed out his World Wide Web literate programing library at info.desy.de (Marcus, please check your directory specifications for the files at SHSU, BTW -- I just tried and failed to get back here and my server logs indicate it is due to a bad request at your end). In addition to the WWW resource Marcus provides, Niord.SHSU.edu runs a Gopher server on port 70. I just moved a "Literate Programming Library" entry to the top-level menu there (it is still included in the "TeX-related Materials" menu for those of you who are used to getting to it from there). This gopher burrow at SHSU includes the archives of LitProg, access to the web/ directory on SHSU's host of the Comprehensive TeX Archive Network (CTAN), and access to most literate programming tools available from SHSU (and if you know of one or more I've omitted, please let me know and I'll get it in place). I just added an HTML link to Marcus' host so those of you with gopher clients which are HTML compatible can get there in one jump from Niord's Gopher server. I plan on working with Joachim Schrod (who you'll come to know as a valuable resource, if you don't already) on getting a parallel literate programming library arranged from and between his host in Darmstadt (Germany) and one of mine here (and make every effort to make it gopherable from here, as well). In other words, there is already a wealth of information and resources available for your use (and further development!). Regards, George %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% George D. Greenwade, Ph.D. Bitnet: BED_GDG@SHSU Department of Economics and Business Analysis THEnet: SHSU::BED_GDG College of Business Administration Voice: (409) 294-1266 P. O. Box 2118 FAX: (409) 294-3612 Sam Houston State University Internet: bed_gdg@SHSU.edu Huntsville, TX 77341 bed_gdg%SHSU.decnet@relay.the.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 09:29:55 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199309221427.AA21457@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 10:28:03 +0600 To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, craig@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca From: tsl1@cornell.edu (Tim Larkin) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tsl1@CORNELL.EDU Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? >Of course I am familiar with the original idea but to me it seems >like an evocative term so I wonder what other definitions it suggests. To me, literate programming means writing a program text for a human reader rather than for a compiler. Hypertext, index, glossary, pretty printing, these are tactics, not to be confused with the goal. A literate programmer's first priority isn't to be clever or efficient: his first priority is to explain the problem and the solution so that a human reader will understand them and will enjoy learning about them. As Horace counselled, to entertain and to instruct. Tim Larkin tsl1@cornell.edu 607-255-7008 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 09:36:35 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Subject: FWEB (v1.30) Info Hypertextified Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 13:58:25 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU I have 'hypertextified' John Krommes' FWEB Info (new with version v1.30a from June 1993). The URL on the World Wide Web is: http://info.desy.de:80/pub/www/projects/LitProg/info/top.html FAQ: I have (finally) rebuilt FWEB on my SGI-Iris5 and am working on the update of the FWEB FAQ for v1.30a. [For info on how to get there, retrieve via anonymous FTP ftp.desy.de:/pub/www/projects/Announce/LitProg.txt ] -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Marcus Speh, II.Inst.Theor.Physik,Luruper Chaussee 149, 22761 Hamburg,Germany Phone: +49-40 8998 2178, Fax: +49-40 8998 2267, Private: +49-40 801392 Internet: BITNET: DECnet:<13313::SPEH> ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 09:49:56 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: prechelt@i41s18.ira.uka.de (Lutz Prechelt) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, prechelt@I41S18.IRA.UKA.DE Subject: Re: Tools for multi(programming)lingual literate programming? Date: 22 Sep 1993 14:26:49 GMT Message-ID: <27pnb9INN704@iraun1.ira.uka.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <9309221200.AA06614@stnfor.ae.ge.com>, ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) writes: |> ). In either case you need to know a little LaTex or TeX. Yeah, Funnelweb is |> also another choice but a few more commands (an TeX only I think), and |> wit ha much bigger manual than the either of the first two. You can use FunnelWeb with LaTex, too. Just say \def\bye{\relax} at the beginning of your FunnelWeb document and there you go. (To use 11pt or 12pt style, you have to redefine a few commands) FunnelWeb is quite powerful (e.g. parameterized macros). The manual is really very large, but that does not mean that you cannot get started within 10 minutes with FunnelWeb: the basics are quite similar to the way the simple Webs like NoWeb work. Lutz -- Lutz Prechelt (email: prechelt@ira.uka.de) | Whenever you Institut fuer Programmstrukturen und Datenorganisation | complicate things, Universitaet Karlsruhe; 76128 Karlsruhe; Germany | they get (Voice: ++49/721/608-4068, FAX: ++49/721/694092) | less simple. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 11:31:39 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309221627.AA13335@mailee.bellcore.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com Subject: Re: Tools for multi(programming)lingual literate programming? Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 12:27:45 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM > I would very much like to experiment with WEB-style (or otherwise) > literate programming. Unfortunately, my programs tend to be written > in several languages at once... does anyone know of a tool in which each > different code fragments can be in different languages? noweb was designed precisely for this purpose (and for simplicity). A stable version is available via ftp from ftp.cs.princeton.edu:pub or from bellcore.com:pub/norman. An alpha test version is available from me by email. The alpha version adds many improvements to the LaTeX output, language-independent identifier cross-reference and indexing, and bugs. Lots of bugs. Norman Ramsey norman@bellcore.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 11:39:43 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 12:35:36 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com Subject: Re: Tools for multi(programming)lingual literate programming? Message-ID: Evan Kirshenbaum writes: > I would very much like to experiment with WEB-style (or otherwise) > literate programming. Unfortunately, my programs tend to be written > in several languages at once. As an example, my most likely first > candidate is a second generation of a document formatting tool, and > will include: > > o The formatter, written in C++, > > o A set of PostScript functions used by the PostScript code output > by the formatter, > > o Emacs-lisp functions to allow easy specification of the formatter > input, > > o A (default) configuration file in a format to be specified by me, > > o A man page written in (ugh!) nroff, and > > o (probably) a few perl scripts > > One of the attractions of programming in expositional order is the > ability to have a section on, say, line breaking, in which I can > include the code to process relevant arguments, the code to break the > lines, the PostScript support routines that deal with continuation > lines, and the man page entry documenting these arguments. As it > stands now, the code is distributed throughout several files. > > I know that there are WEB-like tools that allow you to customize the > programming language, but does anyone know of a tool in which each > different code fragments can be in different languages? noweb can definitely handle the job. I believe that nuweb and FunnelWeb will also do the trick, as will CLiP. I, myself, have written a single noweb web (awkward phrase, but I couldn't think of a better one) that contains a C program and a DOS batch file that invoked it. Jon Krom's cross indexer for noweb contains a Unix shell script, a DOS batch file, and an Awk script all in one web. The main point here is that what you want is eminently doable with already existing tools. -- Lee leew@pilot.njin.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 14:38:40 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: hzhu@liverpool.ac.uk (Mr. H. Zhu) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, hzhu@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 16:52:00 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article , freeland@harlequin.com (Freeland Abbott) writes: > > In article craig@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca (Craig Hubley) writes: > > In other words, perhaps to me the most important thing about literate > programming is the glossary and the index... :) > > > You forgot the guarantee. ``What guarantee?'' you ask... I mean the > guarantee that the information is up-to-date and therefore likely to be > correct; it's the difficultly of providing that which makes the job hard. > -- The difficulty arises from the fact that computers and humans read completely different parts of a literate program. Following are some ideas of how this can be avoided. At present we have 'pure programing languages' like C, 'pure text formatting languages' like TeX. Their combination is the so-called literate programs. However, we also have many computer algebra software, (also called symbolic computation). If they are added to the programs, the results can be far more robust against change. Here's a sample C function. --------------- void f(float a) { //requires: a>0 float b, c, d; b = sqrt(a); //guaranttees: b>0 scanf("%f", c); //requires: c>0 d = c+1/c; //guaranttees: d>2 //invariant: a } -------------- This is what an "ideal compiler" should say: assertion at line 3 (a>0) passed to linker. assertion at line 6 (c>0) changed to run time checking. assertion at line 7 (d>2) not guarantteed. Best possible: d>=2. _______________ In this way, the compiler reads the program and assertions, and make sure that they agree with each other. The typesetting mechinism makes the assertions part of the *text*, so that humans can read them easily. Of cause this idea comes from the programming language Eiffel, but what I would like is a full symbolic computation mechanism. It will be really great if there is a universal mechanism by which programing language, symbolic computation software, and text formatting software can be combined, even if they are designed without regard to each other. Sounds like a dream? -- Huaiyu Zhu hzhu@liverpool.ac.uk Dept. of Stat. & Comp. Math., University of Liverpool, L69 3BX, UK ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 16:03:17 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 16:34:21 -0400 From: koopman@sgi84.ctc.com (Michael G. Koopman) Message-ID: <9309222034.AA13126@sgi84.ctc.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tsl1@CORNELL.EDU CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: What does literate programming mean to you? Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, koopman@ctc.com Tim Larkin wrote to LitProg (a.k.a. comp.programming.literate): >To me, literate programming means writing a program text for a human reader >rather than for a compiler. Some of the webs written for literate programming tools do not appear to be enhanced expositions of the principles underlying the behavior of the program (while including the code scraps). Such leading, literate program authors could be considered hypocrit infidels not practicing what they seem to preach (false names are used to protect the innocent). A comprehensive and well structured presentation (printed document, hypertext, other) that compiles to realize the description is what I expect from literate programming. Techniques that may benefit web reading and writing and have not been discussed (my wish list) include: An outline mode - with multiple levels of exposition. A hypertext tree allowing for "outlines" for different points of view (audiences). Chart, figure and graphics support capabilities (perhaps, SGML). { OK, TeX does this - but it is 'non-trivial' with TeX or LaTeX ] Also, audio and other presentation media inclusion. The web tools I have seen allow the literate programmer to improve (or demote) modularity, localization and other principles of software design. The structure of the web (hopefully, with "meta-comments") depicts the implementation of these design principles in its totality. Maintainability (and reusability) can also be improved (or reduced) with a web design. These latter principle seems to be the ones which literate programming can improve most. Providing short, relatively cryptic titles for code scraps and providing no discussion on the algorithm and implementation which the code realizes is not only opposed to what I expect from literate programming but is not literate programming, at all, IMNSHO. Michael Koopman (mike) e-mail: koopman@ctc.com Concurrent Technologies Corporation phone: +1-814-269-2637 1450 Scalp Avenue telefax: +1-814-269-2666 Johnstown, PA 15904-3321 USA ICBM: 40-15'N-78-50'W A technology's benefit must outweigh the risk in dollars & sense. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 16:03:29 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Jim Belesiu Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, jimb@HPMCAA.MCM.HP.COM Message-ID: <9309222038.AA05726@hpmcaa.mcm.hp.com> Subject: subsribe To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 13:38:18 PDT subscribe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 16:18:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: freeland@harlequin.com (Freeland Abbott) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, freeland@HARLEQUIN.COM Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 20:53:51 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article hzhu@liverpool.ac.uk (Mr. H. Zhu) writes: In article , freeland@harlequin.com (Freeland Abbott) [hey---that's me!] writes: > You forgot the guarantee. ``What guarantee?'' you ask... I mean the > guarantee that the information is up-to-date and therefore likely to be > correct; it's the difficultly of providing that which makes the job hard. The difficulty arises from the fact that computers and humans read completely different parts of a literate program. Following are some ideas of how this can be avoided. [intervening stuff deleted] --------------- void f(float a) { //requires: a>0 float b, c, d; b = sqrt(a); //guaranttees: b>0 scanf("%f", c); //requires: c>0 d = c+1/c; //guaranttees: d>2 //invariant: a } -------------- This is what an "ideal compiler" should say: assertion at line 3 (a>0) passed to linker. assertion at line 6 (c>0) changed to run time checking. assertion at line 7 (d>2) not guarantteed. Best possible: d>=2. _______________ Well, first of all, *my* ideal compiler would complain about the syntax error on line 6, where you want &c. ;-) Um... although I agree that this is part of the difficulty, I don't think it's all of it, and perhaps not even the hardest part... although your hypothetical compiler's figuring out not only that line 7 isn't guaranteed, but also that d >= 2 is the best approximation, is mighty impressive. But the difficulty also comes from the fact that computers have difficulty grasping high-order concepts, and *that* is what people are usually interested in. So, although your example is fine as far as it goes, I'd rather be able to make assertions like ``the queue contains no unmarked events'' or ``none of these objects are mapped to the screen'' or the like. I can look at your line 7 and see (with only a very little thought) that yes, d must be at least 2.0. It's harder to look at an arbitrary function call (with arbitrary subcalls) and know what that will guarantee, in semantic as well as mathematical terms. Having programmatic checking of the mathematical effects is certainly computable, of course---if, in your example, d were a global variable, for example, a program could certainly know that a call to f() would guarantee that the global d was at least 2.0 after the call. But imagine that the number were instead added to some sort of (dynamically allocated, globally scoped) list which recorded c+1/c for a number of inputs c, which would then be manipulated. Various mathematic constraints could be proven, certainly, but they would tend not to capture the notion ``d, which is at least 2.0, is in the list after a call to f()''.... it'd be more like ``the value field of the struct node pointed to by listHead is at least 2.0, and the next field of the struct is either null or non-null; if it is non-null, the value field of the struct node pointed to by listHead is at least 2.0, and the next fiend of the struct is either...,'' which would continue infinitely. So, how do you catch the semantics of a singly-linked list in a scheme like this? The constraint I'd like to get out of that version of f() is ``after a call to f(), the list will not be empty, the first element of it will be the sum of most recent input and its multiplicative inverse, and the rest of it will be the previous list.'' Sounds like a dream? Depends: the not-very-useful mathematical form doesn't, although it sounds hard (especially relative to its benefit to me). The more useful semantic form, yes, sounds dream-like. -- -fka3 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 18:49:03 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: bks@s27w007.pswfs.gov (Bradley K. Sherman) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bks@S27W007.PSWFS.GOV Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: 22 Sep 1993 22:45:45 GMT Message-ID: <27qkip$fa3@overload.lbl.gov> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU The literate programmer writes code that I, another literate programmer, can understand. Polished in her style, she can anticipate the areas of the code most likely to be altered and provides comments in tight grammatical English. The literate programmer knows that the code is the essence of the program. The commentary, code and whitespace are in harmony. He is obsessed with making good lexical choices. The literate programmer knows that copyright protection of source code is absurd; knowing the right approach to the problem --and which problem to approach-- is everything. The literate programmer is a poet not a novelist. --bks p.s. Please freely substitute for English in the first paragraph, per locale. -- Bradley K. Sherman P.O. Box 245 Computer Scientist Berkeley, CA, 94701 Dendrome Project 510-559-6437 FAX: 510-559-6440 Institute of Forest Genetics Internet: bks@s27w007.pswfs.gov ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 03:32:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Torsten Klein Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, parrus@CS.TU-BERLIN.DE Message-ID: <199309230824.AA03874@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de> Subject: unsubscribe To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 10:24:34 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please unsubscribe me from the mailing list LitProg. Thanks ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 11:45:15 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 11:41:17 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9309231641.AA21487@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, koopman@ctc.com Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? koopman@ctc.com writes: >Some of the webs written for literate programming tools do not appear >to be enhanced expositions of the principles underlying the behavior >of the program (while including the code scraps). Such leading, >literate program authors could be considered hypocrit infidels not >practicing what they seem to preach Hmm. Certainly nuweb (I wrote it) is worse in this respect than any other tools I've examined. So why did I write such an illiterate program? I have to consider it incomplete. It'll get more complete as I spend more effort on it. In the meantime, I (and others) are able to use it without worrying about whether I've finished describing it all. It's just a tool, not an end in itself. A hammer doesn't need a dissertation attached to be useful. Preston Briggs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 12:02:19 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309231658.AA25879@mailee.bellcore.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, koopman@ctc.com Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 12:58:20 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM > Some of the webs written for literate programming tools do not appear > to be enhanced expositions of the principles underlying the behavior > of the program (while including the code scraps). Such leading, > literate program authors could be considered hypocrit infidels not > practicing what they seem to preach (false names are used to protect > the innocent). I confess that my tool, noweb, is at best of poor quality when considered as a literate program. In mitigation I offer these two observations: i) Making a good-quality literate program is 3-4 times as expensive as just making a working program using literate-programming tools. ii) I have been unable to develop really good literate programs without peer review. I tolerate my ugly ``literate'' programs because in my work a program is seldom an artifact of the first importance. Far more often the paper is what matters (and what gets polished). Norman Ramsey ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 13:11:08 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 14:06:39 -0400 From: koopman@sgi84.ctc.com (Michael G. Koopman) Message-ID: <9309231806.AA01352@sgi84.ctc.com> To: preston@cs.rice.edu, norman@bellcore.com CC: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: What does literate programming mean to you? Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, koopman@ctc.com > Preston Briggs: So why did I write such an illiterate program? > Norman Ramsey: I confess that my tool, noweb, is ... As a novice and a "father confessor," concurrently :-) .... Both of your works are certainly valuable literate programming tools. Perhaps your self-evaluations are a bit critical with regards to these webs as examples. The structure of the web (irrespective of the depth of exposition in English [other]) and the code scraps provide the reader versed in the programming language quite a bit to go on. Simply the structure of the weave (index, cross ref.s) is a blessing compared to "illiterate" programs. Certainly, a working tool with a minimal description is more valuable than a description sans working implementation. Are these tools examples which prove that literate programming is only a benefit in certain cases? How is the crossover point to be determined? Expected life and audience of the program should be factors. > Norman Ramsey: > i) Making a good-quality literate program is 3-4times as expensive > as just making a working program using literate-programming tools. > ii) I have been unable to develop really good literate programs > without peer review. How does a literate programmer address these isues without risking intellectual property and justifying costs? Mike Koopman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 13:26:50 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 13:23:54 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9309231823.AA25258@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, koopman@ctc.com Subject: What does literate programming mean to you? >Are these tools [nuweb and noweb] >examples which prove that literate programming is only a benefit in >certain cases? How is the crossover point to be determined? Expected >life and audience of the program should be factors. I think nuweb is better expressed in nuweb than in raw C. And I think it'll be even better in the future. However, your question remains: Are there programs that would not benefit? For myself, I'm not sure. I generally use nuweb now instead of plain C, even when prototyping. On the other hand, I don't use it for Makefiles (though I might if I ever did anything hard). I think your point about "audience" is very important. Certainly we're constantly told to consider the intended audience when writing ordinary papers. And we obviously consider the audience when speaking (e.g., how you speak to your parents, your colleages, your children, a waiter, etc). However, I'm sure what advice to give. I feel very much like I'm learning as I go. Preston Briggs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 14:09:23 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: aaron@halcyon.com (Aaron) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, aaron@HALCYON.COM Subject: Re: Subscription to mailing list LitProg Date: 22 Sep 1993 18:52:29 -0700 Message-ID: <27qvgt$5je@nwfocus.wa.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <9309220938.AA02048@petrus.grenoble.hp.com>, Dominique Dumont / GND wrote: [...] >> flowchart). The programmers demanded, and got, a tool which would auto- >> matically generate the SDLs from the code, thereby ensuring that the SDLs >> were always up-to-date. :] > >Shouldn't it be the other way ? From SDL to code . What difference does it make? If you think in code, write in code and generate documentation. If you think in documentation, write in doc and generate the code. If you don't think, don't write. :) -- aaron@halcyon.com I know enough to know that I don't know enough. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 14:09:38 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: shf@netcom.com (Stuart Ferguson) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, shf@NETCOM.COM Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 07:24:21 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU +-- In article <>, freeland@harlequin.com (Freeland Abbott) writes: | You forgot the guarantee. ``What guarantee?'' you ask... I mean the | guarantee that the information is up-to-date and therefore likely to be | correct; it's the difficultly of providing that which makes the job hard. I say phooey. "What guarantee?" indeed. What guarantee do I have for any given random piece of code that it operates correctly? I have the word only of the original programmer, and their reputation which I must evaluate and trust or not. In a world of literate programmers, keeping the information up to date and accurate is part of the job. Innacurate commentary is unprofessional. Dammit. -- Stuart Ferguson (shf@netcom.com) "Oh Dear Lord -- the canary exploded!" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 14:09:51 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: mclay@cfdlab.ae.utexas.edu (Robert T. McLay) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mclay@CFDLAB.AE.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Big Programs & Separate files & Make & Incremental Compilation & Web Date: 22 Sep 93 22:51:36 Message-ID: To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU I would like to start a discussion about web's and Big projects. I freely admit to be a complete newbie when it comes to webs but my reading seems to say that programs in web tend to be much bigger that you might typically see in a unix style development. I believe that tex program is stored in 6-10 files. What I want to know is how well web's work when the programs are say 20,000 to 100,000 lines of code. If I make a small change in the program I would certainly like not to have to recompile all of the code. Now I freely admit that a program in web will be less error prone, so I might need less re-compiling but I still like quick re-compiles possible with make. So one way to answer my question is which of the webs handle a program spread over many files and are easily coupled with make. Another question is how well have people handled several people working on the same project w/ web. -- ______________________________________________________________________________ Robert McLay | Kayak Rules of Life: Manager CFD Lab | a) lose altitude Dept ASE-EM | b) Surf waves and holes. University of Texas at Austin | c) Do enders. WRW 111 | Austin, TX 78712 | | mclay@cfdlab.ae.utexas.edu | ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 14:12:01 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: d.love@dl.ac.uk (Dave Love) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, d.love@DL.AC.UK Subject: emacs tags technology for web-like systems? Date: 23 Sep 1993 09:53:59 GMT Message-ID: To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Does anyone have anything to allow the use of tags files in emacs with web-like systems (I'm interested in noweb, but I guess anything else would adapt straightforwardly). What I have in mind is treating code modules/chunks or whatever you call them on the same basis as identifiers. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 14:15:19 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: hubert@masi.ibp.fr (Stephane HUBERT (DEA IARFA)) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, hubert@MASI.IBP.FR Subject: Literate knowledges Date: 23 Sep 1993 15:34:24 GMT Message-ID: <27sfm0$knu@vishnu.jussieu.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keywords: Literate, knowledges-based systems To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU I am, personnaly, interested in the knowledges-based systems. I think that if we want that a system handle some knowledges, this knowledges must be given in a literate form. This condition is essential for systems whixh wants to act on the knowledges (ie learn, classify, ...). An other point of view is th systems which observes themself. If such a system don't have acces to a literate form of he, he can't know what he is doing. I think that literate programming is essential to be able to do some intelligent systems. Stephane HUBERT (student in meta-knowledge area ) e-mail: hubert@ecoledoc.ibp.fr ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 14:19:58 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Subject: Can the LitProg Archives be made searchable? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 11:27:40 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU The LitProg mailing list is less than one year old -- and nevertheless discussions have touched upon many topics which are being revived in this newsgroup now---I feel it would be a pity to leave the huge archives at SHSU unnoticed, with the lot of good postings buried there. Soon enough, we'll have postings from newcomers "Where is the FAQ for this group" - given that many questions [e.g. "What does LitProg mean to you?", "Experiences with large projects?" etc.] are non-technical but rather philosophical, a FAQ may not be the best way of presentation. Also, I don't really see anyone searching the volumes by hand and putting the archive numbers together...therefore: can we think of a way to make the LitProg archives (the Subject headers, maybe) searchable? I have seen this with gopher and WWW. For WWW, see http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/Administration/Mailing/Overview.html for an example (archive of the WWW mailing lists). -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Marcus Speh, II.Inst.Theor.Physik,Luruper Chaussee 149, 22761 Hamburg,Germany Phone: +49-40 8998 2178, Fax: +49-40 8998 2267, Private: +49-40 801392 E-mail: , ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 14:20:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 11:11:48 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Bradley> The literate programmer writes code that I, another literate Bradley> programmer, can understand. Polished in her style, she Bradley> can anticipate the areas of the code most likely to be Bradley> altered and provides comments in tight grammatical English. Bradley> The literate programmer knows that the code is the essence of Bradley> the program. The commentary, code and whitespace are in Bradley> harmony. He is obsessed with making good lexical choices. Bradley> The literate programmer is a poet not a novelist. *Very* nice account on literate programming, I like that! Bradley> The literate programmer knows that copyright protection of Bradley> source code is absurd; knowing the right approach to Bradley> the problem --and which problem to approach-- is everything. Agreed, cum grano salis: I do put a copyright under the GNU "copyleft" which I think is suitable also for literate programs. This copyleft is transferred to Global Network Academy, Inc. (Usenet University), an educational institution, thus not violating "Bradley's Law" :-) -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Marcus Speh, II.Inst.Theor.Physik,Luruper Chaussee 149, 22761 Hamburg,Germany Phone: +49-40 8998 2178, Fax: +49-40 8998 2267, Private: +49-40 801392 E-mail: , ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 14:20:25 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: foster@jed.cs.uidaho.edu () Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, foster@JED.CS.UIDAHO.EDU Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: 23 Sep 1993 15:34:53 GMT Message-ID: <27sfmtINN20t@owl.csrv.uidaho.edu> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article shf@netcom.com (Stuart Ferguson) writes: > >I say phooey. "What guarantee?" indeed. What guarantee do I have for >any given random piece of code that it operates correctly? I have the >word only of the original programmer, and their reputation which I must >evaluate and trust or not. In a world of literate programmers, keeping >the information up to date and accurate is part of the job. Innacurate >commentary is unprofessional. Dammit. This led me to an interesting thought (quick, bring an ice pack!)... Why not include a formal proof that the code has been verified, along with an informal description of what it does (you know, traditional unprofessional documentation)? A good untangler could strip the proof, if it exists, and run it through a theorem verifier in order to certify it. Now you need only check the English documentation against the assumptions in the verification proof. Before everyone gives the usual complaints against formal verification, let me remind you that 1) they don't matter, we're discussing literate programming and a proof should be part of this if it exists; 2) most of those arguments are obsolete; 3) sometimes there is no alternative to formally verified code (ever tried to debug a pacemaker?). -- James A. Foster foster@cs.uidaho.edu Laboratory for Applied Logic Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 14:20:31 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: mayoff@austin.ibm.com (Rob Mayoff) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mayoff@AUSTIN.IBM.COM Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 17:42:58 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article hzhu@liverpool.ac.uk (Mr. H. Zhu) writes: > scanf("%f", c); //requires: c>0 > d = c+1/c; //guaranttees: d>2 > This is what an "ideal compiler" should say: > assertion at line 6 (c>0) changed to run time checking. > assertion at line 7 (d>2) not guarantteed. Best possible: d>=2. I think you mean assertion at line 7 (d>2) not guaranteed. Best possible: d>=0. Consider the case of c == 2 (which makes d = 1.5) . And to be reliable your compiler must not only be able to solve systems of inequalities, but it must know some numerical methods, too. Consider: double a, b; int i; // case one a = 7e-1; // guarantees: a=0.7 scanf("%d", &i); b = (double)i - a; // guarantees: b0 then i-a < i for *any* i. So what's a compiler (or really, a compiler writer) to do? Of course, you might allow this kind of guarantee: // case three a = 7e-100; // guarantees: a=7e-100 scanf("%d", &i); // guarantees: i=floor(i) && i=ceil(i) b = (double)i - a; // guarantees: b Date: 23 Sep 1993 18:03:01 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU My approach to literate programming is to write programs that can be read, rather than the Web approach of writing programs that can be processed to make them readable. I do this because I rarely, if ever, get a listing; I much prefer to edit on the screen. I want my programs to be as readable as possible when I do. My coding standards for readable programs are: o Comments that describe a single code unit such as a declaration or statement *follow* that code unit, indented as if they were a statement continuation. (Comments describing a C++ class or C structure declaration follow the first line.) This has the effect of making the declaration a header for the comment rather than the other way around. o Therefore, comments need contain no information that is already in the code. This avoids problems with comments and code getting out of sync. In particular, comments must not contain either a rephrasing of the declaration they describe, or any cross-reference information that is derivable from the code. o Comments describing or summarizing a group of code units *preceed* the members of that group. I *do* have a (TeX-based) typesetter for C++ programs that uses a set of very simple rules; the typesetter is only used for header files, and the rules produce something that can be used as a programmer's manual for the modules described by the header. The typesetting rules are: o Code is printed in a monospaced font to preserve its formatting. o Comments are printed in a proportionally-spaced font, and may be paragraph-wraped. Any indentation to the left of them, however, is printed with the same spacing as code. o Comments consisting of a line of comment-start characters print as horizontal rules, and their first line is used as a section header. o Any comment line ending in ":" is boldfaced to serve as a subsection head. o Code that appears to be function bodies (i.e., in C, code that starts with a left brace in the left-hand column, plus inlined functions in C++) is omitted. o There is a distinctive set of comment delimiters that cause anything between them to be omitted. These are used to keep kludgery out of the user-level documentation. Example: class Point { // Description: // a trivial example -- C++ version of a point in polar // and cartesian coordinates. // Private data: float x_, y_; // Cartesian coordinates float x(); float y(); // Polar coordinates: float rho(); // Radius. float theta(); // Angle. }; -- \ --Steve Savitzky-- \ 343 Leigh Ave \ REAL HACKERS USE AN AXE! \ steve@crc.ricoh.COM \ San Jose, CA 95128 \ Free Cyberia! \ w: 415-496-5710 \ h:408-294-6492 \ \_________________________________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 14:30:29 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mfy@SLI.COM Subject: Re: Big Programs & Separate files & Make & Incremental Compilation & Web Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 18:33:25 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Quoting Robert T. McLay: What I want to know is how well web's work when the programs are say 20,000 to 100,000 lines of code. If I make a small change in the program I would certainly like not to have to recompile all of the code. There is a simple method which accomplishes this and even more: if you change only the documentation, you need not recompile anything. As your programming scale goes up, this feature gradually changes from being pleasant to being essential. In order to avoid elaborate circumlocutions, I will describe the particular system I use rather than a general one. Inscribe generates some number of files when it is run over its source (in what WEB users would call tangle mode, though this verb isn't appropriate here). For the sake of concreteness say they are m1.h through m9.h and m1.c through m9.c. Logically, what happens is that new versions of m1.h etc. are generated and compared to their corresponding old versions. If two such are identical, the new one is deleted, leaving the old one untouched; otherwise it replaces the old one. On UNIX, this is done literally (the new files are named m1.h+ etc.); on VMS, the new file is a more recent generation of the old one. (On UNIX, the old one is renamed m1.h~ to provide 1-level backup of old versions, but this isn't essential to the method.) The critical thing is that if m1.h doesn't change, it isn't touched, so a "make" won't trigger recompilations. A naive implementation, obviously, would generate completely fresh versions of all generated files, and so any change at all would require "recompiling the world." A side effect of this is that just typing "make" isn't enough; you must first run Inscribe, then make. This doesn't bother me because I think the make file should itself be made from the Inscribe source, but some have considered this a negative aspect. (I have also observed that nearly all large software projects use some kind of makemake facility layered on top of make, so this "misfeature" is not likely to matter.) This approach has the advantage that you may be able to layer it on top of existing LP tools via scripts. I recommend it highly. -- Michael F. Yoder [mfy@sli.com] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 16:05:45 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 17:02:49 -0400 From: koopman@sgi84.ctc.com (Michael G. Koopman) Message-ID: <9309232102.AA01867@sgi84.ctc.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE CC: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Subject: Can the LitProg Archives be made searchable? Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, koopman@ctc.com Marcus Speh writes to the newly formed comp.programming.literate newsgroup: > Soon enough, we'll have postings from newcomers >"Where is the FAQ for this group" - given that many questions >[e.g. "What does LitProg mean to you?", "Experiences with large >projects?" etc.] are non-technical but rather philosophical, a FAQ >may not be the best way of presentation. Also, I don't really see >anyone searching the volumes by hand and putting the archive numbers >together...therefore: can we think of a way to make the LitProg >archives (the Subject headers, maybe) searchable? How about keywords and comment fields. Perhaps starting a discussion regarding the meaning of relevant terms would lead to a glossary of terms after some likely heated disagreements. Then, the "final" glossary - perhaps three months hence - could lend itself to a classification scheme. A "lucky" person could then add the keywords and comment fields which apply to the archive. The glossary could go with the FAQ and those with enough concern for their postings could attempt to fit keywords to their new posts. If the glossary is sensible, good keywords should be obvious. Can *I* help in such an effort? .... OOPS there's my phone ... sorry, no time. :-) Mike ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 16:06:09 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 16:03:24 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9309232103.AA28712@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, mclay@cfdlab.ae.utexas.edu Subject: Re: Big Programs & Separate files & Make & Incremental Compilation & Web Most web tools support the creation of multiple output files (certainly nuweb, noweb, CWEB 3.0, FWEB, FunnelWeb). That is, within a single web, I can specify many files of code that will be created by the web tool. Many (all?) of tese tools have a provision that avoids overwriting a code file if it would be unchanged. Thus, it's easy to avoid massive recompiles when using make. Avoiding big TeX costs is harder. I'd like to modify nuweb to take advantage of the Latex \include mechanism, but haven't done so yet. Multi-person projects are harder to coordinate. In our case, we work on a multipass compiler, so there's a fairly natural division of labor and we have divided the project into a number of webs, one per pass, with a single overview/coordinating web that describes the common elements of each pass. I'm not sure how best to arrange more complex programs. Preston Briggs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 17:10:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: 23 Sep 1993 18:07:31 -0400 (EDT) From: esj%tuesday@leia.polaroid.com (Eric S. Johansson) Subject: What does literate programming mean to you? To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, esj%temerity@leia.polaroid.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In article shf@netcom.com (Stuart Ferguson) writes: > >I say phooey. "What guarantee?" indeed. What guarantee do I have for >any given random piece of code that it operates correctly? I have the >word only of the original programmer, and their reputation which I must >evaluate and trust or not. In a world of literate programmers, keeping >the information up to date and accurate is part of the job. Innacurate >commentary is unprofessional. Dammit. This led me to an interesting thought (quick, bring an ice pack!)... Why not include a formal proof that the code has been verified, along with an informal description of what it does (you know, traditional unprofessional documentation)? A good untangler could strip the proof, if it exists, and run it through a theorem verifier in order to certify it. Now you need only check the English documentation against the assumptions in the verification proof. Before everyone gives the usual complaints against formal verification, let me remind you that 1) they don't matter, we're discussing literate programming and a proof should be part of this if it exists; 2) most of those arguments are obsolete; 3) sometimes there is no alternative to formally verified code (ever tried to debug a pacemaker?). Another variant on this theme is inclusion of a formal derivation of a program. for examples, look at the Z specification methodologies (set based) and Ed Cohen's book, "Programming in the 1990's" (predicate based) I am a fan of formal derivation of programs because it is something we can do today instead of the someday promised by the verification folks. In the informal "what can we do now" vein, I think literate programming can help trace requirements from the initial requirements document to the actual implementation because indexing/cross reference capability present on the text processing side of the house. trying to track what code satisfies what requirement is a laborious manual process that mostly counts on a coder's memory of the code and the requirements document. --- eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 17:12:12 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu Sep 23 17:00:12 1993 Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, rdp@butler.cps.com From: rdp@butler.cps.com (Ronald D. Parker) Message-ID: <2ca20e63.butler@butler.cps.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, d.love@dl.ac.uk Subject: emacs tags technology for web-like systems? > Does anyone have anything to allow the use of tags files in emacs > with web-like systems (I'm interested in noweb, but I guess anything > else would adapt straightforwardly). What I have in mind is > treating code modules/chunks or whatever you call them on the same > basis as identifiers. While we are at it is there a good emacs ``mode'' for editing WEB text or one of its derivations? -- Ron Parker Butler Manufacturing Company BMA Tower -- 4th Floor rdp@butler.cps.com Post Office Box 419917 Phone: (816) 968-3537 Kansas City, Missouri 64141-0917 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 17:17:10 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 17:16:15 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, koopman@ctc.com CC: marcus@x4u.desy.de Message-ID: <00972FBD.CF4A8180.11593@SHSU.edu> Subject: RE: Can the LitProg Archives be made searchable? On Thu, 23 Sep 93 17:02:49 -0400, Michael G. Koopman posted in response to Marcus Speh's earlier inquiry: > How about keywords and comment fields. Perhaps starting a discussion > regarding the meaning of relevant terms would lead to a glossary of terms > after some likely heated disagreements. Then, the "final" glossary - > perhaps three months hence - could lend itself to a classification scheme. > A "lucky" person could then add the keywords and comment fields which apply > to the archive. The glossary could go with the FAQ and those with enough > concern for their postings could attempt to fit keywords to their new > posts. If the glossary is sensible, good keywords should be obvious. How about a complete string search of everything in the archives?? I'm compiling the indices right now (and will let them continue as I'm about to leave for the day). Come in to the LitProg Archives (guess I better re-name them the LitProg/comp.programming.literate Archives soon) on the Gopher server on Niord.SHSU.edu (192.92.115.8, port 70) Literate Programming Library/ Archives of the LitProg list/ Search LitProg Archives (**experimental**) and see what ensues. Please, please, please, please don't try this until after 2100 CDT (-5 GMT) as it may take at least that much longer to create the indices required for this to work (actually, it's kinda neat how we got this to work under VMS). I am building the archives so that you can enter a string (which will hopefully be found) and it will report back the "Archive-Date:" of the post. Once I see how it handles the task, I will re-build this based on the "Subject:" or "From:" fields (if you have a preference for any of these, let me know; "Keyword:", while nice, is not a standard RFC 822 header field, so the available choices are: From: Date: To: -- (NO!! -- sez me) Subject: Archive-Date: (a field we enter in all of our archives) Have fun (and hope I don't kill te machine as it indexes!!), George %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% George D. Greenwade, Ph.D. Bitnet: BED_GDG@SHSU Department of Economics and Business Analysis THEnet: SHSU::BED_GDG College of Business Administration Voice: (409) 294-1266 P. O. Box 2118 FAX: (409) 294-3612 Sam Houston State University Internet: bed_gdg@SHSU.edu Huntsville, TX 77341 bed_gdg%SHSU.decnet@relay.the.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 17:28:24 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 18:29:15 EST From: "Lewis Perin" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, perin@cumc.cornell.edu Message-ID: <66557.perin@cumc.cornell.edu> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Big Programs & Separate files & Make & Incremental Compilation & Web In Message Thu, 23 Sep 1993 18:33:25 GMT, mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) writes: > [...] I would certainly like not to have to recompile all of the > code. > >There is a simple method which accomplishes this and even more: if you change >only the documentation, you need not recompile anything. As your programming >scale goes up, this feature gradually changes from being pleasant to being >essential. > > [details of exactly how he does it] Unless I'm missing something this doesn't conquer the problem. Those of us who don't get their code right the first time (disgusting wretches we, failing even with LP tools;-) tend to rely on our tangles inserting hints to the target language debugger as to where in the web the source code can be found. Trouble is, change the documentation significantly and the locations will change. If the source code hasn't changed but has been relocated in the web, a tangle smart enough to notice this can either go ahead and fool make (good) and the debugger (bad), or it can let the compilation steps cascade. Right? Cheers, ______________________________________________________ __ perin@cumc.cornell.edu (212)746-2946 | |_ \ / : Lew Perin |__ |__ \/\/ : Home: (201)435-2679 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 20:03:34 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 20:57:37 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9309240057.AA06869@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, steve@cache.crc.ricoh.com CC: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Subject: Re: Readable programs -- an alternative to Web, Tangle and Weave Here is a short reply : IMHO you are missing a lot if you just rely on commenting. Just try nuweb or noweb. You also get to arrange your code in a more understandable way (good for during the initial design phase). Need to live with LaTeX though! I like the printed stuff but in your case if you are using DOS/Windows try WinWordWEB, this is a WYSIWYG system. May be others are working on a unix/X system. This way you dont have to make up a strict commenting system and remember how to use it! Osman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 20:52:33 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 11:39:09 +1000 (EST) From: Mark Ng Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, raemn@KITTYHAWK.AERO.RMIT.OZ.AU Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? To: LitProg@shsu.edu, norman@bellcore.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I confess that my tool, noweb, is at best of poor quality when You say that it is of poor quality but rest assured that it is beging put to good use :) > i) Making a good-quality literate program is 3-4 times as expensive > as just making a working program using literate-programming tools. I could not agree more > ii) I have been unable to develop really good literate programs > without peer review. I've used noweb for some time now and I enjoy using it because it is so simple. I went through most the different litprog tools and found noweb best suit to my task of multiple languages in one file. Thank you for your contribution of noweb as a tool :) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Ng email: raemn@kittyhawk.aero.rmit.oz.au Assistant Systems Administrator Phone: +61 3 6603142 Department of AeroSpace Engineering Fax : +61 3 6602053 "All is hidden in the citadel of the heart..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 21:10:02 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: gurari@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (Eitan Gurari) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, gurari@NEWS.CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: <9309232309.AA01271@rhinoceros.cis.ohio-state.edu> Date: 23 Sep 93 15:09:18 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Literate programming offers me a natural medium for 1. Communicating information between different phases of code development 2. Arguing with myself about my code by explaining its meaning. Since an explanation of subject matter is a description of an understanding of the subject matter, a programmer who provides an explanation for code must closely inspect his or her understanding of the code as the description of this understanding of the code is being produced. Such a mode of operation encourages programmers to take a critical look at their code, and it results in code that is prepared with a lot of care. Macro-based abstractions with natural language oriented titles for code segments, fragmentation of code segments, prose, figures, and mechanisms to structure documents are the ingredients that are important to me in the medium that I am using. I consider it a worthless effort to polish the exposition and appearance of literate programs that are not intended to be consumed by others (i.e., documents that are not intended for peer review---see norman's note). Consequently, documents that serve as literate programs to me might be cryptic creatures to other readers. -eitan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 23:12:51 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: karna@pobox.upenn.edu (Animesh Karna) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, karna@POBOX.UPENN.EDU Subject: Web-like system that doesn't use TeX? Message-ID: <149307@netnews.upenn.edu> Date: 24 Sep 93 01:58:37 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU One of the things stopping me from using Web (or CWeb) is that the "readable" output is in TeX. Does anyone know of a version of Web/CWeb/something similar that can produced other kinds of output -- like plain text or RTF or something like that? Thanks! -- Definition of the PC Movement: It's what happens when Liberals start acting like Conservatives. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 00:33:18 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 13:22:03 +0800 From: Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, s925578@hp720a.csc.cuhk.hk Message-ID: <48129.s925578@mailserv.cuhk.hk> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, karna@pobox.upenn.edu Subject: RE:Web-like system that doesn't use TeX? In Message 24 Sep 93 01:58:37 GMT, karna@pobox.upenn.edu (Animesh Karna) writes: >One of the things stopping me from using Web (or CWeb) is that the >"readable" output is in TeX. Does anyone know of a version of >Web/CWeb/something similar that can produced other kinds of output -- like >plain text or RTF or something like that? > >Thanks! > >-- >Definition of the PC Movement: It's what happens when Liberals start acting >like Conservatives. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 02:41:12 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309240638.AA73563@sopwith.hursley.ibm.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Literate programming - would like to unsubscribe Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 07:28:33 +0000 From: Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, nigel_jones@VNET.IBM.COM I am not sure how to unsubscribe to this mailing list. Sorry to disrupt the conversation.. but can anyone tell me how? Many thanks Nigel _______________________________________________________________________________ Nigel Jones Mailpoint 183 |Internet email: nigel_jones@vnet.ibm.com DirectTalk/6000 Development |Telephone : +44 962 840018 x5259 Computer Aided Telephony Systems|VM :JONESN@HURSLEY / 724-8301 ( ->enter 5259) IBM UK Laboratories Ltd, Hursley|AIX:jonesn@b52.hursley.ibm.com (when prompted) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 03:02:42 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309240725.AA19884@petrus.grenoble.hp.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, aaron@halcyon.com Subject: Re: Subscription to mailing list LitProg Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 09:25:45 +0200 From: Dominique Dumont / GND Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, domi@PETRUS.GRENOBLE.HP.COM In message <27qvgt$5je@nwfocus.wa.com> you write: > [...] > >> flowchart). The programmers demanded, and got, a tool which would auto- > >> matically generate the SDLs from the code, thereby ensuring that the SDLs > >> were always up-to-date. :] > > > >Shouldn't it be the other way ? From SDL to code . > > What difference does it make? > If you think in code, write in code and generate documentation. > If you think in documentation, write in doc and generate the code. > If you don't think, don't write. :) > IMO, the SDL is more synthetic. You have an overall view of the functionnality of your future program and its interractions with the outside world (OS, other program...). It's easier to think with this form. And if the code is generated from the SDL, you're done when the SDL is done and you don't have to care about a lot of details needed to write your code. I must state that I'm not yet experienced in writing programs then my opinion can be wrong. The feeling I have is drawn from my past experience in chip systhesis from a VHDL model. That worked fine, but I would have loved to have VHDL generated from the state machine I drawed for the chip. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Dominique Dumont ^^^^^^ Email: Dominique_Dumont@grenoble.hp.com / O O \ HP Desk: Dominique DUMONT / HP6300/UM ( \____/ ) Address : HEWLETT PACKARD, 38053 Grenoble Cedex 09 FRANCE \______/ Tel,Telnet: (33) 76 62 57 24 - 7 779 5724 Telex,Fax: 980 124 - (33) 76 62 53 20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 03:19:54 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: ziegler@mpi-sb.mpg.de (Joachim Ziegler) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ziegler@MPI-SB.MPG.DE Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 10:15:42 +0200 Message-ID: <9309240815.AA01015@mpii01040.ag1.mpi-sb.mpg.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mfy@SLI.COM Subject: Re: Big Programs & Separate files & Make & Incremental Compilation & Web M. Yoder writes: > Inscribe generates some number of files when it is run over its source (in what > WEB users would call tangle mode, though this verb isn't appropriate here). Can anyone please explain me what "Inscribe" is? ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 04:12:05 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d ... 415-336-0742) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, zen@DEATH.CORP.SUN.COM Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: 24 Sep 93 01:15:30 Message-ID: To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <9309231641.AA21487@dawn.cs.rice.edu> preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) writes: > koopman@ctc.com writes: > >Some of the webs written for literate programming tools do not appear > >to be enhanced expositions of the principles underlying the behavior > >of the program (while including the code scraps). Such leading, > >literate program authors could be considered hypocrit infidels not > >practicing what they seem to preach > Hmm. Certainly nuweb (I wrote it) is worse in this respect than any > other tools I've examined. So why did I write such an illiterate program? > I have to consider it incomplete. It'll get more complete as I spend more > effort on it. In the meantime, I (and others) are able to use it without > worrying about whether I've finished describing it all. It's just a tool, > not an end in itself. A hammer doesn't need a dissertation attached to > be useful. Talk about justifying your actions... you could say the same thing about any tool or program -- they're just not finished. I've had to use, modify, and throw away countless programs that aren't commented or are poorly written, just because the author(s) thought that it wasn't worth the effort or that they'd get around to it later. One of the worse things you can do to a program is to comment/document it (or "literalize" it?) *after* it's a working piece of code. IMHO, writing literate or even just a "good" program (if you can consider a program to be good if it doesn't follow the literate standards set by knuth and others) very nearly *requires* you to have as good design as possible from the start, and then to follow the same standards in every phase of the code that you want to have when it's a finished product at the end; tacking it on at the end is something that is almost never gotten around to, and is almost guaranteed to be of lesser quality than something that was done right the first time. > I (and others) are able to use it without worrying about whether I've > finished describing it all Why ever bother making it literate, then, if it works fine without it? -- d ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 04:25:24 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d ... 415-336-0742) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, zen@DEATH.CORP.SUN.COM Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: 24 Sep 93 01:29:49 Message-ID: To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <9309231658.AA25879@mailee.bellcore.com> norman@bellcore.com writes: > ii) I have been unable to develop really good literate programs > without peer review. Why is that? Is it too hard to recognize literacy when seen, or is it that you don't have enough practice, the tools aren't there, or ...? -- d ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 04:25:32 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d ... 415-336-0742) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, zen@DEATH.CORP.SUN.COM Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: 24 Sep 93 01:24:53 Message-ID: To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <27qkip$fa3@overload.lbl.gov> bks@s27w007.pswfs.gov (Bradley K. Sherman) writes: > The literate programmer... I would hope, in addition to everything else, the LP would be concerned that programs written in the literate style actually work (but see below, I don't know). > The literate programmer knows that copyright protection of > source code is absurd; knowing the right approach to > the problem --and which problem to approach-- is everything. Copyrights are absurd? Do you mean algorithm copyrighting or that *all* code should be free to everyone else? What does the latter have to do with LP'ing? > The literate programmer is a poet not a novelist. Poetry can obscure meanings. I'd rather read code written in the style of dickens rather than e.e. cummings... to me, I think the key is functionality and clarity first, not style. I wonder if people here view LP'ing as more of an art form, something that has inherent usefulness, or as a vehicle to produce "better" (whatever that means) programs. -- d ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 06:53:25 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Subject: Re: Readable programs -- an alternative to Web, Tangle and Weave Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 10:55:17 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU >>>>> On 23 Sep 1993 18:03:01 GMT, steve@crc.ricoh.COM (Stephen R. Savitzky) said: |> My coding standards for readable programs are: [..very interesting stuff deleted..] Hey, this is another interesting article--as far as I know the first time that the word of "coding standard" comes up in connection with literate programming, though we've been discussing litprog 'habits' at length in the past [I checked with the archives through gorgeous gopher search, only one entry found which refers to pretty-printing of fortran output using sed(1) :-) ]. I have often thought this is something we should have-- I (and many of my colleagues) did profit from such a document for c++ (called RULES AND RECOMMENDATIONS --> ftp.desy.de:/pub/c++/misc/c++.rules.ps), though any standardization document is (and should) usually subject to heated discussion. Now, is it heresy to think of a "coding standard", as a set of minimal rules for the practicing lierate programmer? Clearly, such a text should be independent of the particular litprog tool--for the same reason it may support unifying tendencies, which I would welcome. -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Marcus Speh, II.Inst.Theor.Physik,Luruper Chaussee 149, 22761 Hamburg,Germany Phone: +49-40 8998 2178, Fax: +49-40 8998 2267, Private: +49-40 801392 E-mail: , ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 06:53:32 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Subject: LitProg (experimental) archive search on WWW Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 11:00:05 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU I have put a link to this gopher index on the LitProg home page on the world wide web. It's fast! [for info, refer to ---> ftp.desy.de:/pub/www/projects/Announce/LitProg.txt] -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Marcus Speh, II.Inst.Theor.Physik,Luruper Chaussee 149, 22761 Hamburg,Germany Phone: +49-40 8998 2178, Fax: +49-40 8998 2267, Private: +49-40 801392 E-mail: , ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 06:53:36 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: cgra@btma74.nohost.nodomain (Chris Gray) Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: <2014@se.alcbel.be> Date: 24 Sep 93 11:04:05 GMT Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, cgra@se.alcbel.be To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <9309222034.AA13126@sgi84.ctc.com>, koopman@sgi84.ctc.com (Michael G. Koopman) writes: >Some of the webs written for literate programming tools do not appear >to be enhanced expositions of the principles underlying the behavior >of the program (while including the code scraps). Such leading, >literate program authors could be considered hypocrit infidels not >practicing what they seem to preach (false names are used to protect >the innocent). A comprehensive and well structured presentation >(printed document, hypertext, other) that compiles to realize the >description is what I expect from literate programming. To which norman@bellcore.com, author of noweb, retorts: > >[...]I tolerate my ugly ``literate'' programs because in my work a program >is seldom an artifact of the first importance. Far more often the >paper is what matters (and what gets polished). Well that's a pretty straightforward admission that to this guy at least literate programming is just an academic fad which enables you to get papers published, not a serious proposal to enhance the quality of our programs (and our lives). If that's true then I'm wasting my time reading this stuff and I should get back to work mungeing my design documentation into comments in the source code. Apparently preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) also feels his ears burning: >Hmm. Certainly nuweb (I wrote it) is worse in this respect than any >other tools I've examined. So why did I write such an illiterate program? >I have to consider it incomplete. It'll get more complete as I spend more >effort on it. In the meantime, I (and others) are able to use it without >worrying about whether I've finished describing it all. It's just a tool, >not an end in itself. A hammer doesn't need a dissertation attached to >be useful. To which I say: phooey (tm). Games and demo's aside, all programs are tools. Lotus 1-2-3 is a tool, Cubase and KCS are tools. The programs which programmers call ``tools'' are the ones which they use to make other programs. It is precisely these programs which people are most likely to feel the need to hack into and rearrange and modify in order to provide support for their company documentation scheme, network file server, GUI, and Nintendo Power Glove. These are programs written by programmers for programmers, and they _should_ be exemplary. __________________________________________________________________________ Chris Gray cgra@se.alcbel.be Compu$erve: 100065.2102 Ignore my broken mailer - the addresses above are the only truth __________________________________________________________________________ ``phooey'' is a trade mark of shf@netcom.com (Stuart Ferguson) Disclaimer: the author is a total hypocrite whose programs arouse much comment by containing little. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 07:07:24 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 08:02:47 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9309241202.AA07709@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, zen@death.corp.sun.com.ae.ge.com.ae.ge.com CC: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? >>>>> On 24 Sep 93 01:15:30, zen@death.corp.sun.com.ae.ge.com (d ... 415-336-0742) said: d> Talk about justifying your actions... you could say the same thing about d> any tool or program -- they're just not finished. I've had to use, d> modify, and throw away countless programs that aren't commented or are d> poorly written, just because the author(s) thought that it wasn't worth d> the effort or that they'd get around to it later. One of the worse d> things you can do to a program is to comment/document it (or d> "literalize" it?) *after* it's a working piece of code. IMHO, writing d> literate or even just a "good" program (if you can consider a program to d> be good if it doesn't follow the literate standards set by knuth and d> others) very nearly *requires* you to have as good design as possible d> from the start, and then to follow the same standards in every phase of d> the code that you want to have when it's a finished product at the end; d> tacking it on at the end is something that is almost never gotten around d> to, and is almost guaranteed to be of lesser quality than something that d> was done right the first time. I can think of one reason to literalize it: so that it may the first example for a new user, and also you tend to find bugs or better ways of doing the same thing, or so that you can, at a later time, understand what you did without spending a lot of time. Even though Preston(nuweb's author) thought nuweb was not literate, I had no problem with it. It was an example of how to use the tool, and I was able to understand what he did even though I am not a programmer (engineer)! > I (and others) are able to use it without worrying about whether I've > finished describing it all d> Why ever bother making it literate, then, if it works fine without it? Same comment as above. Osman Osman F. Buyukisik | GE Aricraft Engines | ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 07:44:48 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 07:44:38 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, nigel_jones@VNET.IBM.COM Message-ID: <00973037.1EE57DC0.13849@SHSU.edu> Subject: RE: Literate programming - would like to unsubscribe READ THIS POSTING, PLEASE On Fri, 24 Sep 93 07:28:33 +0000, Nigel Jones posted: > I am not sure how to unsubscribe to this mailing list. Sorry to disrupt the > conversation.. but can anyone tell me how? As list owner, I've unsubscribed Nigel. As promised, here is a second (modified, much shorter) posting of my message of a few days ago. --George =========================================================================== Given that the comp.programming.literate newsgroup has been created and it has been proven that an efficient gateway between mail and news exists, I am sure some subscribers to LitProg will elect to drop their mail subscription in favor of the newsgroup. To avoid misdirected posts to either the list or the newsgroup in your attempts to unsubscribe, please send a MAIL message to: LISTSERV@SHSU.BITNET (LISTSERV@SHSU.edu) -- or -- LitProg-Request@SHSU.edu stating in the body of the MAIL message: SIGNOFF LitProg %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% % Please do NOT send the SIGNOFF message to the list address, % % LitProg@SHSU.BITNET (LitProg@SHSU.edu), as this is the % % redistribution address for the list. All posting to LitProg % % are distributed to its worldwide list of subscribers, as % % well as to the comp.programming.literate newsgroup. % % % % Please note that the LISTSERV which serves LitProg is MAIL % % oriented only and is not conventional interactive LISTSERV. % %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% If, for some reason, LISTSERV cannot handle your request automagically, it will be forwarded to me (promise!!) for my manual attention. Also, any mail enqueued to LitProg prior to your signing off which is still enqueued for you will continue to be delivered until the queue clears (generally, you should receive nothing more within three days (if at all), give or take, once you receive confirmation that you have been removed). As always, I thank each of you for your interest in our services and retain my open offer to discuss any and all ideas you might have for enhancing them. Regards, George %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% George D. Greenwade, Ph.D. Bitnet: BED_GDG@SHSU Department of Economics and Business Analysis THEnet: SHSU::BED_GDG College of Business Administration Voice: (409) 294-1266 P. O. Box 2118 FAX: (409) 294-3612 Sam Houston State University Internet: bed_gdg@SHSU.edu Huntsville, TX 77341 bed_gdg%SHSU.decnet@relay.the.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 09:02:11 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 08:59:58 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9309241359.AA09604@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, zen@death.corp.sun.com Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? I wrote: >I have to consider it [nuweb] incomplete. >It'll get more complete as I spend more effort on it. and zen@death.corp.sun.com (somebody?) writes: >Talk about justifying your actions... you could say the same thing about >any tool or program -- they're just not finished. Of course I justify my actions; what did you expect? And nuweb does keep improving, both in functionality and documentation. When it's finished, I won't work on it any more. >One of the worse >things you can do to a program is to comment/document it (or >"literalize" it?) *after* it's a working piece of code. Why? It may not turn out as well as a beutiful example, worked up from scratch, but it won't hurt the code. In the case of nuweb, I wrote the spec first, then an initial cut at the code in CWEB. Once it would handle itself, I translated the web into nuweb and continued from there (why? as an experiment to see what it was like to use nuweb.) At some point, I said to myself "This is cool, I like it, I wonder if others will?" and I started giving it away. This garnered a lot of comments and ideas as more people used it (and modified it) and I've been able to build some of the better ideas into the system. Eventually it'll settle down, as it either approaches perfection or bumps up against the basic limitations of its approach. When one these things happens, I'll either rewrite it, rationalizing some of the code, or I'll chunk it and begin using a better tool. >Why ever bother making it literate, then, if it works fine without it? I wrote it in nuweb (and CWEB initially) so I could practice using web, so I could experiment with different ways of explaining things, so I (and readers) could benefit from the indices and crossreferences and free code arrangment, and so I could take advantage of the features of Latex to help explain my code. Preston Briggs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 10:00:04 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: "Edward M. Robinson" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Robinson@UH.EDU Message-ID: <199309241457.AA28832@Menudo.UH.EDU> Subject: "Literizing" programs To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 09:57:23 -0500 (CDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following caught my eye since I am working on something similar. Osman F Buyukisik wrote : > >I can think of one reason to literalize it: ... What thoughts do you have on the merits of "literizing" programs? For example, I am working on the skeleton portion of Berkely YACC to have it perform some additional actions. Since the skeleton was, probably, never meant for human consumption, I have decided to rewrite it in FWEB. My hope is that in the future it will be easier to modify and enhance. The questions that persist in nagging me are "Is this worth it?" and "Are there any tools (free GNU stuff please, I am but a poor RA :-) out there to aid in this?" Any ideas? -- Ed Robinson Robinson@uh.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 11:33:28 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 12:28:26 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9309241628.AA08526@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Robinson@UH.EDU CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: "Literizing" programs The only tools that I know are free! nuweb,noweb,fweb,cweb,spider,... Also there are a couple of emacs modes for webs. I like auctex and nuweb mode. I think that it will pay off in a big way if you literalize your programs. Better yet start using them in the design phase. Nowdays I do not use any language by itself but with nuweb. There are some functional languages (like haskell) that have inverse comment method (every line is a comment unless it starts with a '>' char). That is better than regualr comments but still misses on index,xref, and ability to write your code parts in any order you want. Osman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 12:20:34 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d ... 415-336-0742) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, zen@DEATH.CORP.SUN.COM Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: 24 Sep 1993 16:32:27 GMT Message-ID: To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <9309241359.AA09604@dawn.cs.rice.edu> preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) writes: > I wrote: > >I have to consider it [nuweb] incomplete. > >It'll get more complete as I spend more effort on it. > and zen@death.corp.sun.com (somebody? That's me!) writes: > >Talk about justifying your actions... you could say the same thing about > >any tool or program -- they're just not finished. > Of course I justify my actions; what did you expect? No less, of course. The point I was trying to make was that your justification was being hypocritical to the (*grin* -- well, *my* ideal, of course!) ideal of literate programming. > >One of the worse > >things you can do to a program is to comment/document it (or > >"literalize" it?) *after* it's a working piece of code. > Why? It may not turn out as well as a beutiful example, worked up > from scratch, but it won't hurt the code. It almost certainly will. IMO, literalizing the code is an integral part of the design and coding process, something that grows as the program does. It helps you write a better program; that's the point. When you try to go back post facto and slap it in, you have several problems (off the top o' my head): 1) It probably won't get done. Very rarely are working programs rewritten -- time is too much of a factor. 2) If, as is often the case with most programs, it doesn't do what you want, you have to start again from scratch, then you never get around to writing a good program. 3) You lose the advantage of doing it right from the start; if you accept the premise that the program will be better, both from a design and coding standpoint if literalized, then you lose both the extra time you take to do the job twice *and* the advantages of design that you gain from the literalizing. 4) WRT quality, it will be all the worse for not being literal (until you run back and make it right.) People won't use it or accept it as much, and the original programmer(s) won't have incentive to improve it. 5) If no one writes literate programs, then no one will see the advantages. You throw something together, it works, and everyone is happy, right? Well, "works" is a very subjective thing. If I write a program I don't usually want it just to work for me. I want others to be able to use it, modify it, and understand it. To me, that's all part of the joy and purpose of programming. It's early in the morning, but there are lots of other reasons... > In the case of nuweb, I wrote the spec first, then an initial cut at the > code in CWEB. Once it would handle itself, I translated the web into nuweb > and continued from there (why? as an experiment to see what it was like to > use nuweb.) At some point, I said to myself "This is cool, I like it, > I wonder if others will?" and I started giving it away. This garnered > a lot of comments and ideas as more people used it (and modified it) > and I've been able to build some of the better ideas into the system. You would have gotten more and better comments if people could have *read* what you wrote and how you implemented your decisions. Someone said that they couldn't write a literate program without peer review; I claim that in most nearly all cases that you're not going to get that peer review if you don't write it literally. > Eventually it'll settle down, as it either approaches perfection or > bumps up against the basic limitations of its approach. When one these things > happens, I'll either rewrite it, rationalizing some of the code, or I'll > chunk it and begin using a better tool. *sigh* That's what happens to code. People write it, use it, then move on. Nothing ever gets done *right*, it's all just another justification for not literalizing it. If you had done this right, I maintain that not only would the chances of you scrapping it and starting from fresh be greatly decreased, you would learn a lot more on how to design and implement this sort of program. A quick reference -- have you read knuth and his experiences, when he first starts to program a large project, and why he believes in literate programming? Going back to your other article: > It's just a tool, > not an end in itself. A hammer doesn't need a dissertation attached to > be useful. It's just an amazing statement, esp. on this newsgroup. But to address it again, your program isn't a hammer. It has lots of features, lots of ideas packed into it, lots of ways to use it by lots of people using lots of systems. But even that lowly hammer needs to be made right; constructing a good hammer means you have to consider what it's going to be used for, to choose the right materials. It means you have to communicate to the user what it can and should be used for (claw vs sledge hammers, for instance). I find it amazingly ironic that a program to do literate program isn't written in a literate manner, but far more ironic that the programmer behind it thinks that it was the right thing to do. -- d ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 14:26:12 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mfy@SLI.COM Subject: Re: Big Programs & Separate files & Make & Incremental Compilation & Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 19:42:16 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Lewis Perrin wrote, in response to my deathless prose: >Unless I'm missing something this doesn't conquer the problem. Those of us >who don't get their code right the first time (disgusting wretches we, >failing even with LP tools;-) tend to rely on our tangles inserting hints to >the target language debugger as to where in the web the source code can be >found. Trouble is, change the documentation significantly and the locations >will change. > >If the source code hasn't changed but has been relocated in the web, a >tangle smart enough to notice this can either go ahead and fool make (good) >and the debugger (bad), or it can let the compilation steps cascade. Right? You did miss something, but only because I omitted to tell you. Inscribe automatically inserts #line directives for generated C and C++ files, so the debugger's source is the Inscribe source in those cases; I call this "direct debuggability," which may be my private jargon, but I think I appropriated the term from people in this forum. It would be simple to generate equivalent directives for other languages if their compilers paid attention to them, e.g. "pragma Line" for an Ada compiler. Also, I have an Emacs function which lets me find the Inscribe line which corresponds to line N of a given produced file: thus if the compiler says I have an error on line 32 of Pascal file foo.p, I find some occurrence of source for foo.p and invoke "C-Z g" with an argument of 32, and it goes to the appropriate place. This is crude but quite effective and reliable. -- Michael F. Yoder [mfy@sli.com] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 14:33:49 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 14:32:50 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: bg@dymaxion.ns.ca CC: litprog@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <00973070.255050C0.15795@SHSU.edu> Subject: RE: VMS Clip via SHSU gopher (Was:DOWNFor the news distribution) On Fri, 24 Sep 1993 15:25:04 ADT, Ben Armstrong posted privately: > I tried to access the VAX/VMS entry under Clip and got "Nothing Available". > What's the problem? When I pulled the files over from sun01.info.wau.nl sometime earlier this year, the files were present for the ms_dos subdirectory only (I inquired at the time and someone -- I don't think it was Eric van Ammers, though -- told me that there was a problem with the VMS distribution and it had been removed. I just checked its host and the files were present in the vax_vms subdirectory, and I fetched them, but..... Some of the files are VMS executables (i.e., they should possess some specific RMS file characteristics) and I tried to tweak them every way I know of and was unable to get any of the executables to run under VMS (5.4-2). By default, some of these files will not be gopherable (at least until I verify that they work somehow); if you just *have* to have them (although they are, IMO, broken -- at least until someone enlightens me on how to run them under VMS) they are available for anonymous ftp retrieval from Niord.SHSU.edu in [FILESERV.CLIP.CLIP-1_0.VAX_VMS]. Might anyone know where a VMS set for CLiP resides so I can get t into the archives here?? --George ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 14:58:14 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: bart@cs.tamu.edu (Bart Childs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bart@CS.TAMU.EDU Subject: Big Projects and What Literate Programming Means Date: 24 Sep 1993 19:30:49 GMT Message-ID: <27vht9$171@TAMUTS.TAMU.EDU> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Some comments by Bart Childs on recent postings. I agree with the characteristics that Bradley Sherman gave for literate programming. I have written several introductory documents on this that we use for introductory purposes. They are available for anonymous ftp from: ftp.cs.tamu.edu /pub/tex-web/web/DOCs is the directory. I will email them to individuals who cannot ftp. They are too long for posting here. Bradley noted that literate programs are written for other readers. That is easily overlooked (Norman Ramsey was eloquent about peer review in the LitProg discussion list.) Review will not automatically convert programs into publications (as in tenure and promotion documents.) He used the phrase ``tight grammatical English'' and there have been a number of suggestions that may be over simplified by just ``hypertextize the specifications and the other 2167A documents.'' Samuel Johnson wrote: ``What is written without effort is in general read without pleasure.'' The point is that quality documentation is never free or accidental. It takes work, work, ... Hypertext links to specs... can be valuable but is no replacement for real documentation of the thoughts behind programming decisions. Foster@jed.cs.uidaho.edu stated ``Why not include a formal proof that the code has been verified, along with an informal description of what it does (you know, traditional ... Before everyone gives the usual complaints against formal verification, let me remind you that 1) they don't matter, we're discussing literate programming and a proof should be part of this if it exists; ...'' Of course, if the proof exists it should be a part of the documentation or as a minimum a ``reference'' to its availability. Another item of the same type is that graphics and EVERY other aid to understanding how, why, ... should be part of a literate program. All that takes is work, work, ... (editing is work). What portion of our codes could be formally proven...? I guess that I am a cynic on that and would guess ... well, a small percentage. Norman Ramsey and Preston Briggs have been modest about their work. Both have made statements about `simple tools.' Edsger Dijkstra repeatedly points out ``if you want to make a user interface more difficult to use, add functionality to it.'' Ramsey and Briggs have created simpler tools (than DEK's original ...) I think the addition of the capabilities of multiple output files is a typical example of added functionality that is so easily handled otherwise. Sure, there is value in having a script that is associated with a huge code in the same file, but if you change (say) the documentation of the script that should not imply the code needs recompilation too (in a make sense). There have been several postings over the past year that indicate a desire for perturbations to major changes in LP systems. I think we don't know for sure what they should be like and we need a lot of documented use of the existing systems. I have not found that WEB (original, F, or C) is difficult for (even) students to learn. It takes a little training. We can't be sure of the contributions of literate programming until we write lots of programs, document their maintenance, and make them available for study. Norman Ramsey and Carla Marceau's paper (see the LitProg archives) is still one of the few papers about using WEB in a professional environment, several programmers ... Stephen Savitzky stated: ``My approach to literate programming is to write programs that can be read, rather than the Web approach of writing programs that can be processed to make them readable. I do this because I rarely, if ever, get a listing; I much prefer to edit on the screen. I want my programs to be as readable as possible when I do. ...'' I am not saying that his codes are not wonderful expositions, but this indicates the goal is not the future reader, but his instant self gratification (apologies, if that is taken as a flame.) Incidentally, there has been some previous discussion about the index or lack thereof in some LP systems. (Indexes of variable names obviously require knowledge of the HLL.) Some users have stated the use of the `formalized procedures of pseudo-code' (my words) as the greatest value of the whole LP process. I can understand this opinion at writing time, but years later at maintenance it will be greatly diminished. The use of the `formalized procedures of pseudo-code' is only a part of literate programming. Aaron (aaron@halcyon.com) stated the status quo: ``What difference does it make? If you think in code, write in code and generate documentation. If you think in documentation, write in doc and generate the code. If you don't think, don't write. :)'' The commonly stated statistic varies from 60% to 80% for the cost of the maintenance portion of a code in its lifetime. I think that literate programming can aid that. Robert T. McLay started a discussion with this subject: Subject: Big Programs & Separate files & Make ... He offered some numbers that I wish to correct. TeX and METAFONT are each about 25k lines of Pascal code. (Count the semicolons and realize that most Pascal code has a significant number of lines without them too.) Both are written in the monolithic form required by the Pascal compilers of the early 1980's. I recommend that literate programming be used in a manner that does not cause a dramatic change to the usual software life cycle for many developers. The only part that should really change is the code development part. Most developers use (something like) make and the dependencies just get one more item. Sure it slows it down a bit, but the paybacks are large in comparison (IMHO). Knuth stated it was true but never gave any statistics to prove it. He also keeps a detailed diary and could well have the data to prove it. Also see comment about Ramsey and Marceau above. Mike Yoder (mfy@sli.com) described a tool (process?) that saves significant recompiling ... Each of these should always cause a reflection on the Dijkstra quote. Is the additional complexity of another tool ... worth it? How much is the cost of the additional (wasted) compiles? >From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d ... 415-336-0742) >Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? >Date: 24 Sep 93 01:29:49 > >In article <...@mailee.bellcore.com> norman@bellcore.com writes: >> ii) I have been unable to develop really good literate programs >> without peer review. > >Why is that? Is it too hard to recognize literacy when seen, or is it >that you don't have enough practice, the tools aren't there, or ...? I think the answer is two-fold. First, we are terrible judges of our own work, whether writing, dancing, speaking, programming, ... Secondly, the process of programming is intensive and often characterized by our having tunnel vision, not being able to find a forest because we keep bumping into trees, ... I am sure there are people who can write well and don't need as much peer review. Much of Don Knuth's work would likely qualify. Careful reading of his work also shows that he gets it reviewed by as many people as he can. Most readers of this list will likely claim to be in environments where it is not practical to get said review. Zen also discusses this in a later posting and expresses the desire to know more about why certain design decisions were made. These are available for Knuth's original WEB. Some of these are couched in the large variability of Pascal compilers at the time. This same info is available for CWEB and FWEB, but not all questions will be answered. His point is made. >From: cgra@btma74.nohost.nodomain (Chris Gray) >Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? >Date: 24 Sep 93 11:04:05 GMT >... >In article <...@sgi84.ctc.com>, koopman@sgi84.ctc.com (Michael G. Koopman) >>Some of the webs written for literate programming tools do not appear >>... > >To which norman@bellcore.com, author of noweb, retorts: >> >>[...]I tolerate my ugly ``literate'' programs because in my work a program >>is seldom an artifact of the first importance. Far more often the >>paper is what matters (and what gets polished). > >Well that's a pretty straightforward admission that to this guy at least >literate programming is just an academic fad which enables you to get >papers published, not a serious proposal to enhance the quality of our M. Gray is 180 degrees out of phase. Norman has at least one paper (mentioned earlier) in LP, but his dissertation was on ``Retargettable Debuggers'' and his professional work is more in that line, distributed systems ..., I think. If literate programming is an academic fad, I would like to know the schools participating in this hype. I am sure that I would be one of the most guilty. I have taught a graduate `special topics' course on the subject twice and we are now experimenting with a freshman class. Although there are several journals that encourage papers on LP, few have appeared. Some of us are trying to change those small numbers, but fad it is not. Keywords: ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 15:50:33 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 20:28:21 GMT Message-ID: <14129@apusapus.demon.co.uk> From: tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk (Trevor Jenkins) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tfj@APUSAPUS.DEMON.CO.UK To: LitProg@shsu.edu CC: karna@pobox.upenn.edu Subject: Re: Web-like system that doesn't use TeX? In message <149307@netnews.upenn.edu> you write: > One of the things stopping me from using Web (or CWeb) is that the > "readable" output is in TeX. Does anyone know of a version of > Web/CWeb/something similar that can produced other kinds of output -- like > plain text or RTF or something like that? I fail to see :-) how RTF is any more readable than TeX. The intent is to process the woven TeX to produce the real readable output which is the listing. As for plain text why not use the .w file. I only have TeX installed on my PC at home but I still use Literate Programming for my work as I have cweave/ctangle installed at the office. Whilst at the office rely on printing out the .w and only occasionally do I actually use cweave and TeX to produce the formal listings. Regards, Trevor. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trevor Jenkins Re: "deemed!" 134 Frankland Rd, Croxley Green, RICKMANSWORTH, WD3 3AU, England email: tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk phone: +44 (0)923 776436 radio: G6AJG "We need bigger and better books", Jimmy Tingle (Damned in the USA) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 15:52:32 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 15:49:06 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9309242049.AA19181@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: What does literate programming mean to you? zen@death.corp.sun.com writes a lot of stuff. I won't quote it. He says I'm a hypocrite for writing nuweb in a less-than-perfectly-literate fashion. I disagree. I'm not preaching LP, I'm just a user. I wrote nuweb and I use it. Since I also boss some programmers, I make them use nuweb. Some of my friends here use it, and many people in the newsgroup use it. Why? Because it's got a nice combination of features. It provides value at very little cost. The question of how it's coded is an entirely orthogonal issue. In fact, I'd say there are 3 orthogonal issues here (and these apply to nuweb, noweb, cweb, ...) 1) The "language" definition -- the features (and misfeatures) of the system 2) The actual collection of tools that support the language (in the case of web, the tangle and weave programs, and maybe the TeX processor and Pascal compiler) 3) How each of the tools is implemented The interesting part to me, and perhaps others, is behind door number 1. Door #2 is also interesting to many people who'd like to use nuweb (or noweb or cweb or whatever). They actually want to run the code! As a user, I have an interest in this part too. Door #3 is, in the case of nuweb, quite dull. It's a straightforward programming task and I wouldn't hesitate to give it to any undergraduate. When I give out copies of nuweb and people send me comments, they send me, by and large, suggestions and complaints about the language and capabilities. This is great; just the sort of feedback I'm interested in. Sometimes people point out portability problems, usually with fixes. That's great too; we fix them and get back to the interesting questions. Nobody has commented on how I implement my state machines or how I parse command-line arguments or how I allocate memory. Why? Because those're just boring details. I'm not trying to teach people how to program, I'm trying to learn what makes a nice language for LP. >have you read knuth and his experiences, when he first starts to program >a large project, and why he believes in literate programming? Yes, I believe I've read everything Knuth has published about programming. I also believe I've read everything that's been published about LP. Why, praytell? Are we not to think and experiment for ourselves? I also wrote: > It's just a tool, > not an end in itself. A hammer doesn't need a dissertation attached to > be useful. and zen@death notes > It's just an amazing statement, esp. on this newsgroup. But to >address it again, your program isn't a hammer. No, it's really an experiment with the idea of hammering, kind of like a big, flat rock. It's Preston, the caveman programmer, saying "Guys, look at this! You can beat on things even harder than with your fist. Hmmm... Do you think it needs a handle? Yeah, look! It's even better." >you have to communicate to the user what it can and should be >used for (claw vs sledge hammers, for instance). But nobody knows these things, least of all me. We're all very interested in what it might be good for and we find out more all the time. And someday, someone is going to have a drastically better idea and I'm going to let nuweb die. For example, noweb has a some ideas I really like. If, after some experience, I'm persuaded that his approach is better, I'll switch. It isn't a matter of how nuweb is written, it's a matter of the language design. In fact, I could fairly easily adapt my program to handle noweb source rather than nuweb source, so I'd claim (again!) that the tool and the language are seperate entities. > I find it amazingly ironic that a program to do literate program isn't >written in a literate manner, but far more ironic that the programmer >behind it thinks that it was the right thing to do. If I wrote an assembler, I'd write it in a higher-level language. I am writing a Fortran compiler in C. Further, I don't write in either assembler or Fortran. The irony is just overwhelming!? Preston Briggs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 16:21:07 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: perin@cumc.cornell.edu (Lewis Perin) Subject: Re: Big programs, separate files, "unnecessary" recompilations Date: 24 Sep 1993 15:54:56 -0500 Message-ID: <61357.perin@cumc.cornell.edu> Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, perin@cumc.cornell.edu To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) writes: >Lewis Perrin wrote, in response to my deathless prose: (One "r" in the surname, please) >>Unless I'm missing something this doesn't conquer the problem. Those of us >>who don't get their code right the first time (disgusting wretches we, >>failing even with LP tools;-) tend to rely on our tangles inserting hints to >>the target language debugger as to where in the web the source code can be >>found. Trouble is, change the documentation significantly and the locations >>will change. >> >>If the source code hasn't changed but has been relocated in the web, a >>tangle smart enough to notice this can either go ahead and fool make (good) >>and the debugger (bad), or it can let the compilation steps cascade. Right? >You did miss something, but only because I omitted to tell you. Inscribe >automatically inserts #line directives for generated C and C++ files, so the >debugger's source is the Inscribe source in those cases; I call this "direct >debuggability," which may be my private jargon, but I think I appropriated the >term from people in this forum. It would be simple to generate equivalent >directives for other languages if their compilers paid attention to them, e.g >"pragma Line" for an Ada compiler. OK, Inscribe does what CWEB, FWEB and noweb (at least) do in this respect. Sorry, but I still don't see how this gets around the dilemma of code relocation within the web mentioned in the second paragraph of my original posting. >Also, I have an Emacs function which lets me find the Inscribe line which >corresponds to line N of a given produced file: thus if the compiler says I >have an error on line 32 of Pascal file foo.p, I find some occurrence of source >for foo.p and invoke "C-Z g" with an argument of 32, and it goes to the >appropriate place. This is crude but quite effective and reliable. Yes, but will the *debugger* find the code if the latter's been relocated without being recompiled? Cheers, ______________________________________________________ __ perin@cumc.cornell.edu (212)746-2946 | |_ \ / : Lew Perin |__ |__ \/\/ : Home: (201)435-2679 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 17:08:36 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d ... 415-336-0742) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, zen@DEATH.CORP.SUN.COM Subject: literate books 'n' stuff Date: 24 Sep 1993 21:07:31 GMT Message-ID: To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Any "must have/read" stuff out there that people would care to share? Other than donald knuth and jon bentley, that is, my two fav's for what I refer to as literate programming (I sometimes include _the mythical man month_ for a similar kind of philosophy on a strategic, rather than tactical, level; I was very pleased to see knuth include a few chapters by bentley in his recent book). I greatly appreciate the *readability* of both these authors published work (though esp. knuth can get a bit terse/dense) as well, which speaks well to their philosophy, although I wish bentley would do more than rehashing old stuff in his "software exploritorium" columns (or whatever the title is.) -- d ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 17:10:54 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 18:07:19 -0400 From: koopman@sgi84.ctc.com (Michael G. Koopman) Message-ID: <9309242207.AA06071@sgi84.ctc.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, zen@DEATH.CORP.SUN.COM CC: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Subject: What does literate programming mean to you? Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, koopman@ctc.com zen@DEATH.CORP.SUN.COM responding to Bradley K. Sherman: >> The literate programmer is a poet not a novelist. > > Poetry can obscure meanings. I'd rather read code written in the >style of dickens rather than e.e. cummings... to me, I think the key is >functionality and clarity first, not style. I wonder if people here >view LP'ing as more of an art form, something that has inherent >usefulness, or as a vehicle to produce "better" (whatever that means) >programs. Which is e.e. cummings and which is Dickens: 'C'syntax or CWEB? Certainly code scraps come on little cat paws and fog the purpose of the particular implementation. This is especially true of the seldom commented nuances; the "real" work the programmer labored over. > I would hope, in addition to everything else, the LP would be >concerned that programs written in the literate style actually work Interpolating Preston Briggs: >> It'll get more complete as I spend more effort on it. In the >>meantime, I (and others) are able to use it without worrying about >>whether I've finished describing it all. It's just a tool, not an end >>in itself. A hammer doesn't need a dissertation attached to be >>useful. I view a program as an art form analogous to a symphony. There *is* elegant code. Preston Briggs discussed one of his "unfinished" symphonies. The symphony is played for the end user. Literate programming is just an improvement in the sheet music. Mike Koopman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 18:08:35 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: perin@cumc.cornell.edu (Lewis Perin) Subject: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: 24 Sep 1993 17:26:01 -0500 Message-ID: <66822.perin@cumc.cornell.edu> Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, perin@cumc.cornell.edu To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU A certain amount of hell's broken loose on LitProg since two of our favorite tool builders have "confessed" to what some regard as sins. Perhaps an analogy will convince the Calvinists that Briggs and Ramsey do deserve the respect they've long enjoyed here. Think of literacy *outside* the realm of programming. We communicate with each other for many purposes, and to each purpose a certain amount of precision is appropriate. In informal conversation, if I tried to be as clear as I've hopefully been in some academic ventures, the person sitting next to me would stalk off impatiently before I got my first word off! Informal conversation isn't *worse* than the writing of a formal paper, it's just *different*. Where I work, they're nice enough to pay me to write C++ "even though" I use CWEB. The webs are arranged for narrative coherence up to a point (I'd go crazy if I hadn't the ability to rearrange scraps), and there are plenty of grammatical English paragraphs free of the restrictions of C++ commenting, but none of it's publishable. Sure, this is a compromise, but a tenable one in my opinion. As I remember, Kafka wrote reports for an insurance company by day, writing his lucid stories on his own time. Presumably his case reports were above average in clarity, but he'd have been fired quickly if he'd given them the care he devoted to his fiction. Cheers, ______________________________________________________ __ perin@cumc.cornell.edu (212)746-2946 | |_ \ / : Lew Perin |__ |__ \/\/ : Home: (201)435-2679 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 18:19:11 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309242315.AA15424@mailee.bellcore.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, cgra@se.alcbel.be Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 19:15:22 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM I wrote: > >[...]I tolerate my ugly ``literate'' programs because in my work a program > >is seldom an artifact of the first importance. Far more often the > >paper is what matters (and what gets polished). And Chris Gray responds: > Well that's a pretty straightforward admission that to this guy at least > literate programming is just an academic fad which enables you to get > papers published, not a serious proposal to enhance the quality of our > programs (and our lives). I think Mr. Gray is slightly misinformed about publication. The days of literate programming as a publishing fad have come and gone. Major publications are not amused by article about literate programming, and papers on literate program do not weigh heavily with those who play the publication game. So *I* wouldn't waste *my* time on literate programming if all I cared about was getting published. I will now follow up with yet another variation on my standard polemic about literate programming. Longtime readers may want to skip it :-) The single, sad truth that Mr. Gray has unwittingly uttered is that after nine years literate programming is still at the proposal stage. It is *proposed* that literate programming will improve the quality of our programs. There's almost no evidence in favor of this proposition. The only cases I know of in which literate programming was used for production code and someone troubled to evaluate the results are Knuth's ``Errors of TeX'' and my ``Literate programming on a team project'' (with Carla Marceau). There's little evidence that literate-programming tools can really give us better programs (although there are True Believers, of whom I am one). There is no method that tells one *how* to apply literate-programming tools to get good results. If I had the evidence and the method, I could take *any* of the existing tools to our development organization and put them into use. If I had only the method, I might find a project that would be willing to gamble on the results. I could never go to a project and say ``here are some good tools; if you use them you will get good results.'' I have seen what damage novices can do with sharp instruments. I am disappointed by the vast amount of work put into tools when what we desparately need is an attempt at ``How (and how not) to write a good literate program no matter what tool you are using.'' There are endless implementations of tools and discussions of same because it's much easier to write tools and to evaluate tools than it is to teach people to program differently and to measure the quality of the results. Too bad. Norman Ramsey ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 19:13:19 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: karna@pobox.upenn.edu (Animesh Karna) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, karna@POBOX.UPENN.EDU Subject: Re: Readable programs -- an alternative to Web, Tangle and Weave Message-ID: <149364@netnews.upenn.edu> Date: 24 Sep 93 13:54:00 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU : IMHO you are missing a lot if you just rely on commenting. Just try : nuweb or noweb. You also get to arrange your code in a more : understandable way (good for during the initial design phase). Need to : live with LaTeX though! I like the printed stuff but in your case : if you are using DOS/Windows try WinWordWEB, this is a WYSIWYG system. May : be others are working on a unix/X system. : This way you dont have to make up a strict commenting system and : remember how to use it! This WinWordWEB sounds interesting . . . is it available via anon. ftp? If so, at what sight? Thanks! -- Definition of the PC Movement: It's what happens when Liberals start acting like Conservatives. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 21:25:11 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d ... 415-336-0742) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, zen@DEATH.CORP.SUN.COM Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: 25 Sep 1993 00:48:31 GMT Message-ID: To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <9309242049.AA19181@dawn.cs.rice.edu> preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) writes: zen@death.corp.sun.com writes a lot of stuff. I won't quote it. > He says I'm a hypocrite for writing nuweb in a less-than-perfectly-literate > fashion. I disagree. I'm not preaching LP, I'm just a user. As a clarification, I didn't say that you were hypocritical for writing a literate tool using non-literate methods. I said the *justification* you used seemed hypocritical to *my* ideal literate programming. I didn't say, nor am I trying to imply that nuweb is a poor program at all (I think the only thing I implied about nuweb is that it, like any program, would be better if written in a literal fashion; I suppose we would agree there, but that's not my issue.) Ok, just a couple of points; specifics in where we disagree: > The question of how it's coded is an entirely orthogonal issue. > In fact, I'd say there are 3 orthogonal issues here [...] > 1) The "language" definition -- the features (and misfeatures) of > the system > 2) The actual collection of tools that support the language > (in the case of web, the tangle and weave programs, and maybe > the TeX processor and Pascal compiler) > 3) How each of the tools is implemented Ideally, perhaps, features should be independent or implementation and tools used and available. I think, however, in practice, they are connected; I would say especially #3, and perhaps even more so #2, how they are implemented -- using literate programming or not -- is of extreme importance, *iff* you believe that it adds to the value of the program. In addition, when you use these tools to build other systems or tools, then it becomes even more important and non-orthogonal. I think that literate programming has less import in an ideal world than in the real world for those same issues you mention. > Nobody has commented on how I implement my state machines or how I > parse command-line arguments or how I allocate memory. Why? Because > those're just boring details. I'm not trying to teach people how to program, > I'm trying to learn what makes a nice language for LP. Perhaps people would comment on them, if they could read your code (and I don't mean just making it available to them.) -- d ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 21:51:19 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 22:44:44 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9309250244.AA09548@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, karna@POBOX.UPENN.EDU CC: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Subject: Re: Readable programs -- an alternative to Web, Tangle and Weave try niord.shsu.edu or pip.shsu.edu. Osman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1993 12:06:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: fj@iesd.auc.dk (Frank Jensen) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, fj@IESD.AUC.DK Subject: Re: Big Programs & Separate files & Make & Incremental Compilation & Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: 25 Sep 1993 16:41:11 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU >>>>> On Fri, 24 Sep 1993 19:42:16 GMT, mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) said: > Lewis Perrin wrote, in response to my deathless prose: > >Unless I'm missing something this doesn't conquer the problem. Those of us > >who don't get their code right the first time (disgusting wretches we, > >failing even with LP tools;-) tend to rely on our tangles inserting hints to > >the target language debugger as to where in the web the source code can be > >found. Trouble is, change the documentation significantly and the locations > >will change. > > > >If the source code hasn't changed but has been relocated in the web, a > >tangle smart enough to notice this can either go ahead and fool make (good) > >and the debugger (bad), or it can let the compilation steps cascade. Right? > You did miss something, but only because I omitted to tell you. Inscribe > automatically inserts #line directives for generated C and C++ files, so the > debugger's source is the Inscribe source in those cases; I call this "direct > debuggability," which may be my private jargon, but I think I appropriated the > term from people in this forum. It would be simple to generate equivalent > directives for other languages if their compilers paid attention to them, e.g. > "pragma Line" for an Ada compiler. The original poster meant something different: he already has a tool that inserts such #line directives in the tangled output files (C source files). The problem is that if you have one relatively large web file that generates a number of C source files and you change something near the beginning of the web file, then all the output files will change (because the line numbers in the #line directives change). If you ignore this type of difference when you compare files, then Make will not recompile the files, but the debugger will be confused because it relies on the #line directives to identify offending code. Or you don't ignore the difference, i.e., all files will compare unequal and recompilation will take a long time. The real source of the problem is that the web is contained in one file. The way I solve this problem is to have one web file that includes a lot of small web files. Each of these small web files corresponds to one C source file. Thus, if I edit one of the small web files, it won't affect the line numbers of all the other files, and recompilation will be fast and the debugger will not be confused. --- Frank Jensen, fj@iesd.auc.dk Department of Mathematics and Computer Science Aalborg University DENMARK ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1993 14:05:34 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: oauld@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Orion Auld) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, oauld@PONDER.CSCI.UNT.EDU Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1993 18:40:20 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In zen@death.corp.sun.com (d ... 415-336-0742) writes: >In article <9309241359.AA09604@dawn.cs.rice.edu> preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) writes: >> I wrote: >> >I have to consider it [nuweb] incomplete. >> >It'll get more complete as I spend more effort on it. >> and zen@death.corp.sun.com (somebody? That's me!) writes: >> >Talk about justifying your actions... you could say the same thing about >> >any tool or program -- they're just not finished. >> Of course I justify my actions; what did you expect? > No less, of course. The point I was trying to make was that your >justification was being hypocritical to the (*grin* -- well, *my* ideal, >of course!) ideal of literate programming. You may be a literate programmer, but your degree of English literacy is underwhelming. The word "hypocritical" implies a contradiction of self, not a contradiction of someone else, and hence is usually regarded as being much more serious. Perhaps you meant to use "contradictory", in which case you would have to specify an object. -- ***** Orion Auld ***** *----------------------------------------------* "We are only fabulous | "Men go crazy in congregations but they only | beasts, after all." | get better one by one." Gordon Sumner | -- John Ashberry *----------------------------------------------* ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1993 15:23:27 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Mark Dailey Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mdailey@CRL.COM Message-ID: <199309252020.AA23533@crl.crl.com> Subject: Join Maillist To: LitProg@shsu.edu Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1993 13:20:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please add mdailey@crl.com to the LitProg mailing list. Thanks, Mark S. Dailey mdailey@crl.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1993 19:36:07 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: nts3cjc@cabell.vcu.edu (Christopher J. Cioffi) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, nts3cjc@CABELL.VCU.EDU Subject: FAQ for c.p.l.?? Message-ID: <1993Sep26.000938.7163@cabell.vcu.edu> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 00:09:38 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Hello, Is there a FAQ for this group?? If so, where? Thanks. Chris ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1993 19:57:26 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: ross@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Ross Williams) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ross@WATTLE.ITD.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU Subject: FunnelWeb - a practical literate programming tool. Date: 26 Sep 1993 00:41:11 GMT Message-ID: <282of7$fgi@huon.itd.adelaide.edu.au> Keywords: funnelweb literate programming rocksoft tool To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Netters, I've just noticed this newsgroup so I thought I'd put in a free plug for FunnelWeb. Ra ra! FunnelWeb is not the most sophisticated literate programming tool around, but I truly believe that it is one of the most practical. I've engineered it for simplicity and portability and reliability, and it's well documented. It has almost no bugs. I think it's a good entry point for anyone wishing to try out literate programming. Ross Williams +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Name : Dr Ross N. Williams | | Company : RockSoft Pty Ltd (Reg TM Australia, TM USA) | | Net : ross@guest.adelaide.edu.au. | | Fax : +61 8 373-4911 24 hours | | Phone : +61 8 379-9217 24 hours | | Snail : 16 Lerwick Avenue, Hazelwood Park 5066, Australia | | Archive : ftp.adelaide.edu.au/pub/compression and /funnelweb | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ FUNNELWEB ========= FunnelWeb is a production-quality literate-programming tool that emphasises simplicity and reliability. It provides a macro facility, and assists in the production of typeset documentation. FunnelWeb runs on most popular machines (Sun, VAX, Mac, PC) and its highly portable source code in C is freely available under a GNU license. Features: + Provides a simple macro preprocessor facility. + Assists in the generation of typeset documentation. + Runs on Sun, VMS VAX, Macintosh, and PC. + Portable C source code distributed under GNU licence. + Comprehensive user's manual (115 pages). + Input-programming-language independent. + Allows complete control over the output text. + Regression test suite with over 200 tests. - Requires TeX to produce typeset documentation. - Typesets program code using TT font only. How to Obtain FunnelWeb ----------------------- FunnelWeb can be obtained by anonymous FTP from: Machine : ftp.adelaide.edu.au File : ~pub/funnelweb/ FUNNELWEB CUSTOMER TESTIMONIALS =============================== "I've been fooling around with FunnelWeb for about three days now, and I'm convinced that this is one of the most powerful tools I have encountered in almost two decades of programming. I'm in the process of converting several thousand lines of very repetitive code to FunnelWeb macros; I can't believe how EASY it is, and how GOOD the resulting source code and documentation are. Thank you for this tool!" -- Jerry Callen (jcallen@world.std.com) Runtime Engineer, Thinking Machines Corporation, Boston, USA. 22-Jun-1992 (Authorized to be quoted 16-Oct-1992). "I really like the 'quality' of the FW distribution. Well done Ross! I cannot call it 'professional quality' because much of the 'professional' software I have seen has been VERY POOR. Your package is better than 'professional', but I don't know of an appropriate adjective." -- George Vokalek (gvokalek@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au). Hardware Engineer, University of Adelaide, South Australia, Australia. 14-Jun-1992 (Authorized to be quoted 18-Oct-1992). "I have used FunnelWeb on two ASSEMBLER modules. Written for a microcontroller with NO DEBUGGING POSSIBLE, so correctness and emphasis on getting it right was important. I found it forced me to reorganise the code a bit, to get my concepts straight. By the time I did this, and documented what I was doing, [including a C version of an algorithm in one module] It looked good, and worked in a few passes. I am VERY happy with the results. ... And, I got a very nice listing to present the customer!!" -- John Skaller (maxtal@extro.ucc.su.oz.au) Maxtal Pty Ltd, Sydney, Australia. 09-Jul-1992 (Authorized to be quoted 17-Oct-1992). "...the manual is about 10 times better than any other user manual I've ever read." -- Barry Dwyer (dwyer@cs.adelaide.edu.au) Senior Lecturer, Department of Computer Science, The University of Adelaide. Australia. 17-Jun-1992 (Authorized to be quoted 21-Oct-1992). "I've done the regression testing, and it worked without a hitch. You've done a nice job making the sucker portable. My system is a mono NeXTstation running NeXTSTEP 2.1 with 16 MB of RAM." --John Dawson (john@arissoft.com) Software Developer, Arissoft Development Corporation, Texas, USA. 11-Jun-1992. (Authorized to be quoted 17-Oct-1992). ---- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1993 19:57:48 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: ross@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Ross Williams) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ross@WATTLE.ITD.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU Subject: What literate progamming means to me. Date: 26 Sep 1993 00:43:13 GMT Message-ID: <282oj1$fgk@huon.itd.adelaide.edu.au> Keywords: literate programming philosophy To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Netters, There has been some discussion in this newsgroup of "what literate programming means to me". I thought I'd put in my two cents worth. Ross. +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Name : Dr Ross N. Williams | | Company : RockSoft Pty Ltd (Reg TM Australia, TM USA) | | Net : ross@guest.adelaide.edu.au. | | Fax : +61 8 373-4911 24 hours | | Phone : +61 8 379-9217 24 hours | | Snail : 16 Lerwick Avenue, Hazelwood Park 5066, Australia | | Archive : ftp.adelaide.edu.au/pub/compression and /funnelweb | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ What is Literate Programming? ----------------------------- (From Chapter 1 of The FunnelWeb Manual. FunnelWeb is available from ftp.adelaide.edu.au/pub/funnelweb.) "In literate programming the emphasis is reversed. Instead of writing code containing documentation, the literate programmer writes documentation containing code. ... The effect of this simple shift of emphasis can be so profound as to change one's whole approach to programming. Under the literate programming paradigm, the central activity of programming becomes that of conveying meaning to other intelligent beings rather than merely convincing the computer to behave in a particular way. It is the difference between performing and exposing a magic trick. ... With this structure in place, the literate programming system can provide far more than just a reversal of the priority of comments and code. In its full blown form, a good literate programming facility can provide total support for the essential thrust of literate programming, which is that computer programs should be written more for the human reader than for the compiler. ... In the end, the details don't matter. The most significant benefit that literate programming offers is ITS CAPACITY TO TRANSFORM THE STATE OF MIND OF THE PROGRAMMER. It is now legend that the act of explaining something can transform one's understanding of it. This is one of the justifications behind the powerful combination of research and teaching in universities. Similarly, by constantly explaining the unfolding program code in English to an imaginary reader, the programmer transforms his perception of the code, laying it open, prone, to the critical eye. The result of this exposure is a higher quality of programming. When exposed to the harsh light of the literate eye, bugs crawl out, special cases vanish, and sloppy code evaporates. ... Thus literate programming does not merely assist in the preparation of documentation, but also makes significant contributes to the process of programming itself. In practice this has turned out to be a contribution far more important than the mere capacity to produce typeset documentation." ---- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 00:08:42 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: tzs@stein1.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tzs@STEIN1.U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: 26 Sep 1993 04:31:43 GMT Message-ID: <2835vf$ii0@news.u.washington.edu> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article , >> d = c+1/c; //guaranttees: d>2 .. >> assertion at line 7 (d>2) not guarantteed. Best possible: d>=2. > >I think you mean > >assertion at line 7 (d>2) not guaranteed. Best possible: d>=0. > >Consider the case of c == 2 (which makes d = 1.5) . Ever hear of precedence? c+1/c means c+(1/c), not (c+1)/c. --Tim Smith -- "Pope moved that we strike from the State's brief and appendix a selection from the Year Book of 1484 written in Medieval Latin and references thereto. The State provided no translation and conceded a total lack of knowledge of what it meant. The motion is granted" 396 A.2d 1054 --Tim Smith ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 08:24:49 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Subject: Re: FAQ for c.p.l.?? Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 12:57:06 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU >>>>> On Sun, 26 Sep 1993 00:09:38 GMT, nts3cjc@cabell.vcu.edu (Christopher J. Cioffi) said: Christopher> Is there a FAQ for this group?? If so, where? Thanks. i am working on an update for the fweb faq, for fweb v1.30. it will have to go to john krommes for his comments, and to news-answers-request@mit.edu for approval as a usenet faq. all this will probably not be done before end of october. Below is info how to get the old version. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FWEB has got a list of Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for LitProg: You may obtain the latest version of this FAQ via anonymous FTP from - `ftp.desy.de' [141.34.1.2] in directory `/pub/faq/web/fweb' [EUROPE] - `niord.shsu.edu' [192.92.115.8] in directory `[FILESERV.FWEB]' [USA] [Either as .texi, .dvi, .ps, .info or plain text file, makefile included.] NEW: you can now access a wealth of Literate Programming documents, including the FWEB FAQ, on the World Wide Web [WWW] at http://info.desy.de:80/gnu/ftp/pub/www/projects/LitProg.html If you dont know about WWW, but you are on the Internet, try telnet info.cern.ch then type go http://info.desy.de:80/gnu/ftp/pub/www/projects/LitProg.html at the prompt to go to the LitProg documents. If you don't happen to have telnet on your computer, but you are at an Internet mail gateway, send email to listserv@info.cern.ch with a line in it saying HELP to get back instructions how to access WWW documents via mail. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Marcus Speh, II.Inst.Theor.Physik,Luruper Chaussee 149, 22761 Hamburg,Germany Phone: +49-40 8998 2178, Fax: +49-40 8998 2267, Private: +49-40 801392 E-mail: , ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 12:14:52 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: xiao@ie.utoronto.ca (Yan Xiao) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, xiao@IE.UTORONTO.CA Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 16:46:57 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU tzs@stein1.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes: >In article , >>> d = c+1/c; //guaranttees: d>2 >.. >>> assertion at line 7 (d>2) not guarantteed. Best possible: d>=2. >> >>I think you mean >> >>assertion at line 7 (d>2) not guaranteed. Best possible: d>=0. >> >>Consider the case of c == 2 (which makes d = 1.5) . >Ever hear of precedence? c+1/c means c+(1/c), not (c+1)/c. Consider the case of c = -1. d = (-1) + ( 1/(-1)) = (-1) + (-1) = -2. Or worse when c = 0. I missed something or what!? Should this group be better called comp.programming.ILliterate? On a serious side, I haven't heard people mentioning a tool called FlexOr, developped by a fellow (Gunnar) at York University. It really looks like Web to me, though. Xiao Yan Xiao, Department of Industrial Engineering, University of Toronto 4 Taddle Creek Road, Toronto, Ontario, M5S 1A4 ============---------------====================-----------------========= - "What, doc? 500 bucks for putting me to sleep!?!" - "Well, it only takes 50 to do that, but it takes 450 to wake yo up" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 13:56:31 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: David Reeve Sward Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, sward+@CMU.EDU Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 14:18:41 -0400 Message-ID: To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Excerpts from netnews.comp.programming.literate: 26-Sep-93 Re: What does literate prog.. by Yan Xiao@ie.utoronto.ca > >>> d = c+1/c; //guaranttees: d>2 > > Consider the case of c = -1. d = (-1) + ( 1/(-1)) = (-1) + (-1) = -2. > Or worse when c = 0. > > I missed something or what!? Should this group be better called > comp.programming.ILliterate? There was a previous assertion of c>0. -- David Sward sward+@cmu.edu Finger or email for PGP public key 3D567F Encryption is an envelope for your email; read alt.security.pgp for details. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 17:44:45 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: sven@robots.ox.ac.uk (Sven Utcke) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, sven@ROBOTS.OX.AC.UK Subject: footnotes in FWEB Message-ID: <1993Sep26.212917.28346@hotspur.robots.ox.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 21:29:17 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Yes, I know it's a FAQ (it's also in the FWEB-FAQ). Only: a) I deleted it (stupid me). b) I tried the "hint" given in the FAQ about a month ago --- without even the slightest bit of success. I'm obviously not bright enough to follow the FAQ's advise. I therefore need someone who will tell me how to do it in that slow and methodical way normally used with imbeciles. And is there any way to get margin notes (get \marginpar to work)? Also something else: Does Funnelweb work with LaTeX? Thanks for you help Sven ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 19:55:45 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: ross@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Ross Williams) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ross@WATTLE.ITD.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU Subject: Literate implementations of literate tools. Date: 27 Sep 1993 00:36:23 GMT Message-ID: <285ci7$49b@huon.itd.adelaide.edu.au> Keywords: literate progamming tools implementation To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU I've noticed someone suggesting that it is hypocritical to write a literate programming tool in a non-literate style. I disagree. Writing a literate tool using itself is just asking for trouble. What if the only executable is accidentally deleted?! Better to keep the implementation of the literate tool "clean". I wrote FunnelWeb in raw C on purpose. My attitude was: "One million billion non-literate programs have already been written. For the sake of implementation safety, just one more won't hurt." Of course, I haven't written an illiterate program since. :-) Ross. +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Name : Dr Ross N. Williams | | Company : RockSoft Pty Ltd (Reg TM Australia, TM USA) | | Net : ross@guest.adelaide.edu.au. | | Fax : +61 8 373-4911 24 hours | | Phone : +61 8 379-9217 24 hours | | Snail : 16 Lerwick Avenue, Hazelwood Park 5066, Australia | | Archive : ftp.adelaide.edu.au/pub/compression and /funnelweb | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 21:08:25 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: seiferth@bandelier.cs.unm.edu (Justin Seiferth) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, seiferth@BANDELIER.CS.UNM.EDU Subject: Printing funnelweb documentation Message-ID: Keywords: literate progamming tools implementation Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 00:59:39 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Have you managed to turn the funnelweb documentation into a postscript document? I'm no TeX/LaTeX weanie and have been unable to figure out why I can't process the tex documents which come with the distribution. My attempts to process the documents result in the following error: % latex u_manual.tex This is TeX, C Version 3.14t3 (u_manual.tex ! Undefined control sequence. l.73 \documentstyle [titlepage]{book} ? If I type "RUN", a multitude of errors appear and a bogus .dvi file (1 page long) is produced. If someone could point me towards a ps copy of the documentation or tell me how I can LaTeX the documents myself I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks... Justin seiferth@bandelier.cs.unm.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 04:48:47 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309270945.AA00522@aleph> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu CC: dentato@aleph Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 10:45:37 +0100 From: dentato@aleph Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dentato@ALEPH Norman Ramsey said: >There's little evidence that literate-programming tools can really >give us better programs (although there are True Believers, of whom I >am one). There is no method that tells one *how* to apply >literate-programming tools to get good results. I'm a Tre Believer too, and I agree with you. Now the problem is: there is such a method? As far I know there is no method to follow to write better novels, poems, and so on. Now I became a little mistic: writing code (literate or not), painting, composing music and other are a sort of illuminatio: you can show the results to others, you can try to expalain your Way to others, but you can't give them a recipe to follow. We could look for statical proof that literate programs are "better" (in some sense) but I don't know if there are enough test-cases. I agree with you that the discussion shoul move to "How write literate programs", but I don't know how to start such a discussion! I know that you (and many others in this list) have a long experience in the literate programming field, could you (and others) suggest a starting point on the topic ``How (and how not) to write a good literate program no matter what tool you are using.''? ___ __ Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" //_/// \ Dipartimento di Informatica e Sistemistica // \//__/ Via Buonarroti 12 00184 Roma (Italy) Remo Dentato tel: +39-6-4873689 fax: +39-6-4873628 email: dentato@cadgroup.ing.uniroma1.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 04:59:24 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: cgra@se.alcbel.be (Chris Gray) Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: <2022@se.alcbel.be> Date: 27 Sep 93 08:35:53 GMT Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, cgra@se.alcbel.be To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <9309242315.AA15424@mailee.bellcore.com>, norman@bellcore.com writes: Path: se.alcbel!alcbel!ub4b!mcsun!uunet!seismo!esosun.css.gov!mvb.saic.com!litprog From: norman@bellcore.com Newsgroups: comp.programming.literate Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: <9309242315.AA15424@mailee.bellcore.com> Date: 24 Sep 93 23:15:22 GMT Organization: Litprog<==>Comp.Programming.Literate Gateway Lines: 51 X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List Norman Ramsey wrote: > >[...]I tolerate my ugly ``literate'' programs because in my work a program > >is seldom an artifact of the first importance. Far more often the > >paper is what matters (and what gets polished). And I responded: > Well that's a pretty straightforward admission that to this guy at least > literate programming is just an academic fad which enables you to get > papers published, not a serious proposal to enhance the quality of our > programs (and our lives). To which Mr. (or possibly Dr.) Ramsey retorts: >I think Mr. Gray is slightly misinformed about publication. The days >of literate programming as a publishing fad have come and gone. Come to think of it I haven't seen a lot on the subject recently, and my backlog of unread Computer Journals seems to be reaching the two-year mark. But the statement that that the program is unimportant compared to the published paper did remind me of some of the less satisfying aspects of my last job in an academic institution. >[...] >The single, sad truth that Mr. Gray has unwittingly uttered is that >after nine years literate programming is still at the proposal stage. Then maybe I should shut up and go away and implement the proposal. That's the sort of thing I'm paid for anyway, not for shooting my mouth off in inappropriate fora. Bye, Chris (still 180 \deg out of phase, woleb ees) __________________________________________________________________________ Chris Gray cgra@se.alcbel.be Compu$erve: 100065.2102 __________________________________________________________________________ CanBe ( "(at-same-time C lisp FORTH) USING", confusing); ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 09:01:38 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: dak@messua.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (David Kastrup) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@MESSUA.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE Subject: Re: Printing funnelweb documentation Date: 27 Sep 1993 13:37:00 GMT Message-ID: <286q9s$5sj@urmel.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keywords: literate progamming tools implementation To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU seiferth@bandelier.cs.unm.edu (Justin Seiferth) writes: >Have you managed to turn the funnelweb documentation into a postscript >document? I'm no TeX/LaTeX weanie and have been unable to figure out >why I can't process the tex documents which come with the distribution. >My attempts to process the documents result in the following error: >% latex u_manual.tex >This is TeX, C Version 3.14t3 >(u_manual.tex >! Undefined control sequence. >l.73 \documentstyle > [titlepage]{book} > ? >If I type "RUN", a multitude of errors appear and a bogus .dvi file >(1 page long) is produced. This looks as if your installation is at fault. Obviously, latex does not call up LaTeX, but plain TeX (or virtex, maybe). Try the following things: latex "&lplain" u_manual *or* write virtex or tex instead of latex. The double quotes are OS specific. In unix, you need them to avoid shell interpretation of &. Your OS might or might not need them. If all else fails, try latex (or tex, or virtex) tex gives a prompt ** to which you type &lplain u_manual If even this does not work, probably LaTeX was never installed at all at your site. Try the nearest help. -- David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 09:45:26 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: hallam@dxal18.cern.ch (HALLAM-BAKER Phillip) Subject: RE: New Math Notation #3107 Message-ID: <1993Sep27.141742.1104@dxcern.cern.ch> Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, hallam@alws.cern.ch Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 14:17:42 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <9309261452.memo.19736@BIX.com>, Jeffrey McArthur writes: |>[John Goodwin] |> |>|

Formulas in General

This, of course, is the touchy part--what |>| to do with all those beloved Greek symbols, wierd connectives, and so |>| on. Actually, except for fractions and the relative paucity of symbols |>| available, E-text can be fairly friendly towards Math.

|>| |>| FORTRAN and similar languages have tackled this problem admirably. |>| Probably a C-like notation would be preferred today (except for |>| exponents, which would likely use the FORTRAN). One problem with C as |>| a standard is its use of E-mail unsafe characters, whence the infamous |>| ANSI trigraphs. We need workable alternates for those.

|> |>I disagree strongly with these statements. Literate Programming is an |>attemp to FIX the serious problems with C and FORTRAN style notation. C |>and FORTRAN can be very difficult to understand. Particularly if you are |>doing vector or tensor calculations. The notation used is almost |>unintelligable. Mathmatical notation is much cleaner. That is why, using |>literate programming, it is desirable to include as part of the program the |>full mathmatical description. |> |>Literate programming uses additional fonts and symbols to make the code |>much more intelligable. Instead of using .NE., <>, or != to mean "not |>equals", literate programs print and display the code using a standard |>mathmatical not-equals sign. Assignments are shown using a left pointing |>arrow. There are literate programming tools for C, C++, Fortran, Pascal, |>Modula 2, and several others, as well as some "generic" literate |>programming tools that let you define you own syntax. Using literate |>programming, array indicies are printed as subscripts. |> |>The proposal John Goodwin makes, is in complete opposition to one of the |>basic ideas behind one of Usenet's newest newsgroups: |>comp.programming.literate. I don't see these ideas as mutually contradictory. Standard computer languages are poor in this area, but standard maths is also poor in certain areas - the use of juxtaposition to impy multiplication is a dreadful feature for example that should be removed from standard notation. It prevents the use of meaningful identifiers with multiple characters. Using more than ISO-LATIN is obvioulsy the beginings of such a system. but it is also important to realise that notation can also get in the way. For example is blackboard bold P [] any easier to understand than PowerSet []? Symbols are very usefull for ideas that recur frequently. They also have a cost penalty since unless you know what they mean you have no clue as to their function. There is a usefull compromise between insisting on the use of the word plus to indicate addition and the use of a symbol to indicate every posible function. -- Phillip M. Hallam-Baker Not Speaking for anyone else. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 10:45:25 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 10:44:26 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM Message-ID: <009732AB.BC7FD640.23292@SHSU.edu> Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? On Fri, 24 Sep 93 19:15:22 -0400, Norman Ramsey posted: >..... > I think Mr. Gray is slightly misinformed about publication. The days of > literate programming as a publishing fad have come and gone. Major > publications are not amused by article about literate programming, and > papers on literate program do not weigh heavily with those who play the > publication game. So *I* wouldn't waste *my* time on literate programming > if all I cared about was getting published. >..... [As if I didn't already have enough to do with network stuff]. I've been meaning to ask this for some time now of this group (for lurkers, news newbies, and others who are unaware of it, while I proudly "own" the LitProg list and you are sure to see my e-mail address more than you probably would/will want, I am generally clueless about programming; I'm an economist who enjoys the network). What would the group think of a "refereed electronic periodical" for literate programming; maybe "Literate Programming Review" or some other less mundane name?? What I have in mind is a model we are developing for economics -- you have the usual cadre of people, an editor, etc., with a panel of blind reviewers; articles are submitted via e-mail to the editor, who then strips author-identifying items, and forwards the submissions to a subset of the reviewers; the reviewers comment on the submission to the editor, who in turn forwards blind (stripped) reviews to the author; the author makes modifications, resubmits, etc. Once the reviewers and editor say so, the article is ready for inclusion in a mail-based "journal" (which can easily be linked into c.p.l). The address for the journal is completely private for posting -- only selected addresses (say, only the editor) can post to it -- but completely public for subscriptions. An alias (or the direct editor's e-mail address) can be used for submissions. As I see it, this would accomplish at least two things now missing and sorely needed. First, Norman's > Major > publications are not amused by article about literate programming, is removed as a major journal, devoted exclusively to literate programming, would exist. It would be THE journal for this not-so-limited topic. Insofar as whether ot not it is a "journal", getting a unique ISSN for it is not a concern. Second, and IMO more important, it would have the ability to provide examples (where literate programming is sorely lacking) and discussions of real life constraints in both the philisophy as well as application of this concept of programming, with reference to a specific dimension covered in the article. The electronic forum is an excellent place for this, IMO. First, it will be a long time before any major print periodical develops (or for a dedicated space for the topic within an existing print periodical is created) as I don't think a lot of people even understand the concept of literate programming (while I admittedly am not a programer, my understanding of its benefits makes me wonder why it is not more applied than it appears to be; I often -- possibly mistakenly -- think that I have a better conceptualization of literate programming than many professional programmers out there who could really benefit from it). Until the concept is spread, this form of print-related distribution is just about out of the question; without a distribution of some sort, the concept can't be spread -- sort of a serious Catch-22. Second, the costs of production and distribution (which, as a former editor of a few print jourals, I can assure you are not trivial), as well as the costs of start up are minimized (rapidly approaching zero). Third, space constraints, such as number of physical pages per issue, simply do not exist in the electronic medium. Fourth, and related to the items above, periodicity is merely a side issue -- if a monthly format is used, with one or 200 articles or a statement that "nothing is included this month", so be it; the underlying concern is that the number of issues and when to expect their distribution are basically fixed in nature. I'm not offering to edit this, but I am more than willing to provide a few resources to it (sort of serve as publisher, I guess) and discuss what can and (IMO) should be considered in doing this. It's a real opportunity for the enhancement of literate programming to maybe gain wider acceptance. If anyone is interested, let me know. Regards, George %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% George D. Greenwade, Ph.D. Bitnet: BED_GDG@SHSU Department of Economics and Business Analysis THEnet: SHSU::BED_GDG College of Business Administration Voice: (409) 294-1266 P. O. Box 2118 FAX: (409) 294-3612 Sam Houston State University Internet: bed_gdg@SHSU.edu Huntsville, TX 77341 bed_gdg%SHSU.decnet@relay.the.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 10:52:26 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: prechelt@i41s18.ira.uka.de (Lutz Prechelt) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, prechelt@I41S18.IRA.UKA.DE Subject: FunnelWeb and LaTeX (was: footnotes in FWEB) Date: 27 Sep 1993 15:31:10 GMT Message-ID: <2870vuINN6dt@iraun1.ira.uka.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <1993Sep26.212917.28346@hotspur.robots.ox.ac.uk>, sven@robots.ox.ac.uk (Sven Utcke) writes: ... |> Also something else: Does Funnelweb work with LaTeX? If you begin with something like @P typesetter = tex \documentstyle.... \def\bye{\relax} You can go straight ahead with LaTeX without problems. If you want to use 11pt or 12pt style, however, you have to redefine a number of commands used by FunnelWeb to select fonts. Lutz -- Lutz Prechelt (email: prechelt@ira.uka.de) | Whenever you Institut fuer Programmstrukturen und Datenorganisation | complicate things, Universitaet Karlsruhe; 76128 Karlsruhe; Germany | they get (Voice: ++49/721/608-4068, FAX: ++49/721/694092) | less simple. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 11:53:14 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 12:50:26 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, gurari@news.cis.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Eitan Gurari (?) writes: > I consider it a worthless effort to polish the exposition and > appearance of literate programs that are not intended to be consumed > by others (i.e., documents that are not intended for peer review---see > norman's note). Consequently, documents that serve as literate > programs to me might be cryptic creatures to other readers. I disagree. The time spent polishing exposition, in my experience, helps to find latent bugs. In addition, the better the web looks, the more likely I am to pass it around for an informal peer review (and the more likely others are to actually read it). I think a quote from Kernighan & Plauger's "Elements of Programming Style" might be in order here: One excuse for writing an unintelligible program is that it is a private matter. Only the original programmer will ever look at it, and surely he need not spell out everything when he has it all in his head. This can be a strong argument, particularly if you don't program professionally. It is the same justification you use for writing ``qt milk, fish, big box'' for a grocery list instead of composing a proper sentence. If the list is intended for someone else, of course, you had better specify what kind of fish you want and what should be inside that big box. But even if only you personally want to understand the message, if it is to be readable a year from now you must write a complete sentence. So in your diary you might write, ``Today I went to the supermarket and bought a quart of milk, a pound of halibut, and a big box of raisins.'' You learn to write as if you someone else because ~next year you will be ``someone else.'' I must admit that I find even half-hearted webs (such as the source for noweb -- sorry, Norman) easier to read (and modify) than well documented & structured non-web code (such as the GNU project stuff) that I've attempted to play with in the past. My webbing style seems to focus on the documentation rather than the code. I'm not a formal program-prover, but I try to use the text chunks (to use noweb terminology) to explain and ``prove'' the algorithm. The code chunks must match the documentation. I do this because I find it easier to reason in English than in C, Pascal, Awk, or any other non-human language. These days, when I find an error, it is usually because incorrect code does not match correct documentation, rather than the other way around. Adding fuel to the fire, -- Lee leew@pilot.njin.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 11:55:30 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 12:53:08 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, karna@pobox.upenn.edu Subject: Re: Web-like system that doesn't use TeX? Message-ID: Animesh Karna asks: > One of the things stopping me from using Web (or CWeb) is that the > "readable" output is in TeX. Does anyone know of a version of > Web/CWeb/something similar that can produced other kinds of output -- like > plain text or RTF or something like that? The only systems I know of that meet your specifications are CLiP and WinWordWEB. The former can run under any system with any word processor; the latter requires DOS, Windows, and MS Word for Windows. -- Lee leew@pilot.njin.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 12:06:52 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: gurari@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (Eitan Gurari) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, gurari@NEWS.CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU Subject: Re: Literate Programming for non-imperative languages Message-ID: <9309271651.AA03219@rhinoceros.cis.ohio-state.edu> Date: 27 Sep 93 08:51:30 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU > From: dmason@uwaterloo.ca (Dave Mason) > Right now I'm trying a new > approach for multi-lingual WEBs that will run within TeX itself. It > will be quite easy to customize for multiple languages, and you can > get as much, or as little, pretty-printing as you want. Pictures at 11. I tried to build a similar system. It can be ftp'ed from cis.ohio-state.edu (directory pub/tex/osu/gurari): ProTex.sty -- Literate programming tool AlProTex.sty -- Tailored adjustments to ProTex.sty The manual (``TeX and LaTeX: Drawing and Literate Programming. McGraw-Hill'' ISBN 0-07-025208-4) will be published by McGraw-Hill in the very near future (currently in print). -eitan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 12:07:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: dat91msu@ludat.lth.se (Martin Sunnerdahl) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dat91msu@LUDAT.LTH.SE Subject: Multiple 'find & replace'? Date: 27 Sep 1993 16:37:31 GMT Message-ID: <2874sb$k3a@nic.lth.se> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Hi. A friend of mine is working as a translator, translating between Swedish and Danish, two very similar language. He feels that it would save a vast amount of time if he could have a wordbank of, say, fivehundred words that he could use for doing some kind of multiple 'search & replace' on his mac. My question is this: is there a program that does multiple search and replace (automated)? And where can he find it. I assume there must be a program like that out there, so please help me out! yrs, well, truly /Martin - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Martin Sunnerdahl /. .\ Lilla Tvargat 14| | dat91msu@ludat.lth.se [ ^ ] S-22353 LUND | | +46 46-126058 ||| SWEDEN | | -V I V E R I V E N I V E R S U M V I V U S V I C I- | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 12:23:34 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 13:21:06 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, bed_gdg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: George Greenwade suggests: > What would the group think of a "refereed electronic periodical" for > literate programming; maybe "Literate Programming Review" or some other > less mundane name?? What I have in mind is a model we are developing for > economics -- you have the usual cadre of people, an editor, etc., with a > panel of blind reviewers; articles are submitted via e-mail to the editor, > who then strips author-identifying items, and forwards the submissions to a > subset of the reviewers; the reviewers comment on the submission to the > editor, who in turn forwards blind (stripped) reviews to the author; the > author makes modifications, resubmits, etc. Once the reviewers and editor > say so, the article is ready for inclusion in a mail-based "journal" (which > can easily be linked into c.p.l). The address for the journal is > completely private for posting -- only selected addresses (say, only the > editor) can post to it -- but completely public for subscriptions. An > alias (or the direct editor's e-mail address) can be used for submissions. I think this would be a wonderful idea (although I was under the impression that someone ~was~ already working on similar lines). I would be happy to volunteer my services as a reviewer (without my contact lenses, I am legally blind :-), but not as an editor (sorry, I have very few organizational skills, and no desire to acquire any more). I would also certainly contribute the odd article, whether it was a ``respected journal'' or not. I think it can be an important forum for LP (although I also think that this mailing list/newsgroup is an important forum in and of itself). -- Lee leew@pilot.njin.net blind, ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 12:37:04 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: lbartho@scsun.unige.ch (BARTHOLDI Laurent) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lbartho@SCSUN.UNIGE.CH Subject: Scheme-WEB & Knuth Message-ID: <1993Sep27.164115.29945@news.unige.ch> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 16:41:15 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Hi folks, I was thinking about porting Knuth's WEB to Scheme, a LISP-like dialect. I wanted to make sure nobody was on the same track; or (even worse) that the whole thing had already been done. If somebody has a useful tip to give me, I would also be welcome. My intention was to modify the grammar rules in CWEB. Thanks to all people whoe read this. -- ---------- That was Larry `Hacker' Bartholdi, University of Geneva, Switzerland E-Mail: lbartho@cui.unige.ch S-Mail: Larry Bartholdi Barillette 11 1260 NYON Switzerlan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 13:39:50 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309271810.AA14499@c3serve.c3.lanl.gov> To: LITPROG@shsu.edu Subject: SIGNOFF LITPROG Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 12:10:21 -0600 From: Allen L McPherson Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bhagwan@C3SERVE.C3.LANL.GOV ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 14:00:49 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309271820.AA29198@mailee.bellcore.com> To: "George D. Greenwade" CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 14:20:25 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM > What would the group think of a "refereed electronic periodical" for > literate programming; maybe "Literate Programming Review" or some other > less mundane name?? Short answer: it would be a super idea if you got some real heavyweights on the editorial board. People like Bentley, Van Wyk, or Hanson. The actual editor who does the dirty work needn't be such a heavyweight, but without some such backing I don't think it would be taken seriously outside a very small group. I don't know where you would find an editor who would be willing to put time into making it work. I can ask around... Norman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 14:07:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: rogerb@eiffel.demon.co.uk (Roger Browne) Subject: Literate Programming in Eiffel and PRO-IV Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, rogerb@eiffel.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 16:44:10 +0000 Message-ID: <749148250snz@eiffel.demon.co.uk> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Hi, If you are involved with Literate Programming using the PRO-IV 4GL (which is ideal for literate business programming), I would be interested to hear from you, as I have been using PRO-IV in this way for some years. If you are involved with Literate Programming using Eiffel, I would also be interested to hear from you, as I would like to hear about any available tools or interesting techniques. Eiffel already goes a small part of the way with its executable assertions, expected comments in certain positions, short and flat forms, indexing clause, obsolete clause, etc. -- -- Roger Browne, 6 Bambers Walk, Wesham, PR4 3DG, UK | Ph 0772-687525 -- Everything Eiffel: compilers/libraries/publications | +44-772-687525 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 14:34:46 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199309271931.AA13592@buphy0.bu.edu> To: LITPROG@shsu.edu Subject: SIGNOFF LITPROG Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 15:31:09 -0400 From: Joao Leao Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leao@BUPHY0.BU.EDU ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 15:56:08 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Joachim Schrod) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Subject: Re: Literate Programming for non-imperative languages Date: 27 Sep 1993 20:12:18 GMT Message-ID: <287hf2INNcc3@rs18.hrz.th-darmstadt.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <9309271651.AA03219@rhinoceros.cis.ohio-state.edu>, gurari@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (Eitan Gurari) writes: > > > Right now I'm trying a new > > approach for multi-lingual WEBs that will run within TeX itself. It > > will be quite easy to customize for multiple languages, and you can > > get as much, or as little, pretty-printing as you want. Pictures at 11. > > I tried to build a similar system. > > ProTex.sty -- Literate programming tool > AlProTex.sty -- Tailored adjustments to ProTex.sty Might you tell more about your system? What are its principles, where are its strenghts, etc.? Comparison to other Litprog systems? Needn't be long, just an abstract. You'll make PR for your book. :-) > It can be ftp'ed from > cis.ohio-state.edu (directory pub/tex/osu/gurari): I'll mirror it to the Literate Programming Archive. -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany When it comes to Literate Programming, I get irrational. --- DEK, 16 Jul 93 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 16:17:38 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Joachim Schrod) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: 27 Sep 1993 20:37:51 GMT Message-ID: <287iuvINNcc3@rs18.hrz.th-darmstadt.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <287i4uINNcc3@rs18.hrz.th-darmstadt.de>, schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Joachim Schrod) writes: By god, you're fast. I wrote > has a middle sized system, i.e., something larger than 1MB WEB source > size. Going above ~ 20 MB To save myself from further questions: I would not even *think* about writing a source file of 1 MB. I meant total size of WEB documents, whereby I count specifications and implementations. Documents concerning analysis, design, test, configuration, and the (iterative) software process itself are not included in this figure. -- Joachim ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 16:18:20 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Joachim Schrod) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: 27 Sep 1993 20:23:58 GMT Message-ID: <287i4uINNcc3@rs18.hrz.th-darmstadt.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <009732AB.BC7FD640.23292@SHSU.edu>, "George D. Greenwade" writes: > On Fri, 24 Sep 93 19:15:22 -0400, Norman Ramsey > posted: > >..... > > I think Mr. Gray is slightly misinformed about publication. The days of > > literate programming as a publishing fad have come and gone. Major > > publications are not amused by article about literate programming, and > > papers on literate program do not weigh heavily with those who play the > > publication game. So *I* wouldn't waste *my* time on literate programming > > if all I cared about was getting published. > > What would the group think of a "refereed electronic periodical" for > literate programming; maybe "Literate Programming Review" Not much. The point is, IMNSHO, that the problems where LitProg gets interesting are too large to get published. In particular, we have found that LitProg is of great value if one has a middle sized system, i.e., something larger than 1MB WEB source size. Going above ~ 20 MB the LitProg paradigm gets irrelevant since other problems plague you more. (Yes, we wrote a system in this size. And we wrote some smaller systems with approx. 5 MB code.) How do you want to publish that? Another point: LitProg is very nice in a group where you have a high fluctuation of people working on a project. (Like we have here at the university.) The positive effects of LitProg are in the maintainance phase, not in the development phase. There lies also the problem with Norman's demand of empiric results: Who has the resources to create a controlled experiment that has to last for at least two years with a lot of people? We surely don't. Not that it would matter, IMO: The journals flourish with papers about methods where nobody even bothered to use them in toy projects. Our problem is more that we must introduce more formulisms... -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany When it comes to Literate Programming, I get irrational. --- DEK, 16 Jul 93 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 16:18:58 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Joachim Schrod) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Subject: Re: Scheme-WEB & Knuth Date: 27 Sep 1993 20:30:17 GMT Message-ID: <287igpINNcc3@rs18.hrz.th-darmstadt.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <1993Sep27.164115.29945@news.unige.ch>, lbartho@scsun.unige.ch (BARTHOLDI Laurent) writes: > I was thinking about porting Knuth's WEB to Scheme, a LISP-like dialect. > I wanted to make sure nobody was on the same track; or (even worse) > that the whole thing had already been done. There's schemeweb, though I don't know how good it is. Please post a review, after you've looked at it! The Literate Programming Archive in Darmstadt: ftp.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.55.75] directory pub/programming/literate-programming/lisp/ -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 19:06:42 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: gurari@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (Eitan Gurari) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, gurari@NEWS.CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU Subject: Re: Literate Programming for non-imperative languages Message-ID: <9309272317.AA03473@rhinoceros.cis.ohio-state.edu> Date: 27 Sep 93 15:17:22 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU > From: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Joachim Schrod) > > In article <9309271651.AA03219@rhinoceros.cis.ohio-state.edu>, gurari@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (Eitan Gurari) writes: > > > > > Right now I'm trying a new > > > approach for multi-lingual WEBs that will run within TeX itself. It > > > will be quite easy to customize for multiple languages, and you can > > > get as much, or as little, pretty-printing as you want. Pictures at 11. > > > > I tried to build a similar system. > > > > ProTex.sty -- Literate programming tool > > AlProTex.sty -- Tailored adjustments to ProTex.sty > > Might you tell more about your system? What are its principles, where > are its strenghts, etc.? Comparison to other Litprog systems? I'll try. ADVANTAGES a. Standard advantages of other systems of similar nature (e.g., FunnelWeb, noweb, nuweb): language- independence, concurrent support for development of different pieces of code, simple to use and learn (at its basic level) b. Full integration with (La)TeX: single compilation by (La)TeX produces the document and the code, files decomposition (with \input), portability as (La)TeX c. A small base system (ProTeX, 10K) that is very easy to adjust to different specifications, IF you are familiar with TeX and the system. Well, currently I am the only one belonging to this category, and I don't expect or recommend that many will join me. (I'll be happy to augment AlProTex with additional options if a demand will arise.) DISADVANTAGES a. Poor support for debugging. b. Poor and slow index facilities (automated only for code titles) c. No cross-referencing for code titles. (Such a feature can be implemented, but it probably will slow the system. Personally I prefer to use explicit \Ref and \Tag commands at the few places where I care about cross referencing.) d. No typesetting of code (some of us may consider this property an advantage) > Needn't be long, just an abstract. Hopefully, I stayed within acceptable limits...:-) > You'll make PR for your book. :-) > > > It can be ftp'ed from > > cis.ohio-state.edu (directory pub/tex/osu/gurari): > > I'll mirror it to the Literate Programming Archive. Thanks. --eitan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 21:16:02 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: ross@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Ross Williams) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ross@WATTLE.ITD.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU Subject: Re: Printing funnelweb documentation Date: 28 Sep 93 01:45:21 GMT Message-ID: Keywords: literate progamming tools implementation To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU seiferth@bandelier.cs.unm.edu (Justin Seiferth) writes: >Have you managed to turn the funnelweb documentation into a postscript >document? I'm no TeX/LaTeX weanie and have been unable to figure out >why I can't process the tex documents which come with the distribution. >My attempts to process the documents result in the following error: >% latex u_manual.tex >This is TeX, C Version 3.14t3 >(u_manual.tex >! Undefined control sequence. >l.73 \documentstyle > [titlepage]{book} > ? >If I type "RUN", a multitude of errors appear and a bogus .dvi file >(1 page long) is produced. >If someone could point me towards a ps copy of the documentation or >tell me how I can LaTeX the documents myself I'd greatly appreciate it. >Thanks... >Justin >seiferth@bandelier.cs.unm.edu A week or so ago I was in the US and installed a copy of FunnelWeb for a friend on a DecStation. The installation went fine except for one detail and that was the titlepage in the manual - exactly what you have run into. I have no idea why some LaTeXs have a problem with this - it works on my copy of LaTeX and is documented in the LaTeX user's guide and reference manual by Lamport. The quick fix is simply to delete the code in u_manual.tex or u_ch0.tex (I can't remember which) and do without a titlepage. The good news is that this is the ONLY problem you are likely to ru up against in typesetting the manual. And I had no other problems installing FunnelWeb on the DecStation. So zap the titlepage code and KEEP TRYING! Ross. (Creator of FunnelWeb) +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Name : Dr Ross N. Williams | | Company : RockSoft Pty Ltd (Reg TM Australia, TM USA) | | Net : ross@guest.adelaide.edu.au. | | Fax : +61 8 373-4911 24 hours | | Phone : +61 8 379-9217 24 hours | | Snail : 16 Lerwick Avenue, Hazelwood Park 5066, Australia | | Archive : ftp.adelaide.edu.au/pub/compression and /funnelweb | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 00:34:22 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: sheeran@ndg.co.jp (Sheeran Frank) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, sheeran@NDG.CO.JP Subject: Re: RE: New Math Notation #3107 Message-ID: <1993Sep28.033942.6789@omrongw.wg.omron.co.jp> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 03:39:42 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU > |>Literate programming uses additional fonts and symbols to make the code > |>much more intelligable. Instead of using .NE., <>, or != to mean "not > |>equals", literate programs print and display the code using a standard > |>mathmatical not-equals sign. Assignments are shown using a left pointing > |>arrow. This is like an American making Japanese change their word order to that of English, and saying, "There, much more understandable, right?" The fact is many programmers have more experience with, say, C than with math notation. Just as you can't say "Latin is better grammar than French" you can't rank math notation as "better" than C. Languages and notations communicate, and I am communicated to better with a != than a slashed equals sign. I don't stop and think "Gee, an exclamation point followed by an equals sign, how wierd" every time I see it. A source browser that let people select the notation they were most used to would be apropos. Most people understand most quickly the notation they are most used to; let them select it off a menu. I agree that no notation is good in all circumstances - math and its one-character identifiers, C and its . * precedence foulup, but I am more efficient at a bad C I am used to than a new notation. I still type QWERTY for the same reason (though I *have* written an article on a new keyboard layout for Japanese :) Frank Sheeran, Omron Data General KK, Tokyo from addresses outside of Japan, please e-mail to sheeran_f@odg.ceo.dg.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 01:38:35 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: bill@cygnus.com (Bill Cox) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bill@CYGNUS.COM Subject: Re: Multiple 'find & replace'? Message-ID: <39005@toad.com> Date: 27 Sep 93 19:46:22 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU >A friend of mine is working as a translator, translating between Swedish and >Danish, two very similar language. He feels that it would save a vast amount of >time if he could have a wordbank of, say, fivehundred words that he could use >for doing some kind of multiple 'search & replace' on his mac. >My question is this: is there a program that does multiple search and replace >(automated)? And where can he find it. I assume there must be a program like >that out there, so please help me out! Under either DOS or Unix, I would recommend using a 'sed' script. You can feed 'sed' a file that looks like this: s/car/auto/ s/boy/young man/ ... and it will replace each occurence of 'car' with 'auto'. One of the pitfalls is that it will also replace 'scar', with 'sauto'. Try the O'Reilly book titled "Sed and Awk". ISBN 0-937175-59-5. There is a GNU version of sed, available from prep.ai.mit.edu as C source code, so you or your friend might have to compile the C source and make a mac executable... -- bill@cygnus.com IBM, DEC and Honeywell, HP, DG and Wang Amdahl, NEC and NCR, they don't know anything They make big bucks on systems, so they never want it known That you can build a mainframe from the things you find at home. - Bill Sutton on "The Funniest Computer Songs" tape ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 04:08:00 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: monnier@hebe.nectar.cs.cmu.edu (Stefan Monnier) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, monnier@HEBE.NECTAR.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 06:40:15 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article , Yan Xiao wrote: >tzs@stein1.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes: > >>In article , >>>> d = c+1/c; //guaranttees: d>2 >>.. >>>> assertion at line 7 (d>2) not guarantteed. Best possible: d>=2. >>> >>>I think you mean >>> >>>assertion at line 7 (d>2) not guaranteed. Best possible: d>=0. >>> >>>Consider the case of c == 2 (which makes d = 1.5) . > >>Ever hear of precedence? c+1/c means c+(1/c), not (c+1)/c. > >Consider the case of c = -1. d = (-1) + ( 1/(-1)) = (-1) + (-1) = -2. >Or worse when c = 0. Ahem: the line right before was a "read c" with a "require c>0" >I missed something or what!? Should this group be better called >comp.programming.ILliterate? maybe comp.programming.blind ? :-) Stefan -- ----------------------------------------------------- -- On the average, people seem to be acting normal -- ----------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 05:10:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309281007.AA01990@aleph> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu CC: dentato@aleph.ing.uniroma1.it Subject: Re: Literate implementations of literate tools. Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 11:07:11 +0100 From: dentato@aleph.ing.uniroma1.it Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dentato@ALEPH.ING.UNIROMA1.IT >I've noticed someone suggesting that it is hypocritical to write a >literate programming tool in a non-literate style. > >I disagree. Writing a literate tool using itself is just asking for >trouble. What if the only executable is accidentally deleted?! Better >to keep the implementation of the literate tool "clean". I strongly disagree! I think that a literate programming tool should be the first example of using the tool itself. The problems of accidentally erase your executable is a matter of organization. I've written a nuweb-compatible litprog tool that use only ascii (I've not finished the formatting part, but the generation of code is very fast and uses very little memory: I've to work on micros too :-)). Anyway, it was the first program written using itself and I had no problems of loosing executables or such. Remo Dentato. Oh! By the way: I call my tool Aracne, let me know if there are some tool with the same name!! ___ __ Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" //_/// \ Dipartimento di Informatica e Sistemistica // \//__/ Via Buonarroti 12 00184 Roma (Italy) Remo Dentato tel: +39-6-4873689 fax: +39-6-4873628 email: dentato@cadgroup.ing.uniroma1.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 06:11:06 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 12:08 +0000 (GMT) From: "Eric W. van Ammers, LUW, tel: (+31)8370-83356" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, AMMERS@RCL.WAU.NL Subject: Re: What LP means to you To: LITPROG@shsu.edu Message-ID: <01H3HC56P5UO8ZIVKQ@RCL.WAU.NL> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Recently the question of using literate programming to prove the code of a program, has been discussed. IMO this is aspect is one of the more important characteristics of LP and it should be exploited. Remember that Dijkstra promoted the idea that programs and their proofs should be developped simultaniously. A comparable opinion can be found in Brooks "No silver Bullit". LP is very well suited to this task. One has the option to argue the correctness of the code by informal arguments or by proofs in the style of a mathematical textboork (often referred as "informal rigor"). In the exceptional case that the code is verfied by a therem prover, the provers report can be included. ============================================================================ Eric W. van Ammers Department of Computer Science Wageningen Agricultural University Dreijenplein 2 E-mail: ammers@rcl.wau.nl 6703 HB Wageningen voice: +31 (0)8370 83356/84154 The Netherlands fax: +31 (0)8370 84731 ============================================================================ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 06:57:40 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 12:49 +0000 (GMT) From: "Eric W. van Ammers, LUW, tel: (+31)8370-83356" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, AMMERS@RCL.WAU.NL Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <01H3HDKHC0NK8ZIVKQ@RCL.WAU.NL> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Norman Ramsey writes ==There's little evidence that literate-programming tools can really ==give us better programs (although there are True Believers, of whom I ==am one). I'm a true bleleiver too and I'm slightly less pessimistic here. The work of Oman is at least a hint at the value of literate programming. - Oman, Typographical style is more than cosmetic, CACM 33, 5, 506-520 - Oman, the book paradigm for imporved maintenance, IEEE software 1990 pg 39-45 Eric van Ammers ============================================================================ Eric W. van Ammers Department of Computer Science Wageningen Agricultural University Dreijenplein 2 E-mail: ammers@rcl.wau.nl 6703 HB Wageningen voice: +31 (0)8370 83356/84154 The Netherlands fax: +31 (0)8370 84731 ============================================================================ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 07:37:46 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: laakkone@plootu.Helsinki.FI (Tero Laakkonen) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, laakkone@PLOOTU.HELSINKI.FI Subject: cancel my subscription to the mailing list Date: 28 Sep 1993 13:49:33 +0200 Message-ID: <2898cd$gsd@plootu.Helsinki.FI> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU thanks. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 07:47:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 08:15:40 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9309281215.AA16332@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lbartho@scsun.unige.ch.ae.ge.com.ae.ge.com CC: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Subject: Re: Scheme-WEB & Knuth Hi, I know that there is a SCHEMEWEB but it is only a TeX commenting scheme! It is not a full literate programming tool. However I would try the spider web repositories first. Osman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 08:51:09 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: everettm@merlin.think.com (Mark J. Everett) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, everettm@MERLIN.THINK.COM Subject: Re: Multiple 'find & replace'? Date: 28 Sep 93 08:56:54 Message-ID: To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article <2874sb$k3a@nic.lth.se> dat91msu@ludat.lth.se (Martin Sunnerdahl) writes: Hi. A friend of mine is working as a translator, translating between Swedish and Danish, two very similar language. He feels that it would save a vast amount of time if he could have a wordbank of, say, fivehundred words that he could use for doing some kind of multiple 'search & replace' on his mac. My question is this: is there a program that does multiple search and replace (automated)? And where can he find it. I assume there must be a program like that out there, so please help me out! I would be surprised if there weren't some version of awk that didn't run on the Mac. It is very simple to program. I would guess, however, that he wants to search and replace word processing files rather than plain text. That would be much more difficult. -- DISCLAIMER: These opinions are mine, all mine. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 08:51:30 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: lynbech@daimi.aau.dk (Christian Lynbech) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lynbech@DAIMI.AAU.DK Subject: Re: New Math Notation #3107 Date: 28 Sep 1993 12:52:18 GMT Message-ID: <289c22$9st@belfort.daimi.aau.dk> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Thus spake sheeran@ndg.co.jp (Sheeran Frank): >> |>Literate programming uses additional fonts and symbols to make the code >> |>much more intelligable. Instead of using .NE., <>, or != to mean "not >> |>equals", literate programs print and display the code using a standard >> |>mathmatical not-equals sign. Assignments are shown using a left pointing >> |>arrow. >This is like an American making Japanese change their word order to >that of English, and saying, "There, much more understandable, right?" >The fact is many programmers have more experience with, say, C than >with math notation. Just as you can't say "Latin is better grammar >than French" you can't rank math notation as "better" than C. [...rest deleted...] I think the important is not as much math vs. C, but rather the full capability of (say) TeX typesetting vs. the severe restrictions of a typical C compiler (i.e. dvi vs. latin 1) What to do with the additional power of typesetting is a matter for the writer. Truely, condensed maths with lots of greek letters and subtle implications from simple equations, can be as confusing as an obscure pointer feature. The important point (to me at least) is that Literate Programming generally makes this possible, by the interweaving of typesetting and programming. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christian Lynbech | Hit the philistines three times over the office: R0.32 phone: 5034 | head with the Elisp reference manual. email: lynbech@daimi.aau.dk | - petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 08:52:00 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: lynbech@daimi.aau.dk (Christian Lynbech) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lynbech@DAIMI.AAU.DK Subject: LitProg Review (was Re: What does literate programming mean to you?) Date: 28 Sep 1993 13:04:31 GMT Message-ID: <289cov$ac7@belfort.daimi.aau.dk> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Thus spake norman@bellcore.com: >> What would the group think of a "refereed electronic periodical" for >> literate programming; maybe "Literate Programming Review" or some other >> less mundane name?? >Short answer: it would be a super idea if you got some real >heavyweights on the editorial board. People like Bentley, Van Wyk, or >Hanson. The actual editor who does the dirty work needn't be such a >heavyweight, but without some such backing I don't think it would be >taken seriously outside a very small group. It depends much upon what you want to acheive. If academic fame is required, only the heavyweights will do, but if the emphasis is more on producing better programs, any board of knowledgeable and experienced LitProg'ers (or even just) programmers should suffice. But as someone else (Joachim Schrod?) has mentioned, the real significance comes for real projects, i.e. large examples of thousands of lines. And I would very much doubt that anybody would want to go into that game, unless being part of the development itself, as seen in companies using reviews to produce better code. But from an educational point of view, it may make sense after all. People experimenting with LitProgramming (or using it for small 1 person projects), could have their code reviewed, and perhaps published in whatever fora. This would give all contributors valuable critique and evaluation, and provide everyone with a body of nice, reviewed works, to learn from. >I don't know where you would find an editor who would be willing to >put time into making it work. I can ask around... I definitely like the idea. Perhaps it even applies to the Usenet University (not that I no much about that). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christian Lynbech | Hit the philistines three times over the office: R0.32 phone: 5034 | head with the Elisp reference manual. email: lynbech@daimi.aau.dk | - petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 09:53:03 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: ciemjw@sealion.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com (Jon Weygandt) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ciemjw@SEALION.SSD.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM Subject: Re: New Math Notation #3107 Message-ID: Date: 28 Sep 1993 14:15:21 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU I new to literate programming, but not engineering and could not resist jumping in on this topic ... >In article <1993Sep27.141742.1104@dxcern.cern.ch> hallam@dxal18.cern.ch (HALLAM-BAKER Phillip) writes: > In article <9309261452.memo.19736@BIX.com>, Jeffrey McArthur writes: > ... > |>I disagree strongly with these statements. Literate Programming is an > |>attemp to FIX the serious problems with C and FORTRAN style notation. C > |>and FORTRAN can be very difficult to understand. Particularly if you are > |>doing vector or tensor calculations. The notation used is almost > |>unintelligable. Mathmatical notation is much cleaner. That is why, using ^^^^^^^^^^^^ but not always complete ... > |>literate programming, it is desirable to include as part of the program the > |>full mathmatical description. > |> ... > I don't see these ideas as mutually contradictory. Standard computer languages > are poor in this area, but standard maths is also poor in certain areas - > the use of juxtaposition to impy multiplication is a dreadful feature > for example that should be removed from standard notation. It prevents the > use of meaningful identifiers with multiple characters. ... 2 specific examples of where real world engineering notation omit some very cirtical information necessary for precise implementation, the information is apparent in the context of how it is used, but even to the human reader it may not be obvious: Vectors: The standard vector notation does not differentate between "free vectors" and "bound vectors". A "free vector" is a vector that has magnitude and direction. A "bound vector" is one that has magnitude, direction and is attached to the origin, or said differently describes a position in space. This distinction needs to be made in the area of geometry modeling, since points in space are bound. Operations such as vector addition on two bound vectors is invalid, however one can do a difference and produce a free vector. One can also add a bound and free to produce a free. Also transformation upon a bound vector must take into account the translation of the origin, whereas transformation of free vectors only consider rotation (speaking of only basic rotations and translation in cartesian space, what perspective transformations and others mean for for free vectors I haven't yet considered) Units, Temperatures: It is standard to apply a simple unit designation after a number, but in the case of temperature there is a similar concept as to vectors. There exist actual temperatures of objects "absolute temperatures" and there exist temperature differences "relative temperatures". Similar restrictions on addition, subtraction, and unit transformation exist. (eg. In the real world we could have two rooms, say one at 60 deg F and one at 70 deg F. It would not be defined to say add the two room temperatures togeter and get 130 deg F (or even worse xxx deg R) but it would make sense to say the difference between two rooms is 10 deg F (note the same notation for the values:-)). -- Jon Weygandt Lockheed Missiles and Space Co. Sunnyvale CA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 11:04:02 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 12:01:17 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, lbartho@scsun.unige.ch Subject: Re: Scheme-WEB & Knuth Message-ID: Larry Bartholdi writes: > Hi folks, > I was thinking about porting Knuth's WEB to Scheme, a LISP-like dialect. > I wanted to make sure nobody was on the same track; or (even worse) > that the whole thing had already been done. > If somebody has a useful tip to give me, I would also be welcome. > My intention was to modify the grammar rules in CWEB. > Thanks to all people whoe read this. You might want to try using Spidery WEB instead of doing it by hand. You specify the grammar, and it generates the programs. If you're interested, I have the beginnings of a Spidery grammar for Scheme. My grammar (very rudimentary -- it was just a test to see if I could do it) typesets the normal Scheme S-expressions in a form more like McCarthy's original M-expressions, which I find to be much more readable. Send me direct mail (not to the list) if you'd like me to send you a copy. -- Lee leew@pilot.njin.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 12:31:44 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Subject: Re: LitProg Review (was Re: What does literate programming mean to you?) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 16:43:56 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU >>>>> On 28 Sep 1993 13:04:31 GMT, lynbech@daimi.aau.dk (Christian Lynbech) said: |> Thus spake norman@bellcore.com: >> What would the group think of a "refereed electronic periodical" for >> literate programming; maybe "Literate Programming Review" or some other >> less mundane name?? [...] |> But from an educational point of view, it may make sense after all. People |> experimenting with LitProgramming (or using it for small 1 person projects), |> could have their code reviewed, and perhaps published in whatever fora. This |> would give all contributors valuable critique and evaluation, and provide |> everyone with a body of nice, reviewed works, to learn from. >I don't know where you would find an editor who would be willing to >put time into making it work. I can ask around... |> I definitely like the idea. Perhaps it even applies to the Usenet University |> (not that I no much about that). I can speak for Usenet University since I am on its board of directors. We are currently discussing the curriculum for our first semester on the internet (spring 94)-- we would certainly be honored to host a LitProg Review enterprise, though I can't say whether we can allocate any manpower for it. We would like to bundle any sort of "virtual" educational activity -- a journal which is unlikely to ever never appear on real paper fits in this category. We already have: a list of electronic consultants, a collaborative (Hyper-) textbook project, an internet meta library, and a virtual campus. To offer a beginner's course on LitProg would be another nice course offer. Any help/suggestion is welcome. I will bring up the Review issue on the next board meeting on Thursday [a virtual meeting on MediaMOO at MIT]. ------------------------------------ UU Net Information. FYI, Usenet University--Global Network Academy [GNA], Inc. is a non-profit corporation incorporated in the state of Texas, affiliated with the Usenet University project. The bulk of information on GNA is available via WWW: http://uu-gna.mit.edu:8001/index.html For info on how to get there, get /pub/outgoing/WWW-Access.txt from ftp.desy.de [131.169.10.38] via anonymous ftp. To be included on our mailing list discussing internet curricular questions, send empty Email to listserv@moose.uvm.edu General discussion on GNA maaters takes place on the Usenet group alt.uu.future. -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Marcus Speh, II.Inst.Theor.Physik,Luruper Chaussee 149, 22761 Hamburg,Germany Phone: +49-40 8998 2178, Fax: +49-40 8998 2267, Private: +49-40 801392 E-mail: , ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 13:29:20 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: sboyle@wv.MENTORG.COM (Sean Boyle x1542) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, sboyle@WV.MENTORG.COM Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 11:25:54 -0700 Message-ID: <9309281825.AA00465@porkface.mentorg.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Literate Programming for non-imperative languages I tried to build a similar system. It can be ftp'ed from cis.ohio-state.edu (directory pub/tex/osu/gurari): ProTex.sty -- Literate programming tool AlProTex.sty -- Tailored adjustments to ProTex.sty The manual (``TeX and LaTeX: Drawing and Literate Programming. McGraw-Hill'' ISBN 0-07-025208-4) will be published by McGraw-Hill in the very near future (currently in print). -eitan Do you have any other documentation on it until this comes out? Is there .tex files to work with plain TeX instead of LaTeX? I had thoughts of doing a similar sort of thing myself, but I'm not a power TeX programmer. This would be a boon, not having a million support programmes in order to weave and tangle. Also, do you have an emacs mode for this? +------------------------+------------------------------+ | sean_boyle@mentorg.com | Mentor Graphics Corporation | | uunet!mntgfx!sboyle | 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road | | | Wilsonville, OR 97070-7777 | | "Intrinsically lazy, therefore creative" | +------------------------+------------------------------+ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 18:35:48 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 18:07:36 CDT From: "C. M. Sperberg-McQueen" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, U35395%UICVM.BITNET@SHSU.EDU Subject: Bootstrapping and LP tools To: litprog@SHSU.edu In the discussion over whether literate-programming tools should or should not be implemented in the languages they define, I think the humility of Preston Briggs and Norman Ramsey may have allowed a misconception to take root. Nuweb, at least, is in fact implemented in nuweb, and provides a nice little test of literate programming tools: is the program easier to understand even when the document is still incomplete? (Remember, this is version 0.8!) Nuweb passes this test with flying colors. Even though the commentary becomes rather sparse during the chapter on The Overall Structure, and mostly non-existent in the chapter on The Support Routines, nuweb is still more legible than the other C programs of comparable size and complexity that I have come into contact with, because of the cross-referencing between scraps of code and because of the index. I can make this comparison with some confidence, because I just finished porting nuweb to VM/CMS, in about three hours of work (including probably forty-five minutes wasted trying to remember how the debugger works, and interrupted by several hours during which my subconscious mulled over the problems, and eventually realized that ASCII is a seven-bit and EBCDIC an eight-bit character set). This compares favorably with other software I have ported, which has taken days or (in one case, where the thing never did actually run) weeks. Of course, this could be because Preston Briggs writes cleaner code, but perhaps he does that because he's using a web system. While I agree that more commentary would make nuweb a more readable program, I disagree firmly with those who claim it isn't literate, in any useful sense, now. If anyone else can use a VM/CMS version of nuweb, they should let me know. -C. M. Sperberg-McQueen ACH / ACL / ALLC Text Encoding Initiative University of Illinois at Chicago u35395@uicvm.uic.edu / u35395@uicvm ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 19:12:23 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9309290008.AA01441@echidna.rp.CSIRO.AU> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: What does literate programming mean to you? Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 10:08:10 +1000 From: kcousins@rp.csiro.au Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kcousins@RP.CSIRO.AU Eric van Ammers writes: > - Oman, Typographical style is more than cosmetic, CACM 33, 5, 506-520 > - Oman, the book paradigm for imporved maintenance, IEEE software 1990 > pg 39-45 Nice articles. If anyone on LitProg hasn't already checked them out, get them now. Honestly, trying to write code that uses this book paradigm can get to be a real pain in the ass. To discover an entire battery of tools available (ala LitProg) is a real blessing, despite al the recent arguments about their relevance. --Kevin. ________________________________________________________________________ Kevin Cousins | kcousins@rp.csiro.au | Ph: +61 2 868 0425 Fax: +61 2 868 0490 _--_|\ _ _ . _ _ CSIRO / Division of Radiophysics / \ / ` ( ` / /_) / ) Cnr Vimiera & Pembroke Rds \_.--\_* (_, ._) / / \ (_/ Marsfield NSW 2121 v ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 22:35:32 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 18:48:25 EDT From: "Edward F. Keith" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ed@EFKPORT.KEW.COM Message-ID: <2ca8bf3a.efkport@efkport.kew.com> To: "Literate Programming List" Subject: Re: Literate implementations of literate tools. On Tue, 28 Sep 93 11:07:11 +0100, dentato@aleph.ing.uniroma1.IT wrote: > Oh! By the way: I call my tool Aracne, let me know if there are some tool with > the same name!! In the preface to Holub's book "Compiler Design in C" he says that he used a tool call arahne. I know nothing more about it. -EdK ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 03:36:43 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 08:24 +0000 (GMT) From: "Eric W. van Ammers, LUW, tel: (+31)8370-83356" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, AMMERS@RCL.WAU.NL Subject: Re: LitProg Review (was Re: What does literate programming mean to you?) To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <01H3IILWF5GW8ZINQ4@RCL.WAU.NL> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > We would like to bundle any sort of "virtual" educational >activity -- a journal which is unlikely to ever never appear on real >paper fits in this category. We already have: a list of electronic >consultants, a collaborative (Hyper-) textbook project, an internet >meta library, and a virtual campus. I like the ida very much, but my mainproblem is the following. Scientists in a university environment are (at least in my country, Holland) graded mainly by there so called output, ie. publications in scientific journals. How likely is it for such an electronic journal to be appreciated on this level. More precisely, will there be a change that it will be considered for citation indexes and the like? Eric ============================================================================ Eric W. van Ammers Department of Computer Science Wageningen Agricultural University Dreijenplein 2 E-mail: ammers@rcl.wau.nl 6703 HB Wageningen voice: +31 (0)8370 83356/84154 The Netherlands fax: +31 (0)8370 84731 ============================================================================ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 08:34:28 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 08:34:09 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, AMMERS@RCL.WAU.NL Message-ID: <0097342B.DDE7C0A0.2079@SHSU.edu> Subject: Re: LitProg Review (was Re: What does literate programming mean to you?) On Wed, 29 Sep 1993 08:24 +0000 (GMT), "Eric W. van Ammers" posted: > > We would like to bundle any sort of "virtual" educational > >activity -- a journal which is unlikely to ever never appear on real > >paper fits in this category. We already have: a list of electronic > >consultants, a collaborative (Hyper-) textbook project, an internet > >meta library, and a virtual campus. > > I like the ida very much, but my mainproblem is the following. Scientists > in a university environment are (at least in my country, Holland) graded > mainly by there so called output, ie. publications in scientific journals. > How likely is it for such an electronic journal to be appreciated on this > level. More precisely, will there be a change that it will be considered > for citation indexes and the like? I think your "output" model can be expanded to most academics in most fields in most nations (so long as the periodical is recognized as being within the generalized field of the individual). The concept of electronic publishing is new to the universe, so how it is perceived is undoubtedly still subject to question. Should a new untenured faculty member seeking recognition publish in this media if alternate already-recognized media exists? If the output model is followed as it presently stands, very probably not; (s)he'd be much beter off following the traditional course. More to the specific point of what I asked (and everyone who has responded about this -- thanks, you've not been forgotted; I've simply been swamped in recent days, but you'll hear): > How likely is it for such an electronic journal to be appreciated on this > level. More precisely, will there be a change that it will be considered > for citation indexes and the like? This is a semi-unique case, IMO (or following Joachim, it should really be IMNSHO, which is basically how you can always read my IMO's) as the area of literate programming is not presently being served by the traditional media, at least insofar as I can discern. If literate programming (or any underserved field) is indeed an area of research and discourse, an electronic journal may be one of the singly most appreciated periodicals within its field -- and very likely will show up in citation indices (I know of two instances presently in psychology where electronic periodicals are routinely included in citation indices). Is this a risky venture for the author? Yes, as there are few existing models to compare it against. Is it a venture with potentially high merit? Yes, as it facilitates discourse in an underserved area. Is this a project which has a multitude of spin-offs? Yes, as it assists in developing the model which subsequent tasks in other areas may compare themselves to. Is this an "open" project? Yes, due to an entirely different set of costs, academics, practitioners, and developers may have complete exchanges since the cost and page limitations are removed. Is this a grounds for extending the field covered by the periodical? Yes, due to quick turnaround, publishing queues are minimized -- meaning that research, developments, and ideas can quickly come into the focus of discussions (I don't know about your field(s), but in economics, the publishing queues for some journals now approach 3 years, meaning that the articles are stale by the time readers actually get to them). In other words, can I (or anyone) promise that publishing in such a forum is a guarantee for parallel recognition to publishing in, say, the ACM? No. However, can you (or anyone) promise that publishing in such a forum will not be viewed as superior to the ACM within a short period of time if the contents of the effort are on-point and extensible? No. Regards, George %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% George D. Greenwade, Ph.D. Bitnet: BED_GDG@SHSU Department of Economics and Business Analysis THEnet: SHSU::BED_GDG College of Business Administration Voice: (409) 294-1266 P. O. Box 2118 FAX: (409) 294-3612 Sam Houston State University Internet: bed_gdg@SHSU.edu Huntsville, TX 77341 bed_gdg%SHSU.decnet@relay.the.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 10:13:05 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 11:10:35 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Notation issues Message-ID: A number of people have expressed opinions on the subject of LP and mathematical notation, and I guess I just can't keep my big mouth shut. It has often been noted that the bulk of programming language discussions center around points of syntax, rather than more substantive issues. While I agree that notation (language) shapes the way we think, and is therefore important, I believe that is important not to forget that the purpose of notation (language) is ~communication~. Therefore, I think that some kind of standardization of notation is useful, regardless of which notation is chosen as the standard. Today's common programming languages provide multiple examples of what I mean. On the plus side, almost every language uses `*' for multiplication, and the rules for identifiers are pretty much the same. On the other hand, the assignment and logical operators vary widely (e.g., `=', `:=', `SET/TO' for the former). The primary reason I prefer the ``formatting'' LP systems (like CWEB) to the ``nonformatting'' systems (like noweb) is that they provide a more standardized notation. I can look at a WEB, CWEB, or FWEB, and not have to remember what the assignment operator is for the particular base language -- they all use (or can use) `\gets'. Although I am (like many of you are) more comfortable with programming than mathematical notation, like Gulliver, I believe that getting the egg open is more important than which end you crack. Mathematical notation for logical operators has been around a great deal longer than any of the programming notations, so I'm perfectly willing to ``standardize'' on it, rather than search for the elusive perfect notation. -- Lee leew@pilot.njin.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 10:31:00 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: bvd@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au (Brian Denehy) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bvd@SSERVE.CC.ADFA.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Printing funnelweb documentation Message-ID: <1993Sep28.233927.11897@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> Keywords: literate progamming tools implementation Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 23:39:27 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article ross@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Ross Williams) writes: >seiferth@bandelier.cs.unm.edu (Justin Seiferth) writes: > > >>% latex u_manual.tex >>This is TeX, C Version 3.14t3 >>(u_manual.tex >>! Undefined control sequence. >>l.73 \documentstyle >> [titlepage]{book} >> ? > >>If I type "RUN", a multitude of errors appear and a bogus .dvi file >>(1 page long) is produced. > >>If someone could point me towards a ps copy of the documentation or >>tell me how I can LaTeX the documents myself I'd greatly appreciate it. > >>Thanks... >>Justin >>seiferth@bandelier.cs.unm.edu > >A week or so ago I was in the US and installed a copy of FunnelWeb for >a friend on a DecStation. The installation went fine except for one >detail and that was the titlepage in the manual - exactly what you >have run into. I have no idea why some LaTeXs have a problem with this >- it works on my copy of LaTeX and is documented in the LaTeX user's >guide and reference manual by Lamport. The error message above would suggest that TeX can't find the titlepage set of macros in its path. Install the following as titlepage.sty in the directory in which you have the documentation or with the rest of the TeX macros if you have access to that directory. ------snip-here--------------------------- % titlepage.sty 27 Jan 85 \def\maketitle{\begin{titlepage} \let\footnotesize\small \let\footnoterule\relax \setcounter{page}{0} \null \vfil \vskip 60pt \begin{center} {\LARGE \@title \par} \vskip 3em {\large \lineskip .75em \begin{tabular}[t]{c}\@author \end{tabular}\par} \vskip 1.5em {\large \@date \par} \end{center} \par \@thanks \vfil \null \end{titlepage} \setcounter{footnote}{0} \let\thanks\relax \gdef\@thanks{}\gdef\@author{}\gdef\@title{}\let\maketitle\relax} \def\abstract{\titlepage \null\vfil \begin{center} {\bf Abstract} \end{center}} \def\endabstract{\par\vfil\null\endtitlepage} ------snip-here------------------------------- -- Brian Denehy, Internet: B-Denehy@adfa.oz.au Computing Services MHSnet: B-Denehy@cc.adfa.oz.au Australian Defence Force Academy UUCP:!uunet!munnari.oz.au!cc.adfa.oz.au!bvd Northcott Dr. Campbell ACT Australia 2600 +61 6 268 8141 +61 6 268 8150 (Fax) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 10:54:50 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 11:50:29 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, U35395@uicvm.bitnet Subject: Re: Bootstrapping and LP tools Message-ID: C. M. Sperberg-McQueen writes of the ease of porting nuweb to VM/CMS (see below). I would like to echo his comments, at least in regard to noweb. Because noweb is (minimally) implemented in itself, it was very easy to port to MS-DOS. In fact, the only problems I had were bugs in MKS Awk and the draconian restrictions MS-DOS imposes on batch files. The same comments hold true for porting CWEB, and I presume, FWEB, FunnelWEB, CLiP, and the rest :-). -- Lee leew@pilot.njin.net ------------- > In the discussion over whether literate-programming tools should or > should not be implemented in the languages they define, I think the > humility of Preston Briggs and Norman Ramsey may have allowed a > misconception to take root. Nuweb, at least, is in fact implemented in > nuweb, and provides a nice little test of literate programming tools: > is the program easier to understand even when the document is still > incomplete? (Remember, this is version 0.8!) > > Nuweb passes this test with flying colors. Even though the commentary > becomes rather sparse during the chapter on The Overall Structure, and > mostly non-existent in the chapter on The Support Routines, nuweb is > still more legible than the other C programs of comparable size and > complexity that I have come into contact with, because of the > cross-referencing between scraps of code and because of the index. > > I can make this comparison with some confidence, because I just finished > porting nuweb to VM/CMS, in about three hours of work (including > probably forty-five minutes wasted trying to remember how the debugger > works, and interrupted by several hours during which my subconscious > mulled over the problems, and eventually realized that ASCII is a > seven-bit and EBCDIC an eight-bit character set). This compares > favorably with other software I have ported, which has taken days or (in > one case, where the thing never did actually run) weeks. Of course, > this could be because Preston Briggs writes cleaner code, but perhaps he > does that because he's using a web system. > > While I agree that more commentary would make nuweb a more readable > program, I disagree firmly with those who claim it isn't literate, in > any useful sense, now. > > If anyone else can use a VM/CMS version of nuweb, they should let me > know. > > > -C. M. Sperberg-McQueen > ACH / ACL / ALLC Text Encoding Initiative > University of Illinois at Chicago > u35395@uicvm.uic.edu / u35395@uicvm > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 11:13:46 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 12:09:49 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, AMMERS@rcl.wau.nl Subject: Re: LitProg Review (was Re: What does literate programming mean to you?) Message-ID: Eric van Ammers writes: > > We would like to bundle any sort of "virtual" educational > >activity -- a journal which is unlikely to ever never appear on real > >paper fits in this category. We already have: a list of electronic > >consultants, a collaborative (Hyper-) textbook project, an internet > >meta library, and a virtual campus. > > I like the ida very much, but my mainproblem is the following. > Scientists in a university environment are (at least in my country, Holland) > graded mainly by there so called output, ie. publications in scientific > journals. How likely is it for such an electronic journal to be appreciated > on this level. More precisely, will there be a change that it will be > considered for citation indexes and the like? We have the same problem here in the States. However, if we think the electronic journal is a Good Thing (and I do), I say we should ``damn the torpedoes; full speed ahead!'' The Internet is changing the way Academia works, and it is up to us to educate our administrators as to the way things work today. This discussion group, for example, has been worth more to me than a dozen traditional conferences or journals would have been. The only downside is not being able to get together over coffee or lunch and talk things over face to face, although in some cases that might be an advantage :-). -- Lee leew@pilot.njin.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 11:18:33 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: gurari@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (Eitan Gurari) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, gurari@NEWS.CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU Subject: Re: Literate Programming for non-imperative languages Message-ID: <9309290519.AA04717@rhinoceros.cis.ohio-state.edu> Date: 28 Sep 93 21:19:31 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU > From: sboyle@wv.MENTORG.COM (Sean Boyle x1542) > > > It can be ftp'ed from cis.ohio-state.edu Correction to my previous posting: `ftp.cis.ohio-state.edu' instead of `cis.ohio-state.edu' > > The manual ... will be published ... in the very near future I got my copy today, so I guess that the book is already out. > Do you have any other documentation on it until this comes out? I added to my ftp directory a file `Examples.tex' that produces few pieces of code from my book. Some of these pieces might give an idea on how ProTeX+AlProTex work (their names start with `exr222'). Also, I'll be happy to demonstrate my system (through private communication) to you and others by converting into literate form short files that will be mailed to me. > Is there .tex files to work with plain TeX instead of LaTeX? I am not sure that I understand the problem. Do you mean that your system doesn't provide for direct access to .sty files like `ProTex.sty'? (In the environment that I am using I just need to issue commands of the form `\input ProTex.sty'.) > Also, do you have an emacs mode for this? Unfortunately, no (I am a nonsophisticated heavy user of emacs). --eitan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 17:29:34 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Subject: Re: LitProg Review (was Re: What does literate programming mean to Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 21:29:50 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Marcus: > We would like to bundle any sort of "virtual" educational >activity -- a journal which is unlikely to ever appear on real >paper fits in this category. We already have: a list of electronic >consultants, a collaborative (Hyper-) textbook project, an internet >meta library, and a virtual campus. Eric van Ammers: |> I like the idea very much, but my main problem is the following. |> Scientists in a university environment are (at least in my country,Holland) |> graded mainly by there so called output, ie. publications in scientific |> journals. How likely is it for such an electronic journal to be appreciated |> on this level. More precisely, will there be a change that it will be |> considered for citation indexes and the like? It is our long-term goal to create an fully accredited online university. GNA is also the world's first virtual corporation, and therefore also serves as a testbed for running organizations in the 21st century. That any kind of "virtual" activity still carries the stigma of non-seriousness is mainly due to the fact that the whole field is very young and under hectic development - count the articles on the "Information super highway" in international news magazines...I think the world doesn't have a definition for "multimedia" yet -- it is important to start a non-profit enterprise right now. Nobody can foresee how accepted such a (purely electronic) journal will be. In High Energy Physics I have witnessed the rise of preprint bulletin boards which are in fact so much wanted by people (working scientists, between Bombay and Berkeley) that they endanger the existence of regular journals with their paper and staff costs etc. Our central library (of the biggest HEP lab in Germany) has almost ceased to distribute anything else but electronic preprints--I take things like this as a sign for change. This is not to say that mechanisms like peer review etc would (or should) be given up--their adequate translations for electronic media have to be found (examples do exist). Also I second Norman's view that "big names" are needed to convince people of the nobility of the endeavour. Thank you for your interest! -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Marcus Speh, II.Inst.Theor.Physik,Luruper Chaussee 149, 22761 Hamburg,Germany Phone: +49-40 8998 2178, Fax: +49-40 8998 2267, Private: +49-40 801392 E-mail: , ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 20:49:10 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 20:48:17 CDT From: fulling@sarastro.math.tamu.edu (Stephen A. Fulling) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, fulling@SARASTRO.MATH.TAMU.EDU Message-ID: <9309300148.AA15455@sarastro.math.tamu.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, bed_gdg@shsu.edu Subject: Refereed electronic periodical for Literate Programming CC: fulling@sarastro.math.tamu.edu >Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 10:44:26 CST >From: "George D. Greenwade" >What would the group think of a "refereed electronic periodical" for >literate programming[?] In principle I am very interested in this. However, there are some practical problems that need to be considered. First, in what format will the journal be distributed? Considering the subject, surely it would be a frustrating travesty to be limited to a pure ASCII end product. So, do we get LaTeX files? PostScript? Example webs in their original source code? (If so, I need to have every tool -- AWEB, BWEB, CWEB, ... -- installed on my workstation, just to read the journal.) All of the above? >It will be a long time before any major print periodical develops ... Well, if the whole thing gets into PostScript, or even TeX, form, then it will BE a print journal for anybody who chooses to send it through a laser printer. More seriously, if we expect that most readers will be saving trees and reading the journal on a screen previewer, then consideration should be given to making the page shape landscape rather than portrait. (I try to do this myself with preprints I receive electronically, by halving the \vsize, but this often plays havoc with the author's carefully adjusted page layout.) Second, will the editor(s) perform the usual editorial functions of copy editors of print journals, including correcting typographical and grammatical errors and beating everything into a reasonably uniform format? I think this is essential for respectability, for being taken seriously as a "real" journal of high standards. Furthermore, this task is even more important (and difficult) if we have the technological problem of making TeX files compilable on every subscriber's system (see above). But this task (or even the simpler one of sending files back and forth between authors and referees) is horrendous -- a full-time job. At a minimum I think it will require a secretarial-level person full time and a professional-level person half time. So now we need a source of salary money.... Help! Steve Fulling fulling@math.tamu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 22:02:15 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Stefan.Farestam@cerfacs.fr Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Stefan.Farestam@CERFACS.FR Subject: Re: LitProg Review (was Re: What does literate programming mean to Date: 29 Sep 1993 20:55:50 -0500 Message-ID: <9309300159.AA24358@ultima.cerfacs.fr> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU On Wed, 29 Sep 1993 08:24 +0000 (GMT), "Eric W. van Ammers" posted: > > We would like to bundle any sort of "virtual" educational > >activity -- a journal which is unlikely to ever never appear on real > >paper fits in this category. We already have: a list of electronic > >consultants, a collaborative (Hyper-) textbook project, an internet > >meta library, and a virtual campus. > > I like the ida very much, but my mainproblem is the following. Scientists > in a university environment are (at least in my country, Holland) graded > mainly by there so called output, ie. publications in scientific journals. > How likely is it for such an electronic journal to be appreciated on this > level. More precisely, will there be a change that it will be considered > for citation indexes and the like? Just to fuel this debate further (in a positive direction), I'm including below two announcements of electronic journals within the field of numerical analysis. If someone pursues this idea further, which I definitely think should be done, then it might be worth contacting the editors of those journals to maybe gain some valuable insights. Note that both of the journals listed below will also be printed in a small quantity, so as to be available by inter library loans. /Stefan Farestam ----------------------------------------------- From: Lothar Reichel Date: Tue, 11 May 93 16:03:12 EDT Subject: Electronic Transactions on Numerical Analysis Call for Papers Electronic Transactions on Numerical Analysis Scope: Electronic Transactions on Numerical Analysis (ETNA) is an electronic journal for the publication of significant new and important developments in numerical analysis and scientific computing. Papers of the highest quality that deal with the analysis of algorithms for the solution of continuous models and numerical linear algebra are appropriate for ETNA, as are papers of similar quality that discuss implementation and performance of such algorithms. New algorithms for current or new computer architectures are appropriate provided that they are numerically sound. However, the focus of the publication should be on the algorithm rather than on the architecture. The journal is published by the Kent State University Library in conjunction with the Institute of Computational Mathematics at Kent State University. Mathematical Reviews will receive all papers accepted for publication in the journal and review them as appropriate. ETNA is registered with the Library of Congress and has ISSN 1068-9613. Dissemination: On a quarterly basis, accepted manuscripts will be posted in a directory which is publicly accessible through Internet. The titles and abstract of these manuscripts will be e-mailed to registered departments and individuals and posted on public bulletin boards such as NA-digest. An individual who wishes to obtain a copy of a current or back manuscript can get a copy through anonymous FTP or by using a netlib-type mailer. We also plan to install Gopher. All manuscripts will be available in Post Script format. The first issue of ETNA will appear September 1, 1993. Funds made available by the Kent State University Library and the Kent State University make free subscription possible for at least three years. After this time period we may have to charge an annual fee from institutional subscribers. Since the operating costs for the journal are low, we envision that this fee will not be above $100 for institutional subscribers. Everybody at the subscribing institution will have access to ETNA by FTP, a netlib-type mailer or Gopher. In addition, articles in ETNA can be obtained through interlibrary loan from Kent State University Library. To register to receive ETNA's quarterly titles and abstract lists, please send an e-mail message to etna@mcs.kent.edu. The subject of the message should be: ETNA registration. Titles and abstracts of papers published in ETNA will be e-mailed quarterly to the return addresses of all such requests. Inquiries for further information should also be e-mailed to etna@mcs.kent.edu. Submission, Acceptance and Refereeing: Authors will normally submit papers for publication via e-mail, and they will be required to submit their manuscript in LaTeX or TeX using macros we provide. Requests for macros can be sent by e-mail to etna@mcs.kent.edu. All papers will be refereed. As soon as a paper has been accepted for publication in ETNA, it will be entered into the ETNA data base. There are no annual page limitations, and, therefore, we are in a position to publish accepted manuscripts faster than many other journal. Manuscripts can be submitted NOW by sending them to the address etna@mcs.kent.edu. Current Editorial Board: L. Reichel Kent State University editor-in-chief reichel@mcs.kent.edu R.S. Varga Kent State University editor-in-chief varga@mcs.kent.edu A. Ruttan Kent State University managing editor ruttan@mcs.kent.edu G.S. Ammar Northern Illinois University J.W. Demmel University of California, Berkeley J.J. Dongarra University of Tennessee I.S. Duff Rutherford Appleton Laboratory M. Eiermann University of Karlsruhe J.A. George University of Waterloo G.H. Golub Stanford University W.B. Gragg Naval Postgraduate School M.H. Gutknecht Swiss Federal Institute of Technology V. Mehrmann Technical University of Chemnitz-Zwickau D.C. Sorensen Rice University G.W. Stewart University of Maryland O.B. Widlund New York University ------------------------------ From: Julio G. Dix Date: Fri, 14 May 93 10:48 CDT Subject: Electronic Journal of Differential Equations ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF DIFFERENTIAL EQUATIONS. (EJDE) The EJDE is published by Southwest Texas State University and the University of North Texas. This is a strictly electronic journal: Articles are to be submitted and then provided to the mathematical community electronically. SCOPE The EJDE will accept only first-rate original work, subject to as rigid a peer review process as is applied by the finest of today's journals. DISSEMINATION Abstracts of articles will be sent to subscribers as soon as accepted for publication (free of charge). Manuscripts and abstracts will be posted in a directory which is publicly accessible through Internet. Also, the American Mathematical Society will provide access to this journal through the E-math gopher. Manuscripts will be available as TeX files. Which means that your local computer needs TeX processing facilities. Manuscripts can be obtained also as also as DVI or POSTSCRIPT files. Hard copies will be preserved for posterity. The publishers will originate and maintain copies at the libraries of both institutions. Photocopies of articles can be obtained from these libraries using the Interlibrary Loan system. (We are in the process of obtaining the ISSN number.) For information through internet make sure your computer emulates a VT100 terminal and the type telnet ejde.math.unt.edu at the login prompt type "gopher" (without quotations), then select 1 for EJDE and follow the instructions on the screen. EDITORIAL BOARD P. Bates (Brigham Young University) A. Bloch (Ohio State University) J. Bona (Pennsylvania State University) L. Caffarelli (Institute for Advanced Study) C. Castillo-Chavez (Cornell University) C. Chui (Texas A & M University) M. Crandall (University of California at Santa Barbara) E. Di Benedetto (Northwestern University) G. B. Ermentrout (University of Pittsburgh) J. Escobar (Indiana University) L. C. Evans (University of California at Berkeley) J. Goldstein (Louisiana State University) C. Groetsch (University of Cincinnati) I. Herbst (University of Virginia) C. Kenig (University of Chicago) R. Kohn (Courant Institute) A. Lazer (Miami University) J. Neuberger (University of North Texas) P. Rabinowitz (University of Wisconsin) R. Shivaji (Mississippi State University) R. Showalter (University of Texas) H. Smith (Arizona State University) P. Souganidis (University of Wisconsin) N. Walkington (Carnegie-Mellon University) P. Waltman (Emory University) SUBMISSIONS Submissions should be files in one of the following formats: TeX, LaTeX, AMS (LaTeX or TeX). Graphics can be attached using either PicTeX or Postcript. There is no page charge. We are accepting manuscripts NOW; send your files via E-mail to editor@ejde.math.unt.edu Please keep a copy of your submissions; we are not responsible for lost files. COPYRIGHTS By submitting a manuscript the author(s) agree that the copyright of the article is transferred to the publisher if and when the article is accepted for publication. Thanks for your attention and I am looking forward to see your sumissions to the EJDE. Julio G. DiX Department of Mathematics Southwest Texas State University. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 06:22:01 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: cgra@btma74.nohost.nodomain (Chris Gray) Subject: Re: New Math Notation #3107 Message-ID: <2030@se.alcbel.be> Date: 30 Sep 93 09:11:42 GMT Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, cgra@se.alcbel.be To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU In article , ciemjw@sealion.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com (Jon Weygandt) writes: >I new to literate programming, but not engineering and could not >resist jumping in on this topic ... And I said only a day or two ago that I would "shut up", but I can't resist responding... >2 specific examples of where real world engineering notation omit some >very cirtical information necessary for precise implementation, the >information is apparent in the context of how it is used, but even to >the human reader it may not be obvious: > >Vectors: > The standard vector notation does not differentate between >"free vectors" and "bound vectors". This is due to the pernicious influence of Newton's theory of relativity. ;> But if you need to have a "point alpha" in your system then you do what everyone else does, you extend the notation. Bound vectors in upright bold and unbound in sloping bold, perhaps? Or maybe underpin the bound vectors with an underscore or a dot? Then define your algebra: (B = bound, U = unbound, S = scalar (printed in non-bold type)) S + S -> S S - S -> S S * S -> S S / S -> S B + S is invalid B - S is invalid B * S -> B B / S -> B U + S is invalid U - S is invalid U * A -> U U / S -> U B + B is invalid B - B -> U B * B -> S B / B is invalid B + U -> B B - U -> B B * U may or may not be valid, it depends on what vector product means in your application... anyway I hope you get my drift by now. My point is that once you Define Your Notation, mathematics is way more expressive than C or FORTRAN. You could use a language like C++ to enforce this algebra through classes, and you could use some kind of Hungarian notation to incorporate the class of every object into its name, but it doesn't exactly leap out of the page at you, does it? >[...] >Units, Temperatures: > It is standard to apply a simple unit designation after a >number, but in the case of temperature there is a similar concept as >to vectors. There exist actual temperatures of objects "absolute >temperatures" and there exist temperature differences "relative >temperatures". [...] Easy peasy. Use \deg K for absolute temperatures and \deg C for relative. Just remember to Define Your Notation, so we all know what is going on. > Jon Weygandt > > Lockheed Missiles and Space Co. > Sunnyvale CA __________________________________________________________________________ Chris Gray cgra@se.alcbel.be Compu$erve: 100065.2102 Ignore my broken mailer - the addresses above are the only truth __________________________________________________________________________ Alle menschen sind Auslaender. Fast ueberall. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 08:56:49 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: sven@robots.ox.ac.uk (Sven Utcke) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, sven@ROBOTS.OX.AC.UK Subject: cnoweb for LaTeX? Message-ID: <1993Sep30.132122.3154@hotspur.robots.ox.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 13:21:22 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Hi everyone, I wonder if there is something like cnoweb for LaTeX. I think I could sell that to me colleagues and consequently get them hooked on literate programming after a while. Only: There is no way to get ANY of them using plain TeX. So what I need is a LaTeX-version! Thanks Sven ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 08:57:17 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: sven@robots.ox.ac.uk (Sven Utcke) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, sven@ROBOTS.OX.AC.UK Subject: \footnote in FWEB Message-ID: <1993Sep30.132252.3224@hotspur.robots.ox.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 13:22:52 GMT To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Hi everyone, I have a simple question (hope same holds true for the answer): How can I use \footnote in FWEB? Thanks for any help Sven ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 10:00:51 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 15:56 +0000 (GMT) From: "Eric W. van Ammers, LUW, tel: (+31)8370-83356" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, AMMERS@RCL.WAU.NL Subject: CLiP for VAX/VMS To: LITPROG@shsu.edu Message-ID: <01H3KCPH9ZC08ZEZIU@RCL.WAU.NL> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT  CLiP for VAX/VMS A VAX/VMS version of the CLiP system is available by anonymous ftp on sun01.info.wau.nl from the directory /clip/vax_vms Remark that the EXE-files are binaries which should be copied in BINARY mode. All other files can be copied in ASCII mode. For additional information which is not in the READ_ME or MANUAL files please contact me at the address below. Eric van Ammers ============================================================================ Eric W. van Ammers Department of Computer Science Wageningen Agricultural University Dreijenplein 2 E-mail: ammers@rcl.wau.nl 6703 HB Wageningen voice: +31 (0)8370 83356/84154 The Netherlands fax: +31 (0)8370 84731 ============================================================================ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 14:55:03 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: krommes@theory.pppl.gov (John Krommes) Subject: Re: \footnote in FWEB Message-ID: Date: 30 Sep 93 17:56:27 GMT Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Krommes@Princeton.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Sven Utcke writes: >> How can I use \footnote in FWEB? Footnotes may not work properly in FWEB versions through 1.30, which inherited a \output routine from previous authors. This problem is fixed in version 1.40, to be released shortly. This version offers much more faithful LaTeX support, in that the LaTeX \output routine, sectioning commands, etc. are used. -- --- John (Mail to krommes@princeton.edu is forwarded to krommes@lyman.pppl.gov == 198.35.4.70. krommes@princeton.edu Ftp files to/from ftp.pppl.gov, NOT princeton.edu or lyman.pppl.gov.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 15:38:25 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 14:31:29 MDT From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.edu CC: beebe@math.utah.edu Subject: Literate programming bibliography: a plea for contributions Message-ID: The literate programming bibliography stored in the files litprog.* in /pub/tex/bib on ftp.math.utah.edu (via e-mail: "send index from tex/bib" and "help" to tuglib@math.utah.edu) is now at edition 1.30, with 61 entries. In view of the substantially increased activity on this list in the last several months, I suspect that publications have increased as well, so PLEASE SEND ME YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS of new publications about literate programming, after checking that they are not already present in the latest litprog.bib. It will save me time if your contributions are already in BibTeX form, with complete author/editor lists, full titles, page ranges (for journal articles), and publisher/address/year for books. I can usually get ISBN and LCCN (Library of Congress Catalog Number) entries from on-line library catalogs if you cannot supply them. I have utilities for converting UNIX bib/refer entries to BibTeX form, so that format is convenient too. Here is the latest entry (entered yesterday), as an indication of style and contents: @String{pub-MH = "McGraw-Hill"} @String{pub-MH:adr = "New York, NY, USA"} @Book{Gurari:TLD94, author = "Eitan M. Gurari", title = "{\TeX} and {\LaTeX}: Drawing and Literate Programming", publisher = pub-MH, year = "1994", address = pub-MH:adr, bibdate = "Wed Sep 29 17:55:14 1993", acknowledgement = ack-nhfb, } [This book is apparently not yet out, but should soon be. I've asked the author to supply ISBN, LCCN, and price values as soon as they are available.] Each entry carries an acknowledgement key/value pair, so you get a candlepower of lasting glory for your help in keeping this bibliography up-to-date. Only material published in books or refereed journals will normally be included. Technical reports are rarely widely available, and are soon out of print, so I tend to exclude them. However, if they are actively maintained in electronic form, and are Internet-accessible, then they will be included in litprog.bib. ======================================================================== Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 581 4148 Department of Mathematics, 105 JWB Internet: beebe@math.utah.edu University of Utah Salt Lake City, UT 84112, USA ======================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 15:57:54 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: ross@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Ross Williams) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ross@WATTLE.ITD.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU Subject: A C exceptions package written using FunnelWeb. Date: 30 Sep 1993 13:54:50 GMT Message-ID: <28eofa$5p5@huon.itd.adelaide.edu.au> Keywords: literate programming funnelweb c exceptions package To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Dear Literates, One thing that FunnelWeb has lacked since its release is a good example. Now I've written one. I hope you find it of interest either from a literate programming point of view, or simply as a useful C package. Ross. A C Exceptions Package Written Using the FunnelWeb Literate Programming Tool ============================================================================ Date : 29 September 1993. Author : Ross N. Williams (ross@guest.adelaide.edu.au). Snail : 16 Lerwick Avenue, Hazelwood Park 5066, Australia. Phone : +61 8 379-9217 (24 hours). Fax : +61 8 373-4911 (24 hours). Status : This covering document is Copyright (C) Ross Williams, 1993. However, permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of this document provided that this information block and copyright notice is included. ABSTRACT: This document describes the release of a C package that provides Ada-like exceptions for the C programming language. The package is written in a literate style using the FunnelWeb literate programming tool, and so acts not only as a useful C package, but also as an example of a literate program written in a commercial environment. This distribution provides enough dependent files to allow the package to be printed and used without having to install FunnelWeb. Introduction ------------ Since releasing my literate programming tool FunnelWeb over one year ago, I have been aware of the pressing need for an example program written using FunnelWeb. Despite the fact that I have written ALL my code since that time using FunnelWeb, I haven't felt motivated to release any of the code, partly because most of it is proprietary, and partly because I didn't want to have to go through the detail of extracting and shipping the header files upon which the published code would depend. Recently, however, I identified a package that I felt motivated to publish for three reasons. First, it is a package that many C programmers could find extremely useful. Second, it is a tricky package and so it demonstrates very well the benefits of literate programming without in any way being a contrived example. Third, being a low-level package, it does not depend on many other packages or header files (only my style file and a tiny assertions package). For these reasons I have decided to make the package public. I am hoping that the package will not only act as a useful piece of software for C programmers, but will also act as a flagship example for FunnelWeb and literate programming in general. Brief Package Description ------------------------- The package is written in C and provides a very clean and safe implementation of Ada-like exceptions for the C programming language. The package is implemented using the ANSI standard setjmp and longjmp functions. Here is an example of the sort of facility the package provides. The example is contrived, but gives a taste of what the package can do. The first line is the declaration of the exception and appears in the variable declaration section. EX_LOCAL(read_err,"read_err: Error reading an input file."); ... EX_BEGIN while (more_input(input)) { read_file(input,buffer); write_output(output,buffer); } EX_FORGET EX_WHEN(read_err) error_flag = TRUE; fprintf(logfile,"Read error. Aborting read."); file_close(input); EX_END A "Normal" Package ------------------ An important aspect of this publication is that this exceptions package was not in any way "polished" for publication. The exceptions package was chosen because it is a tricky package and demonstrates the use of literate programming well (other, more boring, packages are quite-rightly less-intensely documented). But apart from this aspect, the literate programming style embodied in "except.fw" is representative of the way I normally do programming, and if you looked, you would find a dozen or so similarly-prepared modules in my personal C library. In fact the exceptions package was prepared in a text editor (using FunnelWeb to generate except.h and except.c and ex_test.c) without ever generating except.tex, or printing or previewing the typeset documentation at all. The only concession made to publication was that just before publication, I typeset and printed except.tex once (just to make sure that the whole document wasn't set in italics or something :-) and subsequently corrected 23 minor grammatical and spelling errors in the documentation parts of the document before shipping. This exception package and other packages like it were constructed as part of the development of a commercial product which my company Rocksoft^tm Pty Ltd intends to release "real soon now". Thus, this exceptions package represents the practical use of FunnelWeb in a real commercial environment. How To Print The Package ------------------------ To print the package, FTP the file "except.tex" OR "except.ps" from ftp.adelaide.edu.au/pub/funnelweb/examples/except.tex (or .ps) and print out a copy of the FunnelWeb-prepared documentation. The document is 43 pages long (the actual code is much shorter). If you like what you read, you can then FTP the other files from the same directory and start using the package. You don't need FunnelWeb to print or use the package, as I have done all the FunnelWeb processing for you. The C package itself is embodied in except.h and except.c which in turn require style.h and as.h and as.c. All of these files are supplied. FunnelWeb itself is available in "ftp.adelaide.edu.au/pub/funnelweb/". Portability ----------- So far I have only compiled and tested this package on a Macintosh using THINK C. However, I expect it to be fairly portable, as I have become very aware of portability issues in the last few years, and this sensitivity should manifest itself in the code. If you do decide to FTP and compile the source code for the exceptions package, even if you do encounter one or two portability problems, the test suite provided in ex_test.c will provide assurance that the package is working. Summary of Files ---------------- The following table describes the files in the distribution. Each file is either "Source" (i.e. hand written) or was generated from another file. "except.h", "except.c", "ex_text.c", and "except.tex" were all generated by applying FunnelWeb to the file "except.fw" using the command "fw except -t". "except.ps" was generated from "except.tex" using TeX and a .dvi-to-PostScript conversion program (OzTeX/OzTeX in this case). Although the exceptions package is basically self-contained in except.fw, the code it generates is written using my normal C style and so is dependent on two external packages: my assertions package (as) and my style header file. Instead of incorporating these packages into the exceptions package, I have chosen to provide stripped down versions of these support files with the exceptions package. These two packages provide a few minor stylistic definitions. I decided not to ship FunnelWebized forms of these files because 1) I didn't want to detract attention from the main exception package, 2) they were big and messy and only part of them was required, 3) they were remenants from the non-FunnelWebized FunnelWeb source code itself, and for this reason have so far eluded FunnelWebization in my C library (i.e. FunnelWebized forms don't yet exist :-). +------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Gen From | File Description | +------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Source | 0README - This summary file. | | Source | as.c - Assertion package implementation file. | | Source | as.h - Assertion package specification file. | | except.fw | except.c - Exceptions package implementation file. | | Source | except.fw - FunnelWeb source file for exceptions package. | | except.fw | except.h - Exceptions package specification file. | | except.tex | except.ps - PostScript file with typeset form of except.fw | | except.fw | except.tex - TeX file containing a typeset form of except.fw. | | except.fw | ex_test.c - Test program for the exceptions package. | | Source | style.h - Style header file. | +------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+ ----